Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: warleyboy on July 20, 2013, 08:25:44 PM
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http://www1.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/competitions/premier-league/8833217/villa-draw-with-wycombe
How bad is our defense.
Surely Lambo can see our weakness from set pieces, time and time again.
What were Vlaar and Clarke thinking for that second goal ?
So what's the answer, and who currently is our best pairing.
This has got to be addressed before the start of the season.
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It's pre-season.
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It's pre-season so not really worth panicking about yet, but if we do defend this season like last, we're going to struggle.
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It's pre-season.
Correct, but take a look at the DVD of previous season, does it have an ounce of similarity about it.
Of course it does.
It maybe pre season, but like the subject matter, "ongoing defensive frailties"
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Even so I think defensively we need work. My mate said the other day he didn't think he could set up a defence and I think he's right. Unless we sort it we'll struggle next season
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Norwich were hardly great at defending when he was there
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31 games since our last clean sheet, including the 4 friendlies so far.
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How about giving Paul McGrath a call and getting him on the coaching staff, or someone of similar vain.
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Mate and I at the game were stunned at the poor quality of the defending at the corner - we failed to attack the ball at the near post, and again at the far post.
We were stuffed by a pretty run-of-the-mill routine executed by a pretty poor side.
We need to better than this at set pieces and I hope we will be by August 17th.
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31 games since our last clean sheet, including the 4 friendlies so far.
Exactly Mr Shin, this is no coincidence, and how many goals have we allowed in from corners.
I'm a massive fan of Lambo and what he is achieving, but it has to be dealt with, and quickly.
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First goal was a freak! Second goal could've been closed out - poor marking. Need Okore to add some steel in the middle of defence. On a different note the away kit is awful especially Brad's "pink" goalie top!
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How about giving Paul McGrath a call and getting him on the coaching staff, or someone of similar vain.
The thing with Paul McGrath is that he was such a naturally gifted footballer and his talents were such that IMO they couldn't be taught. I think in interview once when asked how did he find himself in such and such a position to make such and such a tackle? he replied I don't know.
I had a young lad playing for me a few years ago who was much the same. He was a natural and it was my belief that he could have had a future in the game but he wasn't interested. I take your point though, we need someone with experience that has the ability to communicate the art of defending.
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I like the look of Okore but it doesn't mean he's goin to settle immediately and end our defensive problems
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How about giving Paul McGrath a call and getting him on the coaching staff, or someone of similar vain.
The thing with Paul McGrath is that he was such a naturally gifted footballer and his talents were such that IMO they couldn't be taught. I think in interview once when asked how did he find himself in such and such a position to make such and such a tackle? he replied I don't know.
I had a young lad playing for me a few years ago who was much the same. He was a natural and it was my belief that he could have had a future in the game but he wasn't interested. I take your point though, we need someone with experience that has the ability to communicate the art of defending.
Totally agree Dave, I think the best players are naturally talented, and happen to be in the right place at the right time.
But, it wouldn't hurt to have that input, especially at the academy levels.
I hate to say it, but I'm not sure that concrete Ron cuts the mustard for me, I would expect this guy to be leading the line, a Mellberg or Laursen type.
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When they scored their second goal I was immediately transported back to the Bradford games. A poorish team have a bit of a strength and use it to exploit our weakness, almost at will. And we seem to be unable to do anything about it.
Vlaar and Clark didn't win that much in the air today and looked pretty ruffled by their big centre forward on a regular basis.
Agreed that organisation is what's needed most. We looked a bit of a shambles at times.
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God forbid, Tekkers had signed for spuds, how would Vlaar and Clarke coped with the beast.
I hasten to think how embarrased we would have looked...
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Lets not get too worked up about things yet people - poor goal to concede but we are still mixing and matching at the moment. Lets see what Okore is like and who he starts off with and how we perform then before getting too depressed.
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Just preseason but yeah. Would be nice one if these games to just pick a half and shut up shop as defensive practice. We need that in our locker. The way ManU did it to us after going up 3-0 was a great demonstration.
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As has been said elsewhere, Vlaar and Clarke are our worst central pairing. Neither of them has the swiftness of movement to the ball or the physical attributes to win it if they do get anywhere near it. Both are just beaten so easily by moderate physical opposition.
Nathan Baker looks as if he can mix it but needs to come on a lot this season, and if Okore does not step up to the plate from the off then I can foresee some nasty results coming our way.
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Lets not get too worked up about things yet people - poor goal to concede but we are still mixing and matching at the moment. Lets see what Okore is like and who he starts off with and how we perform then before getting too depressed.
Understand what your saying Villan, but it is something in pre season I was expecting to see improve after our poor goal conceding record of last.
Like I say, PL is on top of things, the Benteke saga proves that, but I just hope he can make some headway with it.
There are going to be some games in this upcoming season when we are not going to hit the back of the net, but if we can keep a clean sheet, at least we can come away with a valuable point.
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Danny Shittu is available ;D
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Danny Shittu is available ;D
I can see it now...
"Shittu on for Villa, Shittu on'f Villa tonight"....
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Lets not get too worked up about things yet people - poor goal to concede but we are still mixing and matching at the moment. Lets see what Okore is like and who he starts off with and how we perform then before getting too depressed.
Understand what your saying Villan, but it is something in pre season I was expecting to see improve after our poor goal conceding record of last.
Like I say, PL is on top of things, the Benteke saga proves that, but I just hope he can make some headway with it.
There are going to be some games in this upcoming season when we are not going to hit the back of the net, but if we can keep a clean sheet, at least we can come away with a valuable point.
Okore has barely played, lets wait until things are more settled and see how things are. I remember the sty crew winning some massive trophy in Spain pre-season many years ago and they were going to finish top six. They didnt win a game for months and got relegated. Lets iron things out now and go into season prepared
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Ongoing defensive frailties ...FFS doom mongers are up early this season!
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Ongoing defensive frailties ...FFS doom mongers are up early this season!
Olaftab, not a doom monger, just want to see some sort of improvements on last season.
Last seasons defending, poor, pre season defending so far, poor....
Need I say more...
Oh and yes Okore looks like he could be a quality defender, that still leaves inadequacy in Vlaar, Clarke, Baker.
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where in castle brom you from olaftab?
warleyboy, the first choice centre backs have not been decided yet, probably wont for another couple of games, take the positives that we are still unbeaten pre-season :)
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The issue at that corner, same as when we were conceding from them last season (which dried up a fair bit from February) is that we don't attack the ball well enough. It's the same reason we concede from crosses too often in general. Clark and Vlaar are both more comfortable alongside someone more aggressive (it's similar to when we had Cuellar and Davies at the back after Laursen broke down). Okore and Baker seem to be the aggressive defenders, with Clark and Vlaar the organisers, I think we'll see them form definite pairings as the season goes on, with 1 from each pot being picked regularly.
From the point of getting a coach, given what the deficiency is badges, etc. Laursen would be the obvious choice.
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Absolutely true Luton, don't get me wrong, I'm really enjoying what's happening at VP, and yes we are unbeaten :).
But the nagging issues are still currently there, and our pre season teams have been nothing short of unspectacular.
Can you put hand on heart and wager that we will not concede a goal against Luton on Tuesday night.
And we are talking Luton town from the conference league.
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warleyboy, I agree with what you are saying, what I will say is Okore has not been there except for one half I think and maybe he is the attacking centre back as in going for the ball. I have a lot of faith in Lambert (didnt after Bradford) and think he can sort things out. I enjoy his football style and yes, I would rather now win 3-2 than 1-0, though will be worried. I actually enjoy watching Villa again now
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If one more fucker spells Clark's name incorrectly I call for a ban ;-)
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Wycombe's second reminded me of Bradford, shudder!
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31 games since our last clean sheet, including the 4 friendlies so far.
I think this point tells the whole story. Ye its pre-season but we still do not seem to have any dominating control in the CB position. Okore looks likely to be the power house with pace. But only Baker has any dominance in aerial battles .........
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Probably over thinking things, but after a brilliant season Guzan started to flap quite a lot in the run in to the season. I hope he's back to his best
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I'm not worried at all, our form the last 3 months of the season was a vast improvement and gets us well inside the top ten over a season.
Those 3 months included our defence you know, so don't worry.
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31 games since our last clean sheet, including the 4 friendlies so far.
Agree with most of you. Lamberts coaching staff have shown no inclination of being capable of doing their job correctly. Firstly at Norwich and now at Villa Park. They cannot sort out a watertight defence.
Its very worrying.
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I don't rate Clark as a CB, never looks confident.
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If one more fucker spells Clark's name incorrectly I call for a ban ;-)
or spells defence...defense.
Unless its Randy of course!
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Let's not panic yet and we'll see what happens.
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do we think there is more business to be done ???
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do we think there is more business to be done ???
Hoping so moley, wondering whether PL is looking at the bigger picture, seeing how we fare in pre season.
Then hopefully sell Bent,Ireland in the coming weeks, and snap someone up later in he transfer window.
I think Okore being injured has put a spanner in the works, would like to know where we are with all theses niggling injuries.
Just a food for thought, why so many injuries so early on, is this German tour to intense, surely it's a slow build up entering a new season....
I've played a pretty good standard of basketball in my time and you was never thrown in the deep end upon return of a new season, it was a gradual process readying all for first game.
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Even so I think defensively we need work. My mate said the other day he didn't think he could set up a defence and I think he's right. Unless we sort it we'll struggle next season
In fact there is proof that Lambert can set up a side defensively. In his first season at Wycombe they finished 12th with the 6th best defensive record. Next season they finished 7th with the 5th best defence. At Colchester he came 12th with the defence again doing better with the 9th best record. Beginning of next season he took his mid-table side to Norwich,previously of the Championship,and put seven past them at Carrow Road.Without that score line his Norwich side would have had the best defensive record in that league.Turning round a defence that leaks 7 at home into the meanest is some achievement.
The return match ? Norwich scored 5 without reply.
In the Championship ,a higher league of course, Norwich's defence was the third best.In the Premiership,the defence helped them stay up,the 3 relegated sides had worse defensive records. Lambert has had to work to a modest budget at both Villa and Norwich.He can only work with what he's got or can afford to buy.If he had £20m to spend on a defender,I'm sure we would concede less.
What is of the most significance is the improvement each year in the fortunes of his 3 previous clubs.We mocked Savage's prediction but he was right that the players that Lambert inherited were relegation material.
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Correction,Norwich had the 8th best defensive record in the Championship,but still a praiseworthy achievement for a newly promoted side.
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I will wait and see what our first choice back four does with both Sylla and Westwood in front of them, in a competative game before I start to worry.
Are people really questionning Guzan too? Yesh.
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Correction,Norwich had the 8th best defensive record in the Championship,but still a praiseworthy achievement for a newly promoted side.
Agree claret, PL does his work quietly behind the scenes and really does not have the monies he requires to make a quick fix.
Again, I just feel that this is now where he needs to make an impact, Vlaar and Clarke do not seem to be ideally suited together, Vlaar does not seem to be imposing himself enough, and unluckily for PL, Okore is injured already.
The last 3 months of last season were very enjoyable although pant seeping sometimes, our attacking was nothing short of outstanding but feel that we were always never safe with letting goals in the wrong end, (with the exception of the Sunderland game, lol).
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We'll just outscore everyone. Chill.
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If one more fucker spells Clark's name incorrectly I call for a ban ;-)
or spells defence...defense.
Unless its Randy of course!
I do that one all the time thsnks to the auto correct on my tablet, I got it over here and the only English option was US. I'm forever removing z's from work documents as well.
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We'll just outscore everyone. Chill.
I think that's the Lambert's plan. 90 minutes of gung-ho football. Some we'll win, some we'll get stuffed. Hopefully we'll win more than the stuffings.
Cue posts screaming "at least it's entertaining".
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We'll just outscore everyone. Chill.
I think that's the Lambert's plan. 90 minutes of gung-ho football. Some we'll win, some we'll get stuffed. Hopefully we'll win more than the stuffings.
Cue posts screaming "at least it's entertaining".
Rudy, I think we have played some entertaining stuff within those last 3 months, and I'm sure that is going to continue.
But there has to come a time to shore it up a little.
Take for example, our first game against Arsenal, I believe we will get a goal out of that game.
How great would it be to hold strong, take the barrage, and after 90 mins, walk away with 3 points.
Currently do not see it within our locker, but worked on by the coaching staff, it could.
We have a hell of a keeper in Brad and Jed looks promising.
CB's need to get tough and resilient, be aware on set pieces, communicate and stand strong...
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If he had £20m to spend on a defender...
He'd spend £2m of it and tell Randy not to worry about it.
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Although it is pre season, we still look vunerable on set pieces. It really does need to be addressed.
UTV!!
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How about a thread discussing our great attacking play? Always so negative on here!
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We'll just outscore everyone. Chill.
I think that's the Lambert's plan. 90 minutes of gung-ho football. Some we'll win, some we'll get stuffed. Hopefully we'll win more than the stuffings.
Cue posts screaming "at least it's entertaining".
Rudy, I think we have played some entertaining stuff within those last 3 months, and I'm sure that is going to continue.
But there has to come a time to shore it up a little.
Take for example, our first game against Arsenal, I believe we will get a goal out of that game.
How great would it be to hold strong, take the barrage, and after 90 mins, walk away with 3 points.
Currently do not see it within our locker, but worked on by the coaching staff, it could.
We have a hell of a keeper in Brad and Jed looks promising.
CB's need to get tough and resilient, be aware on set pieces, communicate and stand strong...
I wholeheartedly agree. The defence is my only reservation regarding Lambert. I have a horrible feeling he won't sort it out which will be a great shame as the team he's building and the style of play are exactly what I want and love to see. Almost all managers/coaches build from the back, Lambert seems to be doing the opposite. It's worth recalling just how many additional goals we would have suffered last season if it hadn't been for the brilliance of Brad Guzan.
My guess is Lambert will bring in another centre half, probably on loan, before the end of August.
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I think it is a legitimate question to be honest. It was clearly our main achilles heal last year and to have concerns that it hasn't been addressed properly over the summer is only natural.
