Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Londonvilla on July 27, 2013, 10:45:04 PM
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So what went wrong with Barry Bannan?
With Barry Bannan’s exit from the Villa just a matter of time, it’s probably the right moment to discuss what the hell went wrong with his career.
Ian Holloway said that Barry Bannan was the most talented footballer he’d ever worked with when he was on loan at Blackpool. He showed in glimpses supreme talent (that game against Manchester United) but never really kicked on. He should have been better than Sid Cowans, he should be the captain of Scotland, the top four clubs should be fighting for his signature, yet he’ll end up in the championship.
So what went wrong? Here are some theories,
1) We can’t bridge the gap between youth team and first-team. – How the club brings young players through is appalling, we have a history of offering players with potential, new contracts on relatively high salaries (£20,000 per week) when they are 19 or 20 and they just stop developing. The latest one is Nathan Abayomi Delfouneso, who follows the greats like Luke Moore who had too much too young. The truth is if someone offered you over £400,000 a year after tax, wouldn’t you think you’ve made it, especially if you’re only 19 or 20 years old? The blame for Barry not progressing can be laid firmly at the feet of the Chief Executives who offered him a silly contract before he had proved himself.
2) The Villa has consistently failed to use the loan system properly. – Young players need to play at the highest possible level in order to develop. The Villa has not been able to loan any of its bright young things to the right clubs, in order to help them develop. I was told by one of the coaches at Stockport County that how loans work is, that there are basically two types. The first type is where a club agrees to pay a loan fee plus all or part of the wages of the player they are hoping to have on loan. You normally can’t recall a player back to your club if a loan fee has been paid. The second type involves no loan fee and the wages are paid in full (unless it’s Chelsea where they cover most of the wages) but if the player is fit the player starts. The problem with younger Villa starlets is that they get paid too much and championship clubs can’t afford the wages. The Villa should have offered Barry Bannan to a championship club two years ago on the basis that we cover the wages and he’s guaranteed playing time. Look how good Westwood is and he was playing in division one. Game time is everything if you’re going to develop as a footballer.
3) No one has had faith in Barry’s ability. – The quality of the managers at the Villa over recent years has been poor. Barry Bannan was not good enough to start for any of them and not poor enough to sell. (Stuck between a rock and a hard place) if one manager and had confidence in Barry’s ability (before Lambert got to the club) we could have had one hell of a player on our hands.
4) Paul Lambert has got it wrong. – Paul Lambert has given Barry a chance but never in a position which would showcase his talents. Barry Bannan is an attacking midfield player who should be receiving the ball in the opposition’s half of the pitch. Playing him as a defensive midfield player or a central midfield player is only going to highlight the fact that he is the size of a Hobbit, with the pace of a turtle.
5) The premiership is a league for television audiences across the world. – Modern football killed Barry Bannan chances of being a star at the Villa. Martin O’Neill had ridiculous sums of money, (compared to Paul Lambert) and spent it on overpriced bums and didn’t give youth a chance. This was because we are in a society where managers do not have the time to build a team because we all want instant success. If Barry Bannan had been born in the early 1960s he would have been in contention for a place in our league winning team. Because back in those days young players got the chance to develop and prove themselves, no one can tell me that Barry doesn’t have talent.
6) No one to blame but himself. – if you’re going to make it in professional football talent is only part of what you need. You need heart determination and arrogance especially if you’re a ballplayer. Barry never really dominated games, he never demanded the ball, he never shouted at players, who made a mistake; he never took the responsibility for winning games. Barry’s failure at the Villa is Barry’s fault, hopefully dropping down into the championship will be just the thing that he needs to make him realise he’s privilege to get paid to do something that we would do for nothing.
Sorry for it being a bit of a long post; however we keep getting it wrong, when bringing incredibly talented players through, my fear is we’ve messed it up with Barry and Nathan and were are going to mess it up with Gary Gardner and Ciaran Clark. As a result analysing what went wrong with Barry Bannan is probably one of the most important issues for Villa fans at this time, especially when we have no chance of competing with the champions league teams in relation to finances.
So the question remains what went wrong with Barry Bannan?
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How about, he just wasn't good enough?
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Erm, he's not tall enough.
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Just read the existing thread.
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Too small I think. His ability made up for it to a certain degree but he didn't have quite enough. Look at the players his size who have made it - they are absolutely worls class. Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Maradonna. Can't think of any more.
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Fair play for taking the time to write an essay on it. Nice presentation too.
Have to take issue with your first point though - if we hadn't offered Baz and Nat those wages at the time some other club would likely have (or near enough). Similarly, if Westwood, Lowton etc. have mares next season will it really have been our fault that we rewarded them this summer for fine breakthrough seasons? An agent will always leverage potential of a young player especially if it's partly backed-up with encouraging first team performances.
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Same reasons hundreds of other players fail to live up to their early potential.
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He not as talented as Lee Hendrie let alone Cowans.
Bye Barry
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Did I miss the bit about him being a piss head or was that included in Chief Executives paying too much?
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Whilst the points you raise are undoubtedly contributing factors, I think we're all in agreement that Barry Bannan is what went wrong with Barry Bannan. I'm sure the fans and management of Aston Villa would give him "more time" if he wasn't such an arrogant tosser who's most memorable exploits were under the influence of alcohol.
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DUI
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How can you compare him to Gordon Cowans, not a patch. Sid always remained level headed throughout his career as well, not sure Barry has done that so far. I wish him well, but dont see him as a premiership player in the future
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Fair play for taking the time to write an essay on it. Nice presentation too.
Have to take issue with your first point though - if we hadn't offered Baz and Nat those wages at the time some other club would likely have (or near enough). Similarly, if Westwood, Lowton etc. have mares next season will it really have been our fault that we rewarded them this summer for fine breakthrough seasons? An agent will always leverage potential of a young player especially if it's partly backed-up with encouraging first team performances.
