Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: robbo1874 on November 02, 2014, 11:06:57 AM
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why can't we win any games at home?
I first started going as a young kid around '79. Admittedly I didn't go to every game, but I just used to take for granted we'd win at home. I think it was about 1984 I first saw us lose at home and the feeling was one of utter disbelief!
A young kid going to villa these days would more likely than not see us lose.
What's gone wrong at home for Villa?
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It is cumulative. Games at home have become steadily poorer in quality and failure breeds failure. It is a vicious circle. The crowd, today being a typical example, will be on edge and it gets to the players who start to freeze. I think it started with all seater stadiums. Back in the day when 60,000 plus were rammed into Villa Park the atmosphere was unbelievable. You could hear the crowd from Brum city centre. Villa Park is a very tame place these days. The last time it showed its mettle was when McLeish got his marching orders.
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This 'back in the day' is all well and good but we haven't benn getting regular massive attendances since the 40s. I agree with seating being the big problem but an angry crowd is an angry crowd. We seem to be labelled as being quiet - see Heskey - but I disagree with that. i think that's just something he expereinced. i remember reading either on an SHA thread or letters from one of our lot bemoaning their lack of action a few years back and saying that (and I'm paraphrasing), "The might be a bunch of fannies but would you see this happening at Villa. They criticise all the time when things aren't going well and get things changed."
To a point I agree with that. Pound signs, Leighton flags, McLeish chants...when we've turned we turn and I don't think that has much to do with seats. I think it's just a bigger bubble of apathy at the moment because we wanted and expected this to be better. Plus we don't want more turmoil and don't trust lerner to appoint well. But, the bubble will pop and it could very well be today. A 1-1 draw is not going to help either way.. A win and we'll see where we go from there, a bad defeat and it will be ugly.
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why can't we win any games at home?
I first started going as a young kid around '79. Admittedly I didn't go to every game, but I just used to take for granted we'd win at home. I think it was about 1984 I first saw us lose at home and the feeling was one of utter disbelief!
A young kid going to villa these days would more likely than not see us lose.
What's gone wrong at home for Villa?
It's always been the same. Our home form has outperformed our league position about six times in forty years.
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Didn't we finish 6th around 83 or 84 with an away record of something like 3 wins?
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I first went in 1979 as well, I went to a fair amount of home games but whenever we happened to lose at Villa Park I wasn't there. I saw us lose at home to Dynamo Berlin but we went through on away goals so it didn't quite count. Then at Xmas 1982 I saw us lose 4-2 at home to an excellent Liverpool side and it felt like the end of the world!
BTW, in 1982/83, despite us only finishing 6th and that great Villa side were on the slide, we still won 17 out of our 21 home league matches.
The opposite is now true where we'll lose or not win the majority and very occasionally win.
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I wonder if teams enjoy playing at Villa park too much,it's better than Wembley. Big classy ground might spur them on. Oh and actually showing attacking intent
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I wonder if teams enjoy playing at Villa park too much,it's better than Wembley. Big classy ground might spur them on. Oh and actually showing attacking intent
Yes. Look at how many players say they love playing there.
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In me and my contemporaries you have eye witnesses to what Villa Park is like now and what it was like pre Taylor.
It was awesome, even in the 50s and 60s on occasion. I was home on leave from the forces so it would be about 57-58 we had a game against Man U which ended 3-3. Full house, electrifying stuff. That was the game I got a photo of Villa fans climbing the outside of the Holte End to get in.
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To be fair there are many occasions in the 50s and 60s when there wasn't a ground crammed full of supporters. Sitting down may have changed the atmosphere but I don't think it has changed the hostility towards managers. maybe tempered it, but just as sitting down may quieten people then standing may present faux rage.
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Our home form has rarely gone above average in my time.
Working backwards this is our number of home wins each season (yes i'm bored).
6 (2013/14)
5
4
8
8
7
10
7
6
8
9
11 (SGT2)
8
8
8
10
9
11
11 (95/96)
6 (all below are from 21 home games)
8
13 (start of PL)
13
7 (19 games)
13 (19 games)
7 (19 games)
9 (Div 2 22 games)
7 (21 games from here down)
7
10
14
17
9 (1982)
16 (1981)
11
8
11
17 (1977)
11
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Great yarn Brian.
