Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Neil Hawkes on May 02, 2013, 09:13:57 AM
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With the events over the last few days, not just the win, but the vindication of " why are we persisting with this approach?".
Coupled with the very distinct possibility of long term contracts for all the players that fit in with our new playing/scouting/retention policy.
Is this week the watershed moment for PL, that SAF had with MUFC all those years ago?
While it is unlikely we could reach the phenomenal success achieved by MUFC; mainly because should we ever become a major force again, it would not mean that the current crop of untouchables would be outclassed. But to be able to compete with them on our own playing field/ criteria, in the long term, would be most welcome!
I have fingers/toes and all bendable body parts firmly crossed we can see a natural progression of PLs strategy for quite a few years to come.
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With the success of our reserves / youth / academy teams over the years, you would have to think that we would have as good a chance as anyone else, but Ferguson also had the expensive imports that have also pushed up the challenge of Chelsea and Man City. It has become like owning a house on Old Kent Road when others have four hotels on Park Lane and Mayfair. You need some good rolls of the dice to overcome that opposition. We have had one good throw and that was finding Benteke in Community Chest.
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Is this week the watershed moment for PL, that SAF had with MUFC all those years ago?
A little too early to think it might be something on that scale.
We've been playing half decent since January suggesting that the plan, if not baring fruit is at least budding. Next season, with a few key additions, a 'Benteke' in defence, a 'Benteke' in central midfield and a 'Benteke' back up keeper all of which are on nobody's radar would see us shoot up that table.
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Way too early to be talking about such things I think
A lot of people on here and the media thought Liverpool away was a watershed moment
I thought us winning the European Cup was a watershed moment - which it was, for all the wrong reasons
What I will say, slightly at a tangent, is I think it would take very little effort indeed to shoot up the table next season if we stay up. I think we are only 5 points off Swansea despite what has seemed like complete unremitting pain and misery at times this year. And when you look at the teams operating in positions 5 to 10, you realise how relatively easy it would be to get in amongst that mix. Much as I rate Moyes, I don't even think Everton are much more than a good workmanlike team and suspect their elevated position is as much about the generally poor standard of the league as it is about them really being that good...
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We could have said that after Anfield, so let's not get carried away.
In truth, there won't be any watershed moment - can you put your finger on one for Man Utd? What we are hopefully going to see is more of the Sunderland/Liverpool performances and less of the Chelsea/Wigan ones. This will be gradual until we look at ourselves and say "You know, this is a cracking side."
At best, Monday night was a moment of realisation for some, both in and outside of the Villa family, that there are brighter days ahead.
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I think Monday, plus periods of the games at Stoke and Reading, were glimpses of what could be if it all comes together. However, without wishing to piss on the bonfire, I would urge caution after one exceptional performance. Relegation is still a very real possibility, which could set us back years (a nice win at the weekend will hopefully put that issue to bed). There was similar optimism after the victory at Anfield and the aftermath of that wasn't pretty. Sunderland's recent experience is an example of how it can all look desperate one minute, then brilliant the next, and then quickly fall apart again. We don't suddenly have a good defence, our players haven't suddenly eliminated their flaws and limitations. The recent signs are good but there is still an awful lot to put right in my opinion.
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Although I was very nervous about the result beforehand, Blunderland couldn't have played a better game for us. Open, expansive and with only two holding midfielders. And, for once, we came out of the traps firing on all cylinders. And, we managed a full 90-minute game.
However, I do think something changed for us on Monday evening: we looked comfortable on the ball and were able to get our MF and supporting attackers (Gabby and Andi) helping out the defence when required; we played with and maintained a tempo that would have put most teams under pressure. And PL was not drawn into making any risky substitutions.
All of which we have seen in patches throughout the season: this time, it all came together, and PL now needs to build on that and repeat for each game.
It could be the start of something really exciting.
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A bit early to say that at this stage. I think it might be more suitable to say that the younger players are starting to develop and the hardship of this year may be the making of them. It's imperative that was survive and are in the Premier League next year. Hopefully this is the start of something great, but there is a long long way to go.
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We could have said that after Anfield, so let's not get carried away.
In truth, there won't be any watershed moment - can you put your finger on one for Man Utd? What we are hopefully going to see is more of the Sunderland/Liverpool performances and less of the Chelsea/Wigan ones. This will be gradual until we look at ourselves and say "You know, this is a cracking side."