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How about a thread discussing our great attacking play? Always so negative on here!
If that's how you see it, that's your choice, so go open up a new thread.
Nothing wrong with constructive criticism, I think you will find that we have had a defensive issue all season, and my feelings are that we need to attempt to start making some headway.
And I for one enjoy reading different aspects of how to approach the matter in question.
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How about a thread discussing our great attacking play? Always so negative on here!
31 games without a clean sheet is kind of hard to ignore.
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Indeed, 'tis a legitimate concern. A lot's going to ride on how Okore takes to the Prem and if we can cut out the silly mistakes.
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We'll just outscore everyone. Chill.
I think that's the Lambert's plan. 90 minutes of gung-ho football. Some we'll win, some we'll get stuffed. Hopefully we'll win more than the stuffings.
Cue posts screaming "at least it's entertaining".
Less of the "at least" please! :)
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We'll just outscore everyone. Chill.
I think that's the Lambert's plan. 90 minutes of gung-ho football. Some we'll win, some we'll get stuffed. Hopefully we'll win more than the stuffings.
Cue posts screaming "at least it's entertaining".
Less of the "at least" please! :)
Ha! It's certainly entertaining for the neutrals. I'm struggling to recall a season in recent history that was so nerve racking, where every game, Sunderland apart, my heart was in my mouth, a real emotional roller coaster that left me feeling at the end both physically and mentally drained. Being a Villa fan should come with a public health warning.
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How about a thread discussing our great attacking play? Always so negative on here!
31 games without a clean sheet is kind of hard to ignore.
It is and we seem to be expecting miracles from Okore. I hope he comes out of the traps at full pace.
Ron Vlaar is neither dominating in the air or aggressive in his tackling. Just about average for me.
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I'm only going to speak for myself here, but as i've accepted we're not going to win the league anytime soon, as it's a serious outlay for me to buy a season ticket i'll settle for Villa being entertaining, if unpredictable. I'm looking forward to going to VP this season more than I have for ages, I reckon we'll dish out a few beatings, play some good stuff and probably have another Spurs/Wigan week and make some McGrath awful clangers.
I hope i've explained that well enough that it makes sense.
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I'm only going to speak for myself here, but as i've accepted we're not going to win the league anytime soon, as it's a serious outlay for me to buy a season ticket i'll settle for Villa being entertaining, if unpredictable. I'm looking forward to going to VP this season more than I have for ages, I reckon we'll dish out a few beatings, play some good stuff and probably have another Spurs/Wigan week and make some McGrath awful clangers.
I hope i've explained that well enough that it makes sense.
There's a really good Jorge Valdano quote I can't remember verbatim, but he basically says that in a 20 team league, only one wins - and if the others were just 'playing for results', then what did they contribute?
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How about a thread discussing our great attacking play? Always so negative on here!
31 games without a clean sheet is kind of hard to ignore.
It should not be ignored and Lambert has responded with the signings of Okore and Luna.Also a more physical element in Sylla and Bacuna has been added to the midfield which should mean greater protection for the defence.Clark and Baker are young and might improve to the required standard.He might still be searching for another central defender.
Other positions need to be improved,but it is possible that those roles could be filled adequately by our new signings or one of our talented youngsters.In that case,extra cash could be put to buying a new centre-back.
The other solution ,which I don't think Lambert will try,is to play Herd there.An industrious but very limited midfielder,he is ,surprisingly for his size ,very good in the air.He reads the game better than Clarke and is ultra competitive,to the point of being rash.I'm thinking of a home game v Wolves where in mid-flight he almost decapitated an attacker,which McCarthy correctly pointed out should have been a penalty.
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As I see it, the extra goals we concede due to being a good attacking outfit I can live with. If we let one in because Lowton's out of position after losing the ball when attacking, so be it.
What I can't live with is the basic errors when we are defending that also cost us goals. It wouldn't effect us going forward to mark better at corners, for example.
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If Benteke and Helenius are on the pitch surely we will be better equiped to not conceed from corners and set pieces ?
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If Benteke and Helenius are on the pitch surely we will be better equiped to not conceed from corners and set pieces ?
Benteke isn't as good defensively as Carew or Hesk were, but that said I'd rather we had him in our box when we defend set pieces. Helenius should prove useful too.
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As I see it, the extra goals we concede due to being a good attacking outfit I can live with. If we let one in because Lowton's out of position after losing the ball when attacking, so be it.
What I can't live with is the basic errors when we are defending that also cost us goals. It wouldn't effect us going forward to mark better at corners, for example.
This is our biggest problem. The amount of silly free kicks we've given away in dangerous areas in the last couple of years has been ridiculous. Our inability to defend these is just asking for trouble. It's all about eradicating it from these players, hoping they mature and hone their decision making. That said, in 11/12 it was senior "pros" like Hutton, Warnock and Collins who were consistently guilty of giving away pens and frees in needless situations.
My pet hate is one of our defenders chasing an attacking into a blind alley. They can't go anyway but the defender (Bennett's bad at this but getting a little better) still decides to hack them down rather than just stay on their feet and try and box them in a corner or force them to pass backwards.
Cut out needless errors and we'll shave 20 goals off our against column. Then we just have to worry most about set pieces. Then limiting them as much as poss is a good idea.
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As I see it, the extra goals we concede due to being a good attacking outfit I can live with. If we let one in because Lowton's out of position after losing the ball when attacking, so be it.
What I can't live with is the basic errors when we are defending that also cost us goals. It wouldn't effect us going forward to mark better at corners, for example.
Hit the nail on the head concrete.
If we are playing entertaining football and happen to lose it in open play, shit happens.
Its from these bloody corners, every time we concede, I feel my balls rise into my mouth,
you can feel the anxiety around VP, so the players must feel it to.
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Does anyone know whether we concede more free kicks/corners than other teams?
Just a thought but maybe we're statistically okay at defending corners, but its the sheer number we concede which is the problem.
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Does anyone know whether we concede more free kicks/corners than other teams?
Just a thought but maybe we're statistically okay at defending corners, but its the sheer number we concede which is the problem.
There you go... not completely up to date but it gives you a gist.
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/special-feature-aston-villa-writer-1295323
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Does anyone know whether we concede more free kicks/corners than other teams?
Just a thought but maybe we're statistically okay at defending corners, but its the sheer number we concede which is the problem.
There you go... not completely up to date but it gives you a gist.
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/special-feature-aston-villa-writer-1295323
hmmm, thanks. Good read that.
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What I want to see is that the players have learnt from their mistakes last year. Clark shouldn't mess about and put pressure on himself, Baker should have developed a better understanding of positioning, Vlaar should concentrate, Lowton needs to ensure he doesn't get caught at the back post and Bennett needs to work on his positioning.
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What I want to see is that the players have learnt from their mistakes last year. Clark shouldn't mess about and put pressure on himself, Baker should have developed a better understanding of positioning, Vlaar should concentrate, Lowton needs to ensure he doesn't get caught at the back post and Bennett needs to work on his positioning.
I agree with all of that except Bennett..... He should be on the bench!!!
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Bennett is my big concern. Maybe having Luna as competition will make him more focused on all aspects of his game. Vlaar really has to get his act together as his marking and lack of aerial dominance is worrying .........
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What we need at centre half is someone like Kent Neilsen or Chris Nichol or Martin Laursen who can dominate their opposition number. Ron Vlaar hasnt yet shown that he has the ability to do this.
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What we need at centre half is someone like Kent Neilsen or Chris Nichol or Martin Laursen who can dominate their opposition number. Ron Vlaar hasnt yet shown that he has the ability to do this.
Ron, I do not think that Vlaar has it in his locker, he is not a stand out leader for me.
I know Okore is young, but I'm hoping he becomes our, Laursen, McGrath, Nielson, Mellberg, Southgate etc.
Then hopefully Vlaar can help out and hopefully do a better job.
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32 games now.
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Terrible at the back again
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Lambert out!
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Hmmm they're not learning, we really need to do serious work on our defending. It's not good enough at all.
I retract that statement having seen the team we put out.
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More worrying now that Vlaar and Clark are involved.
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IS IT TIME TO PANIC YET :o
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It's certainly not time to panic but our defence was hopeless all last season and it still looks completely shit
I mean its just constant basic errors time and again
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Sack the board!
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We do look so frail and it is concern for me. If it isn't sorted it will undermine the season.
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can we ask George Graham for some input
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I just don't think Clark and Baker are good enough. I also think Vlaar is a Championship standard defender at best if I'm being totally honest. He's not dominent in the air, he's okay on the ball, and he's not as hard as you'd think. The odd thunderbolt papers over a lot of cracks. He's an indication at the sort of quality level the Dutch have in defence at the moment, and also why they were so dire in the Euro's.
Herd is definitely not a center half either. If he's not covering right back I don't see what he'll offer the team. Though at the moment he'd be ahead of KEA in the midfield pecking order for me.
The organisation needs to improve dramatically but more so sloppy mistakes is a big problem. The second goal today just shows how abysmal the chemistry between Vlaar and Clark is. Clark is also woeful in the air. Utterly woeful.
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I just don't think Clark and Baker are good enough. I also think Vlaar is a Championship standard defender at best if I'm being totally honest. He's not dominent in the air, he's okay on the ball, and he's not as hard as you'd think. The odd thunderbolt papers over a lot of cracks. He's an indication at the sort of quality level the Dutch have in defence at the moment, and also why they were so dire in the Euro's.
Herd is definitely not a center half either. If he's not covering right back I don't see what he'll offer the team. Though at the moment he'd be ahead of KEA in the midfield pecking order for me.
The organisation needs to improve dramatically but more so sloppy mistakes is a big problem. The second goal today just shows how abysmal the chemistry between Vlaar and Clark is. Clark is also woeful in the air. Utterly woeful.
On the whole I agree. Vlaar is by no means the Mellberg/Laursen figure that many of us thought he would be.
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Vlaar is by no means the Mellberg/Laursen figure that many of us thought he would be.
I don't think he's even the Ronny Johnsen figure.
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2 solid centrebacks and this team would be so much better. Clark, Baker and Vlaar make too many mistakes. Don't know why Lambert is being so stubborn with the defence as its clear they're just not good enough.
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Vlaar is by no means the Mellberg/Laursen figure that many of us thought he would be.
I don't think he's even the Ronny Johnsen figure.
Well, can I get at least get a Fred Turnbull?
Throw me a freakin' bone, here!
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It may 'only' be pre season but our inability to keep a clean sheet s a real worry. We shouldn't have to score twice to win a game.
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Gaffer's verdict: It was great to see Benteke back
Paul Lambert was thrilled to see talismanic striker Christian Benteke back in action as Villa continued their pre-season preparations at Luton.
Benteke played 45 minutes at Kenilworth Road as Lambert's side went down 2-0.
Lambert wasn't concerned about the loss, insisting the game was about fitness levels going into the 2013-14 Barclays Premier League season.
What did please him, though, was the sight of Benteke in the claret and blue once again.
He told AVTV: "It was just another fitness thing tonight. Luton did really fine against us.
"The pleasing thing was Christian being back. Some of his touches were brilliant.
"He had 45 minutes. He's only done a bit of training. He's still got to work on match fitness but that 45 minutes will do him the world of good."
Lambert is hopeful of having "one or two" injury casualties back for Friday evening's encounter with Crewe at Gresty Road, the sixth match of Villa's pre-season schedule.
He added: "We have too many injures at the minute. That's the frustrating thing.
"When you look at the ones missing - the likes of Okore, Tonev, Agbonlahor, Weimann, Helenius, Bennett - there are a lot of big players absent.
"We want to get them back.
"Hopefully there might be one or two back for Friday. We will have to see how that progresses and see how it goes.
"Once we start to get everybody back, we will be pretty strong.
"But you're going to get injuries. That's the nature of the game."
It really is a lot of the same old same old, I think we all understand that pre season is very hit and miss, and absolutely vital that the players get to full fitness.
But again, this was Luton, surely our reserves should be expecting to compete with these guys, let alone our first team, thankfully didn't watch the game, but defending again is being
mentioned.
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I'm not gong to freak out about a friendly but I'm not at all convinced about our defence.
Not yet. Okore may go a long way to settling the nerves but ts unfair to expect a 20 year old to be the saviour.
Baker is promising, Vlaar and Clark are suspect, Okore's an unknown in ths league. We definitely need another centre half.
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Yes me too pre season and fitness and getting some matches result un important. who will recall this when we take on and shut out arsenal suraez and co in a 0-1 victory on august !
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Yes me too pre season and fitness and getting some matches result un important. who will recall this when we take on and shut out arsenal suraez and co in a 0-1 victory on august !
Suarez will be banned for that game I think?
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Yes me too pre season and fitness and getting some matches result un important. who will recall this when we take on and shut out arsenal suraez and co in a 0-1 victory on august !
Suarez will be banned for that game I think?
Won't Benteke also be banned for this game? 3 match ban for the Chelsea match sending off?
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Yes me too pre season and fitness and getting some matches result un important. who will recall this when we take on and shut out arsenal suraez and co in a 0-1 victory on august !
Suarez will be banned for that game I think?
Won't Benteke also be banned for this game? 3 match ban for the Chelsea match sending off?
Good point. I think so.
edit: Guess not. Thats good news.
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Yes me too pre season and fitness and getting some matches result un important. who will recall this when we take on and shut out arsenal suraez and co in a 0-1 victory on august !
Suarez will be banned for that game I think?
Won't Benteke also be banned for this game? 3 match ban for the Chelsea match sending off?
Two yellows so just one match.
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Tbf I thought Baker was OK tonight, as I certainly wouldn't pick him out as being somehow worse than anybody else!
From what I saw, Luton organised their defence (all 11 of them) to be better at withstanding sustained attrition and every player seemed to have a job to do. They were more vulnerable when an attack came at top speed down the wing. I still don't know how at least 2 shots across their goal didn't go in, but there you go.
Our defence was struggling with players who are not used to each other as a team, maybe, and the sooner the crocks get back, the sooner PL and his coaches can establish the jobs and the players can build the understanding and experience between them. I hope!