These days you'd probably get a photo of villa fans trying to climb out of the holte end unfortunately.
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In me and my contemporaries you have eye witnesses to what Villa Park is like now and what it was like pre Taylor.
It was awesome, even in the 50s and 60s on occasion. I was home on leave from the forces so it would be about 57-58 we had a game against Man U which ended 3-3. Full house, electrifying stuff. That was the game I got a photo of Villa fans climbing the outside of the Holte End to get in.
In 1956-57 we lost 2- 1 to them in front of 42,530. In 1958-59 we lost by the same score on Boxing Day and the crowd was 63,098. In the season between, we beat them 3-1. The gate, with the cup-winners versus league champions factor, a few weeks after Munich, was 16,631. I don't know about other clubs but our crowds even then went up and down on a regular basis.
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In me and my contemporaries you have eye witnesses to what Villa Park is like now and what it was like pre Taylor.
It was awesome, even in the 50s and 60s on occasion. I was home on leave from the forces so it would be about 57-58 we had a game against Man U which ended 3-3. Full house, electrifying stuff. That was the game I got a photo of Villa fans climbing the outside of the Holte End to get in.
In my time pre-Taylor, VP was often well over half empty with no atmosphere. And sometimes it was pretty rammed with a great atmosphere.
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I've never agreed with the old maxim that promoted teams and those fighting relegation must "win your home games". As seen with that list above and over the seasons clubs home records are usually quite similar. Winning your away games is far more important. You get 6 or 7 of them minimum a season and you shouldn't be going down.
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In me and my contemporaries you have eye witnesses to what Villa Park is like now and what it was like pre Taylor.
It was awesome, even in the 50s and 60s on occasion. I was home on leave from the forces so it would be about 57-58 we had a game against Man U which ended 3-3. Full house, electrifying stuff. That was the game I got a photo of Villa fans climbing the outside of the Holte End to get in.
In 1956-57 we lost 2- 1 to them in front of 42,530. In 1958-59 we lost by the same score on Boxing Day and the crowd was 63,098. In the season between, we beat them 3-1. The gate, with the cup-winners versus league champions factor, a few weeks after Munich, was 16,631. I don't know about other clubs but our crowds even then went up and down on a regular basis.
In 56/57 we finished 10th and did something else, can't remember what. Our highest league attendance was 54,862. Our lowest was 8,252. Also that season 46,246 v Blackpool, 10,554 v Man City.
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Best times for me was Man U Boxing Day and arsenal New Year's Day. Ground packed to the rafters and looking like we could be contenders.
I can't recall any great moments against spurs at home, but I'm sure I've seen us turn them over a few times at villa park. They just used to be a side you'd expect 3 points off.
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In me and my contemporaries you have eye witnesses to what Villa Park is like now and what it was like pre Taylor.
It was awesome, even in the 50s and 60s on occasion. I was home on leave from the forces so it would be about 57-58 we had a game against Man U which ended 3-3. Full house, electrifying stuff. That was the game I got a photo of Villa fans climbing the outside of the Holte End to get in.
In 1956-57 we lost 2- 1 to them in front of 42,530. In 1958-59 we lost by the same score on Boxing Day and the crowd was 63,098. In the season between, we beat them 3-1. The gate, with the cup-winners versus league champions factor, a few weeks after Munich, was 16,631. I don't know about other clubs but our crowds even then went up and down on a regular basis.
In 56/57 we finished 10th and did something else, can't remember what. Our highest league attendance was 54,862. Our lowest was 8,252. Also that season 46,246 v Blackpool, 10,554 v Man City.
A lot of those low crowds were midweek afternoons (before floodlights) but there are still some incredible swings. In 1955-56 our first five gates were 25k, 26k, 57k, 53k, 27k.
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I just think Villa Park is too nice a ground for away teams to visit. They get treated like royalty, have fantastic facilities behind the scenes and then we are very rarely intimidating as a set of fans. And that's before you take the quality of the players on the pitch...
It must be a great place to come and visit.