Agree.
If we'd offered a (relative) pittance to those players once they'd made the first team and were seeing regular action, it's quite likely that they'd have got the deals they were looking for elsewhere. Had Albrighton, Bannan, Clark or (going back further Luke Moore) left soon after breaking through, there would have been outrage.
The OP does have a point about players perhaps getting too much too soon and thinking they've made it, but that's an issue for football as a whole, not just our Chief Exec.
The hope is, if the players are hungry enough (and good enough) money should never be the biggest motivating factor. It's important, but they know if they stay in the game for any length of time they will be rewarded financially. Pride in their performance and looking to develop should be a career long thing, it shouldn't cease being important after the first proper contract they sign. For the better players, I'm sure that's not the case.
I do agree on failing to utilize the loan facility more. But not as far as Championship is concerned. Bannan and the Fonz have had loans at different Championship clubs. Looking back, we could have been braver and sent the Fonz and wee Barry out on 6 month or season long loans to other Prem clubs. I get why we didn't, those players were on the fringes for us, and were -in their own way- important squad players. But taking the longterm view, regular, sustained top flight football for a Portsmouth, Blackpool or similar might have enhanced their development, rather than just the odd runout for us. On the other hand, had they bombed, we might have been able to conclude far sooner that they weren't cut out for the demands of top flight football.
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Arrogance is his down fall. He was barred from the Belfry for constantly ignoring greenkeepers requests to not drive his golf buggy onto the tee's. The old " Do you know who i am" attitude did not work.
He still has the potential to make it as a very good footballer. He just needs to drop the attitude and concentrate on his game. He has the ability to still be a great player. Good luck to him in the future and i hope he does very well.
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Too many Cheezy Watsits
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Too small I think. His ability made up for it to a certain degree but he didn't have quite enough. Look at the players his size who have made it - they are absolutely worls class. Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Maradonna. Can't think of any more.
Certain little Italian who played for Parma and Chelsea?
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Too small I think. His ability made up for it to a certain degree but he didn't have quite enough. Look at the players his size who have made it - they are absolutely worls class. Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Maradonna. Can't think of any more.
Certain little Italian who played for Parma and Chelsea?
And Alan Wright.
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To quote Ian Holloway and say that BB was the most talented player he had worked with,as to be tempered by the fact that Blackpool were a modest Championship side. I remember my first sight of Bannan bossing an U19 play off between Villa league winners and Man C. Youth Cup winners,BB ran the game and a nearby Citeh was heard to say that City must get hold of himin the second half.So promise at youth level but that doesn't translate to senior level. The game becomes more intense,physical and more demanding. Time and space is limited, limitations are revealed..Mark Walters as a schoolboy and youth player was outstanding,at first team level,his pace was not so evident. Lee Hendrie scored goals at youth levels but better goalkeeping and less time meant goalscoring became a weakness.Jimmy Brown a first team player at 15 but his early physical presence was ordinary at 20.
Bannan - no pace ,consequently no dribbling ability. A physical weakness allied with a lack of courage means very poor defensive abilities and inability to impose himself in more advanced areas. Talent undoubtedly,but Lionel Martin had talent so did Pimblett,Atkinson,Collymore,Curcic,the Moores etc,just as in cricket Ramprakesh and Hick were the most talented batsmen of their generation. Talent is not enough it has to be allied with character and intelligence.
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To be a bit of a bore,there is another point that very successful players at schoolboy or youth level might rarely taste failure ,so when difficulties are encountered at a later level there is not the character to combat the problem.As a reverse of that,let's just mention players like Withe,Andy Townsend and Ian Taylor - failures at youth level.
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Too small I think. His ability made up for it to a certain degree but he didn't have quite enough. Look at the players his size who have made it - they are absolutely worls class. Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Maradonna. Can't think of any more.
Certain little Italian who played for Parma and Chelsea?
Juan Mata is even smaller!
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Having talent alone is not good enough. Talent has to be turned into productive contribution by application and that's where Mr Bannan has let himself and the club down.
Off field antics have also not helped. Drink drive case was one very bad example but there are numerous "rumours" of mad night outs in various places. He simply started believing his own hype a bit too much. Good luck to him at BBNR and let's hope he makes a good career out of playing football.
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Peter Whittingham.
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Peter Whittingham.
It what way? As an example of a player who has eventually made it back to the highest level or as an example of a player who turned down our contract offer to accept a signing on fee that turned him into an overnight millionaire but has not possibly reached his full potential?
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Peter Whittingham.
It what way? As an example of a player who has eventually made it back to the highest level or as an example of a player who turned down our contract offer to accept a signing on fee that turned him into an overnight millionaire but has not possibly reached his full potential?
Sorry, couldn't articulate it. I feel he's an example of a guy who made it back. So fair play.
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Championship player at best. Good luck to him at his next club.
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Holloway says a lot of things.
Anyway that old gobshite Holloway aside I do wish Bannan the best in the future.
I am afraid at some point last season I finally just lost all patience with the lad. Tired of seeing him slow down chasing a player when he was deep, tired of seeing him try the same old passes and the same old corners, few of which ever really impressed.
I will give him credit, he was involved in some of our good performances last season (particularly liverpool), I thank him for that. He also gave some very happy memories playing for the youth team where he was a genuine talent. But he really just never clicked with us in the first team. Maybe he will be a great footballer, but it was not happening here.
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It is a mixture of his small size and attitude and desire. He is a creative player but he doesn't dribble well like Zola or Maradona or possibly Barcelona pair. I do think we should have sent the like of him and Nathan on a season loan to Walsall.
We need to use Walsall as development partner. I think every season we should sent 3 players on season loan to Walsall and use them as a gap between reserve/u21 to premier league matches.
