Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: UK Redsox on May 06, 2014, 10:00:53 AM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27289819
A new competition for Premier League and Championship clubs to field B teams will be considered by the Football Association on Wednesday.
It has been proposed that the teams could play in a league sandwiched between League Two and the Conference.
Another option is to merge League Two and the Conference with the B teams to form two regional leagues.
The proposals are part of FA chairman Greg Dyke's commission on the future of the national team.
It is understood that the Premier League and Football League clubs are broadly in favour of the B team concept, which would be predominantly made up of homegrown players, but have reservations about how it might fit into the pyramid and the knock-on effects to other leagues and competitions.
One question is whether current League Two clubs would be relegated into the Conference or the new B team league if they went down. The other difficult issue is how far could B teams be promoted?
The top clubs' "B" teams would be far too strong for League 2 / Conference, wouldn't they ?
I dread to think what Man City reserves would do to Bristol Rovers
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An utterly fucking ludicrous proposal. Hopefully the Football League will tell the Premier League where to go.
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Be a lot easier to merge it with the Scottish Premier I would've thought.
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A new competition for Premier League and Championship clubs to field B teams will be considered by the Football Association on Wednesday
Does the Central League still exist? if so, why the need for a new reserve league?
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Oh great... More football.
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Greg Dyke is a class one prick.At the meeting tomorrow the new boy in class Faulkner should tell him he is talking bollocks.
Doesn't Dyke realise this would only be good for the clubs with a squad of 300.
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Having read the full article, basically it's a good idea IF it stays as a home grown players league.
This system is already in use in Spain, Italy, Germany etc. the problem is trying to shoe horn it into our pyramid system.
If it does happen I can imagine the likes of Kiddie Harriers will be mightily pissed off.
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Thatt not quite true for Germany. Here, several 1. Bundesliga clubs' B-teams play in the lower divisions. They don't have their own dedicated league though. They get promoted and demoted but aren't allowed to play in the same division as the first team.
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If nothing else it's a tacit admission that the loan system isn't working.
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A new competition for Premier League and Championship clubs to field B teams will be considered by the Football Association on Wednesday
Does the Central League still exist? if so, why the need for a new reserve league?
Reserve team football buggered off one or two seasons ago. I think the nearest current equivalent is the U21 league with one of two over aged players allowed.
It could work but will take awhile to get in. I believe the other countries B teams are mostly youth teams or people coming back from long term injury. I don't know if you can move players between it or whether they have to stay into that team for the season. Also how does it work for newer teams who do not have the squad to support it? Do Levante have a B team?
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The answer to your question about Levante is yes, but they don't seem to be very good.
http://www.futbol24.com/team/Spain/Levante-B/
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The answer to your question about Levante is yes, but they don't seem to be very good.
http://www.futbol24.com/team/Spain/Levante-B/
Now there's a "B" team that I think Bristol Rovers could beat
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I am not so sure this is such a bad thing. I would like us to have a reserve or B side playing at a really decent level. One of the biggest issues we have in my opinion is moving promising youth to the first team, and the loan system only works in some circumstances. A reserve team playing at a genuine competitive level would allow young players to get first team football much sooner and possibly develop much more rounded games earlier, benefiting the national side and Villa. We need to find a way of improving the current system and it clearly has benefits in Spain and Germany.
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The 'B' system isn't used in Italy.
I don't see how it fits into the pyramid without unnecessarily complicating things and I agree with Damon's comment in relation to the loan system. The problem is that there are teams that are hoarding players, to the detriment of their development. That is where the FA should be looking at intervening. Allowing B teams just caters to the needs of the teams with the most money, as always.
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Possibly, but just because it has always been this structure does not mean it is the right way. Adding the allowance for B teams does not seem such a difficult thing to me. Structured properly it could be used to stop some of the loan madness that happens at the moment.
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I am not so sure this is such a bad thing. I would like us to have a reserve or B side playing at a really decent level.
I imagine it would be a very positive thing for big clubs, but probably the sort of thing that will mean a lot more smaller clubs ceasing to exist.