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I believe the scale of history seems to put a lot of players off. The Emirates or the Etihad look very nice and modern, but they're identikit places where all the stands look the same. You come out of the tunnel at Villa and see the scale of the Holte End, and it's staggering. It should be a privilege to ply your trade on the Villa Park pitch; instead, it looks like a burden.
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This could be part of the reason:
http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/oct/29/pochettino-pitch-size-does-matter
There was a list in the Mail the other day that had us, Man. City and Man. United as the three biggest pitches in the league. The likes of Chelsea and Spurs had pitches that were 3-5 yards smaller in area than we did.
I don't see it as an advantage to have a big pitch when we're horrible in possession and don't really play with wingers anymore like in the MON days. We weren't great at home back then either but at least we did batter a few teams a season, Bolton used to annually come here and plant their defence on the halfway line for some bizzare reason.
Danny Murphy said on MOTD last season when asked about our poor home form he always like playing at VP due to the big pitch. Dean Ashton on Talksport the other night was talking about the size aswell.
Other than that it's what others are saying, opposition teams like playing here. Man. United, Liverpool and Arsenal have ridiculous longstanding winning records here so they never are fearful of defeat when they turn up here as long as they play properly unlike saying going to somewhere like Stoke.
That and we never believe we're going to win at home with any regularity, even after 4 points from Newcastle and Hull which was a decent start we just can't build on it and get some momentum going.
Stoke and West Ham both lost their first two home games this season. Stoke responded with 7 points from 9 and West Ham have won their last three, both will be close to 10 home wins this season.
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On a completely unrelated note, after putting an end to a couple of years of season tickets in the Lower North, I sat in the Upper Trinity yesterday near the Holte End. It surprised me just how loud the Holte End can be. Really enjoyed that, as you do not notice it at all in the North.
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Apparently the worst atmosphere in the Prem!!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/picturegalleries/11204948/Ranking-the-atmospheres-at-the-20-Premier-League-grounds-by-Jim-White.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/picturegalleries/11204948/Ranking-the-atmospheres-at-the-20-Premier-League-grounds-by-Jim-White.html)
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I wonder if teams enjoy playing at Villa park too much,it's better than Wembley. Big classy ground might spur them on. Oh and actually showing attacking intent
Yes. Look at how many players say they love playing there.
I think you've made this point before and it's a good one.
For much of our history the ground has been far more impressive than the team that plays there.
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It's by Jim White, enough said. Summed up by Stoke being second best atmosphere. The place was morgue like opening day of the season.
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The atmosphere certainly changed with the new Trinity Rd stand opening. I've sat there a few times and the dead quiet creeped me out.
And when the Holte End starts singing the Prawn Cocktail Brigade in the new Trinity seem to get all nervous and wonder what that noise is all about....
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On a completely unrelated note, after putting an end to a couple of years of season tickets in the Lower North, I sat in the Upper Trinity yesterday near the Holte End. It surprised me just how loud the Holte End can be. Really enjoyed that, as you do not notice it at all in the North.
There were a couple of times yesterday when the noise in The Holte really took hold. The first was the exceptionally loud rendition of Holte Enders in the Sky that followed the minutes silence for Remembrance. That was genuinely a bit of a goosebumps moment for me.
Hearing the Holte in full voice, even briefly yesterday, was a nice reminder of why I bother. It feels great to be part of that when it happens.
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Best times for me was Man U Boxing Day and arsenal New Year's Day. Ground packed to the rafters and looking like we could be contenders.
I can't recall any great moments against spurs at home, but I'm sure I've seen us turn them over a few times at villa park. They just used to be a side you'd expect 3 points off.
Dion x2 sticks out for me. They were always a side that you could measure how well your season was going against. Having a good season and playing well, we'd invariably beat them (especially at their place). Everton used to be the same.
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It's by Jim White, enough said. Summed up by Stoke being second best atmosphere. The place was morgue like opening day of the season.
Most grounds are like that now aren't they? Saying that, the atmosphere at some of the games towards the end of Lambert's first season (QPR and Sunderland) were as good as I've experienced at Villa Park for a league game.
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I think a lot of it has to do with teams enjoying playing there. The good quality footballing teams like it because of the pitch or it being an attractive ground, and the smaller clubs who come to frustrate us enjoy it as the pressure of the crowd can sometimes get to us. Think it has been a problem more recently too because of how young the squad has been, and because our style of play is just better suited away from home.