We need to look at our system and analyse why the promising young players doesn't become the like of Gerrard, Lampard and co. Let be honest there had not been amazing player we had develop in our academy in the premier league days. If there are we usually develop them after buying them young ie Dwight Yorke / Gareth Barry.
I think the best player from our academy had been Gabriel Agbonlahor and possibly Darius Vassell in last decade and that is not saying much about our system, he is very good but nothing special.
Perhaps Petrov will help on this issue.
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How about, he just wasn't good enough?
This.
Is hardly the first player to look good in the youth/reserves but lost on the pitch proper, certainly won't be the last.
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Like many of our youth products he either didn't want it enough or wasn't good enough to bridge the gap to PL level. When you lack the physical presence you need something extra like blinding pace/acceleration, top technique, and massive desire. Bannan always looked pissed off, like he was sucking on lemons, as if the whole thing was a chore, and his off field antics didn't indicate that he was the most dedicated of professionals.
Delfounso, like Moore before him, just looks like he isn't interested. I've long since given up being overly optimistic about our youth products and I'll be more surprised if Gary Gardner makes it than if he doesn't.
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Are we being over-critical of our academy?
How many players end up becoming first team regulars at the club where they started in the academy? - the drop-out rate is phenomenal and clubs operate on such short-term timescales that the odds of making the transition right through the system are terrifically high.
BB has done ready well to be a survivor in such a system and now needs much greater personal application to kick on to the next level.
Good luck to him - one day he might well be a premiership player.
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It doesnt take a poor attitude and arrogance to turn a promising youth player into lower league fodder. But having those things doesn't help.
Plenty of talented and dedicated players just didn't cut it at the very highest level. However good Cowans et al were, they weren't playing in the premier league 2013 where competition for places comes from the very best footballing talent on the planet (n.b. I am not suggesting Cowans wouldn't have made it in today's game). It is a tough, tough environment and these are absolute elite players. Only the best can make it in Bannan's position, with his physical attributes. We've named a few of them on here already - superstars of the game.
Bannan was always fighting the odds and, his mental approach and personality have tipped those odds too far against him.
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Good luck to him, I had high hopes when he first broke into the team but it's all fizzled out a bit and he needs to kick start himself again.
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Too small I think. His ability made up for it to a certain degree but he didn't have quite enough. Look at the players his size who have made it - they are absolutely worls class. Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Maradonna. Can't think of any more.
No. How about Billy Bremner,Johnny Giles, and Zola for starters.
Its simple really. He flattered to deceive. Nothing to do with size. He was not good enough. Thats why he is going for less than a million!
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Delfounso, like Moore before him, just looks like he isn't interested.
I agree entirely about these two with their body language and whole demeanour on the pitch.
Then again, Brian Little always looked like that to me.
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Delfounso, like Moore before him, just looks like he isn't interested.
I agree entirely about these two with their body language and whole demeanour on the pitch.
Then again, Brian Little always looked like that to me.
Asprilla always looked that that as well for the geordies. He could score a fantastic goal and look totally unconcerned.
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Maybe a little biased here but comparing his ability to Cowans?????? In fact I'm struggling to think off a player of any Club that has stroked a ball about effortlessly like Sid did. He wasn't too bad at other aspects of the game either even tackling with his slight frame.
Bannan is probably a Championship player (not Dog Shit) but did look at one point that he might make it higher.
I would say good luck to him apart from his off field antics like abandoning a Range Rover in the fast lane of a motorway.
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Lionel Messi was not born Lionel Messi the greatest player on earth. He might have been born with the potential to become the greatest player on earth but it was only a possibility. Other possibilities might have been Lionel Messi the baker or Lionel Messi the ex footballer who went to Barcelona but didn't quite make it and is now plying his trade at the local second division Argentinian team. Without luck on his side he could have been any of those people but what made Lionel Messi, Lionel Messi-the-greatest-player-on-earth was his "ten thousand hours of purposeful practice".
Barry Bannan did not have the grit and determination to put the long hours of slog in. It sounds like Barry Bannan was too busy being Barry Big Bollocks to bother to put in the time. Perhaps the academy is brilliant at developing the skills required to be a top class footballer but not the mentality. There are few places that can do this. Barcelona's academy seems to have it.
The world is littered with people who could have been a contender. Barry Bannan is now another one of them.
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Not quite good enough to cut it in the top flight. A team full of similar players would play nice football most of the time, but lose more games than it won and be relegated.
He had a good run in the team, a generous opportunity to prove himself and came up a bit short. I hope he does well at Blackburn.
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Sometimes Players burst on to the scene then get found out by the senior players in the league and they are easy to handle, because of this they lose confidence, then the senior players of other teams use this to step them into the floor further, happens at all levels, the ones that can handle this and have all the necessary skills to become a premier league player make the ones that don't, don't.
Sometimes players just aren't good enough, all fans of clubs like to see a player make it / come through its disappointing but it happens all the time.
Personally i never rated him, i never thought he was that good in terms of the class of player we needed, but that's just my opinion, in real terms he is a player that will go on to become a senior player himself just at a lower standard Villa will ever play at.
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Not quite good enough to cut it in the top flight. A team full of similar players would play nice football most of the time, but lose more games than it won and be relegated.
He had a good run in the team, a generous opportunity to prove himself and came up a bit short. I hope he does well at Blackburn.
I think this is the case too. He may turn up again in future at top level like peter whitingham with a promoted club l but for now no. not quite good enough.
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Too small I think. His ability made up for it to a certain degree but he didn't have quite enough. Look at the players his size who have made it - they are absolutely worls class. Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Maradonna. Can't think of any more.
No. How about Billy Bremner,Johnny Giles, and Zola for starters.