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Why can't we just have a high quality, well covered reserve league (like the Women's super league) instead of messing up the system we have in place at the moment? I think the fact we have such competitive and interesting lower leagues is brilliant. I accept that having a to - the -wire title race in League Two doesn't win us world cups, but it does give us a proper football system that other countries envy. To increase interest in the reserve league, all games should be played on a particular night, so that it becomes embedded in the Football community. Live reserve football on ITV on a Wednesday night would give the FA what they want - also, young talents would be snapped up by 'big' clubs. And before anyone says that young players need to play with older players, they would do - reserve teams have just as many young talents as they do experienced but past - it players.
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The critical bit for me is how the 'B' team pricniple can be kept free of cheap foreign players getting acclimatised to English football. As a mechanism for young British players it could have some merits.
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Why can't we just have a high quality, well covered reserve league (like the Women's super league) instead of messing up the system we have in place at the moment? I think the fact we have such competitive and interesting lower leagues is brilliant. I accept that having a to - the -wire title race in League Two doesn't win us world cups, but it does give us a proper football system that other countries envy. To increase interest in the reserve league, all games should be played on a particular night, so that it becomes embedded in the Football community. Live reserve football on ITV on a Wednesday night would give the FA what they want - also, young talents would be snapped up by 'big' clubs. And before anyone says that young players need to play with older players, they would do - reserve teams have just as many young talents as they do experienced but past - it players.
Totally agree with the bit in bold.
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An utterly fucking ludicrous proposal. Hopefully the Football League will tell the Premier League where to go.
Yes. Normally I agree with your posts on this one I agree more.
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Once again the FA is allowing the tail to wag the dog. A better idea would be placing a maximum number on the first team squad size and sort out the farce that is the loan system. Unfortunately the top clubs won't want either of those, so their vested interests will prevail.
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Assuming they solve the problem of where to put these! B teams I can see a number of issues.
Do we only allow Premier league teams to do it? If so what happens to a B team when the 1st team is relegated? But if everyone is allowed a B team then that's potentially 92 new teams to find a home for.
If the B team is never allowed in the same division as the A team then how motivated will a side be knowing they can't get promoted? Or worse still, they know a demotion is likely because the A team is odds on to be relegated from the division above. Or the B team wins the championship and the A team gets relegated from the Prem. So the Championship winners end up being relegated.
What happens if the B teams start to accumulate in the Championship. We could have a competition where half the division can't be promoted. You might get the team coming 10th going up. And teams finishing lower than that going into the playoffs.
The whole thing could be farcical. It would kill the lower leagues. Our national team is important but not at the expense of proper competition throughout the pyramid.
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Assuming they solve the problem of where to put these! B teams I can see a number of issues.
Do we only allow Premier league teams to do it? If so what happens to a B team when the 1st team is relegated? But if everyone is allowed a B team then that's potentially 92 new teams to find a home for.
If the B team is never allowed in the same division as the A team then how motivated will a side be knowing they can't get promoted? Or worse still, they know a demotion is likely because the A team is odds on to be relegated from the division above. Or the B team wins the championship and the A team gets relegated from the Prem. So the Championship winners end up being relegated.
What happens if the B teams start to accumulate in the Championship. We could have a competition where half the division can't be promoted. You might get the team coming 10th going up. And teams finishing lower than that going into the playoffs.
The whole thing could be farcical. It would kill the lower leagues. Our national team is important but not at the expense of proper competition throughout the pyramid.
Completely agree with the bold. To me, League 2 is more important than the national side.
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Once again the FA is allowing the tail to wag the dog. A better idea would be placing a maximum number on the first team squad size and sort out the farce that is the loan system. Unfortunately the top clubs won't want either of those, so their vested interests will prevail.
I agree completely with this.
The clubs picking up the most money are determined to pick up more and more, nevermind the detrimental effects upon the rest and the authorities are seemingly incapable of stopping them. Well, let them have their money, but limit squad size to 24 players and don't allow loans within the same division. Try and do the treble - or even the double - then. That would be a real achievement.