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At this time our defence leaks goals faster than a sieve. Since our first season with the Collins & Dunne partnership we have not had dominating CB's. Vlaar has yet to show the kind of dominant play needed in the premiership. Baker shows flashes of things to come. Clarke and others are still suspect to ball watching and missing the potential movement of opponents and not man marking and reading ahead of the threats.
WE are all excited by the prospect of Okore filling in some of the gaps, but, if Okore misses several games during the season who are we going to turn to to fill the other CB position?
There is no shadow of a doubt that we need at least one Premiership quality CB. We can go on discussing this until the cows come home and the dire need will still be there.
With the return of Benteke and existing and new players that PL has acquired for the Midfield and Attacking positions I believe that apart from finding one more creative midfielder we will score our fair share of goals this season. It will however all come to nought if the sieve isnt replaced by a REAL Concrete Wall.
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for me it is Baker and another for the centre halves pairing and Luna and Lowton either side.
do the simple things well and hopefully we will be alright.......the clean sheets will come.
UTV
The Doc
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"Lambert wasn't concerned about the loss, insisting the game was about fitness levels going into the 2013-14 Barclays Premier League season."
Feck me - what about the pride in wearing the shirt Paul?
As stated, our reserves or even youth team should be beating Luton.
Cut out the poor excuses about injuries etc and just sort out that defence otherwise there will be a repeat of the hammerings from last year.
Still - we will be fine and we go again
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It's only a friendly, pride in the shirt sounds a bit extreme in that context.
The comedy defending, though, I've had enough of that already!
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If it's just about fitness levels why is there a charge on the door?
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If it's just about fitness levels why is there a charge on the door?
Because it helps clubs like Wycombe, Luton and Crewe out financially.
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I think our big hope as a centre half pairing will be Baker playing the tough man role and Okore playing the clever stuff.
Vlaar is an average bog standard Championship centre half.
Jaap Stam he aint!
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If it's just about fitness levels why is there a charge on the door?
Because it helps clubs like Wycombe, Luton and Crewe out financially.
So the Malaga game is free?
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I think our big hope as a centre half pairing will be Baker playing the tough man role and Okore playing the clever stuff.
Vlaar is an average bog standard Championship centre half.
Jaap Stam he aint!
I think he'll start with Vlaar and Okore and see how they get on. I do like Baker though.
While I'd be more confident if we brought in a Lescott or similar, I very much doubt we'll see anymore CBs signed now.
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If it's just about fitness levels why is there a charge on the door?
Because it helps clubs like Wycombe, Luton and Crewe out financially.
So the Malaga game is free?
Unfortunatley not.
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I don't really see why there should be no charge because these games are about fitness, mostly.
Everyone knows the score before they buy tickets, that there will be 2,000 substitutions, that it's going to be very casual, that it's a non-competitive match.
I do think we should try to play more home friendlies, though. We seem to have at the very most one every other summer or something. Don't know if maybe that's to do with policing levels / other external factors, though.
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Perhaps they shouldn't be free, after all there's stewarding and other costs to take into account. But fans don't turn up in their hundreds/thousands to watch training sessions at Bodymoor Heath, which really are all about fitness. There must be some small element of competition in these friendlies, no matter how we like to dress up a defeat. Otherwise few people would turn up and there wouldn't be 20-page plus match threads on here.
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"Lambert wasn't concerned about the loss, insisting the game was about fitness levels going into the 2013-14 Barclays Premier League season."
Feck me - what about the pride in wearing the shirt Paul?
As stated, our reserves or even youth team should be beating Luton.
Cut out the poor excuses about injuries etc and just sort out that defence otherwise there will be a repeat of the hammerings from last year.
Still - we will be fine and we go again
It might only be about fitness levels, but surely by now the "second" team, who knew they were on the pitch for only the last half hour, should be able to go flat out for 30 minutes. That, added to their supposed superior ability being PL players, should surely be enough to put a Conference team to bed.
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I'm sure there is some competition involved, deep down, really, but you won't find any manager admitting it when they've just lost to a bunch of fat blokes from the conference.
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"Lambert wasn't concerned about the loss, insisting the game was about fitness levels going into the 2013-14 Barclays Premier League season."
Feck me - what about the pride in wearing the shirt Paul?
As stated, our reserves or even youth team should be beating Luton.
Cut out the poor excuses about injuries etc and just sort out that defence otherwise there will be a repeat of the hammerings from last year.
Still - we will be fine and we go again
It might only be about fitness levels, but surely by now the "second" team, who knew they were on the pitch for only the last half hour, should be able to go flat out for 30 minutes. That, added to their supposed superior ability being PL players, should surely be enough to put a Conference team to bed.
Maybe the team that played the first 60 mins consisted of those he felt needed the extra fitness work most (Benteke), plus a few he wanted a longer look at (hence there being lots of kids in it).
I don't really care too much about the result. I'd rather we won - I want us to win every game we play - but losing doesn't really mean that much in the bigger picture.
It was the sight of the defence blundering around *still* that worried me, and our run of matches without a clean sheet hitting 32, and going back to the start of December last year.
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Plus teh sides we are playing start their season earlier than ours don't they? So they will be ahead of us in terms of fitness.
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I don't really see why there should be no charge because these games are about fitness, mostly.
Everyone knows the score before they buy tickets, that there will be 2,000 substitutions, that it's going to be very casual, that it's a non-competitive match.
I do think we should try to play more home friendlies, though. We seem to have at the very most one every other summer or something. Don't know if maybe that's to do with policing levels / other external factors, though.
Yep, just be grateful that its not like the NFL where Season Ticket holders have to buy there seat for pre-season games at the full price.
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I am all for his buy em young policy. But in the case of the central defence I think he should spend a bit and bring in some experience. The final piece if the jigsaw.
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Plus teh sides we are playing start their season earlier than ours don't they? So they will be ahead of us in terms of fitness.
Sorry Peter, do not agree with that.
Aston Villa have well paid, full time athletes that train everyday.
I would think that Luton players also have full or part time jobs as well as getting into shape.
There can be no excuses, we lost to a non league outfit. Again highlighting our poor defending, which has no detriment to our fitness levels, it's just pure and simply bad defending and not good enough.
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As far as I know Luton are full time professionals.
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As far as I know Luton are full time professionals.
Most Conference clubs are full-time. Luton certainly are.
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If it's just about fitness levels why is there a charge on the door?
Because it helps clubs like Wycombe, Luton and Crewe out financially.
So the Malaga game is free?
Unfortunatley not.
The Malaga game will be about more than fitness levels anyway. That will be the week before the Prem starts.
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I don't really see why there should be no charge because these games are about fitness, mostly.
Everyone knows the score before they buy tickets, that there will be 2,000 substitutions, that it's going to be very casual, that it's a non-competitive match.
I do think we should try to play more home friendlies, though. We seem to have at the very most one every other summer or something. Don't know if maybe that's to do with policing levels / other external factors, though.
Yep, just be grateful that its not like the NFL where Season Ticket holders have to buy there seat for pre-season games at the full price.
Evesham are charging full price for their pre-seasons.
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If it's just about fitness levels why is there a charge on the door?
Because it helps clubs like Wycombe, Luton and Crewe out financially.
So the Malaga game is free?
Unfortunatley not.
The Malaga game will be about more than fitness levels anyway. That will be the week before the Prem starts.
You still have running costs to cover.
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Plus teh sides we are playing start their season earlier than ours don't they? So they will be ahead of us in terms of fitness.
True. But that doesnt really explain why West Ham beat Hamburg away last night while we couldn't beat three lower division German sides.
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Manure have lost to Yokohama F·Marinos & Singha All Star XI, and conceded in all 3 games so far, it happens in friendlies.
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Plus teh sides we are playing start their season earlier than ours don't they? So they will be ahead of us in terms of fitness.
True. But that doesnt really explain why West Ham beat Hamburg away last night while we couldn't beat three lower division German sides.
We played there at the start of our pre-season training and do we know the respective strengths of the teams they both put out?
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However much we dress up the pre-season games, the defence is still a concern: that's the key message from the games I've seen.
What spooks me is that there does not seem to be the same concern from PL; although of course it's impossible to know whether he's scouring the world for a new CB.
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However much we dress up the pre-season games, the defence is still a concern: that's the key message from the games I've seen.
What spooks me is that there does not seem to be the same concern from PL; although of course it's impossible to know whether he's scouring the world for a new CB.
He's already bought one?
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Having watched the second half last night I was not overly impressed with Clark, not for the first time.
However, I do feel he is our 4th choice CB now. Vlaar will partner Okore or Baker, I only see Clark playing if we have 2 CBs out injured.
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However much we dress up the pre-season games, the defence is still a concern: that's the key message from the games I've seen.
What spooks me is that there does not seem to be the same concern from PL; although of course it's impossible to know whether he's scouring the world for a new CB.
He's already bought one?
And given new contracts to 2 others.
I think we can safely say that Okore, Vlaar, Baker and Clark will be our CBs this season and we've just got to hope that their performances improve, and quickly!
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However much we dress up the pre-season games, the defence is still a concern: that's the key message from the games I've seen.
What spooks me is that there does not seem to be the same concern from PL; although of course it's impossible to know whether he's scouring the world for a new CB.
He's already bought one?
And given new contracts to 2 others.
I think we can safely say that Okore, Vlaar, Baker and Clark will be our CBs this season and we've just got to hope that their performances improve, and quickly!
I think its also worth mentioning that CBs are a partnership, and the right combination can really improve otherwise poor players.
Also, I have really high hopes for Okore, but he's going to be having to adjust to a much much tougher league, which could take some time. We shouldn't expect him to slot right into the team and magically fix all our defensive woes.
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However much we dress up the pre-season games, the defence is still a concern: that's the key message from the games I've seen.
What spooks me is that there does not seem to be the same concern from PL; although of course it's impossible to know whether he's scouring the world for a new CB.
He's already bought one?
And given new contracts to 2 others.
I think we can safely say that Okore, Vlaar, Baker and Clark will be our CBs this season and we've just got to hope that their performances improve, and quickly!
.. and that worries me.
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Most people seem to expect a right back to come in, it would be good if said player is equally adept at centre half too, a Micah Richards type player (but obviously not him) that would seem the most sensible approach to me, although God knows who there is in Europe that would fit this profile.
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Most people seem to expect a right back to come in, it would be good if said player is equally adept at centre half too, a Micah Richards type player (but obviously not him) that would seem the most sensible approach to me, although God knows who there is in Europe that would fit this profile.
An out and out right back would be good - Lowton can also play CB, and if things don't improve once the season is underway it's possible he could fill that role.
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Most people seem to expect a right back to come in, it would be good if said player is equally adept at centre half too, a Micah Richards type player (but obviously not him) that would seem the most sensible approach to me, although God knows who there is in Europe that would fit this profile.
An out and out right back would be good - Lowton can also play CB, and if things don't improve once the season is underway it's possible he could fill that role.
Whenever I've seen Lowton a centre half he doesn't look great, it's a bit like saying Cuellar can play right back, he can, but you wouldn't want to see him there.
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SSN are showing the goals today.
Well worth recording it and FFing through to see them.
The second one was as comedically calamitous as any goal we conceded last season.
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Most people seem to expect a right back to come in, it would be good if said player is equally adept at centre half too, a Micah Richards type player (but obviously not him) that would seem the most sensible approach to me, although God knows who there is in Europe that would fit this profile.
An out and out right back would be good - Lowton can also play CB, and if things don't improve once the season is underway it's possible he could fill that role.
Whenever I've seen Lowton a centre half he doesn't look great, it's a bit like saying Cuellar can play right back, he can, but you wouldn't want to see him there.
Agreed bob, but having watched the last two games Vlaar and Clark don't look great either! Baker was our best CB at Wycombe and Luton for winning the ball in the air. A sound defender alongside him - Okore? (Lowton if necessary) - might be a more effective pairing. Then in comes our full-back!
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What spooks me is that there does not seem to be the same concern from PL; although of course it's impossible to know whether he's scouring the world for a new CB.
Apologies for selecting what was probably a throw away comment Mister E, but this mentality that the solution to our problems is always to "buy" our way out of it needs to change. If Villa are to progress we need to (also) maximise other ways of improving the team. Primarily coaching.
With Okore, Clark and Baker they're all likely to get better as they gain more experience and strength. With patience they could become good enough. Thankfully Lambert appears to appreciate this fact (certainly compared to MON) however I think us fans need to sometimes recognise this.
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It's not just about buying players, it's about coaching the ones we currently have. That's my issue, it doesn't look like there is any coaching to address our issues at the moment.
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SSN are showing the goals today.
Well worth recording it and FFing through to see them.
The second one was as comedically calamitous as any goal we conceded last season.
Haven't seen the Luton goals, but the penalty concession at home v Southampton will take some beating for me.
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You could have two of the best defenders in the world and they could struggle to play together. Sometimes chemistry plays a part. Two players who can naturally read each others game. What we see with Vlaar in tandem with Clark is that there is no cohesion whatsoever. They're like two pandas being prodded into a pen to go and procreate but both would rather sit under a bamboo tree scratching their own bits.
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What spooks me is that there does not seem to be the same concern from PL; although of course it's impossible to know whether he's scouring the world for a new CB.
Apologies for selecting what was probably a throw away comment Mister E, but this mentality that the solution to our problems is always to "buy" our way out of it needs to change. If Villa are to progress we need to (also) maximise other ways of improving the team. Primarily coaching.
With Okore, Clark and Baker they're all likely to get better as they gain more experience and strength. With patience they could become good enough. Thankfully Lambert appears to appreciate this fact (certainly compared to MON) however I think us fans need to sometimes recognise this.
I've seen nothing from either Clark or Baker to suggest they'll ever become top class centre backs, and Vlaar has been a major disappointment ever since he signed. The 3 of them make ridiculous mistakes time and time again and their comedy defending put our PL status at risk last season and this pre season (so far) suggests they haven't really improved much if at all.
At least one more centreback signing is a must in my opinion.