All exceptional footballers. That's my point, you have to be exceptionally talented to make up for lack of physical stature and presence. I think Bannan has the ability but lacks the 'wiry strength' of all the others mentioned. If he was a bit taller I don't think his ability would be an issue.
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I wish him well wherever he ends up, not the greatest player but I do think he got a raw deal on here at times.
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Are we being over-critical of our academy?
How many players end up becoming first team regulars at the club where they started in the academy? - the drop-out rate is phenomenal and clubs operate on such short-term timescales that the odds of making the transition right through the system are terrifically high.
BB has done ready well to be a survivor in such a system and now needs much greater personal application to kick on to the next level.
Good luck to him - one day he might well be a premiership player.
I suspect that a league table of total appearances by ex academy as a percentage of total appearances in all would have us at the top.
It's not that we are bad at developing players after they graduate from the academy,more a case of until recently we have hardly tried. No manager has been that willing to take the short term hit. Most every other premier league team is the same.
Regardless of whether they will ultimately be good enough or not, many other academy players have faced the 18-21 year old gap but have belatedly been given opportunity. Clark, Baker, Weimann all are better players now than they were a year or two ago. Bannan doesn't seem to have changed at all. He has to take a lot of responsibility for that himself.
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Never liked him, surly arrogant twat who would drift in and out of games. You need more than the ability to pass a football accurately to make it at the top level. He didn't even do that brilliantly because his decision making on who to pass to in a given situation was often poor.
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Too small I think. His ability made up for it to a certain degree but he didn't have quite enough. Look at the players his size who have made it - they are absolutely worls class. Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Maradonna. Can't think of any more.
No. How about Billy Bremner,Johnny Giles, and Zola for starters.
All exceptional footballers. That's my point, you have to be exceptionally talented to make up for lack of physical stature and presence. I think Bannan has the ability but lacks the 'wiry strength' of all the others mentioned. If he was a bit taller I don't think his ability would be an issue.
It's not about strength, it's about brains and reactions. Bannan was lauded by managers from Holloway to Lambert via GH for his talent, but it's quite clear his brain has let him down. He never learned about the game he should be playing, never learned the subtleties of being a midfield playmaker.
I do think some blame has to go to MON, whose preference for technically limited, overpaid, senior jobbers set back the progress of a few of our youth teamers. However, though being inferior in talent, Clark and Albrighton have worked hard and are being given another chance by Lambert, whereas Delfouneso and Bannan are off. The reason: mentality. Fonz absolutely thought he'd made it far too early on, and I think Bannan suffered from a combination of resting on the laurels of his Fulham and Man Utd performances and of Eck being too footballingly limited himself to tell him not to go it there, give it the Billy Big Bollocks and spray the ball around flashily and aimlessly.
He still has a chance to make a decent career for himself, but he'll never be as good as he could be because he never bothered to learn. A great example of how being a good footballer isn't entirely dependent on technique - as SGT said to that reporter at half time, 'you play football with your heads.'
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Buckfast and driving.
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Too small I think. His ability made up for it to a certain degree but he didn't have quite enough. Look at the players his size who have made it - they are absolutely worls class. Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Maradonna. Can't think of any more.
No. How about Billy Bremner,Johnny Giles, and Zola for starters.
All exceptional footballers. That's my point, you have to be exceptionally talented to make up for lack of physical stature and presence. I think Bannan has the ability but lacks the 'wiry strength' of all the others mentioned. If he was a bit taller I don't think his ability would be an issue.
It's not about strength, it's about brains and reactions. Bannan was lauded by managers from Holloway to Lambert via GH for his talent, but it's quite clear his brain has let him down. He never learned about the game he should be playing, never learned the subtleties of being a midfield playmaker.
I do think some blame has to go to MON, whose preference for technically limited, overpaid, senior jobbers set back the progress of a few of our youth teamers. However, though being inferior in talent, Clark and Albrighton have worked hard and are being given another chance by Lambert, whereas Delfouneso and Bannan are off. The reason: mentality. Fonz absolutely thought he'd made it far too early on, and I think Bannan suffered from a combination of resting on the laurels of his Fulham and Man Utd performances and of Eck being too footballingly limited himself to tell him not to go it there, give it the Billy Big Bollocks and spray the ball around flashily and aimlessly.
He still has a chance to make a decent career for himself, but he'll never be as good as he could be because he never bothered to learn. A great example of how being a good footballer isn't entirely dependent on technique - as SGT said to that reporter at half time, 'you play football with your heads.'
Yeah, size doesn't matter. That's why the Premier League is littered with borderline midgets. Not.
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Occasionally off the pitch there could be seen as something of a perceived arrogance about Barry Bannan. He's undoubtedly go ability some other players he's been with over the last 4 years, don't have. I don't think he's worked hard enough to improve his all round game.
For someone with a wand of a left foot (apparently) his passing needs to be more consistent. He can pick out some excellent long passes but it's choosing the as and when. It's reading a team mates run. He doesn't necessarily have as good vision or anticipation as he does long passing ability. People mention Xavi as an example of small players without much strength who can still show their primary ability. The thing with Xavi (obviously using a worldy as a comparison isn't entirely fair on BB) is that he never, ever wastes a pass. He knows when to keep it simple, when to be incisive, and when to go long. Barry's decision making is not so good. Ironically it got a little better last season, but not up to scratch. That aside, Xavi's movement and availability throughout the pitch is exceptional too. He's always there when you need him. Bannan goes missing in games, particularly after an error. He'll go missing or his composure on the ball just goes to shit.
His set pieces are consistently poor.
He should have worked on his strength. He has no pace at all, there's no rectifying that, but he should have trained harder to make him self more robust. Dennis Wise was tiny but he was hard to shake off the ball and he could really muller someone with a tackle.