At best, Monday night was a moment of realisation for some, both in and outside of the Villa family, that there are brighter days ahead.
Buying Cantona in 1992, they wouldn't be the same team now if they wouldn't had bought him off from the Leeds.
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We could have said that after Anfield, so let's not get carried away.
In truth, there won't be any watershed moment - can you put your finger on one for Man Utd? What we are hopefully going to see is more of the Sunderland/Liverpool performances and less of the Chelsea/Wigan ones. This will be gradual until we look at ourselves and say "You know, this is a cracking side."
At best, Monday night was a moment of realisation for some, both in and outside of the Villa family, that there are brighter days ahead.
Buying Cantona in 1992, they wouldn't be the same team now if they wouldn't had bought him off from the Leeds.
That was more a catalyst than a watershed. They were already title contenders, having finished 2nd to Leeds the year before, after having relatively struggled under SAF in his earliest years.
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Watershed moments are only identifiable with hindsight. Manyoo's could've been beating forest in the cup in '90. Given our stop-start up-down nature over the last thirty-one years, I'm pretty certain we've not had one, in that time-frame, prior to this season. In my lifetime, I'd pinpoint an event that happened when I was too young to know; appointing Vic Crowe. The club had reached its nadir, and that decision sparked a chain of events which would take some 12 years to reach The Greatest Night. But all traceable back to Crowe's appointment.
Maybe it was Monday. Maybe it was the swift removal of TSM. But it'd be fantastic if historians have this debate in the future, and they pinpoint a moment where I can say, "I was there"!
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We could have said that after Anfield, so let's not get carried away.
In truth, there won't be any watershed moment - can you put your finger on one for Man Utd? What we are hopefully going to see is more of the Sunderland/Liverpool performances and less of the Chelsea/Wigan ones. This will be gradual until we look at ourselves and say "You know, this is a cracking side."
At best, Monday night was a moment of realisation for some, both in and outside of the Villa family, that there are brighter days ahead.
Buying Cantona in 1992, they wouldn't be the same team now if they wouldn't had bought him off from the Leeds.
That was more a catalyst than a watershed. They were already title contenders, having finished 2nd to Leeds the year before, after having relatively struggled under SAF in his earliest years.
True but without Cantona they wouldn't had won the first PL title and without Cantona they wouldn't had capitulated on that and probably wouldn't had won four titles out of the five without him while he was at Manyoo. IMO Manyoo and Ferguson owes a helluva lot of their success to Cantona even after he retired.
This is off-topic but people probably forget how much of the complete footballer Cantona was and how huge leader on the pitch he was, at least for me he was probably greatest player of the 90s given the importance of him to Manyoo.
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Anfield was a bit different, you could say lucky. But Monday was different, completely. The players tore Sunderland apart all over the pitch. Not many clubs would have taken anything away from VP.
The difference in the two Mondays was huge.
UTFFAV.
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RE ManU. The watershed moment was that bloody ref against Wednesday.
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In truth, there won't be any watershed moment - can you put your finger on one for Man Utd?
Generally regarded as the moment Mark Robins scored the winner against Forest (?) in The Cup, which Man United went on to win. Fergie rumoured to be facing the sack if they went out of the competiton.
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Don't forget I'm not just referring to the match result, but also to the contract discussions and clear policy that ALL the performers are wanted by the manager/club longterm, not just to sell off at a profit at the first available opportunity.
I'm fairly certain there was one particular game during the early SAF tenure, whereby had the result not been in his favour he would have lost all faith/confidence in his vision - was our result against Sunderland the 'swinging vote of confidence' that we have been hoping to see all season - that this could, just could, reap great rewards for our dwindling historical superiority?
Just seen CHIII reference for SAF - cheers mate.
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If nothing else, Monday night was indisputable evidence that the potential is there. Now it's just a question of whether we can fulfil it.
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The biggest watershed moment of recent years was Stoke away when we were 2 up and end up 2-2. I hope this is the beining of something but how will we know until a few years down the line.
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RE ManU. The watershed moment was that bloody ref against Wednesday.
That was their Shed Seven moment.
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Nursey reckons it could well be a watershed moment:
Turning point? Why Aston Villa's thrashing of Sunderland is their most important result in three years
The media are sometimes accused of getting carried away on the back of one result.