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My guess is that Lambert may well be in need of a center half in January. If Vlaar, Clark and Baker continue to be a liability he may have to. I'm very hopeful about Okore but who knows how he'll settle.
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You could have two of the best defenders in the world and they could struggle to play together. Sometimes chemistry plays a part. Two players who can naturally read each others game. What we see with Vlaar in tandem with Clark is that there is no cohesion whatsoever. They're like two pandas being prodded into a pen to go and procreate but both would rather sit under a bamboo tree scratching their own bits.
Love the analogy tom!
I'm sure the pandas do a bit of grunting to let each other know how they feel. Vlaar and Clark talking to each other could work just as well! ;-)
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It's only a friendly, pride in the shirt sounds a bit extreme in that context.
The comedy defending, though, I've had enough of that already!
I would like to think that a "professional" would have enough pride and committment not to wish to lose to a non- league side or maybe I am overestimating what a guy on £20k per week should be doing to "earn" such a ridiculous sum.
Rather than spend any more on players I suggest Randy Lerner employs a defensive coach to improve this lot - it seems blatant that after 32 (?) games without a clean sheet Lambert and his team are not up to it.
2
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SSN are showing the goals today.
Well worth recording it and FFing through to see them.
The second one was as comedically calamitous as any goal we conceded last season.
I watched that at 6am this morning, it pissed me off probably more than it should have, it was appaulling
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What spooks me is that there does not seem to be the same concern from PL; although of course it's impossible to know whether he's scouring the world for a new CB.
Apologies for selecting what was probably a throw away comment Mister E, but this mentality that the solution to our problems is always to "buy" our way out of it needs to change. If Villa are to progress we need to (also) maximise other ways of improving the team. Primarily coaching.
With Okore, Clark and Baker they're all likely to get better as they gain more experience and strength. With patience they could become good enough. Thankfully Lambert appears to appreciate this fact (certainly compared to MON) however I think us fans need to sometimes recognise this.
Any player 14 + given the position of CH will have some attribute to suggest that he's capable of that position. All our existing CH's have certain attributes but not all the attributes for the position. With what I've see last season there's only Baker who attacks a ball in the air from set pieces. A strong CH has to make the box his responsibility, he has to know who is marking, where his keeper is, where his other defenders are around him. None of this needs coaching it's straight forward as it's what a CH does. Hopefully Okore has some of this box responsibility about him. If he hasn't we will struggle. Clark as I've said many a time isn't a CH. Vlaar, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt as he's only had a season and that was mucked about with injury. I think Baker can get better but is injury prone, too injury prone. We need another CH as I don't think Herd though better in the air than Clark and as good in the air as Vlaar isn't still a good enough stand in.
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My guess is that Lambert may well be in need of a center half in January. If Vlaar, Clark and Baker continue to be a liability he may have to. I'm very hopeful about Okore but who knows how he'll settle.
That'd be my strategy too. All our CBs have certain positive qualities but as yet we've not managed to find a pairing which works.
Clark, Baker and Okore should natuarlly improve with experience/age whereas you'd also hope Vlaar will improve as this will be in his second season in the Premier League/abroad, so all of them deserve the benefit of the doubt at least until christmas.
Sounds strange but they should be given the opportunity to fail, as at the moment it'd be hard to know with certainty which one is the weak link which would need to be sold.
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SSN are showing the goals today.
Well worth recording it and FFing through to see them.
The second one was as comedically calamitous as any goal we conceded last season.
The second goal was comical, I really don't want to see Vlaar and Clark as a combination this season at all. Baker has his faults but I feel the defence looks slightly more secure with him in there.
Posted this in the transfer thread but felt it should be in here aswell:
Yeah as I've said elsewhere Norwich didn't even have the best defensive record when they romped league one or were promoted from the championship, it's not a strength of Lambert's management it's fair to say.
That said would it really be much different to 07/08 (4-4 at Chelsea and 4-4 at Spurs amongst others or 08/09 (5-0 at Liverrool, 3-3 at home to Everton). Conceded plenty of goals that season (and that was with Laursen in there) but our very effective attack got us plenty of wins so I see the same happening here.
In the first half of last season we weren't actually that bad defensively, look at the run from October 20th to December 22nd:
1-0 Fulham
1-1 Norwich
0-1 Sunderland
2-3 Man. United
5-0 Man. City
0-0 Arsenal
1-0 Reading
1-1 QPR
0-0 Stoke
1-3 Liverpool
O.k we were playing some dross in that period but that's a 10 game sample of the season including a few games when we were playing the dreaded 5 at the back. Take away 30 minutes of brilliant individual Hernandez finishing and when we collapsed at City after that ridiculous penalty award and it shows you a spell when we actually weren't conceding a bucketload of goals, 12 goals conceded in 10 games.
Certainly Chelsea completely destroyed that and we've been conceding 2 goals a game on average since.
That said we'll be playing teams who have powderpuff attacks so we can outscore them. For example if the best Crystal Palace can do is resign Kevin Phillips and sign Carlton Cole then I'd be confident even we can keep a clean sheet against them.
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The irony about last season was probably our best defensive spell happened over a 6 (inc league cup) game unbeaten spell when we had Herd, Baker and Clark in a back three. They looked very solid in that period. Unfortunately it was followed up with our most horrific spell. Lol. In all honesty the presence of Vlaar probably wouldn't have helped during that horrific run either. He got injured in the Arsenal game, and it almost seemed like we'd suddenly turned a corner with 6 games unbeaten which culminated in a 4-1 win in the cup followed by a 3-1 against Liverpool, both away from home.
Then we had the rug pulled out from us.
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It's only a friendly, pride in the shirt sounds a bit extreme in that context.
The comedy defending, though, I've had enough of that already!
I would like to think that a "professional" would have enough pride and committment not to wish to lose to a non- league side or maybe I am overestimating what a guy on £20k per week should be doing to "earn" such a ridiculous sum.
Rather than spend any more on players I suggest Randy Lerner employs a defensive coach to improve this lot - it seems blatant that after 32 (?) games without a clean sheet Lambert and his team are not up to it.
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Ah Clive you're not going to suggest poaching Martinez are you ;)
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Vlaar is average.
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I think a big problem is we've been rubbish for years attacking the high ball (ever since Laursen retired really) and as such we're so easy to score against from set pieces.
I've no idea how many we conceded from corners, free kicks but in our nightmare run it seemed every goal was coming from that source.
And to show how rubbish we are at it, TSM who was supposed to be actually good at organising defences was equally as bad and we conceded 20 + goals in 11-12.
Most teams will only concede around 7- 8 goals from corners free kicks during a season so it isn't rocket science to see that if we could find a centre half who actually relishes defending corners then we'll ship less goals and get closer to the average of most other clubs and can start working on how to close down the space in open play.
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I don't think we'll buy another defender apart from possibly a back up right back.
I agree Clark must be fourth choice now.
I think Clark and perhaps vlaar have one more year to prove themselves. But a more ruthless manager might have decided to ship both.
It's the one position in the side where I wish he'd just buy a proven premier league player.
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I think a big problem is we've been rubbish for years attacking the high ball (ever since Laursen retired really) and as such we're so easy to score against from set pieces.
I've no idea how many we conceded from corners, free kicks but in our nightmare run it seemed every goal was coming from that source.
And to show how rubbish we are at it, TSM who was supposed to be actually good at organising defences was equally as bad and we conceded 20 + goals in 11-12.
Most teams will only concede around 7- 8 goals from corners free kicks during a season so it isn't rocket science to see that if we could find a centre half who actually relishes defending corners then we'll ship less goals and get closer to the average of most other clubs and can start working on how to close down the space in open play.
Statistically we weren't that bad at defending corners, the problem was the quantity we gave away. Hopefully a stonger midfield will mean we can retain possession better and play the game further up the pitch. As a result less corners and freekicks conceded...
Okore's pace might help here too as it means the defensive line can be higher.
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Doesn't have to be a proven premier league player, just somebody who fits in with the current MO and is a more savvy defender. Somebody like Dragovic for instance.
That said, if somebody like Escott was an option I'd be all for it. There must be money left for a couple of decent purchases. A number 10 and a centre half are still musts in my opinion. Especially the latter.
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I just don't see us going into the season with 5 centre halves, unless you include the likes of donacien. I hope the latter doesn't play too much purely because my iPhone can't seem to cope with his name!
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We are better defensively now than when we where playing three at the back, stop giving away silly free kicks around the eighteen yard area and cheap corners we should be ok.
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Well we were much better defensively for years under Gregory but we drew a shedload of games which stopped us getting any higher than 6th I think?
That's the crux of it isn't it, if we could defend properly then we'd be winning every week and challenging for the league. Easy peasey.
But would defending better as a unit mean Gabby and Weimann having to track back much more and so meaning Benteke is more isolated upfront and less chances?
Personally I prefer to see us scoring goals and we won enough games in the second half of the season to suggest that's the model worth preserving with as plenty of teams in the league won't have forward lines like we do.
I'd also hope that Luna is better defensively at LB than Bennett is and I'd be amazed if Okore isn't a better centre half than Ciaran Clark so that would mean 50% of our back 4 improving.
Its been mentioned before in this thread, but I think it bears repeating - conceding goals because, for instance, Gabby and Andi are up supporting Benteke, or conceding because Lowton is caught out from getting forward is ok - if we're going to be playing the attacking football most of us want to see, you'll just have to take that risk. The real problems come when you're also conceding from stupid errors and awful set piece defending, and I hope Lambert and co can sort it out or else our fantastic attack is going to be badly wasted.
EDIT oops, sorry I thought I was in the defending thread
You are now :) Anyways agreed, some of our defensive issues are due to our style of play. I accept those. Lambert is almost manic in his determination to attack and it is good football to watch.
What I do not accept is the poor set piece errors or poor cohesion at the back. We know that we will have players breaking forward, particularly the full backs, that is fine, good i fact, but other players must immediately see it and cover. that is where we break down a fair bit. Centrally I still do not know what the issue is, all defenders concede but occasionally we condede goals that look like sloppy positioning.
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Please could we all refrain from calling Mr Vlaar, "Concrete Ron", due to unforeseen circumstances and the fact our defense is lacklustre at best, he will now be known as "Pollyfilla Ron", not very strong but can fill gaps occasionally.
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Cueller>Vlaar. (Even given how horrific he was against us last season).
Alpay>Vlaar. (Ron wins on attitude to be fair).
Knight>Vlaar.
Collins-Vlaar. No score draw. Collins was good his first season, surprisingly so, but probably overperforming, whilst Vlaar has underperformed. But both on their day? It would be a close call.
There I said it. That's where I have Vlaar in the grand scheme of Villa center halfs of the last 10-15 years. A hell of a long way off guys like Martin and Olof. Not as terrible as some either, but in a sort of mediocre group, yet to achieve some stretches of consistency that even those above did at some point.
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I think Clark and perhaps vlaar have one more year to prove themselves. But a more ruthless manager might have decided to ship both.
My praise for Pubehead is as rare as us keeping a clean sheet but at least when he realised he'd bought rubbish, he had the common sense and balls (plus money) to replace them. I do wonder if Lambert is too stubborn to replace one of his purchases.
Can somebody confirm if Vlaar is a left or right sided central defender as I'm half sure he prefers the left but was pushed over to the right side to accommodate either Clark or Bennett due to Dunne's injury. Hopefully the right sided Jores can allow Marshmellow Ron to return to his favourite side. Even then I'm still not convinced he's good enough, he's too much of a passenger when what we need is a leader.
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Cueller>Vlaar. (Even given how horrific he was against us last season).
Alpay>Vlaar. (Ron wins on attitude to be fair).
Knight>Vlaar.
Collins-Vlaar. No score draw. Collins was good his first season, surprisingly so, but probably overperforming, whilst Vlaar has underperformed. But both on their day? It would be a close call.
There I said it. That's where I have Vlaar in the grand scheme of Villa center halfs of the last 10-15 years. A hell of a long way off guys like Martin and Olof. Not as terrible as some either, but in a sort of mediocre group, yet to achieve some stretches of consistency that even those above did at some point.
I would swap Vlaar for Collins no problem. Collins positioning was suspect but his dominance in the air was very good. Vlaar lacks both .....
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I think Clark and perhaps vlaar have one more year to prove themselves. But a more ruthless manager might have decided to ship both.
My praise for Pubehead is as rare as us keeping a clean sheet but at least when he realised he'd bought rubbish, he had the common sense and balls (plus money) to replace them. I do wonder if Lambert is too stubborn to replace one of his purchases.
Can somebody confirm if Vlaar is a left or right sided central defender as I'm half sure he prefers the left but was pushed over to the right side to accommodate either Clark or Bennett due to Dunne's injury. Hopefully the right sided Jores can allow Marshmellow Ron to return to his favourite side. Even then I'm still not convinced he's good enough, he's too much of a passenger when what we need is a leader.
Soccer Wiki sez Ron's preferred foot is the right one' Rudy.
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I think Clark and perhaps vlaar have one more year to prove themselves. But a more ruthless manager might have decided to ship both.
My praise for Pubehead is as rare as us keeping a clean sheet but at least when he realised he'd bought rubbish, he had the common sense and balls (plus money) to replace them. I do wonder if Lambert is too stubborn to replace one of his purchases.
Can somebody confirm if Vlaar is a left or right sided central defender as I'm half sure he prefers the left but was pushed over to the right side to accommodate either Clark or Bennett due to Dunne's injury. Hopefully the right sided Jores can allow Marshmellow Ron to return to his favourite side. Even then I'm still not convinced he's good enough, he's too much of a passenger when what we need is a leader.
Soccer Wiki sez Ron's preferred foot is the right one' Rudy.
We're buggered then. Hang on, that Soccer Wiki also says he has Aerial Ability. What am I to believe?
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Knight better really? You'll be rating Curtis Davies higher next....
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I think Clark and perhaps vlaar have one more year to prove themselves. But a more ruthless manager might have decided to ship both.
My praise for Pubehead is as rare as us keeping a clean sheet but at least when he realised he'd bought rubbish, he had the common sense and balls (plus money) to replace them. I do wonder if Lambert is too stubborn to replace one of his purchases.