As I say, in terms of Villa players who've come through, and this relates to Delfouneso too. I'm going to make the Luke Moore and Gabby Agbonlahor comparison. In terms of natural ability, Luke Moore was better than Gabby. Hell, maybe even Stefan was too. We all saw that. Gab of course had one raw ingredient that gave him at least one exceptional attribute. Whilst the Moore's never fulfilled their potential, and a few on here thought, hoped that one day we may have seen the Moore bro's up front, Gabby has become a premier league regular and an international. Luke Moore's score what, 15ish top flight goals. Gabby 60. Why? Because Gabby has a fantastic work ethic. He's work his bollocks off. He's been strong willed on and off the pitch. He's had self belief that Moore never had say, without have too much arrogance that perhaps Bannan has. He's worked extremely hard to improve the weaker aspects of his game, like his touch, his strength, his passing, his dribbling. He's actually a good player now, and also adaptable. He can play up top or on the flanks, either side. He can shoot with both feet. He's quite good in the air.
When some of our more gifted academy players don't make the grade, the only person that can be played at the end of the day is themselves. If you want to make it in the top league you've got to work hard and really fight for your chance. Look at how Ash Westwood stepped up to the top flight. Essentially he was doing would Barry Bannan could be but wasn't. Westy's not big, he's not a physical player by any means but his passing is spot on, his vision is very good and his control of the pitch is superb. He's always available for the ball and rarely wastes it.
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Top post Supertom, absolutely spot on regarding Gabby vs. Moore.
The understanding of this seems to underpin our recruitment strategy, which is what fills me with so much hope for every one of our unearthed gems.
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Size doesn't have to matter if you use some intelligence. Obviously, the number of big players massively outranks the number of intelligent ones.
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In Stan Petrov, he had the perfect role model to learn from. Someone who was always making themselves available and played simple passes with the priority of retaining possession. Never looking for the 'Hollywood' pass. Instead of having that ready made, we've had to bring in Ashley Westwood to do pretty much the same thing. As a result Bannan's and Westwood's careers are going in the totally opposite directions.
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So the next question is why aren't our academy producing the players with the grit, determination or brains to make it in the top flight? Surely these can be learnt as much as the forty yard cross-field pass.
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So the next question is why aren't our academy producing the players with the grit, determination or brains to make it in the top flight? Surely these can be learnt as much as the forty yard cross-field pass.
I guess part of that comes into work ethic, and studying the game. I always sensed with Bannan that he felt he had the ability to be a top midfielder already, and never really ironed out the creases.
What I do think is that for the lads coming through, who are 19/20, we now have in place a manager and an ethos that will help them along greatly. That wasn't really the case with O Neill. Houllier and Eck used our youth, but more out of want for better players. We've recognised the importance of young players now.
I do think in the next 2-3 years we'll see more successes coming through. Whereas you'd say that the group around 23ish now, the kind of make or break age hasn't been entirely successful. If Lambert stays, I think he'll get it right. I look at Grealish, Donacien, Gardner, Robinson, Johnson for example and they look good. There's also a lot of hope for Carruthers (questionnable attitude will hinder him unless he grows up), Drennen and Burke. We have quality coming through. If we loan then more efficiently, bed them in better, it'll help. If at least half that group are established in the squad in 2 years time, then we'll have done very well.
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Size doesn't have to matter if you use some intelligence. Obviously, the number of big players massively outranks the number of intelligent ones.
So you're either big or intelligent and never the twain shall meet?
Being a bit of a short-arse myself, I'd whole-heartedly agree with that.
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How about, he just wasn't good enough?
This, never really rated him to be honest!
Think he will just drift about in the Championship or even lower.
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I think it's a well-written post and people saying "He's just not good enough" are wrong.
Something clearly was lacking be it attitude, aptitude or effort but it wasn't talent that for sure. I also share the OP's worry that a lot of talented players haven't had their potential maximised. I don't think that point can be argued against. I'm hoping it's something Lambert is currently addressing so that the future youth players coming through have the sort of attributes that he's currently scouting for.
Bizarrely I don't actually think Bannan was all that bad last season, there were times when he was putting more effort than anyone on the park, the crowd getting on his back just put more pressure on him and things seemed to escalate from there.
Obviously he has had his issues off the field too which can't be ignored.
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Size doesn't have to matter if you use some intelligence. Obviously, the number of big players massively outranks the number of intelligent ones.
So you're either big or intelligent and never the twain shall meet?
Being a bit of a short-arse myself, I'd whole-heartedly agree with that.
Occasionally, and scarily, they do meet. Big players might have less of a chance of developing real footballing nous just because they have less need to, whereas shorter players need to adapt. But Vieira, for instance, was big and clever, as was Thuram in defence, and Zlatan obviously has everything (except the 'being too bothered' gene). It's just that intelligence for a player is probably harder than going to the gym.
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The 'hollywood ball' comments are unfair and a bit lazy really. He dose'nt make those those kind of passes half as much as some people make out. He does try stuff that dose'nt always come off but by and large last season he kept it simple and at times looked a better player for it.
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I believe anybody can be taught to excel at anything if the teachers (coaches) are good enough and the subject is willing and works hard enough. I think Barry Bannan's downfall has been caused by lack of willingness to have the faults in his game coached out of him. Others have referred to his arrogance and that is as good a term as any other.
Game after game we have seen him attempt to play fifty yard passes when a five yard pass was the best option. I cannot believe nobody told him to cut out the glory balls and play it simple. One fault he still has which drives me mad is that he will never run with the ball directly up the pitch. He always goes on diagonal runs which make him easier to dispossess and expose his lack of pace. He must be a coach's worst nightmare.
All of that and too much clubbing and booze. I wish him well wherever he goes but I feel sorry for anybody who tries to address his faults.
