Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Jockey Randall on February 20, 2013, 10:58:29 AM
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Discussing our previous player of this ilk NRC in another thread, it got me thinking about why his career has taken such a nosedive?
I liked him and always thought he was a solid player for us who obviously enjoyed a tackle, but now struggling to find a club in what should be the peak years of his career aged 28, there must be some reason for this? It certainly doesn't appear like he's done a Michael Johnson and tossed his career down the toilet through booze and other antics.
I think I'm starting to come round to the view that it's a case of him being a victim of the evolution of football. Certainly at the end of the 2010 season, the total number of fouls in football had been in steady decline, I'd imagine it's very much still going that way. You only appear to have to blow on some players and they go down. I also think back to that Being Liverpool documentary where the players were constantly being told to stay on their feet. They can't be the only team being coached this? Maybe tackling is a dying art and this sort of player will gradually become extinct?
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I think it's more that he's just a very limited footballer who probably still over values himself. He was an athletic, physical player, but his footballing intelligence was almost completely missing. He was OK at short 5 yard passes, but his normal response upon winning the ball was just to drive football at speed with his head down until he ran into an opposition player. In his head he's probably still a top 6 Premier League footballer commanding £50K a week, when in reality he's probably better suited to the lower reaches of the Championship on £15K a week. He's also one of those players who has got better by not playing, if you know what I mean. For me personally, he's also another symbol of the failure of the O'Neill years, as NRC must have cost us more than £20m in fees and wages.
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NRC must have cost us more than £20m in fees and wages.
Randy could have bought Tranmere for that, pity
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I thought he stayed on his feet well, unlike Delph, he was very good at standing block tackles, hassling the ball off the opposition etc, just the rest of his game was very very limited.
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Limited or not, I'd jump at the chance to get him to bolster our currently shambolic midfield.
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Never rated him.
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Actually thinking about the way Barca have recently tried to utilise players of this type as central defenders, maybe this sort of player will gradually get pushed further back, and big central defenders who aren't comfortable in possession will suffer the chop instead?
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Barca can get away with it given the quality they have further forward, I think other teams would struggle. Strikers like Benteke would have a field day against 5ft7 centre halves.
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Barca can get away with it given the quality they have further forward, I think other teams would struggle. Strikers like Benteke would have a field day against 5ft7 centre halves.
Fair point. I'm speculating about the future of football though, as surely it seems logical that more teams will try and copy Barca's lead as they are widely considered to be the best side in the world? The way they play the game is clearly the best way to achieve consistent results at the moment. Look at Allardyce's style, it worked a lot better 9/10 years ago than it does today as the game has evolved. Teams like Arsenal that regularly struggled against this style are slowly finding ways to adapt and combat it.
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Actually thinking about the way Barca have recently tried to utilise players of this type as central defenders, maybe this sort of player will gradually get pushed further back, and big central defenders who aren't comfortable in possession will suffer the chop instead?
Why would you swap a 6'2" defender who isn't comfortable on the ball for somebody who is 5'9" and not comfortable on the ball? That's just about the worst defensive idea I've heard. Are you sure you're not Paul Lambert?
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Actually thinking about the way Barca have recently tried to utilise players of this type as central defenders, maybe this sort of player will gradually get pushed further back, and big central defenders who aren't comfortable in possession will suffer the chop instead?
Why would you swap a 6'2" defender who isn't comfortable on the ball for somebody who is 5'9" and not comfortable on the ball? That's just about the worst defensive idea I've heard. Are you sure you're not Paul Lambert?
I'm not saying it's my idea, just speculating as to where the game is headed. You're right though, I shouldn't have said big, being big should have no bearing on how good you are in possession of the ball. Although looking at Barca maybe there might be something in that?
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Actually thinking about the way Barca have recently tried to utilise players of this type as central defenders, maybe this sort of player will gradually get pushed further back, and big central defenders who aren't comfortable in possession will suffer the chop instead?
Why would you swap a 6'2" defender who isn't comfortable on the ball for somebody who is 5'9" and not comfortable on the ball? That's just about the worst defensive idea I've heard. Are you sure you're not Paul Lambert?
I'm not saying it's my idea, just speculating as to where the game is headed. You're right though, I shouldn't have said big, being big should have no bearing on how good you are in possession of the ball. Although looking at Barca maybe there might be something in that?