I would only allow one substitue as well.
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Worst. Idea. Ever.
It will kill off a whole load of lower division clubs. How can you just create a new division of reserve teams, you are effectively relegating every club in non-league down another step of the pyramid.
LeeS has highlighted most of the other issues.
England is almost unique in World football in having a thriving pyramid down to and beyond the Conference, gates in the Conference compare with leagues at level 3 (League One) across Europe, some clubs at Level 8 (Southern and Northern Premier Leagues) can pull in 3-500 regularly, this is at a level which would be parks football in most other countries.
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What happens if the B teams start to accumulate in the Championship. We could have a competition where half the division can't be promoted. You might get the team coming 10th going up. And teams finishing lower than that going into the playoffs.
Keeprighton gets excited on reading this bit as it means that there is a chance of Blose returning to the Premier League in the future after all.
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To me, League 2 is more important than the national side.
Yep.
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The critical bit for me is how the 'B' team pricniple can be kept free of cheap foreign players getting acclimatised to English football. As a mechanism for young British players it could have some merits.
Non-EU players could be prevented from playing but I don't see why EU players can't take part.
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To me, League 2 is more important than the national side.
Yep.
Thirded
The Gloucestershire Northern Senior League is more important than the England national team.
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I now know this is a shit idea. Liverpool and Manure fans at work are claiming it is brilliant.
In my opinion, it is worse than the 39th game.
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I now know this is a shit idea. Liverpool and Manure fans at work are claiming it is brilliant.
In my opinion, it is worse than the 39th game.
This
To me, League 2 is more important than the national side.
Yep.
Thirded
The Gloucestershire Northern Senior League is more important than the England national team.
And this.
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I now know this is a shit idea. Liverpool and Manure fans at work are claiming it is brilliant.
In my opinion, it is worse than the 39th game.
This
To me, League 2 is more important than the national side.
Yep.
Thirded
The Gloucestershire Northern Senior League is more important than the England national team.
And this.
And this.
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^^^^And that
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Ruardean Hill Rangers > England
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Dykes speech to the FA to be broadcast live on 5Live at 2pm today.
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I think the argument that ‘it works in other countries so why not here’ singularly misses the point about the structure of football in the UK. Last year they introduced B Teams to the Dutch second division. The reasons behind it were allow the youth players to develop and add a bit of spice to watching clubs like my local club, as Jong Ajax comes to town. Now that’s fine given that the average attendance in the Dutch second division is under 2000 and that most Jupiler League clubs are ill-equipped and ill-prepared for the Eredivisie. But in England we have a healthy promotion and relegation system and well attended game, all the way into lower reaches, so it’s simply ludicrous to introduce a raft of teams into an already functioning system.
As with all things regarding English football these days, behind the smokescreen nonsense of looking to promote the national team, this is just about the fact the that big clubs are not getting benefit they want out of the loan system and thus wish to crowbar their reserves into the lower leagues. No doubt they will sell it with guff like they did here such as ‘Come and spot the future Cruijff.’
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Da Beeb
The creation of a new tier within the Football League to accommodate Premier League B teams is at the heart of the Football Association commission's four-point plan to boost English football.
The review also calls for a ban on non-EU players outside of the top flight and a reduction in non-home-grown players in Premier League squads.
It also wants to develop "strategic loan partnerships" between clubs.
The suggestions come as a response to a lack of available English talent.
In the 2012-13 Premier League season, only 32% of starters qualified to play for England, compared to 69% 20 years ago. The figure was 28% among the top four clubs that season.
The exhaustive review by the commission, headed up by FA chairman Greg Dyke, aims to restore the amount of English players within the Premier League to 45% by 2022.
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It's a right sham. All this talk about it being for the good of the national team is rubbish. They are bound by EU employment law and they know it; they continuously mention non-EU blah, blah. How long would it take before the first 'B' team was put out consisting only of players born in other EU countries? The Arsenal wouldn't make it to their tenth fixture before they'd done it.
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Don't forget that none of this is policy yet, the FA will debate it and then.............debate it some more.