Can somebody confirm if Vlaar is a left or right sided central defender as I'm half sure he prefers the left but was pushed over to the right side to accommodate either Clark or Bennett due to Dunne's injury. Hopefully the right sided Jores can allow Marshmellow Ron to return to his favourite side. Even then I'm still not convinced he's good enough, he's too much of a passenger when what we need is a leader.
Soccer Wiki sez Ron's preferred foot is the right one' Rudy.
We're buggered then. Hang on, that Soccer Wiki also says he has Aerial Ability. What am I to believe?
His window cleaning business !!! ???
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I think if we kept Collins and Dunne last season and there is no attitude/fitness problems we will do even better last season. But that would be interesting question to be answered.
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I think if we kept Collins and Dunne last season and there is no attitude/fitness problems we will do even better last season. But that would be interesting question to be answered.
Not so sure about that salsa, I think dunne has seen his best days, Collins may have been a better shout.
Maybe we should never have let Cahill go.
He would do a quality job for us
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Vlaar is obviously right footed. Whether he prefers the right or left side of the defence I'm less sure, but I wouldn't see it as an excuse
Looking at the Luton goal again I think it was Clark's fault, it should have been vlaar's ball. Though perhaps there was a communication failure
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There was an occasion last year where (I think) baker spooned one into his own net. Across came vlaar, literally picking Baker up off the floor and patted him on the back. The goal was a complete fuck up but vlaar's actions were immense.
I suspect that vlaar, whilst maybe not the footballer we'd hoped for, is a good guy to have around, someone who improves the players around him. Basically the sort of player Lanbert appears to like. And personally give me that anyday over the likes of Collins who might make marginally less mistakes but never seemed bothered about the club of the player's well being.
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That was Reading.
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Yeah Vlaar has some great leadership qualities. I also dont think its coincidence that we reduced our "oh my god my balls have gone up through my body to my mouth" defensive moments when he returned from injury.
Our defence certainly was not concrete with him in it, but it went from half open flappy curtains to venetian blinds.
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Would be nice to see Okore come into the side and get a few clean sheets, the team, fans need a morale booster.
I think everybody realises we can attack very well, and our counter attack is tremendous with strength and pace, probably the best in the prem.
Once the team realise we are hard to break down as well, I believe we could have an almighty season, but this defense has to act and act now.
At no cost does the opposition score....So that means Crewe 0... Starting tonight...UTV
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Knight better really? You'll be rating Curtis Davies higher next....
When he had Laursen by his side, yes. That said, Vlaar would look a lot better with Laursen by his side.
What we still need is that level of quality of defender who can come within sniffing distance of Olof and Martin. Dunney did in his first season. Vlaar is way off.
Zat Knight was good in the air too and actually despite being bought as a back up I thought he proved good value in the end. Some important goals, and some surprisingly dominent games. The odd howler I grant you, but less regularity than the Concrete gentleman.
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Not sure I agree with some of the criticism of Vlaar really. We looked much better at the back when he came back into the side after his injury, even though we were still gifting teams goals at times. He reminds a bit of Cuellar (he's much better on the ball than Carlos) in that he isn't really a dominant type of CB and would look better playing alongside that type of player.
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Vlaar massively helped the composure of our side on the whole at the end of last season. He makes errors, but his leadership is vital.
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I rate Vlaar more highly than Clark and Baker, although I would say Baker is not far behind Vlaar. I agree with the comparison to Cuellar, even Mellberg wasn't hugely dominant in the air and relied on his partner be it Knight or Laursen to deal with most of the high stuff. I think Vlaar and Okore could be very good and Baker alongside either ought to be ok as an alternative especially with an apparent upgrade on Bennett at left back and the form of Sylla, Westwood and Delph in front, plus Bacuna for further steel in front of the defence. A right back who can cover centre half to replace the rash Herd and I'd be happy enough with our squad's defensive options.
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Vlaar massively helped the composure of our side on the whole at the end of last season. He makes errors, but his leadership is vital.
I think that's fair.
Not sure that we need a "get it away!" Type headering beast back there either as there's probably only a handful of clubs which have a lump up front nowadays. As long as there is enough height throughout the side to deal with corners then vlaar/Clark should be big enough.
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Gents, anyone at the game last night let us know whether there were any improvements, or was it just a case of them not getting into he last third due to our attacking threat ;D
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Gents, anyone at the game last night let us know whether there were any improvements, or was it just a case of them not getting into he last third due to our attacking threat ;D
The latter. We largely kept the ball extremely well, especially first half. They barely got a sniff. On the positive side of things. Donacien looks a great prospect, so if any of are center backs aren't careful, he could be sniffing around for their place.
Bacuna covered right back well, so he'd be an option there if Lowton is out.
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Gents, anyone at the game last night let us know whether there were any improvements, or was it just a case of them not getting into he last third due to our attacking threat ;D
The latter. We largely kept the ball extremely well, especially first half. They barely got a sniff. On the positive side of things. Donacien looks a great prospect, so if any of are center backs aren't careful, he could be sniffing around for their place.
Bacuna covered right back well, so he'd be an option there if Lowton is out.
Agreed.
The Bacuna thing was a bit surprising. Took me ages to work out who it was and when I did, where he was playing. I assumed he'd gone off after 60 and we'd brought another promising youngster in! His goal was cracker!
Defended well generally although not that much threat from them.
Clark was a bit reckless twice in a matter of a few minutes - booked then ploughed through someone minutes later. Could have been sent off if not a friendly. Or if Phil F Dowd had been reffing!
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Gents, anyone at the game last night let us know whether there were any improvements, or was it just a case of them not getting into he last third due to our attacking threat ;D
The latter. We largely kept the ball extremely well, especially first half. They barely got a sniff. On the positive side of things. Donacien looks a great prospect, so if any of are center backs aren't careful, he could be sniffing around for their place.
Bacuna covered right back well, so he'd be an option there if Lowton is out.
So are you saying that if Okore steps straight up to the plate, Vlaar needs to keep an eye over his shoulder for donacien, or a possible pairing with Vlaar.....
This could be what our defense has been needing, wondering whether PL has this planed all along ?
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Knight better really? You'll be rating Curtis Davies higher next....
When he had Laursen by his side, yes. That said, Vlaar would look a lot better with Laursen by his side.
What we still need is that level of quality of defender who can come within sniffing distance of Olof and Martin. Dunney did in his first season. Vlaar is way off.
Zat Knight was good in the air too and actually despite being bought as a back up I thought he proved good value in the end. Some important goals, and some surprisingly dominent games. The odd howler I grant you, but less regularity than the Concrete gentleman.
Knight was very lucky firstly a club like us came in for him from annual relegation battles at Fulham and he had Laursen alongside him. No surprise in 08/09 when he was injured, the defence quickly collapsed.
Now back to his natural level at Bolton.
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Gents, anyone at the game last night let us know whether there were any improvements, or was it just a case of them not getting into he last third due to our attacking threat ;D
The latter. We largely kept the ball extremely well, especially first half. They barely got a sniff. On the positive side of things. Donacien looks a great prospect, so if any of are center backs aren't careful, he could be sniffing around for their place.
Bacuna covered right back well, so he'd be an option there if Lowton is out.
So are you saying that if Okore steps straight up to the plate, Vlaar needs to keep an eye over his shoulder for donacien, or a possible pairing with Vlaar.....
This could be what our defense has been needing, wondering whether PL has this planed all along ?
Still wouldn't be surprised to see PL revisit a formation including 3 CBs at some point this coming season. We struggled with it last season, but have to remember that Herd, Clark and Baker were the back three for most of that time. I've not seen Donacien play yet, but if he is as promising and as quick as some on here are saying, a back three of Okore, Vlaar, Donacien could be a possibility.
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Gents, anyone at the game last night let us know whether there were any improvements, or was it just a case of them not getting into he last third due to our attacking threat ;D
The latter. We largely kept the ball extremely well, especially first half. They barely got a sniff. On the positive side of things. Donacien looks a great prospect, so if any of are center backs aren't careful, he could be sniffing around for their place.
Bacuna covered right back well, so he'd be an option there if Lowton is out.
So are you saying that if Okore steps straight up to the plate, Vlaar needs to keep an eye over his shoulder for donacien, or a possible pairing with Vlaar.....
This could be what our defense has been needing, wondering whether PL has this planed all along ?
Still wouldn't be surprised to see PL revisit a formation including 3 CBs at some point this coming season. We struggled with it last season, but have to remember that Herd, Clark and Baker were the back three for most of that time. I've not seen Donacien play yet, but if he is as promising and as quick as some on here are saying, a back three of Okore, Vlaar, Donacien could be a possibility.
Donacien to me looks a great prospect. i feel he could be exactly what we need and fully expect lambert to have seen this potential in the recent games and use him throughout the season in various games. league cup and the odd prem games, within 2 years he could be ready for 30+ games.
strong, fast, composed and versatile what more could you ask for. But just for the record by no means the finished article and handle with care must be the approach we take with him,.
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If he's that good, wouldn't it be best that he's sent on a proper loan for a season?
He'll learn more doing that than in reserve football (development? U23? - whatever it's called)
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I watched a couple of reserve games on AVTV last season and Donacien stood out for me. A loan somewhere might be an idea though.
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I'm a bit concerned that he sees Clark starting with vlaar. My memory had been that baker had moved ahead of Clark. But in fact there were only a couple of games where Clark was fit and only on the bench.
I really want him to make it and I think he does have talent. But he needs to improve in a lot of areas and prefer baker in there.
I'm hoping Okore usurps all of our others but its a big ask to do so immediately
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I watched a couple of reserve games on AVTV last season and Donacien stood out for me. A loan somewhere might be an idea though.
We're quite poor at utilising the loan system aren't we.
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I watched a couple of reserve games on AVTV last season and Donacien stood out for me. A loan somewhere might be an idea though.
We're quite poor at utilising the loan system aren't we.
Yip. I read a long piece yesterday which looks at why we (the Premier League) are bad at bringing youth players through compared to Germany (and others). One of the key observations is that PL based players aged between 16 and 22 play a lot fewer competitive games. Numerous examples of young players getting snapped up by PL clubs and then not getting games where provided (Chelsea apparently paid Leeds £5m for two youngsters who are now playing lower and non league football) whereas players who come through at championship clubs end up becoming better players: Ince (left liverpool) and Westwood being two good examples.
So despite doing well at U16/18 levels PL clubs (and England) fall behind at the crucial point where they should be learning the most.
Villa are guilty of this too, although there has been a change of philosphy under Lambert. However we're still lacking in our use of he loan system. This will become more important as our squad becomes bigger as we cannot have too many young players not playing matches.
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I still think we will sign a CB in the next few weeks.
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I'm a bit concerned that he sees Clark starting with vlaar. My memory had been that baker had moved ahead of Clark. But in fact there were only a couple of games where Clark was fit and only on the bench.
I really want him to make it and I think he does have talent. But he needs to improve in a lot of areas and prefer baker in there.
I'm hoping Okore usurps all of our others but its a big ask to do so immediately
I think Vlaar and Clark was his preferred partnership last season, so I can see him having the mentality of keeping that and wanting the likes of Okore to play himself into the side. One thing about last season was there wasn't any pressure on the CBs for their places, which there will be next season, so hopefully that alone will see an improvement.
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I still think we will sign a CB in the next few weeks.
I really hope we do. PL must see we have problems still. And feel another option would help ......
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I thought he may bring in one extra body, but without the sale of Ireland, bent, given, just do not see this happening. :-X
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I think Vlaar and Clark was his preferred partnership last season, so I can see him having the mentality of keeping that and wanting the likes of Okore to play himself into the side. One thing about last season was there wasn't any pressure on the CBs for their places, which there will be next season, so hopefully that alone will see an improvement.
If that's the case, Okore will just have to turn up with both of his legs attached, because Clark is a woeful CB. I like the lad, I really do, but if he plays every game in the centre of our defence, we will ship a shedload again.
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For the first time in a long time, we actually have a decent sized squad (2 players for each position) and should actually be able to start loaning promising players out so that they get their first taste of competitive football. Cahill went out to Burnley, Baker went out to Millwall so we really need to be getting Donacien and others out to clubs that will play them regularly, probably at Championship clubs.
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It's been vlaar and Clark partnered together in the last three games. Now this might be because vlaar and baker had a fair few games together at the back end of last season and so don't need the practice. Or it might be because lambert still favours that pairing as his first choice - or is at least giving Clark ample opportunities to take his place alongside vlaar.
But I will be really disheartened if Clark is in the side at the emirates I have to say.
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It's been vlaar and Clark partnered together in the last three games. Now this might be because vlaar and baker had a fair few games together at the back end of last season and so don't need the practice. Or it might be because lambert still favours that pairing as his first choice - or is at least giving Clark ample opportunities to take his place alongside vlaar.
But I will be really disheartened if Clark is in the side at the emirates I have to say.
This. I just don't rate him.
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Unfortunately for Okore, his injury may have stopped him getting any chance to start at the emirates.
He would really have to make an appearance on Wednesday night if he was hoping to start.
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Unfortunately for Okore, his injury may have stopped him getting any chance to start at the emirates.
He would really have to make an appearance on Wednesday night if he was hoping to start.
I really hope he can make it. Our other CB's scare the crap out of me. maybe Okore will too but I havent seen him play a full game yet so I choose to believe he is a world beater :)
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Unfortunately for Okore, his injury may have stopped him getting any chance to start at the emirates.
He would really have to make an appearance on Wednesday night if he was hoping to start.
If he plays the full Malaga game he'll still have a shout at starting at Arsenal.
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And the run ends at
(http://home.earthlink.net/~ktd_33/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/33Graphic.jpg)
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Shut this thread. There is no problem.
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Unfortunately for Okore, his injury may have stopped him getting any chance to start at the emirates.
He would really have to make an appearance on Wednesday night if he was hoping to start.
If he plays the full Malaga game he'll still have a shout at starting at Arsenal.