But I really sense the ecstasy and relief generated by Villa's 6-1 demolition of Sunderland in Monday's televised game has been enormous.
And the implications of that sole win genuinely could be huge for the club both in the short-term and long-term.
I was at the game on Monday and then a guest at the club's annual golf event the following day with fans and Villa employees.
Everyone was buzzing with relief that the club now looks set to stay up but also in anticipation of the future after seeing an exhilarating insight into what boss Paul Lambert could regularly serve up next season.
Clearly in the short-term the three points gained from Sunderland are a significant and immediate boost to the club's desire to stay in the Premier League.
The momentum and feel-good factor engendered by the emphatic win should finally be the springboard to top-flight safety for Lambert's men, who now have 37 points.
But it was also an evening when all the Scot's gambles and faith in his relatively unproven crop of youngsters, lower league buys and foreign signings was vindicated.
And after being starved of entertainment last season under Alex McLeish's pragmatic side, Villa fans really lapped up their side's total football against Sunderland.
The second goal when Matt Lowton intercepted the ball and ran into the Sunderland half to find Andreas Weimann to score was a peach.
Villa were a joy to watch against Sunderland and the young ages of the side mean the team will only surely improve.
I know cynics will say Christian Benteke and Andreas Weimann could leave.
But let's see, as boss Lambert desperately wants to keep them and negotiations are already moving to tie the pair down.
I understand both Benteke and Weimann, aged 22 and 21 respectively, want to stay and deals could be sorted out sooner rather than later.
It is fascinating to think how good they could become with more experience.
The same applies to Matt Lowton, 23, and Ashley Westwood, also 23, who I thought were both exceptional against Sunderland.
Elsewhere Fabian Delph, 23, and Yacouba Sylla, 22, are developing into two enforcers capable of protecting the defence and rock-solid keeper Brad Guzan.
It was also great to see Gabby Agbonlahor back to his rampaging best - which saw him capped by England - using his pace and power to deadly effect.
While Ron Vlaar appears to be growing into the captain's role at Villa Park on the pitch as he showed by winning the ball and smashing in a spectacular opener.
Even left-back Joe Bennett, a frequent terrace target, had a good game.
So Villa not only have the nucleus of a decent, young side but real potential throughout the entire team and squad.
Fans are embracing Lambert's work as apparently the ticket office was swamped the day after the Sunderland win with requests for the Chelsea home game on May 11.
The knock-out effect has been tangible and I am struggling to think of a similarly significant result at Villa in recent years.
Last season a 3-1 win at Chelsea offered hope but it was followed by a 2-0 home loss to Swansea 48 hours later as Alex McLeish toiled as boss.
The previous season under Kevin McDonald and Gerard Houllier was eventful off the pitch but forgettable on it.
After some pondering I have to go back to 2009/2010 when Villa were chasing a top four spot and Champions League football.
They recorded impressive League wins over Liverpool, Chelsea and Manchester United and reached the Carling Cup final with a 6-4 semi-final second leg win over Blackburn.
But Martin O'Neill's side eventually missed out on the top four - coming a creditable sixth it must be said - and lost in the Cup final.
You sense this Villa current side also has real potential - which could yet make Monday April 29, 2013 a major milestone in the club's recent history.
Certainly Villa are finishing the season with a head of steam and are set to keep their manager for the first time in three summers so there will be some much-needed continuity.
And if Villa survive and prosper, as I expect, then you also have to credit Randy Lerner and CEO Paul Faulkner for keeping calm when an 8-0 thrashing at Chelsea and embarrassing Cup exits had some fans calling for Lambert's head.
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I hope that in years to come people look back on that night as a 'watershed moment' but if they do I think it will be more symbolic than a point where a corner was turned.
We've played well for periods in a number of game, but not taken chances and ended up nervously hanging on or conceding late equalisers.
This time we took our chances and the whole side swelled with confidence (as did the crowd), it was also helped by them having a man sent off. So it was 90 minutes of what we've only really seen for 45 before.
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The watershed moment will come in the summer when we manage to keep our best players and bring in more quality.
What's great is that there has been frequent evidence of what Lambert has been trying to build but generally just 45 minutes a game. Monday everything finally clicked and we finally got to see it over 90 minutes. There's still plenty to do but I salute the man for getting us to finally start playing intelligent, attractive and entertaining football. It's been long, long overdue. He also deserves credit for keeping the lads heads up during what has been a very testing season, especially for such a young squad.