To paraphrase what Howard Wilkinson said, the FA are very good at debating but not very good at getting anything done.
So I wont be holding my breath.
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Can we enter our Bomb Squad in the league?
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Can we enter our Bomb Squad in the league?
Don't see why not, it starts with a B.
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I cant wait to see the details. Because this just sounds like a terrible idea. Although, I would be happy to be convinced otherwise.
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Anybody know what they mean by home grown or do they mean Chelsea home grown?
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This news could be bad for the likes of Small Heath if it were to happen.
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Listened to Greg Dykes on Talkshite on way home - dont normally agree with Adrian Durham but he had a pop at Dykes as he was spouting no end of nonsense about the suggestion of a B League - one clause /suggestion is that Premier League "bribes" Conference clubs to accepting the proposal "because they need the money".
Also you could have a scenario where 10 B Teams finish in top 10 of League 1 - because they would not be allowed promotion to the Championship the team finishing 11th would get automatic promotion.
Well thought out eh?
Why not just bring back the Central League?
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We're fielding a B team as it is.
We'd have to enter our C team in the B league and it's just going to get confusing.
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The B league is drawing all the news, but does anyone know what strategic loan partnerships are?
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Is this just so Sky Sports 4 get some material to show ? Either way I don't like the sound of it.
Imagine simultaneous relegation battles in both leagues !
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Why don't they just cut the subs back to 3, that way players have to move to play, clubs wont need squads of 30 odd players. Bloke I work with used to play for WBA and he says lads today are called youngsters and are making debuts at 21 he had played nearly 200 games by then!!!
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Dyke and his colleagues don't know their arse from their elbow.
Crap idea which will flounder very quickly. All done for the benefit of the rich clubs. It will shaft the lower league clubs and not benefit the national team at all
Give it 6 months and the idea will be parked
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If you disagree, a small step...
http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/the-football-association-say-no-to-b-teams#share
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Dyke and his colleagues don't know their arse from their elbow.
Crap idea which will flounder very quickly. All done for the benefit of the rich clubs. It will shaft the lower league clubs and not benefit the national team at all
Give it 6 months and the idea will be parked
Let's hope so!
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I bet all the other countries wish they could call on the expertise of Greg Dyke and Danny Mills.
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This idea really is a load of unthought-through bollocks, but the best related story I've seen is in the Daily Heil (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2623686/Accrington-Stanley-mock-Greg-Dykes-Premier-League-B-team-proposal-Twitter.html) with Accrington Stanley fielding a B team and applying to join the Premier League
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I was listening to M City v Villa on 5 live and in their new format (to me anyway) they're based in a studio and geberally chat and only comment on the match if anything exciting happens. They had Danny Mills on who is part of the panel who helped pull this together. He was very explicit in saying:
1. This report has been rushed out as the the B league idea had been leaked
2. They have to do what the big clubs want as they're the most powerful. Only Gobby Savage picked him up on this and said their focus should have started at grass roots level, bottom up, rather than top down.
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I, for one, will be amazed if allowing Hull B to play Dagenham and Redbridge in front of a crowd of twelve doesn't lead to England winning the next ten World Cups.
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I've found myself liking Robbie Savage more than Mills over the last few months, that takes some doing.
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I bet all the other countries wish they could call on the expertise of Greg Dyke and Danny Mills.
Why do I keep thinking of Brass Bands?
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The last time we heard one of these great new ideas which was going to benefit the national team we had the formation of the Premier League.
It's simple really, just make a rule for league games that says that at least 5 players in each team has to be English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish. Everyone's in the same boat then. In the European competitions no rule applies.
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There's a simple answer to the problem of young English players not getting enough competitive matches............ expand the Premier League season to 39 games ;)
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A Football Association commission's plans for a B league could "wreck" the English football pyramid, says Premier League boss Richard Scudamore.
FA chairman Greg Dyke wants to improve opportunities for young English players by creating a new tier that would feature Premier League B teams.
Scudamore acknowledged the "challenge" of developing more English talent.
But he added: "I don't believe we should be wrecking the pyramid of English football to achieve that."