Depends on whether he's been able to do any other cardio whilst injured (no idea what his injury is).
I suspect he'll be eased in over the first half of the season. We weren't that bad in the back third last year so no need to expose a new inexperienced signing, who lacks match practise.
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I dont think friendlies count, so we will be hearing the "no clean sheet since x" from commentators until we keep one in a competitive game.
Anyway good to see. Funny we keep a clean sheet the time Lambert decides he is too defensive minded with 4-3-3 and plays 4 up front.
I see him walking into the dressing room and telling Culverhouse "see I told you, we just needed more attackers" Culverhouse puts his head in his hands and sobs with Guzan :)
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I dont think friendlies count, so we will be hearing the "no clean sheet since x" from commentators until we keep one in a competitive game.
Anyway good to see. Funny we keep a clean sheet the time Lambert decides he is too defensive minded with 4-3-3 and plays 4 up front.
I see him walking into the dressing room and telling Culverhouse "see I told you, we just needed more attackers" Culverhouse puts his head in his hands and sobs with Guzan :)
we stick to what we are good at
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I hope the fans is asking Paul Lambert about defensive coaching tonight at the fan forum.
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Shut this thread. There is no problem.
Exactly, can people not see we've kept clean sheets against BOTH Walsall and Shamrock?
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Shut this thread. There is no problem.
Exactly, can people not see we've kept clean sheets against BOTH Walsall and Shamrock?
Still got my concerns, as a couple of injuries and we could be struggling at CB again. I still think we are missing a Colin Calderwood or Simon Grayson type (solid squad player who can come in and do a job over a couple of games) and would prefer to see someone like that in the squad ahead of Clark. I still think Clark would benefit from a loan spell in the Championship, but our lack of numbers mean that isn't really a possibility I guess.
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Clark won't go out on loan in the Championship now. He's got PL experience and is considered "experienced" and has proved it from time to time. Prone to blunders now and again that he needs to sort out.
TBH I think Vlaar, Baker & Okore will form the central defensive unit and we may see Clarky moving on next year.
He's a great footballer but perhaps not quite suited to the way they play things in the Prem. A bit too risky?
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Clark won't go out on loan in the Championship now. He's got PL experience and is considered "experienced" and has proved it from time to time. Prone to blunders now and again that he needs to sort out.
TBH I think Vlaar, Baker & Okore will form the central defensive unit and we may see Clarky moving on next year.
He's a great footballer but perhaps not quite suited to the way they play things in the Prem. A bit too risky?
I think it is still very questionable whether Clark (and Baker for that matter) is a Premiership quality defender at this point. He still struggles with the physical side of the game, something a spell in the Championship might help him with. Lambert seems to rate him though and it seems like he is very much in his squad plans for the season. I just hope we don't end up having to rely on him and Baker again too much this time round.
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Clark has calamity written all over him. Baker, although rash at the moment. hopefully will improve. (I hope Clark does too, just don't see it)
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Clark is two months younger than Bale. I know defenders probably mature at a slightly older age but I have run out of patience with him to be honest. I want him to do well but the fact is that when he is in the team I don't feel comfortable about his presence. He was better off in midfield I think but Baker is the better defensive prospect.
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Baker is a better defender than Clark. But is injury prone and I am still hoping PL will invest in a CB who is dominant in the aerial battles as Vlaar is suspect and unpredictable. Would also like a proper DM to protect the defence. Okore has the pace we have lacked and will be a big improvement ......
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I hope when the season actually starts, fans will be supportive of Clark and not get on his back from the first minute, waiting for a mistake. The lad is still learning and as a centre half it will take time, it's not like Bale or any other attacking player, if that were the case we could all have a go at Weimann for the sitters he misses.
The same goes for Joe Bennett and Marc Albrighton. In Bennett's case he showed signs of improving towards the end of last season. Albrighton we already know he can produce but injury hasn't helped him. Confidence is key to these young lads, as it is with the rest of our squad, so I'd hope we support the lads and save our moans for the tossers that don't put the effort in.
It's going to be a long season and we need all the squad to be ready to step up when called upon, both physically and mentally.
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Bennett improved a lot last year, and I think he'll come good.
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Baker is a better defender than Clark. But is injury prone and I am still hoping PL will invest in a CB who is dominant in the aerial battles as Vlaar is suspect and unpredictable. Would also like a proper DM to protect the defence. Okore has the pace we have lacked and will be a big improvement ......
Baker seemed to be taking the "attack the ball in the air" position with Vlaar sweeping up on a few occasions in pre season. Maybe this is what they have worked out, if so I think it suits Baker as he likes to get stuck in as opposed to standing off.
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Bale was also moved from defence as the position(s) demand greater tactical know how than (even) he could muster. We all know how it turned out but at the time I'm pretty sure harry thought of it as a temporary switch.
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Baker is a better defender than Clark. But is injury prone and I am still hoping PL will invest in a CB who is dominant in the aerial battles as Vlaar is suspect and unpredictable. Would also like a proper DM to protect the defence. Okore has the pace we have lacked and will be a big improvement ......
Baker seemed to be taking the "attack the ball in the air" position with Vlaar sweeping up on a few occasions in pre season. Maybe this is what they have worked out, if so I think it suits Baker as he likes to get stuck in as opposed to standing off.
If Baker is going to be the aerial power then surely Okore will be the one to sweep up. Okore`s distribution is very good plus he has serious pace ??
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You maybe right. Personally do not think Vlaar is particularly good in the air, don't know about Okore yet.
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We fielded what might be our first choice back 5 on saturday. I know we left them exposed with our midfield, but even so I wasn't left feeling reassured.
I thought vlaar was ropey in the first half before getting better. Both full backs were too easy to beat one on one. And the diagonal run from our left to right, with a ball over the top, got us into trouble several times in the second half.
It's just not organised enough and unless it improves its very hard to see us getting near the top half I think.
Very happy with the rest of the side, so it'd be a real shame if this continues to be our Achilles heel.
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Vlaar is our biggest issue. He's supposed to be the main man, the experienced lynch pin, the skipper, the big daddy...but he's bobbins. I think he may score a few impressive goals to mask some of his defensive inadequacies, but he's just not good enough. Not very quick, not very good in the air and positionally suspect.
I actually think the fact Clark and Baker haven't had a sort of Laursen figure has hindered them. Particularly in Clark's case, he needed a leader and an organiser next to him to keep him in tow. Curtis Davies looked twice the player with Laursen as he did without. When Mart had his final injury, Davies was never the same and of course he dropped a league then after, before now coming back. Clarks got too many concentration issues and positional problems. He needs to improve his physical stature, but that can be rectified. The more mental aspects of being a top defender can be greatly helped by spending 30 games alongside someone who knows what they're doing.
This is why, for me, Vlaar has been the one real clanger thus far in Lambert's signings. He was always meant to be the main man in he middle. Dunney was largely irrelivant and never in PL's long term plans realistically (not least because he's clearly a busted flush). Blamanche Ron has to drastically improve. Not just his own game, but the way in which he keeps the younger lads in line. My worry at the minute is that he's focused on what he's doing, but he's still making errors left, right and center. Again though, the biggest issue is that he's poor aerially.
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Vlaar is our biggest issue. He's supposed to be the main man, the experienced lynch pin, the skipper, the big daddy...but he's bobbins. I think he may score a few impressive goals to mask some of his defensive inadequacies, but he's just not good enough. Not very quick, not very good in the air and positionally suspect.
I actually think the fact Clark and Baker haven't had a sort of Laursen figure has hindered them. Particularly in Clark's case, he needed a leader and an organiser next to him to keep him in tow. Curtis Davies looked twice the player with Laursen as he did without. When Mart had his final injury, Davies was never the same and of course he dropped a league then after, before now coming back. Clarks got too many concentration issues and positional problems. He needs to improve his physical stature, but that can be rectified. The more mental aspects of being a top defender can be greatly helped by spending 30 games alongside someone who knows what they're doing.
This is why, for me, Vlaar has been the one real clanger thus far in Lambert's signings. He was always meant to be the main man in he middle. Dunney was largely irrelivant and never in PL's long term plans realistically (not least because he's clearly a busted flush). Blamanche Ron has to drastically improve. Not just his own game, but the way in which he keeps the younger lads in line. My worry at the minute is that he's focused on what he's doing, but he's still making errors left, right and center. Again though, the biggest issue is that he's poor aerially.
Think that is a little harsh on Vlaar, but I do share some of your concerns about him. He didn't look too comfortable at left sided CB yesterday and players got in between him and Luna on a number of occasions, including the time when I thought he actually fouled their forward inside the box just as he was about to shoot. Okore looked solid, but again doesn't look too great in the air.
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For me I'd like to see Baker alongside Okore. Give them a run of games and see how it works out. It's the best balance of pace, power and aerial ability as a pairing. Oh and a righty and a lefty.
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He is poor aerially though.
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Baker? Vlaar isn't great in the air but Baker is pretty good.
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Baker? Vlaar isn't great in the air but Baker is pretty good.
Bakers physically strong in the air. He could be big success this season. Ron Vlaar doesnt excel at any aspect of his defensive game.
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I like Baker a lot but he does have a habit of picking up niggly injuries. I don't think Vlaar is as bad as some people make out but that said, i'd be a bit happier if Lambert brought in another centre half before the window closes because i'm not convinced about Clark as back up. Personally i'd have given him a few games in midfield this pre-season because I think that's where we'd see the best of him.
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I look at Vlaar, Okore, Clark and Baker and don't really think any of them are bad players, but then none are outstanding players either (with the noted proviso that we haven't really seen enough of Okore yet). There is probably a decent partnership within them, so it's up to Lambert to find it.
Like I said before, they don't have to be exceptional, just stop gifting sides soft goals.
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Of course it argued that it doesn't matter what players comprise the backline, Villa will always have a leaky defense while Lambert is in charge because that is an inherent weakness in his managerial style.
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I watched the game online on Saturday, and must say I thought defensively, second half, we were shocking.
There was very little composure or calmness, especially in the middle of the back 4. Everything that we have deal with has an air of desperation or panic about it.
And, it seems that both full full backs were drifting inside a bit too much.
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The absence of replays on AVTV made it hard for me to tell what was going wrong with the defence, but something clearly was. Vlaar got himself into a right mess twice in the first half and put in a poor challenge for their first.
But while he got better in the second I thought our shape was really bad in the second half and they got in behind us easily without too much trouble
It may be that having two new players in there is a bit too much. So might it be Okore or Luna but not both to begin with? I like the look of Luna as a footballer, but think that I might play baker at lb and Okore alongside vlaar in the first couple of games.
Don't want to sound pessimistic but there's a chance we could really get turned over in one of our first three games, even if we play well going forwards.
It still looks to be the worst villa defence I've seen
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I agree Matt. I really like Guzan, but he still worries me a lot. Remember how close we came to throwing away the lead at Norwich in the last minute because he came for a long-ball that he got nowhere near? Similarly, I think Lowton is one of the best footballer's in our side. However, the one area he probably needs to work on most is defending! Both our LBs look to be decent going forward, but suspect defensively. In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Clark or Baker playing at left-back in a fair few games next season.
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He worries you a lot because he came for 1 ball and missed it?
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He worries you a lot because he came for 1 ball and missed it?
No, he worries me in general. I don't think I've ever seen him confidently control his box when we've been defending a set-piece.
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I think Guzan controls his penalty area better than any other keeper in the league. His catching is sensational.
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He worries you a lot because he came for 1 ball and missed it?
No, he worries me in general. I don't think I've ever seen him confidently control his box when we've been defending a set-piece.
I think he does, more than most keepers. Despite how many we conceded last year, especially from set pieces, i'm struggling to think of many where you could lay the blame with him.
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He won our Player of the Season so he wasn't that bad.
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Maybe I'm being unfair on him, and my view is distorted by the defence playing in front of him.
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He won our Player of the Season so he wasn't that bad.
http://i4.birminghammail.co.uk/incoming/article175761.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/stephen-ireland-861001261-175761.jpg
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He won our Player of the Season so he wasn't that bad.
http://i4.birminghammail.co.uk/incoming/article175761.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/stephen-ireland-861001261-175761.jpg
The difference is the quality of competition. Chris Herd would have been my choice that season. Followed by Robbie Keane who only played a few games. Which sums up how poor the choice was.
Last season Guzan had to beat Benteke to win it. There were probably 5 or 6 players more worthy based on their performance over a season last year than Ireland when he won it.
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He won our Player of the Season so he wasn't that bad.
http://i4.birminghammail.co.uk/incoming/article175761.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/stephen-ireland-861001261-175761.jpg
There wasn't exactly much choice that year.
Guzan was excellent last season, along with Benteke, he played a massive part in us not going down.
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He worries you a lot because he came for 1 ball and missed it?
No, he worries me in general. I don't think I've ever seen him confidently control his box when we've been defending a set-piece.
For me, the issue about set piece defending is about how well the keeper is communicating what he thinks he needs, and how well the key defenders (CB) then execute that.
Last season we saw too many occasions where it appeared the CBs was not carrying out the tasks expected of them - or, Guzan wasn't getting his communicating right. It wasn't helped in the first half of the season by injuries and tactical switches by PL.
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Around the time he signed his new contract there were stats posted in here where I'm sure it said he'd claimed more crosses than any other keeper.
I agree on the communication thing though. I once played in a side where the keeper was in his forties and he used to shout and organise the whole team. It made such a difference. Impossible to say whether guzan has stopped doing that but you do seem to hear his booming voice less often.
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If we had Martin Laursen and Paul McGrath in out central defenders today (both are 28 years old) and would you think they will go great job in our team. I think yes and McGrath is excellent at reading and timing and Laursen is so brave and willing to commit himself and not too reckless.
Baker need to look at Laursen game and learn from him and Clark to follow McGrath (or Southgate).
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If we had Martin Laursen and Paul McGrath in out central defenders today (both are 28 years old) and would you think they will go great job in our team. I think yes and McGrath is excellent at reading and timing and Laursen is so brave and willing to commit himself and not too reckless.
Baker need to look at Laursen game and learn from him and Clark to follow McGrath (or Southgate).