I don't think even Barcelona would play Messi in defence.
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But I don't think he's suggesting that they do.
He's saying that they play the likes of Song, Mascherano and (in the past) Toure in central defence rather than playing more typical central defenders like Puyol there.
Which they do.
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Mascherano isn't a talentless midfield destroyer though. And you might get away with it in Spain with Barcelona when your midfield usually has about 75% possession and 90% of balls are played on the ground, but I think it would be suicidal in the Premier League.
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But I don't think he's suggesting that they do.
He's saying that they play the likes of Song, Mascherano and (in the past) Toure in central defence rather than playing more typical central defenders like Puyol there.
Which they do.
Exactly, I feel like the original point has been lost though. You can talk about the talents of each individual player till you're blue in the face but really I was only offering a suggestion of where football and in particular this type of player would stand in say 30/40 years time. I'm not saying I'm convinced either way that this suggestion is right or wrong. More offering a point for debate.
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Having watched the Arse-Munchen referee last night flashing the yellow cards for relatively innocuous challenges I do think the tackle is endangered.
The midfield destroyer is changing its spots. Look at Petrov's stats of a couple of seasons' ago: he had the highest number of interceptions in the P'ship. Being a destroyer is now about breaking up the play rather than breaking an opponent's leg.
In the end, the game seeks highly-skilled, multi-faceted footballers, and tackling is not a skill - on its own - that will guarantee a path toward money heaven.
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Mascherano isn't a talentless midfield destroyer though. And you might get away with it in Spain with Barcelona when your midfield usually has about 75% possession and 90% of balls are played on the ground, but I think it would be suicidal in the Premier League.
Cannavaro was only 5 foot 9 inches tall and he would have cut it in the Premiership.
It comes down to being a good footballer ultimately. God was a sensational centre half because he was an exceptional footballer.
NRC will never make it as a centre half, not because he is 5 foot 9 inches tall, but because he is a very limited footballer.
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Mascherano isn't a talentless midfield destroyer though. And you might get away with it in Spain with Barcelona when your midfield usually has about 75% possession and 90% of balls are played on the ground, but I think it would be suicidal in the Premier League.
Cannavaro was only 5 foot 9 inches tall and he would have cut it in the Premiership.
It comes down to being a good footballer ultimately. God was a sensational centre half because he was an exceptional footballer.
NRC will never make it as a centre half, not because he is 5 foot 9 inches tall, but because he is a very limited footballer.
Being 6'2" would have hidden some of that though. If you're going to be short as a defencer, you have to be exceptional.
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The art of tackling is being removed from our game and not for it's good either. We all applaud fantastic shots and love to see someone going past a player with skill rather than speed but right up there with that, is the precision timing of a full blooded challenge which takes the ball and man out of the game cleanly. (by out of the game I mean at that moment).
Football is becoming the equivalent of netball with all the cries of there was contact, of course there was contact it's a bloody contact sport.
Back to NRC, for all his endeavour I wouldn't even class him as a good tackler, he could nick a ball here and there by chasing someone down but well timed sliding tackles and block tackles were not his forte. This along with all the other attributes he lacked made him a very lucky bloke to have made a career in the top flight of English football.
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He seems to divide opinion on here. I'd say he's a lot better than some of his critics on here suggest, but not as good as he thinks he is. As pointed out though, playing at his best level, he would walk straight into our team at the moment. He is actually one of the things we are lacking.
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Having watched the Arse-Munchen referee last night flashing the yellow cards for relatively innocuous challenges I do think the tackle is endangered.
The midfield destroyer is changing its spots. Look at Petrov's stats of a couple of seasons' ago: he had the highest number of interceptions in the P'ship. Being a destroyer is now about breaking up the play rather than breaking an opponent's leg.
In the end, the game seeks highly-skilled, multi-faceted footballers, and tackling is not a skill - on its own - that will guarantee a path toward money heaven.
That's exactly right. Players get very little leeway these days, the PL is becoming more European in nature and the NRCs of this world are becoming an anachronism. It's about blocks and interceptions rather than the old fashioned 'reducer'.
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Unless you are called Stoke
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I thought more team would like to sign more 6ft 2ish African/French players for midfield general role instead of the like of Reo Coker.