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After all the whining and the moaning about Lambert Lerner and Villa's transfer policy - I truly hope it is a watershed - and illustrated to those who doubt just what it is that the club is trying to do. After all the 'not good enough' jibes aimed at these kids they are finally showing their metal.
It is a high water mark - in a season of lows - though in all honesty - even though we have taken some horrible thumpings - and repeatedly shot ourselves in both feet - the football played has actually been more fun to watch than at any time last season. When we have lost - we've lost while still trying to play football (however badly) - last time out I can not remember us ever really playing football at all. It was rather joyless and dull.
Can anyone here honestly say it is not more exciting this season than last? Can we not see improvement?
The newbies seem to be learning from their mistakes.
I hope they go on to have full and exciting careers - and I hope it is at Villa Park.
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Although I was very nervous about the result beforehand, Blunderland couldn't have played a better game for us. Open, expansive and with only two holding midfielders. And, for once, we came out of the traps firing on all cylinders. And, we managed a full 90-minute game.
Only two?! I thought one was the norm...
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Too early to talk about watershed moments.
I can think of plenty of times where we've thought we had one of those moments, only to find it go to shit the very next match.
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even though we have taken some horrible thumpings - and repeatedly shot ourselves in both feet - the football played has actually been more fun to watch than at any time last season.
Very true.
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I hope that in years to come people look back on that night as a 'watershed moment' but if they do I think it will be more symbolic than a point where a corner was turned.
Not only that but also where a corner was scored from...
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True but without Cantona they wouldn't had won the first PL title and without Cantona they wouldn't had capitulated on that and probably wouldn't had won four titles out of the five without him while he was at Manyoo. IMO Manyoo and Ferguson owes a helluva lot of their success to Cantona even after he retired.
In terms of comparisons, Cantona turned a good team into a great one. For us as a possible watershed, it's more a case of turing a poor team into a good one. If progression continues, then we'll need our Cantona in a couple of years.
But this is about Villa.
Some good comments on here and the one that resounds rightly to me is that we'll only know in hindsight. The dictionary definition of a watershed is:-
an important point of division or transition between two phases, conditions
In many respects, you could then, should we go on to achieve something with Lambert, point at Bolton at home last year. Had we won that and eased to safety would TSM still be manager? I fully believe that that loss, and the crowd reaction to it, lead to his sacking and therefore Paul's appointment.
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I think that the nature of the evening makes this one even more impressive. Before the game most people had described it as our most important game in the Premier League, with which I would probably have agreed. The fact that our players weren't affected by the massive pressure is a great sign. The fact that we repeatedly won the second ball showed our hunger. The performances of each of our players shows that we have a side that can really become a force.
A lot of pundits have said that staying up this season will mature a lot of our younger players and I agree, hopefully 3 points at Norwich on Saturday and we'll be able to give it "a right good go" next season.
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The comparisons -in any way- with Fergie's early years are fanciful.
Yanited were spending large sums on big players-more than the champions at the time- and that brings it's own pressure.
We are operating in a different stratosphere to that now, not for altruistic, selfless reasons. Or out of a sense of preserving the purity of the sport. But because we have to. We are cutting our cloth accordingly, and going with cheaper young players on cheap contracts.
Some will work, many (maybe even most) won't work long term. But we won't be burned as bad financially, with 'name' players on fat contracts just seeing out time.
Benteke has been a revelation, and if we can hold onto him this summer (and he remains hungry to improve) we should be comfortably mid table next year. That's a pretty big 'if,' based on our previous though. And In all my time supporting Villa, mid table finishes have never been a major thing to aspire to. It generally won't be enough to keep our better players on board either.
But for a work in progress, it is a reasonable expectation. Providing we stay up this year, of course. Which is by no means a given.
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Watershed moments are only identifiable with hindsight. Manyoo's could've been beating forest in the cup in '90. Given our stop-start up-down nature over the last thirty-one years, I'm pretty certain we've not had one, in that time-frame, prior to this season. In my lifetime, I'd pinpoint an event that happened when I was too young to know; appointing Vic Crowe. The club had reached its nadir, and that decision sparked a chain of events which would take some 12 years to reach The Greatest Night. But all traceable back to Crowe's appointment.