Eh!
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(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/manuel-que_zpsaa97fb7e.jpg)
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Say again?
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A 28 year old Laursen & McGrath would be the best partnership in football. Baker and Clark would indeed learn from them both.
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Baker? Vlaar isn't great in the air but Baker is pretty good.
Bakers physically strong in the air. He could be big success this season. Ron Vlaar doesnt excel at any aspect of his defensive game.
Is Vlaar club captain ?
If so, that could be a problem as he isn't a nailed on starter.
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Can't see PL NOT starting with Vlaar, but I think Okore and Baker will emerge as our best partnership as the season progresses. A bit more nous and experience for Baker and more game time for Okore will hopefully see them develop into a really strong pairing.
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Can't see PL NOT starting with Vlaar, but I think Okore and Baker will emerge as our best partnership as the season progresses. A bit more nous and experience for Baker and more game time for Okore will hopefully see them develop into a really strong pairing.
I think our long term pairing may well turn out to be Okore and Donacien.
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Can't see PL NOT starting with Vlaar, but I think Okore and Baker will emerge as our best partnership as the season progresses. A bit more nous and experience for Baker and more game time for Okore will hopefully see them develop into a really strong pairing.
I think our long term pairing may well turn out to be Okore and Donacien.
Was very impressed with Donacien pre-season. He was the only decent thing to come out of the Luton game - and even then he was playing out of position at full-back. Very quick and athletic with a calm head on his shoulders. They could be a great combination - robust defenders, quick and good on the ball too.
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Wouldn't be surprised if Vlaar is used as the experienced pro this season, essentially a vehicle to allow Okore, Clark and Baker to get experience and then he will be sold back to Holland next season.
Really think Donacien should be sent off on loan this season. He's very unlikely to play so a season loan would do wonders for his progression compared to U21 football.
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Guzan is the least of our worries, he'd barely concede a goal playing behind the 09/10 or even just with Laursen in there.
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I get the feeling we may concede fewer simply because of the fact the midfield holds up better and so we will hold onto those one-goal advantages.
May even mean I can retire my "two goals for the draw" mantra?
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Agreed WW. As Clough said, if you have the ball in their half, they can't score.
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Really think Donacien should be sent off on loan this season. He's very unlikely to play so a season loan would do wonders for his progression compared to U21 football.
When I said long term I meant beyond this season, so fully agree a loan for to the Championship would be great for him.
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I'd send him on loan until Jan, with a recall option as well.
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Baker? Vlaar isn't great in the air but Baker is pretty good.
No, Vlaar. I was replying to the post about him when someone posted about Baker straight after.
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I appreciate everyone has their opinion on who is good enough and who isn't but I think we may be missing a trick by talking about centre half personnel here.
The team attacks and the team defends - and I think it is Villa's set up under Lambert that puts such pressure on the centre half pairing - whoever it may be. Last seasons high paced counter attacking lead to suicidal over commitment by some of our young players. That over commitment was compounded by trying to be overly elaborate in defence. A simple clearance seemed too much to ask early on. But they got better - and stronger - even if the tendency to over load on attack remained.
I have been digging around - but I have yet to find evidence that Lambert is a sound coach defensively - all his teams seem be involved in high scoring shot fests - with scoring goals very much the focus of coaching and player acquisition.
It's clear that the new personnel and the experience of last season stands us in good stead. Okore looks like the perfect Lambert defender. Fast, skilful, and aggressive. Qualities that are perfect for a team that will attack and attack by pushing its full backs forward and so may leave itself open on the counter.
I don't doubt Vlaar's integrity or his talent - I am just not convinced he is the top class defender that Villa's current style needs.
This could turn out to be the longest running thread in the history of H&V but one thing is for sure - it won't be boring.
UTV
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There's definitely a concern about whether the side is well drilled enough defensively.
But we should take into account that lambert sides have tended to over achieve given the experience of the players in thesquad. So that would tend to mean either being very tough to beat or scoring a bucket load of goals, but hard to do both.
Having said all of that, we still look shockingly bad at the back at times and its hard to think we're not going to get at least a couple of absolute shoeings again this season.
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Lambert obviously has faith in the 4 centre backs at the club so we should all forget about an older experienced defender coming in, I am hoping that younger players like Clark and Baker will be stronger following last season's battle to survive and that Vlaar will improve in his second season and be more of a leader on the pitch, as for Okore we will just have to wait and find out, pretty sure we will concede a few less but that area of the team is still by far the weakest
UP THE VILLA
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A new center back won't be on the cards until january at least, and that's only if we've been complete and utter bobbins at the back, and we're in the bottom 6 again.
Of course if we concede 15 goals in our first 3 games, Lambo may have to have another look at the situation.
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I don't know if its already been mentioned, but Michael Mancienne has been released by Hamburg. He looked out of his depth in the premiership but he now has a couple of seasons experience in the Bundesliga I think he would be a decent addition to our defence.
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Really think Donacien should be sent off on loan this season. He's very unlikely to play so a season loan would do wonders for his progression compared to U21 football.
When I said long term I meant beyond this season, so fully agree a loan for to the Championship would be great for him.
I think he'll keep Donacien in the squad - he may well prvoe important as cover on the right side of defence (either CB or RB). Whether this is good for the player's development long-term, I'm not sure, but the kid will also get good experience in the U21's next season too.
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Really think Donacien should be sent off on loan this season. He's very unlikely to play so a season loan would do wonders for his progression compared to U21 football.
When I said long term I meant beyond this season, so fully agree a loan for to the Championship would be great for him.
I think he'll keep Donacien in the squad - he may well prvoe important as cover on the right side of defence (either CB or RB). Whether this is good for the player's development long-term, I'm not sure, but the kid will also get good experience in the U21's next season too.
I think Donacien should be given a chance now Okore is out for season.
Cannot be any worse than watching any of the 3 stooges.....
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The midfield in front of our Defence hasn't helped this season.
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I think on the whole our centerbacks have been okay. Vlaar has improved. He's still got his problems granted, and whether he's good enough to be main man in the long run, I'm still not sure, but he's been fairly consistent. Clarky has done well too. Generally, aside from sloppy early goals blighting us, our central two are generally solid. The major issue is our fullbacks leaving acres of space, or getting isolated because there's no support from midfield. I don't ever remember seeing us really doubling up and decent wide players in this system, or in all honesty any other system Lambert plays. Our fb's need a lot more help though, because defensively they're not brilliant. And if they get pushed back and occupied defensively, it nullifies their attacking abilities which then takes away almost all our attacking width. Luna and Lowton barely got forward last saturday. Luna in particular had an awful time of it against Ben Arfa.
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Horrible to lose Okore for the season. When he got injured on Saturday I just assumed he'd pulled a muscle as he limped off and so he would be back in a few weeks.
That's just bad luck, most prem teams would struggle if one of their first choice defenders was out for 9 months.
We will need to get someone in, I don't trust Baker at all to stay fit even to next week if he plays at Norwich and Ron will probably get a knock or two so we'll be back to Clark again.
Even if it's just a loan in January, that Ba bloke we keep on getting linked to?
Short term we'll probably see more of Donancien in the squad, he played well in pre season.
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I wonder how much of our defensive frailties can be put down to a complete lack of support and protection from the midfield.
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Saturday was the first time we've looked poor in defence this season.
Liverpool after they scored against us created hardly anything, same with Chelsea at Stamford Bridge. At Arsenal we gave away a poor goal but actually defended well for the rest of the match.
As I keep on saying look at Norwich even when they were rising through the divisions, their season in the prem. We won the games we needed to in the second half of the season and didn't keep a clean sheet, it's not the Lambert way to build from the back.
I'd much rather our chronic lack of midfield creativity was sorted first personally.
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Was John Gregory a defensive coach under Little? I'm sure he wouldn't mind a few part time hours a week.
I seem to remember the defence being pretty tight. Then after he left we started leaking goals again before him coming back as Manager to sort them out once more. Well that's how I remember it anyway.
Could hardly imagine Lambert wanting a former manager working under him though and it also probably needs a bit more than part time hours to sort the current lot out.
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I wonder how much of our defensive frailties can be put down to a complete lack of support and protection from the midfield.
It has a massive impact. For instance on Saturday as poor as Lowton and Luna were, they needed a lot more help from Gabby and Andi. That was one of the major impacts Sylla had last year, he helped shield the defence as well as up our tempo and drive.
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I wonder how much of our defensive frailties can be put down to a complete lack of support and protection from the midfield.
It has a massive impact. For instance on Saturday as poor as Lowton and Luna were, they needed a lot more help from Gabby and Andi. That was one of the major impacts Sylla had last year, he helped shield the defence as well as up our tempo and drive.
I constantly bang the drum about this. You need somebody big and physical in your midfield to screen the back four. Sylla is the man to do this.
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I wonder how much of our defensive frailties can be put down to a complete lack of support and protection from the midfield.
It has a massive impact. For instance on Saturday as poor as Lowton and Luna were, they needed a lot more help from Gabby and Andi. That was one of the major impacts Sylla had last year, he helped shield the defence as well as up our tempo and drive.
I constantly bang the drum about this. You need somebody big and physical in your midfield to screen the back four. Sylla is the man to do this.
That helps, although if they're a positional lunatic it doesn't matter how big they are, they're going to get nothing done. Physical certainly, willing to do the unpleasant work, but positioning and not being a fairy are more important than being massive. Think about Makelele, or Petrov: not exactly beasts but they could hold their own, and their tactical awareness was terrific.
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Sylla was a real help generally but particularly in terms of covering the full backs. The wingers just don't on any kind of consistent basis
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Don't know why everyone banging on about sylla helping our defence out how many clean sheets did we have when he played last season.. Big fat zero plus he was probably the most attacking of the 3 when I saw him play
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Don't know why everyone banging on about sylla helping our defence out how many clean sheets did we have when he played last season.. Big fat zero plus he was probably the most attacking of the 3 when I saw him play
We didn't keep cleansheets but we became a lot more solid as a team.
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Absolutely. Anyone denying the defence got better didn't watch the games. We went from catastrophic to just pretty bad / 5 mistakes to one or two. Sylla's energy clearly had a big part to play in that
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Was John Gregory a defensive coach under Little? I'm sure he wouldn't mind a few part time hours a week.
I seem to remember the defence being pretty tight. Then after he left we started leaking goals again before him coming back as Manager to sort them out once more. Well that's how I remember it anyway.
Could hardly imagine Lambert wanting a former manager working under him though and it also probably needs a bit more than part time hours to sort the current lot out.
Not entirely sure to be honest. I do think JG benefited from having an excellent selection of center backs.
Currently you'd have to say our best CH is out injured and the other 3 are very questionnable.
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And JG's teams used to set up with five defenders and two defensive midfielders a lot of the time
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Absolutely. Anyone denying the defence got better didn't watch the games. We went from catastrophic to just pretty bad / 5 mistakes to one or two. Sylla's energy clearly had a big part to play in that
Absolutely, the clean sheets thing is a bit of a red herring too. Few clubs keep them regularly these days. The way the laws are interperated makes it much more difficult for defenders to the point where almost every tackle risks a yellow card if slightly mistimed. There's no doubting we had problems but similarly there is no doubt that we improved in the second part of the season.
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I wouldn't say the clean sheets thing is quite a red herring. It means you can never win by scoring one goal. That's a bit of a bummer!
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I wouldn't say the clean sheets thing is quite a red herring. It means you can never win by scoring one goal. That's a bit of a bummer!
Precisely. It means we have to score a minimum of 2 goals to win a game. Something we've done just once so far this season. Why people try to play the clean sheets argument down is anyone's guess.
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I wouldn't say the clean sheets thing is quite a red herring. It means you can never win by scoring one goal. That's a bit of a bummer!
Precisely. It means we have to score a minimum of 2 goals to win a game. Something we've done just once so far this season. Why people try to play the clean sheets argument down is anyone's guess.
It isn't 'playing it down' it's being factual. Last season only two sides, Man City (34) and Arsenal (37), averaged less than one goal conceded per game.
Nobody would argue that we didn't have huge problems to start with but similarly, if you stick to the facts, we improved after Christmas when it contributed to our better results.
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I wouldn't say the clean sheets thing is quite a red herring. It means you can never win by scoring one goal. That's a bit of a bummer!
Precisely. It means we have to score a minimum of 2 goals to win a game. Something we've done just once so far this season. Why people try to play the clean sheets argument down is anyone's guess.
It isn't 'playing it down' it's being factual. Last season only two sides, Man City (34) and Arsenal (37), averaged less than one goal conceded per game.
Nobody would argue that we didn't have huge problems to start with but similarly, if you stick to the facts, we improved after Christmas when it contributed to our better results.
But to Villa it's immensely important because we have to score more than 1 goal to win a game. Imagine how much we'd improve as a team if Lambert could only muster a decent defence.
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I don't see what on earth those arsenal and city stats prove? We're not aiming for an average of less than a goal a game conceded. Just not to concede in every game (which we've now managed)
If you were to go a whole season never being able to win a game with one goal, I doubt very much you could get anywhere near top half.
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After Ron went off and Lowton came on I thought we regressed back to bad old days of 12 months ago. Both Rodriguez and Osvaldo were allowed to pick easy headers.
Any idea how many games Ron will miss?
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After Ron went off and Lowton came on I thought we regressed back to bad old days of 12 months ago. Both Rodriguez and Osvaldo were allowed to pick easy headers.
Any idea how many games Ron will miss?
Got to admit I thought both the goals were really poor headers to concede if you are a centre back. The Clark/ Baker pairing is nowhere near good enough and could de rail what has been a really solid foundation to a season.
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Well hopefully Ron's back at the weekend, we've been shit at the back for ages now. Ron and Clark have been excellent lately. Mind you what threat will Fulham pose? Bent can't play and Berbatov can't be arsed I hope.
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it will be just our luck that the two central defenders none of us wanted injured at the start of the season are the two that are injured.
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Let's put it in perspective, this is effectively out 3rd and 4th choice centre backs. Most teams would struggle with that situation.