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NRC wasn't a midfield destroyer. He couldn't tackle any more effectively than your average player. His big attribute was his stamina, ability to close down opponents and a physical strength on the ball for a relatively short man. Unfortunately this was negated by a poor range of passing skills, whether over long distance or short. The same poor technique meant he also never looked likely to score a goal.
He's a guy who if he recognised his limitations and kept his game very simple would be an effective Premier League midfielder for a bottom half club. Unfortunately he thought he was better than what he actually was.
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I think it's more that he's just a very limited footballer who probably still over values himself. He was an athletic, physical player, but his footballing intelligence was almost completely missing. He was OK at short 5 yard passes, but his normal response upon winning the ball was just to drive football at speed with his head down until he ran into an opposition player. In his head he's probably still a top 6 Premier League footballer commanding £50K a week, when in reality he's probably better suited to the lower reaches of the Championship on £15K a week. He's also one of those players who has got better by not playing, if you know what I mean. For me personally, he's also another symbol of the failure of the O'Neill years, as NRC must have cost us more than £20m in fees and wages.
spot on for me regarding NRC
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the 'midfield destroyer' argument does my brains in, we need a 'hard man' in midfield to go and kick people is something we see quite alot, in my view its a load of cobblers
these so called midfield generals are always in the mold of Keane, Veira, Mascherano, Toure, Essien etc and completly negates the fact that whilst they are hard man, they are all also very very good footballers
take away there footballing ability and you just have a thug in the mold of Vinnie Jones, and is not what we need.
( best hard man plus skillfull/creative footballer all rolled into one was Johnny Giles ) just my opinion obviously
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But I don't think he's suggesting that they do.
He's saying that they play the likes of Song, Mascherano and (in the past) Toure in central defence rather than playing more typical central defenders like Puyol there.
Which they do.
Exactly, I feel like the original point has been lost though. You can talk about the talents of each individual player till you're blue in the face but really I was only offering a suggestion of where football and in particular this type of player would stand in say 30/40 years time. I'm not saying I'm convinced either way that this suggestion is right or wrong. More offering a point for debate.
If you look at the English clubs where money is no obstacle, there seems to be a move away from the stronger, physical type of player. Chelsea in particular illustrate this point. When they first started spending big in 2003, players of that ilk seemed to be a key focus. Ditto Man City.
Set peices are still such a huge part of the game in England -and they will be for the forseeable, IMO- so that aspect of play cannot be ignored to the same extent as it might be in other leagues, such as Spain, Italy and Portugal.
Some of that is cultural, those countries have long had a philosophy about how the game should be played, even before the emergence of teams like the modern day Barcelona. Some of it is physical, Northern Europeans tend to be taller than their Southern European counterparts. And some of it is simply practical, better weather in countries towards the Mediterranean = better pitches (traditionally) and less of a need to charge around simply to keep warm. Make the ball do the work. In rougher, bog-like conditions, the game is more stop start. And free kicks and corners take on more importance. I'm talking here about underage level -as professional clubs across the continent will have decent facilities and pitches (usually). But those traits are learned early -and are difficult to shake off in latter years.
For England, Germany provide a decent example of what a similar nation can achieve when you marry physical attributes with a focus on technical ability. Don't abandon the physical aspect of the game completely, just don't be over reliant on it.
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anyone else remember when Barcalona were the dirtiest side in Europe ?
tell kids today about it and they think your a nutter
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But I don't think he's suggesting that they do.
He's saying that they play the likes of Song, Mascherano and (in the past) Toure in central defence rather than playing more typical central defenders like Puyol there.
Which they do.
Exactly, I feel like the original point has been lost though. You can talk about the talents of each individual player till you're blue in the face but really I was only offering a suggestion of where football and in particular this type of player would stand in say 30/40 years time. I'm not saying I'm convinced either way that this suggestion is right or wrong. More offering a point for debate.
If you look at the English clubs where money is no obstacle, there seems to be a move away from the stronger, physical type of player. Chelsea in particular illustrate this point. When they first started spending big in 2003, players of that ilk seemed to be a key focus. Ditto Man City.
Set peices are still such a huge part of the game in England -and they will be for the forseeable, IMO- so that aspect of play cannot be ignored to the same extent as it might be in other leagues, such as Spain, Italy and Portugal.