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During the last test I listened to someone on TMS during an interval, it might have been CMJ, talk about Joe Root. Apparently Joe Root is particularly good at going into the nets and working on his weaknesses before being told by the coaches that he ought to go work on these weaknesses. I can't imagine Barry Bannan doing the football equivalent of that.
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Bannan would be telling the coaches how poor they are whilst hitting another aimless corner to nowhere.
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Bannan would be telling the coaches how poor they are whilst hitting another aimless corner to nowhere.
I'm so happy our corners are hit exquisitely without him, oh hang on ... Doh
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Do anyone know if we employ or have access to a psychologist?
I recall how Wiggins and the other cyclist used to praise their psychologist as he helped them over come their (regular) mental doubts. Whilst the sports are different it would appear to be a good investment if it improves our youngsters. They're good footballers but if we could get 10% more out of them mentally/intelligence then it would pay for itself many times over.
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I can see a league or fa cup journey to Blackburn this season, with little Barry Bannan dominating the game and scoring the winner.
Never really been keen on the arrogant little sod, reminds me of a drunken and cocky lee Hendrie.
He just was not good enough to play in our first team, it is as simple as that.
If he wanted it badly enough, he would be here now, challenging for his first team spot, look how badly Delphy boy wants it, determined, hard working.
This could really be his season to shine.
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Maradona was small. ;D
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Not as small as little peas.
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and The Krankies. They never made it either!
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I can see a league or fa cup journey to Blackburn this season, with little Barry Bannan dominating the game and scoring the winner.
No I can't see that at all unless the winner he scores is an own goal.
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If he does play against us, will he still snatch the ball for every one of our free kicks?
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I think there are some good points in the OP.
I also agree that I don't think we've used the loan system wisely for our young players.
In season 09/10 the Fonz, Clark and Albrighton had all made their first team debuts the previous season. I believe none of them went out on loan that season so essentially played another year for the reserves.
On Bannan though it has to be attitude for me. He started the 11/12 season quite well I thought but all went wrong after the drink driving arrest. Heard other stories of his drinking exploits in Sutton and actually spotted him playing the FOTB machine in a local bookies so just strikes me as someone who isn't dedicating himself enough to his profession like say a Lowton or Westwood who will be premier league regulars for years to come.
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"FOTB machine"?
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http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2012/07/24/how-britain-got-addicted-to-bookies-betting-terminals/
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http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2012/07/24/how-britain-got-addicted-to-bookies-betting-terminals/
The legislation that allowed them in was nowhere near as wide-ranging as it was expected to be. Could have been much worse. I was working on a project that intended to put them into airports, bus stations, train stations, everywhere. Then it got scaled back.
Oh, and if you're thinking of spunking loads of money on those machine at the bookie's, don't bother. Just play the roulette games on their web site, which will have a max payout more like 250k than 500 quid.
Anyway. I digress.
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Or put about about 1k on us not to get through when we draw a league two side in the cup this season. ;)
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http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2012/07/24/how-britain-got-addicted-to-bookies-betting-terminals/
Jesus, that's grim.
The bookies over by the Bradford by me is always busy, now I know why. Absolute disgrace.
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The attitude. I really wanted to like him, he seemed to have so much natural ability. I think he got it into his head he deserved to be playing week in-week out and perhaps got ideas above his station (not difficult bless him). Wish him all the best when he does go, I think in a couple of years when he's matured a bit more he'll make a decent player for someone.
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I guess we'll never know why Beery Bannan never made it at Villa, but I wish him all the best for the future.
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Do anyone know if we employ or have access to a psychologist?
I recall how Wiggins and the other cyclist used to praise their psychologist as he helped them over come their (regular) mental doubts. Whilst the sports are different it would appear to be a good investment if it improves our youngsters. They're good footballers but if we could get 10% more out of them mentally/intelligence then it would pay for itself many times over.
Dr Steve Peters worked for the British Cycling team and currently works - inter alia - with LFC.
He is a very effective 'mind doctor' (althogh I suspect Downing may be Mission Impossible for him).
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Bannan simply isn't as good as he thinks he is. This with his off field antics and 'Billy big bollocks' attitude he was never going to fit in at Villa under Lambert, especially if he isn't doing it on the pitch
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I've said it before Bannan was great when he thought everyone loved him. As soon as he had one boo his game failed him. For all the comments about attitude, etc. I think the most likely thing is that he'd heard people call him too small for so long that he started to believe it. Then when he got booed, etc that played on his mind.
Someone said he went missing after mistakes, I don't think that's quite right, what generally happened after a mistake was he tried to do something spectacular. A few times it worked, he got clapped and went on to have a great game. Other times it didn't work and that's when he drifted out of the game.
I'm convinced that if someone can get him to know he's good enough without needing the crowd/team to back it up he'll make it, if not he'll muddle along at championship/SPL level and have a decent career without ever being the player he could've become.
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The best thing for him is to drop down and work his way up again like Pete Whittingham. Whitts in truth I think is a better player and his return to the Prem is long overdue. If Barry can get close to doing as well as Pete, he'll have done well.
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During the last test I listened to someone on TMS during an interval, it might have been CMJ, talk about Joe Root. Apparently Joe Root is particularly good at going into the nets and working on his weaknesses before being told by the coaches that he ought to go work on these weaknesses. I can't imagine Barry Bannan doing the football equivalent of that.
Good point. But sadly it wasn't CMJ,who died this year. Also didn't Bannan slag off Brum on Facebook or something the moment he arrived? I took against him then.
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This isn't specifically related to Bannan but it is a good study (also quite long) on what is going wrong with youth football in the premier league.
http://whitehouseaddress.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-failure-of-youth-development-in.html
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During the last test I listened to someone on TMS during an interval, it might have been CMJ, talk about Joe Root. Apparently Joe Root is particularly good at going into the nets and working on his weaknesses before being told by the coaches that he ought to go work on these weaknesses. I can't imagine Barry Bannan doing the football equivalent of that.