I'm not even sure I know who Arsenal's 4th choice CB is, and they're top of the league.
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I wouldn't say the clean sheets thing is quite a red herring. It means you can never win by scoring one goal. That's a bit of a bummer!
Precisely. It means we have to score a minimum of 2 goals to win a game. Something we've done just once so far this season. Why people try to play the clean sheets argument down is anyone's guess.
It isn't 'playing it down' it's being factual. Last season only two sides, Man City (34) and Arsenal (37), averaged less than one goal conceded per game.
Nobody would argue that we didn't have huge problems to start with but similarly, if you stick to the facts, we improved after Christmas when it contributed to our better results.
Sorry but the argument doesn't make sense. I don't mind if we AVERAGE conceding a goal a game so much. But if you concede at least one in EVERY game then you're going to struggle to win.
We'd have lost v Sunderland west ham and hull, drawn v Norwich, if we couldn't keep a clean sheet. That's 5 fewer points and close to the relegation zone
It's pretty simple really
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Sorry but the argument doesn't make sense. I don't mind if we AVERAGE conceding a goal a game so much. But if you concede at least one in EVERY game then you're going to struggle to win.
We'd have lost v Sunderland west ham and hull, drawn v Norwich, if we couldn't keep a clean sheet. That's 5 fewer points and close to the relegation zone
It's pretty simple really
Are you trying to tell us that if we let in more goals we'd get less points?
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Yep, seems like it!
I just can't see how anyone can argue that keeping clean sheets doesn't make a massive difference to your ability to win games.
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Clear that Ron is the glue....we conceded 2 today and let's be honest it could've been a lot more against a team that have lost 6 on the bounce and struggle to score more than 1 goal a game, not good enough.
What would people do v United?
Lowton has to be back in for me, put him RB and have Bacuna ahead of him. Prey Ron is fit and Luna aswell, if not I'd be tempted to throw Bennett in if he can have a week's training without cutting his knee, we need some natural balance there.
Despite them being in their worst form for a decade, it's deluded to think anything resembling the shambles we put out today at the back will keep Rooney and RVP goalless for 98 minutes.
We also need our strikers to actually turn up big time next weekend.
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I will always see Herd as more of a defensive midfielder/right back than central defender.
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I will always see Herd as more of a defensive midfielder/right back than central defender.
I thought herd gave it a good go today - we were all over the place at times and the full backs failed to stop far too many crosses coming in - in truth we were lucky to lose only 2-0 .
Vlaar and okore are both decent on my view but we may need a loan as cover until okore is back - Clark had improved a lot this season and baker is still a worry although he does try his best .
Lowton needs to be brought in at right back .
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I think the most noticeable thing on sunday was that we effectively only played on one side of the pitch. Whilst Baker would hug the touchline from a positional sense the players clearly did not trust him to take on their full back (not his fault, he's clearly a CB) so we ended aimlessly trying to switch the play.
Having Bennet or Luna back is vital as the team look so disjointed with sunday's jumble sale of a defence.
I'd also bring Lowton back. Bacuna received some (justified) bollockings from Clark on Sunday so the lad may need to be taken out of the spotlight before his confidence is ruined.
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Bacuna is not a full back, Lowton should play there with Bacuna in front of him!
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He's not a CB but I thought Chris Herd did pretty well yesterday.
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He's not a CB but I thought Chris Herd did pretty well yesterday.
I've got a lot of time for Herd. You can guarantee he will give everything for the team and that aussie mongrel spirit is always an asset.
One of those players that, if sold, could really improve. Unfortunately for him he's never had a run in the side (in the same position) except when we're desperate with injuries so it's hard to assess how good/bad he actually is.
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I felt both Herd and Clark were good yesterday ..let down by poor positioning by both FB's and a midfield who once again where unable to control the game
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He's not a CB but I thought Chris Herd did pretty well yesterday.
It's funny how we see different things from the same game because I thought he was awful. He did his best considering it was his first game for a while but he should never had been played there. Fulham caught us out through the middle a lot during that first half because him and Clark were so far apart at times. You can get away with playing the odd person out of position but not three like he did yesterday.
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I found it stunning that, given the injury problems we have at the back, Lambert still opted for a back four that had three players out of position. At the very least, we should/could have ensured we had a right-back and two central defenders in their natural roles, leaving just LB to fill.
I too thought Herd was poor. Seemed caught out of position too often, especially in the first half. He can head a ball and likes a tackle (though is often on the reckless side) but he looks very much to me like a midfielder player filling in at the back - still.
I'd rather we gave Donacien a chance. At least he's a specialist defender, used to playing in that position every week.
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I found it stunning that, given the injury problems we have at the back, Lambert still opted for a back four that had three players out of position. At the very least, we should/could have ensured we had a right-back and two central defenders in their natural roles, leaving just LB to fill.
Could'nt agree more, it was unnecessary.
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I felt both Herd and Clark were good yesterday ..let down by poor positioning by both FB's and a midfield who once again where unable to control the game
This is how I saw it
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Especially Clark. Whenever I see the Vlaarless backline described as 'inexperienced' or 'youthful' I think - what about Clark? He's got a lot of experience now and it's been to show.
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Who's been playing LB for the reserves/U21s of late?
This LB situation is daft, when you think about it. Both first teamers out, Enda Stevens loaned out, let Derrick Williams go in the summer.
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I thought Herdy did well. Best of a bad bunch at the back. I'd like him in midfield to be honest, as an anchorman. He'd at least have an impact on the game over 90 minutes and not go missing like Westwood and KEA. And though Herd isn't the best passer, as our players can't play simple 5 yard passes anyway, he wouldn't look out of place.
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Who's been playing LB for the reserves/U21s of late?
This LB situation is daft, when you think about it. Both first teamers out, Enda Stevens loaned out, let Derrick Williams go in the summer.
And to be fair, I'm not sure any of them are good enough.
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I thought Herdy did well. Best of a bad bunch at the back. I'd like him in midfield to be honest, as an anchorman. He'd at least have an impact on the game over 90 minutes and not go missing like Westwood and KEA. And though Herd isn't the best passer, as our players can't play simple 5 yard passes anyway, he wouldn't look out of place.
I'd also like to see Herd in the defensive midfield slot, he'd give us some presence there and as Lambert seems to have no intention of playing Sylla there, despite it being his natural position, it's worth a go. The question is could Westwood step up a little further. I think he has an eye for the pass and alongside Delph could help fill the vacuum between our defence and strikers.
Right now, our problem is the midfield, we have such little faith in it the defence and Guzan just hoof the ball up to Benteke. A midfield that came bring the full backs into play in more advanced positions to provide service to the strikers, as well as attacking midfielders, seems the obvious way to go.
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Wouldn't shock me if Herd starts in midfield on sunday. No Delph and given how crap KEA is generally at home and he got the hook at half time I'd be surprised if he starts.
I would also start Sylla aswell otherwise our midfield would be nearly as pedestrian as whatever United put out in there.
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He's not a CB but I thought Chris Herd did pretty well yesterday.
I've got a lot of time for Herd. You can guarantee he will give everything for the team and that aussie mongrel spirit is always an asset.
One of those players that, if sold, could really improve. Unfortunately for him he's never had a run in the side (in the same position) except when we're desperate with injuries so it's hard to assess how good/bad he actually is.
Like Baker, he's poor on the ball and is way too rash in challenges. After the debacle of last Christmas, I hoped we'd never see Herd, Baker and Clark in the same defensive line up ever again. I was not remotely surprised that we looked all over the place at the back on Sunday with those three featuring.
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Really hard to read lambert on Injuries. Quotes today suggest vlaar could be out for Sunday or not, but also that 'I don't think it will be months again'.
Apart from Guzan he's the player we'd miss more than anyone. We did last year and he's playing way better this season
Although I'd love a creative midfielder I think an experienced centre back would be a priority if vlaar is out. I doubt we'd get one though
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The two full back positions should be filled by squad members that can defend. We have Lowton, Luna and Bennet all of whom can go forward quite well but are incompetent at their chosen position. Luna cannot even take a throw in properly! Lambert and his coaches seem blind to this. Defenders have to defend its not rocket science.
We are nowhere near good enough in a number of positions.
Chris Herd (although limited) at least gives his all for the club and is worth a run at right back.
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We badly need Vlaar back quickly.
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I know some people hate stats, but . .
@martinlaurence7: In the 41 league games Ron Vlaar has started Villa's goal difference is -7. In the 14 he hasn't since signing Villa's goal difference is -21
So when Ron plays we average 0.17 more goals against than we score. Probably about mid table form if guess - reasonably even but tending to lose a bit more heavily than we win.
You can't read too much into a much smaller pattern of games - three games this time last year will have done a lot of damage. But on that basis When he doesn't play we average one and a half a more goals against than we score per match.that must be bottom of the table stuff. Either way, it's pretty stark. I can barely think of a game we've played without vlaar - certainly when we've played a back four - where we've not conceded two goals or more. We certainly have in every game he's missed since he got injured this season
Surely lambert must see that and for all that we'd like a creative midfielder and better defensive midfield options, if vlaar remains out for a while we really are in trouble.
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Do people think donacien should be at least on the bench with all the defensive problems we are having .
Granted its at a lesser level but when I've watched him he's often impressed .
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Yet another frigging season where our first choice centre halves are not fit.
Over the past tean years, we have had zero luck with this position and long term injuries.
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Yet another frigging season where our first choice centre halves are not fit.
Over the past tean years, we have had zero luck with this position and long term injuries.
At the end of last season, I was hopeful that the Clark/Baker duo would never be the case at the centre of our defence.
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Yet another frigging season where our first choice centre halves are not fit.
Over the past tean years, we have had zero luck with this position and long term injuries.
At the end of last season, I was hopeful that the Clark/Baker duo would never be the case at the centre of our defence.
No we got the far scarier proposition of Baker and Herd CB ;)
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Vlaar is absolutely vital to our defence and he's been about absolutely outstanding this year.
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We've conceded 23 goals which is still only a couple more than the two Manchester clubs, Chelsea and Spurs have conceded as many as us.
We've conceded 9 in three and a half matches since Ron got injured so as daft as it sounds we'd have one of the best defences in the league if he'd stayed fit as I don't believe we'd have conceded half the goals with him on the pitch.
Just shows how important a senior head is at the back.
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We've conceded 23 goals which is still only a couple more than the two Manchester clubs, Chelsea and Spurs have conceded as many as us.
We've conceded 9 in three and a half matches since Ron got injured so as daft as it sounds we'd have one of the best defences in the league if he'd stayed fit as I don't believe we'd have conceded half the goals with him on the pitch.
Just shows how important a senior head is at the back.
And also shows what we know to be true from watching: if all the players were fit, we'd still have lots of problems going forward.
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Who was the last fullback that came through from the youth team and reserves and developed into a decent first team player. I am struggling to think of any in the last 10 years. If there has not been one, that is amazing for a club that has consistently well at youth and reserve team level. This is a position that you usually get time to develop in, unlike being thrown in at center back.
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Unless vlaar is able to recover in time, we face the prospect of a back four v Sunderland as follows:
Bacuna Lowton baker luna
I think that might be the worst back four I'll have ever seen villa play
I cannot see us getting anything out of a game if we have to play that way
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Why, is Clark banned?
You'd be right though. I'd put Donacien in, if needs be. He knows the position.
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Yep Clark is banned. Herd has a hamstring
I do tend to agree that if rather see donacien, but he can't be ripping up trees you suspect
He could go 352 again perhaps. Maybe sylla Lowton baker? Um. Really not sure!
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Herd is injured 90% of the time.
I'd have ML - JD - NB - AL with Westwood and Sylla as a midfield two stationed fairly deep. Three ahead of them and a striker. 4-2-3-1. Suits our plyrs best, that set up.
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Unless vlaar is able to recover in time, we face the prospect of a back four v Sunderland as follows:
Bacuna Lowton baker luna
I think that might be the worst back four I'll have ever seen villa play
I cannot see us getting anything out of a game if we have to play that way
The back 4 you mention above has to be one of the worst in my time but probably have to give that honour to the back 4 of 69/70 Mick Wright Brian Tiler Dick Edwards Charlie Aitken however Charlie was way better than Luna/Bennett but your right the probable back 4 for the Sunderland game is very scary.
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Both Herd and Baker seem to be ridiculously injury-prone. There doesn't seem to be a game go by without seeing Baker on the floor clutching something and looking anguished.
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Baker has been ok on the injury front this season. He normally only lasts about 3 games before picking up a knock of some sort.
If Vlaar is back as is being suggested he might, throwing Donacein in with him and Baker in a back five might be the way to go for this one game.
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Last season we were told Vlaar would be back on several occasions and come matchday he was still absent - I'd be surprised if he was risked having been out so long , the sooner he returns the better but only if 100% fit and ready - we don't want a recurrence of the injury .
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What's worrying with Vlaar is that he picks-up niggles more akin to quick, attacking players than big centre-backs. It always seems to be a calf-strain, which you associate with players who are constantly sprinting and twisting and turning, not centre-backs who cover far-less ground and play a fair portion of their game in the air.
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If Ron isnt 100% we should wait a while longer maybe until the Arsenal home game, that and the Liverpool game are not matches for the Clark/Baker central duo, lets bring back Ron when he is ready and not before, him being back in the first team is more important than Benteke returning.
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If Ron isnt 100% we should wait a while longer maybe until the Arsenal home game, that and the Liverpool game are not matches for the Clark/Baker central duo, lets bring back Ron when he is ready and not before, him being back in the first team is more important than Benteke returning.
If Clark was eligible I'd agree, but with the prospect of Baker being the senior Centre-Back I'd play Vlaar on crutches if needs be.
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I'd play Vlaar against Sunderland. Rest him for the FA cup game and Arsenal isn't until Monday 13th so ample recovery time to risk him playing.
Plus if he does suffer a relapse then the window is actually open to get a CB in on loan for rest of the season.
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We really need to avoid defeat v Sunderland so I'd play Vlaar if he looks vaguely fit. I think we'll lost the next two unfortunately, whoever plays.