Some of that is cultural, those countries have long had a philosophy about how the game should be played, even before the emergence of teams like the modern day Barcelona. Some of it is physical, Northern Europeans tend to be taller than their Southern European counterparts. And some of it is simply practical, better weather in countries towards the Mediterranean = better pitches (traditionally) and less of a need to charge around simply to keep warm. Make the ball do the work. In rougher, bog-like conditions, the game is more stop start. And free kicks and corners take on more importance. I'm talking here about underage level -as professional clubs across the continent will have decent facilities and pitches (usually). But those traits are learned early -and are difficult to shake off in latter years.
For England, Germany provide a decent example of what a similar nation can achieve when you marry physical attributes with a focus on technical ability. Don't abandon the physical aspect of the game completely, just don't be over reliant on it.
Which is why I expected Lambert to bring in a couple of players from the German Leagues with exactly those attributes when he took over.
I was wrong in my assumptions.
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The more effective teams have all shown that pressing high up the pitch as a team is far more productive than having one stopper doing it on his own, as teams will just pass around him.
Southampton have shown this in their few games since the new guy took over. On our better performances,even we've done it this season.
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anyone else remember when Barcalona were the dirtiest side in Europe ?
tell kids today about it and they think your a nutter
I remember they had someone with the nickname The Butcher of Bilbao playing for them in the eighties nasty piece of work he was.
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anyone else remember when Barcalona were the dirtiest side in Europe ?
tell kids today about it and they think your a nutter
I remember they had someone with the nickname The Butcher of Bilbao playing for them in the eighties nasty piece of work he was.
I may be wrong here as i usually am, but i think that was Rafa Nadals uncle who was known as that.
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The more effective teams have all shown that pressing high up the pitch as a team is far more productive than having one stopper doing it on his own, as teams will just pass around him.
Southampton have shown this in their few games since the new guy took over. On our better performances,even we've done it this season.
It's useful, but most importantly you need to be able to adapt depending on who you're playing against.
Press Real Madrid high up the pitch and they'll tear you apart as they are built to counter-attack. Press ManYoo high up the pitch (as we did for 50 minutes) and you'll probably have quite a lot of success.
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Very true, if it is done, its vital its done as a team, too many times weve had Delph or Holman tearing around,and the rest of our shape has gone awol.
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Destroyer, holding player, central midfielder, enforcer, player in the hole etc etc. all bollox. What's happened to the traditional all round midfielder? Get two of them in your midfield and job is done no fuss no muss!
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anyone else remember when Barcalona were the dirtiest side in Europe ?
tell kids today about it and they think your a nutter
I remember they had someone with the nickname The Butcher of Bilbao playing for them in the eighties nasty piece of work he was.
I may be wrong here as i usually am, but i think that was Rafa Nadals uncle who was known as that.
That was Miguel Ángel Nadal, The Butcher Of Bilbao was Andoni Goikoetxea.
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Andoni Goikoetxea.
Random keyboard taps!
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anyone else remember when Barcalona were the dirtiest side in Europe ?
tell kids today about it and they think your a nutter
I remember they had someone with the nickname The Butcher of Bilbao playing for them in the eighties nasty piece of work he was.
I may be wrong here as i usually am, but i think that was Rafa Nadals uncle who was known as that.
That was Miguel Ángel Nadal, The Butcher Of Bilbao was Andoni Goikoetxea.
He was known as the Beast of Barcelona.
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The reason players like NRC are disappearing is because teams afre demnding more of their defensive midfielders. To stick within the premier league the 2 to look at are Yaya Toure and, to keep the villa theme, Stan Petrov.
Toure has physically more like the traditional destroyer, but has the technique to also be a huge goal threat and creative influence.
Petrov is more a stand off and wait for an opportunity to get the ball player, which is the Barcelona model, again you have to offer something more though, NRC didn't really do that so is struggling to find a club.
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The reason players like NRC are disappearing is because teams afre demnding more of their defensive midfielders. To stick within the premier league the 2 to look at are Yaya Toure and, to keep the villa theme, Stan Petrov.
Toure has physically more like the traditional destroyer, but has the technique to also be a huge goal threat and creative influence.