Good point. But sadly it wasn't CMJ,who died this year. Also didn't Bannan slag off Brum on Facebook or something the moment he arrived? I took against him then.
No different to Murray in tennis. He'd play all day on court so technically his tennis was very good but would do little work in the gym so therefore his strength/stamina was shite compared to his peers. He has worked on that massively over the last 4-5 years which is why he now among the elite.
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During the last test I listened to someone on TMS during an interval, it might have been CMJ, talk about Joe Root. Apparently Joe Root is particularly good at going into the nets and working on his weaknesses before being told by the coaches that he ought to go work on these weaknesses. I can't imagine Barry Bannan doing the football equivalent of that.
Good point. But sadly it wasn't CMJ,who died this year. Also didn't Bannan slag off Brum on Facebook or something the moment he arrived? I took against him then.
Yes quite right about CMJ. Oops. Might have been Jonathan Agnew.
Bannan posted something on TwitFace about Brummie girls being rough or something in his early days.
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During the last test I listened to someone on TMS during an interval, it might have been CMJ, talk about Joe Root. Apparently Joe Root is particularly good at going into the nets and working on his weaknesses before being told by the coaches that he ought to go work on these weaknesses. I can't imagine Barry Bannan doing the football equivalent of that.
Good point. But sadly it wasn't CMJ,who died this year. Also didn't Bannan slag off Brum on Facebook or something the moment he arrived? I took against him then.
No different to Murray in tennis. He'd play all day on court so technically his tennis was very good but would do little work in the gym so therefore his strength/stamina was shite compared to his peers. He has worked on that massively over the last 4-5 years which is why he now among the elite.
There was something similar with Mo Farah (although maybe not instigated by him). Before joining Nike he could run all day long but he rarely won the top races. Nike got him working in the gym, working on his core and doing things other than running. Hey presto, work class athlete.
As there are so many obvious case studies it amazes me football and footballers seem so slow to embrace such voodoo techniques.
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Yes quite right about CMJ. Oops. Might have been Jonathan Agnew.
I think it was Vaughan. He's been a bit of a mentor for quite a while apparently and I remember him saying something very similar on TMS whilst I was listening.
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During the last test I listened to someone on TMS during an interval, it might have been CMJ, talk about Joe Root. Apparently Joe Root is particularly good at going into the nets and working on his weaknesses before being told by the coaches that he ought to go work on these weaknesses. I can't imagine Barry Bannan doing the football equivalent of that.
Good point. But sadly it wasn't CMJ,who died this year. Also didn't Bannan slag off Brum on Facebook or something the moment he arrived? I took against him then.
No different to Murray in tennis. He'd play all day on court so technically his tennis was very good but would do little work in the gym so therefore his strength/stamina was shite compared to his peers. He has worked on that massively over the last 4-5 years which is why he now among the elite.
There was something similar with Mo Farah (although maybe not instigated by him). Before joining Nike he could run all day long but he rarely won the top races. Nike got him working in the gym, working on his core and doing things other than running. Hey presto, work class athlete.
As there are so many obvious case studies it amazes me football and footballers seem so slow to embrace such voodoo techniques.
Not Nike, it was Alberto Salazar as his coach and the reason he moved to the USA.
With Murray, it was also a coach's impact, Ivan Lendl who IMO, has improved Murray's mental toughness.
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Not Nike, it was Alberto Salazar as his coach and the reason he moved to the USA.
Same horse, different jockey:
"Currently employed by Nike, Salazar has stayed connected with the sport as coach of the Nike Oregon Project. Aimed at producing Olympic-caliber athletes, project members who have trained under Salazar's tutelage include Alan Webb, Mo Farah, Galen Rupp, Adam Goucher, Kara Goucher, Dan Browne, Amy Yoder Begley, and Dathan Ritzenhein.[4]
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Hollywood pass.
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Have you noticed how the big Bookies are redeveloping and modernising their "shops" whilst other multi-national traders have long quit many of the High Streets?
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Aye. Bookies, payday loan firms and £1 bargain shops. The future of the highstreet.
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Aye. Bookies, payday loan firms and £1 bargain shops. The future of the highstreet.
You missed out the Charity Shops.
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I know size shouldn't matter, but football is a physical game and it does. A player like Bannan needs to be VERY good to make up for his size. He's good, but not very good, hence an issue straightaway. And positionally he's best in that deep lying midfield/playmaker role, which has a defensive element to it that his size hinders him with.
And then add to that his off the field issues.
He'll make a career for himself, but it won't be in the PL.
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I know size shouldn't matter, but football is a physical game and it does. A player like Bannan needs to be VERY good to make up for his size. He's good, but not very good, hence an issue straightaway. And positionally he's best in that deep lying midfield/playmaker role, which has a defensive element to it that his size hinders him with.
Exactly.
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Bit like Stephen Ireland, he isnt good enough with the ball to cover up for his painful limitations off the ball and acting the pr*ck off the pitch.
He had some good games for us but never did it consistently. Would recommend he stays clear of Blackburn though, a must is a manager that is likely to last more than a few weeks.
I cant help thinking that a root and branch review of our youth system is long overdue. Winning reserve and youths titles shouldnt be what its about and I think we have been guilty of focusing on that in the past. A lot of our players seems woefully short in some areas that should have been knocked out of them since they were 16 or 17. I'm not sure what was the point of Samir Carruthers for example last year not being out on loan getting the shit kicked out of him for a few months in the lower leagues.
Westwood for example seems far better coached than Bannan in getting in positions to receive the ball, knowing when to knock it long and short etc. Westwood is slow, lacks physical presence and isnt a threat from outside the box but he is clearly an intelligent lad and you can just sense in him that he will continue to improve. Bannan clearly has talent, I'm sure years back he was miles ahead of Westwood in terms of potential. But talent alone is only one of the attributes required to succeed, Bannan somewhere along the line failed to realise that. Maybe a spell suffering hard knocks at Crewe and lower league football would have done similar for Bannan years back rather than star at reserve and youth level.