Maybe it was Monday. Maybe it was the swift removal of TSM. But it'd be fantastic if historians have this debate in the future, and they pinpoint a moment where I can say, "I was there"!
The watershed moment under Vic Crowe was changing to proper claret and blue jerseys at half time at Blackpool.
If Monday night was a watershed, and it could well be, I'd say it had more to do with the fact that we had a formation that really fitted the team and vice versa. Which really boils down to a balanced midfield which dominated their opposite numbers and at the same time allowed the full backs to play to their strengths.
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The watershed moment for me was the appointment of Lambert.
We've shown glimpses all season of what we're capable.
As well as making sure we tie the rising stars to long term contracts, we need to make sure of keeping hold of Lambert too.
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Things are looking up and Monday was wonderful. But there's still lots to do, even if we can hold onto our best players. Particularly in terms of improving the defence, which still looked very shaky in spells on Monday - both Vlaar and Baker, but also Guzan had a couple of dodgy moments. And we've got three tough games to come, which we need to win at least one of to stay up. I think we've won back to back games once in two years. So let's not get ahead of ourselves.
But Lambert is definitely building something positive, and we're enjoyable to watch, and I like all of our first team players. First time I can say that in quite some time.
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The watershed moment for me was the appointment of Lambert.
We've shown glimpses all season of what we're capable.
As well as making sure we tie the rising stars to long term contracts, we need to make sure of keeping hold of Lambert too.
That thought crossed my mind a few times lately. How long before the England managers position comes vacant again!
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I doubt they'd ever offer it to someone unlikely to take the job, GC.
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Too early to talk about watershed moments.
I can think of plenty of times where we've thought we had one of those moments, only to find it go to shit the very next match.
I agree. I thought after the two wins at Norwich and Anfield earlier in the season that we'd go on and have a good season, the Liverpool game especially. It was'nt just the fact that we won up there (we should have been 2 down in the first 10 minutes mind), it was the way we took the goals and how well we defended afterwards. That should have given them a lot of confidence. We all know what happened a few games later.
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I doubt they'd ever offer it to someone unlikely to take the job, GC.
That's what I would hope. That he won't leave even if offered the post.
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I couldn't ever imagine a scot accepting the England job. As such, I can't ever envisage one being offered it.
Not too worried about losing him in the short - medium term. He'd need to win a few things first before the likes of Man U or arsenal came sniffing around. Man city and Chelsea always seem to go for fancy dan foreigners and any other clubs in England ( all other clubs really :) would be a step down from villa.
If he does win a few things and go, then at least we'll have won a few things.
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The watershed moment for me was the appointment of Lambert.
We've shown glimpses all season of what we're capable.
As well as making sure we tie the rising stars to long term contracts, we need to make sure of keeping hold of Lambert too.
Totally agree. At the beginning of the season the whole playing side needed a big overhaul and some on here even predicted we would get relegated. Lambert is slowly turning it round, picking players on merit (no matter how inexperienced or young) and won't play players on reputation alone. A lot of the big salary earners will go in summer and this will free up money (salary wise) to get more exciting young players in.
Seeing the way some of the youngsters have performed and carried on trying their hearts out week after week after big knockbacks (Chelski, Bradford, Wigan & Spurs at home) makes me think we have a good future.
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Is this week the watershed moment for PL, that SAF had with MUFC all those years ago?
A simple NO. It's great and I believe but not there yet. This team needs to improve and win a cup next season.
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The watershed moment for me was the appointment of Lambert.
We've shown glimpses all season of what we're capable.
As well as making sure we tie the rising stars to long term contracts, we need to make sure of keeping hold of Lambert too.
Totally agree. At the beginning of the season the whole playing side needed a big overhaul and some on here even predicted we would get relegated. Lambert is slowly turning it round, picking players on merit (no matter how inexperienced or young) and won't play players on reputation alone. A lot of the big salary earners will go in summer and this will free up money (salary wise) to get more exciting young players in.
Seeing the way some of the youngsters have performed and carried on trying their hearts out week after week after big knockbacks (Chelski, Bradford, Wigan & Spurs at home) makes me think we have a good future.
Those predicting we would get relegated may still be right. Lambert has proved nothing yet except that his teams can attack well at times, defend appallingly most of the time, and that his tactics are very hit and miss.
Watershed moments are defined and identified by what happens afterwards, so they only really become apparent with hindsight. We'll have to see what happens next.