Petrov is more a stand off and wait for an opportunity to get the ball player, which is the Barcelona model, again you have to offer something more though, NRC didn't really do that so is struggling to find a club.
I think teams are demanding more from players in every position.
The specialists are being killed off everywhere, full backs who can't attack, goal poachers who do little else, wingers, you name it.
Players have to be all rounders.
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Although it's an interesting debate about the model of the modern player being an all rounder, I still think NRC is more than good enough for sides in the bottom half of the PL. He may not exactly be Messi, but some on here are quite unfair to him and I'm guessing it's wage demands that have kept him from finding a club.
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Reo- coker has signed a 4 yr deal to play in the mls - will do ok over there.
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Reo- coker has signed a 4 yr deal to play in the mls - will do ok over there.
What a wanker. He is already a very wealthy man, he should have just taken a sensible wage and tried to get his career back on track at the very best level he was capable of. Instead he takes the American gravy train. Shows what a tosspot he is.
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Reo- coker has signed a 4 yr deal to play in the mls - will do ok over there.
What a wanker. He is already a very wealthy man, he should have just taken a sensible wage and tried to get his career back on track at the very best level he was capable of. Instead he takes the American gravy train. Shows what a tosspot he is.
He's accepted a (probably) better wage for an easier job with a better lifestyle surrounding it. Before calling him names, ask yourself if you'd have done the same or not?
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No John, I wouldn't.
He's already wealthy beyond comprehension for most of us and surely doesn't need the money.
You get one shot at this life, one shot to make the most of your career. For a man who supposedly had aspirations to play for England a few years back, taking the lucrative easy way out just demonstrates pure greed and / or lack of backbone to me.
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anyone else remember when Barcalona were the dirtiest side in Europe ?
tell kids today about it and they think your a nutter
I remember they had someone with the nickname The Butcher of Bilbao playing for them in the eighties nasty piece of work he was.
I may be wrong here as i usually am, but i think that was Rafa Nadals uncle who was known as that.
A friend at the bbc got me a whole copy of the entire super cup final ( only highlights were televised) and it was gruesome viewing watching it again - shocking dirty side barca were that night at villa park.
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I don't see what the problem is with him moving over there. There did'nt seem to be much interest from Premiership clubs for him and even Ipswich let him go. He's fancied a change and good luck to him.
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No John, I wouldn't.
He's already wealthy beyond comprehension for most of us and surely doesn't need the money.
You get one shot at this life, one shot to make the most of your career. For a man who supposedly had aspirations to play for England a few years back, taking the lucrative easy way out just demonstrates pure greed and / or lack of backbone to me.
If he had the chance to play for say an Everton, then maybe. If his options are clubs like Ipswich, then your argument holds very little veracity.
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The premiership is littered with players who have dusted themselves off after a difficult time and are now playing well - Maloney & Routledge spring to mind.
I suspect the Ipswich issue and his failure to find another club in the Premiership is as much to do with his wage demands as anything else. If he's half the player he thinks he is I'm sure he'd have found a reasonable Premier League club to take him if he'd been prepared to accept a more realistic wage.
The way I see it is he's blown his Premier League career because of greed.
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Good luck to him as far as im concerned - i wish him well .
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The premiership is littered with players who have dusted themselves off after a difficult time and are now playing well - Maloney & Routledge spring to mind.
I suspect the Ipswich issue and his failure to find another club in the Premiership is as much to do with his wage demands as anything else. If he's half the player he thinks he is I'm sure he'd have found a reasonable Premier League club to take him if he'd been prepared to accept a more realistic wage.
The way I see it is he's blown his Premier League career because of greed.
We have no way of knowing if that's true though. He might have offered himself to premier league clubs on a much lower wage but been turned away. You've decided it's all about money on the basis that he wanted big money 18months ago when his deal with us had just finished (at which point he'd had 4 years of appearing fairly regularly for a side with 3 6ths and a 9th in the richest league in the world, meaning he probably thought he deserved the money) the demands in january may have been perfectly reasonable for a premier league side but a bit rich for Ipswich. Given a choice of the championship or 3x the wage in the MLS it's a sensible decision.