Bannan seems like the typical star youths player who learned zilch about tactics and midfield play but instead relied on his wand of a left foot to make him a star. The wand of a left foot cant score goals, take set pieces and he never gets in positions to hurt opposition defences. Now he is 23 and all that potential seems to have evaporated. Not sure he has the desire to prove Lambert wrong but wish him the best.
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Joachim and Wright did okay for shortarses who weren't exactly top class players.
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Joachim and Wright did okay for shortarses who weren't exactly top class players.
Joachim had blistering pace and Wright worked really hard at his game. Neither of which you could say about Bannan.
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Joachim and Wright did okay for shortarses who weren't exactly top class players.
Joachim had blistering pace and Wright worked really hard at his game. Neither of which you could say about Bannan.
True, but the original claim was a player had to be very good to succeed if a shortarse, but that isn't strictly true.
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Joachim and Wright did okay for shortarses who weren't exactly top class players.
Joachim had blistering pace and Wright worked really hard at his game. Neither of which you could say about Bannan.
True, but the original claim was a player had to be very good to succeed if a shortarse, but that isn't strictly true.
Maybe not worded too well on my part:-
What I was getting at is that in a physical game like football if you are lacking in the physical attribute department (strength, height, pace) then you rely on your natural ability so much more that it needs to really be nop notch. Bannan's isn't.
Wright is a player that does disprove this slightly, but as I said he wasa model pro and made the most of his ability. Similar story for players like Dennis Wise.
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Dennis Wise was a twat on and off the pitch. Bannan was halfway there.
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Dennis Wise was a twat on and off the pitch. Bannan was halfway there.
Wise was very difficult to shake off the ball though. Plus his passing and set pieces were consistently good. Again, this is one thing Bannan could have really worked harder at, particularly on his physical side. He should have hit the gym harder. Improved his upper body strength.
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In terms of Wright and Joachim. You'd have to say that the two positions on the pitch where you generally see the shorter players make it, is fullback or striker. And yes, as pointed out, Joachim had pace and Wright worked his bollocks off.
I also think Joachim wouldn't make it in the top flight if he had been coming through in the last 10 years. The games different to when he was coming through. But that's for another discussion on another thread.
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He gone yet?
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From rumours I have heard, his 'mad' nights were slightly madder than some might think, and his antics were a little more dubious than just driving a golf cart on to the tee at The Belfry. The club will be well shot of him.
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Bit like Stephen Ireland, he isnt good enough with the ball to cover up for his painful limitations off the ball
Totally agree. In Premier League terms, he's nothing too special on the ball and the rest of his game is way short of that level. Saying that, I have nothing against the lad and wish him well in the future.
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Joachim and Wright did okay for shortarses who weren't exactly top class players.
Joachim was the standout player for the England U18 who won the European Championship in '93. A team that included Scholes ,G.Neville ,Fowler and Sol Campbell with Beckham not being good enough for selection.
Joachim also featured in the film 'Hannibal' sequel to 'silence of the Lambs',well some Italian cops were watching the FA Cup final on tv and Joachim is in close up.
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I hope no potential suitor is reading this or any other Bannan thread.
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I hope no potential suitor is reading this or any other Bannan thread.
Or watching him play for that matter!
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Joachim and Wright did okay for shortarses who weren't exactly top class players.
Joachim was the standout player for the England U18 who won the European Championship in '93. A team that included Scholes ,G.Neville ,Fowler and Sol Campbell with Beckham not being good enough for selection.
Joachim also featured in the film 'Hannibal' sequel to 'silence of the Lambs',well some Italian cops were watching the FA Cup final on tv and Joachim is in close up.
After watching the 1000 goals DVD it shows the Joachim was quite a good player. Scored some really important goals for us.
As for Bannan, he can fuck off. Not good enough. Not comitted enough.
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Fun fact of the day: Joachim has a better goals to games ratio for us than Gabby has. Surprised me considering how often JJ was on the bench from memory.
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Fun fact of the day: Joachim has a better goals to games ratio for us than Gabby has. Surprised me considering how often JJ was on the bench from memory.
Doesn't surprise me when you consider how many times Gabby was on the wing.
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Fun fact of the day: Joachim has a better goals to games ratio for us than Gabby has. Surprised me considering how often JJ was on the bench from memory.
Doesn't surprise me when you consider how many times Gabby was on the wing.
Which is probably cancelled out by Joachim making over a 3rd of his appearances from the bench.
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Fun fact of the day: Joachim has a better goals to games ratio for us than Gabby has. Surprised me considering how often JJ was on the bench from memory.
Doesn't surprise me when you consider how many times Gabby was on the wing.
Which is probably cancelled out by Joachim making over a 3rd of his appearances from the bench.
Which is cancelled out by...ah fuck it. One of us has got to stop repeating ourselves.
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Dennis Wise was a twat on and off the pitch. Bannan was halfway there.
Wise was very difficult to shake off the ball though. Plus his passing and set pieces were consistently good. Again, this is one thing Bannan could have really worked harder at, particularly on his physical side. He should have hit the gym harder. Improved his upper body strength.
Don't get me wrong, Wise was good to have on your side.
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Dennis Wise was a twat on and off the pitch. Bannan was halfway there.
Wise was very difficult to shake off the ball though. Plus his passing and set pieces were consistently good. Again, this is one thing Bannan could have really worked harder at, particularly on his physical side. He should have hit the gym harder. Improved his upper body strength.
Don't get me wrong, Wise was good to have on your side.
And don't get me wrong, I know he's a twat! ;)