I do love VP and would never change it for the world but yeah since I have followed the club we certainly seem to struggle more there than on our travels.
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The huge open space that is the New Trinity certainly does not help. Nice Pitch, Passive supporters, in some ways it does not help having the most vocal the furthest away from the pitch. Get the guys at the back of the Holte in the middle of the Trinity.
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I am racking my brains now to remember that 3 3 game when I was home on leave from the army in the 50s. Apart from the massive crowd, the score and the atmosphere all I recall is that my mom and dad had gone up in the world and moved from Greet to Hall Green while I was in Germany (hiding from me?) it was very cold and I walked down Fox Hollies Rd and caught the 44 bus in Acocks Green to Dale End. I was just as superstitious in those days and always had to catch the 44 bus to games. Perhaps it was not Man U, some other contemptible outfit.
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Used to love it in the 70s when the old Trinity seating would start singing - happened about once a game - not a peep these days (apart from moaning)
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Something I enjoyed was the Wigan 1-1 game in 2010/11. Crap game, with 10 or 15 mins to go the ground was morgue like. There was a bunch of kids near the back of the Upper Trinity, i'm assuming on a group trip, and they started singing and never stopped. Just the simple "Villa" clapclapclap "Villa" clapclapclap and so on. They never stopped and more and more of the UT joined in and you could see the Lower North and Holte looking and wondering what the fuck was going on before joining in, and for once during a shit game we actually had an atmosphere. At the end of the game I saw them on the concourse and they were happy and smiling etc and had really enjoyed themselves. The club should have given them tickets to every game.
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I am racking my brains now to remember that 3 3 game when I was home on leave from the army in the 50s. Apart from the massive crowd, the score and the atmosphere all I recall is that my mom and dad had gone up in the world and moved from Greet to Hall Green while I was in Germany (hiding from me?) it was very cold and I walked down Fox Hollies Rd and caught the 44 bus in Acocks Green to Dale End. I was just as superstitious in those days and always had to catch the 44 bus to games. Perhaps it was not Man U, some other contemptible outfit.
According to the Tony Matthews (so not exactly infallible) Complete Record we didn't have a 3-3 at home throughout the fifties. We drew 4-4 with Manchester United in 1955-56 but the gate was only 29,478. The following year we lost 3-1 to them in front of 42,530.
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We drew 3-3 at home to Manure 20/9/52. Lockhart, Pace, Roberts in front of 43,490.
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We drew 3-3 at home to Manure 20/9/52. Lockhart, Pace, Roberts in front of 43,490.
So we did. My mistake.
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Used to love it in the 70s when the old Trinity seating would start singing - happened about once a game - not a peep these days (apart from moaning)
And banging their feet on the old wooden stand Villa....bang bang bang....used to give me goosebumps!!
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Used to love it in the 70s when the old Trinity seating would start singing - happened about once a game - not a peep these days (apart from moaning)
And banging their feet on the old wooden stand Villa....bang bang bang....used to give me goosebumps!!
I was going to mention that Duncan! I started being taken on my dad's shoulders in the Trinity enclosure in the late 60s and the stamping of feet on the stand above when we had a corner or free kick was fantastic.
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Yes, DS.
The cup game against Leeds in 2000 was the last time I experienced the Trinity Stamp.
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It's by Jim White, enough said. Summed up by Stoke being second best atmosphere. The place was morgue like opening day of the season.
And Everton and Liverpool are poor, though the latter does rock for big games.
West Ham is overrated for me too - not a noisy ground at all.
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We drew 3-3 at home to Manure 20/9/52. Lockhart, Pace, Roberts in front of 43,490.
Isn't that the name of the law firm in The Good Wife?
Bit niche, I know, but worth a punt.
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Something I enjoyed was the Wigan 1-1 game in 2010/11. Crap game, with 10 or 15 mins to go the ground was morgue like. There was a bunch of kids near the back of the Upper Trinity, i'm assuming on a group trip, and they started singing and never stopped. Just the simple "Villa" clapclapclap "Villa" clapclapclap and so on. They never stopped and more and more of the UT joined in and you could see the Lower North and Holte looking and wondering what the fuck was going on before joining in, and for once during a shit game we actually had an atmosphere. At the end of the game I saw them on the concourse and they were happy and smiling etc and had really enjoyed themselves. The club should have given them tickets to every game.