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Well, of course we don't know for sure. But, I find it very difficult to believe that no premier league club would have taken a punt on him at a sensible wage. It seems very likely to me that he has priced himself out of the market. But we can only speculate and are all free to draw our own conclusions. I'm just surprised you so readily dismiss the obvious one.
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Good luck to him as far as im concerned - i wish him well .
Really? I couldn't give a toss about him one way or the other.
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A below average player with a hugely inflated sense of his own ability.
Not good enough then, not good enough now, and I suspect the MLS move is more to do with the paucity of other options open to him rather than him picking up a huge sum of money to go and play there.
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Lets face it, anyone who can put a tackle in is an endangered species these days.
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Reo- coker has signed a 4 yr deal to play in the mls - will do ok over there.
What a wanker. He is already a very wealthy man, he should have just taken a sensible wage and tried to get his career back on track at the very best level he was capable of. Instead he takes the American gravy train. Shows what a tosspot he is.
The controls on pay are very strict in the MLS, unless he's considered one of the brand enhancing marquee players he'll not be getting paid very much. On another thread someone suggested that the salary cap is around 4k a week.
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When it comes to my favourite type of player these days, I tend to have a prejudice for a certain type of tidy defensive midfielder who breaks up the opposition's attacks by winning the ball and giving it simple - the sort of job Kevin Richardson used to do so well.
Even when it comes to England Ladies my favourite player is Anita Ashante, who does a fantastic job protecting the back-four.
In recent times my personal favourite player performing such a job was Spain's Marcos Senna who was easily my favourite Spanish player when they won the European Championships in 2008. Claude Makélélé did a similarly wonderful job for Chelsea in his five years at Chelsea.
These days I think Sergio Busquets plays a similar role for Barcelona and Spain, and neither side look as good without him.
So I don't think they are a dying breed I just think they have to be better footballers and less reckless than they used to be when the beasts and butchers were crippling the likes of Keegan and Maradonna.
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I think the role has become somewhat redundant and replaced by positioning "footballers" in defensive positions. My guess is that the tackle from behind rule change has slowly reduced the ways that tackles can be made meaning that the usefulness of a "beast of..." type player is reduced. "Tackles" are now made through positioning and interceptions.
The current thinking is that the more tired a person is the worse their decision making and execution becomes. This has probably contributed to the death of the typical box to box player (and also I suspect the reason why there are so many injury breaks).
Those two things combined has meant that players are less likely to be hairing around like a headless NRC and are more likely to provide defensive cover through positioning (like Petrov and hopefully Westwood).
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I think there is most definitely a role for that type of player, depending on your opponent, and it's always an advantage to have a powerful player in the middle. Of course, if you're wanting to play good football then that player has to be comfortable on the ball, but if you go out with a lightweight midfield the chances are you are going to get bossed in the most important part of the pitch. Our midfield is far too small, it loses far too many 50-50 challenges and is rubbish at fighting for possession of high balls.
Alex Ferguson frequently sticks Phil Jones in midfield when he's playing good opposition, and look how easily teams have played straight through Arsenal since Song left. Does anyone seriously think they couldn't benefit massively from having Fellaini in their side?
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I think there is most definitely a role for that type of player, depending on your opponent, and it's always an advantage to have a powerful player in the middle. Of course, if you're wanting to play good football then that player has to be comfortable on the ball, but if you go out with a lightweight midfield the chances are you are going to get bossed in the most important part of the pitch. Our midfield is far too small, it loses far too many 50-50 challenges and is rubbish at fighting for possession of high balls.
Alex Ferguson frequently sticks Phil Jones in midfield when he's playing good opposition, and look how easily teams have played straight through Arsenal since Song left. Does anyone seriously think they couldn't benefit massively from having Fellaini in their side?
He's hardly a destroyer, though. He's a good footballer who can play anywhere across midfield or as a support striker. His size and strength allows him to out muscle opponents but he's not that good a tackler as he gives away far too many fouls.
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But it's never really been about tackling, though. Even back in the day, the midfield hard men weren't necessarily good tacklers, their job was essentially to put the opposition fancy dans in fear for their ankles and knees.
Whereas these days it's about intelligent covering, tracking back and interceptions, and your defensive mids really need to be good in possession. My point is that in a league like the Premier League, having a big athletic bugger in the middle can be a big advantage, particularly as there are so many aerial 50-50s to challenge for in that area.