Huh. I'm confused.
Since when has Scudamore been on the side of right and sense?
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Huh. I'm confused.
Since when has Scudamore been on the side of right and sense?
It's quite an achievement by the FA. They've managed to make him sound like the voice of the ordinary fan. That's no mean feat.
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I note that a team in claret and blue has won the trophy in this related story in the Independent:
Dyke (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/the-weekend-dossier-greg-dykes-plans-for-youth-development-should-draw-on-the-new-spirit-of-collaboration-between-premier-league-academies-and-schools-9348449.html)
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The B-team idea is simply pandering to the top clubs at the expense of everybody else. If Dyke really wants to increase the amount of English players playing top level competitive football he should consider the following:
1) Don't allow clubs like Chelsea and Arsenal to fill their academies with young foreign talent. How is this helping produce players for our national side? Make these academies for British youngsters only.
2) Scrap the loan system. It's abused. The big clubs won't then be able to stockpile players knowing they can loan them out to get game time. At one point in January Chelsea had 24 players out on loan! Talent currently playing supporting roles at their parent clubs like Lukaku will instead be long term big players for other teams and make the Premier League more competitive.
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1) Don't allow clubs like Chelsea and Arsenal to fill their academies with young foreign talent. How is this helping produce players for our national side? Make these academies for British youngsters only.
How do you plan on enforcing this? Why should Chelsea and Arsenal care much beyond whether or not they do well? Presumably we'll be signing up to this as well, so the likes of Drennan, Grealish and Weimann wouldn't be playing for us had it previously been the policy.
How about the likes of Clark who after representing England as a schoolboy decided to declare for Ireland? Kick him out?
How about players who move to England as children (say John Barnes), are they allowed into these 'English people only' academies? Actually, you said British only - why should the FA care about helping Scottish and Welsh talent progress?
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That's the problem for the FA and/or Premier League to find a solution.
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How about a 'B' team league, top four all qualify for the Champions League?
They could have their own FA Cup as well.
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That's the problem for the FA and/or Premier League to find a solution.
Well, it's not something that they are going to want to do so they don't really need to find a solution at all.
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That's the problem for the FA and/or Premier League to find a solution.
Well, it's not something that they are going to want to do so they don't really need to find a solution at all.
If their intention is for clubs to produce more players of the quality required to represent England, why would they not want to consider it?
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A Football Association commission's plans for a B league could "wreck" the English football pyramid, says Premier League boss Richard Scudamore.
FA chairman Greg Dyke wants to improve opportunities for young English players by creating a new tier that would feature Premier League B teams.
Scudamore acknowledged the "challenge" of developing more English talent.
But he added: "I don't believe we should be wrecking the pyramid of English football to achieve that."
Huh. I'm confused.
Since when has Scudamore been on the side of right and sense?
It's not the FA that run football in this country, it's the Premier League. The PL only care about the PL. They don't care about the number of foreign players, or the national team. As long as they can secure lucrative TV deals that's all they care about. Scudamore talks about "wrecking the pyramid" isn't that what the Premier League did when they started up and all the money started rolling in, mainly to them. At least in the old first division days there were half the teams in the division who could possibly win the league. Now there's two, possibly three. Apart from these the rest just make up the numbers.
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To be fair, this commission was set up with the sole objective of developing an England team which can win the world cup. With that in mind you can see how the suggestions make sense.
The bigger question is whether getting a World Cup winning England team is worth destroying the lower leagues of English football. I'd like to think it's not and I'd hope that as a result these suggestions will be massively watered down before they get anywhere near implemented.
As for Scudamore, he's against anything that increases the power of the FA and the national team as that will inevitably reduce the power of the PL.
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That's the problem for the FA and/or Premier League to find a solution.
Well, it's not something that they are going to want to do so they don't really need to find a solution at all.
If their intention is for clubs to produce more players of the quality required to represent England, why would they not want to consider it?
For all the reasons that I said.
And you're talking about two completely different things. As the chap below you says, the Premier League wants something completely different to the FA.