Similarly, there was a game against - I think - Bolton in - I think - the first MON season, think it was a Saturday night match, shit sub 30k crowd, and there were some blokes in that funny executive bit between the Trinity and Holte who started acting as cheerleaders to get some atmosphere going.
That may, or may not, have been the same match in which we had our one and only experiment with after-goal music.
I am not sure if that was the fixture, I forget, but what I won't forget is the sheer, utter fucking horror and embarassment of hearing the PA blaring "Chelsea Dagger" by the Fratellis after we'd scored.
I remember that evening, General Krulak fighting off an almighty wave of complaints.
It never happened again.
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In me and my contemporaries you have eye witnesses to what Villa Park is like now and what it was like pre Taylor.
It was awesome, even in the 50s and 60s on occasion. I was home on leave from the forces so it would be about 57-58 we had a game against Man U which ended 3-3. Full house, electrifying stuff. That was the game I got a photo of Villa fans climbing the outside of the Holte End to get in.
In 1956-57 we lost 2- 1 to them in front of 42,530. In 1958-59 we lost by the same score on Boxing Day and the crowd was 63,098. In the season between, we beat them 3-1. The gate, with the cup-winners versus league champions factor, a few weeks after Munich, was 16,631. I don't know about other clubs but our crowds even then went up and down on a regular basis.
In 56/57 we finished 10th and did something else, can't remember what. Our highest league attendance was 54,862. Our lowest was 8,252. Also that season 46,246 v Blackpool, 10,554 v Man City.
A lot of those low crowds were midweek afternoons (before floodlights) but there are still some incredible swings. In 1955-56 our first five gates were 25k, 26k, 57k, 53k, 27k.
Dullard that I am I have worked out that the 16K game v Man Utd in 1958 took place on a Monday, not a Bank Holiday either. Presumably re-arranged in the wake of Munich.
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I read recently that playing at home is less of an advantage than it used to be. Villa are proof - we're shit everywhere we play.
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Dullard that I am I have worked out that the 16K game v Man Utd in 1958 took place on a Monday, not a Bank Holiday either. Presumably re-arranged in the wake of Munich.
Possibly, or it could have been re-arranged due to cup commitments, or even postponed because of the weather. I don;t know why we played our midweek games on Mondays, but I know a man who almost certainly does.
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Similarly, there was a game against - I think - Bolton in - I think - the first MON season, think it was a Saturday night match, shit sub 30k crowd, and there were some blokes in that funny executive bit between the Trinity and Holte who started acting as cheerleaders to get some atmosphere going.
Those were Steamers and Hardcore weren't they?
Having a day out in the community ;-)
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This could be part of the reason:
http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/oct/29/pochettino-pitch-size-does-matter
There was a list in the Mail the other day that had us, Man. City and Man. United as the three biggest pitches in the league. The likes of Chelsea and Spurs had pitches that were 3-5 yards smaller in area than we did.
I don't see it as an advantage to have a big pitch when we're horrible in possession and don't really play with wingers anymore like in the MON days. We weren't great at home back then either but at least we did batter a few teams a season, Bolton used to annually come here and plant their defence on the halfway line for some bizzare reason.
Danny Murphy said on MOTD last season when asked about our poor home form he always like playing at VP due to the big pitch. Dean Ashton on Talksport the other night was talking about the size aswell.
Other than that it's what others are saying, opposition teams like playing here. Man. United, Liverpool and Arsenal have ridiculous longstanding winning records here so they never are fearful of defeat when they turn up here as long as they play properly unlike saying going to somewhere like Stoke.
That and we never believe we're going to win at home with any regularity, even after 4 points from Newcastle and Hull which was a decent start we just can't build on it and get some momentum going.
Stoke and West Ham both lost their first two home games this season. Stoke responded with 7 points from 9 and West Ham have won their last three, both will be close to 10 home wins this season.
if the size of the pitch is such a problem we can always make it smaller. You can't make it bigger, but you can bring in the touch lines if you want to make it smaller ffs.