Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine

Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: brian green on February 05, 2013, 07:55:51 PM

Title: Mistakes
Post by: brian green on February 05, 2013, 07:55:51 PM
If a handbook was in the course of being written setting out the dos and don'ts of Premiership football club ownership Villa examples would feature prominently.

Don'ts

Don't buy a club, put money into it then change your mind and cut off the money.

Don't appoint a manager with a three word brief "Save us money".

Don't allow the signing of players for large transfer fees and large wages and long contracts and not play them.

Don't behave like a recluse.   Communicate with the people who matter.

Don't allow the sale of all your best players without replacing them with players of equal or superior ability.

Don't appoint executives to run your club who have no grasp of or feel for football matters.

Don't appoint to ultra stressful jobs people with heart problems.

Don't use young and potentially good home produced players to bolster an inadequate squad and ruin them in relegation dog fights for months on end.

Don't listen if somebody tells you important things can be done on the cheap.  In this world you get what you pay for.

Don't forget that the important reason for the January transfer window is to enable clubs to give themselves a fighting chance of turning their seasons around, not for proving points about saving money.

Don't ever, ever assume that getting back into the Premiership is easy.   It is not and the longer you stay out of it the harder it gets.

Dos

Do listen to the supporters, they are not as stupid as you are led to believe they are nor as fickle.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: danlanza on February 05, 2013, 08:55:27 PM
Fantastic. I will add one to the list.
 Never give up on the Manager or the Players before the season is over. Keep faith in our policy and we will get better. Top six next season, no doubt, fucking easy lads and lasses. UTV
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: olaftab on February 05, 2013, 09:00:40 PM
One good "don't" in there IMO on CEO appointment.
Name me a club that has listened to supporters with respect to the team matters and football policy and succeeded?
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Can Gana Be Bettered!?!? on February 05, 2013, 09:03:03 PM
Bit harsh for criticising him on banging in a load of money to give MON the best chance of making us top 4. He obviously thought it could happen (which it nearly did), but it didn't, and now he's having to make some cutbacks.

As for the fans, I'd argue that a good amount of them are as stupid as they're led to believe.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Risso on February 05, 2013, 09:12:43 PM
Don't let football managers spend money without working out if you can afford it.
Don't tell the fans that three years of losses are all part of the plan.
Don't appoint a ginger customer services manager from a credit card call centre in Chester to run things.
Don't get your dad's mate in the army to be your spokesman on websites, and if you do, don't let him tell the proles that he'll be there through thick and thin, only for him to turn tail and leg it as soon as things get tricky.
Don't design your own badge, you aren't good at it.
Don't bleat on like a love sick teenager about a letter you got from another club's manager, it makes you look like you're in one of those photo stories from girls' comics in the 1970s.
Don't forget that if you've inherited a billion, and are going through a mid life crisis, American sports cars are a cheaper penis substitute than sporting clubs.
Don't forget that you said the following: "“There have been plenty of custodians of Aston Villa since 1874 and if I can’t make it work, I will do what the others did, move on and let someone else try"
Don't forget to buy a defender this Janu...whoops, too late.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Legion on February 05, 2013, 09:18:26 PM
A classic alongside Kipling's 'If'.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Malandro on February 05, 2013, 09:52:12 PM
Don't have your tour guides talking 70% of the time about corporate facilities, its kind of annoying when the footballing side is being neglected.
I have no criticism of the tour guides, they were fantastic. I had Mr Ansell (Forget his first name) on mine and he was brilliant.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Legion on February 05, 2013, 09:53:26 PM
Mark?
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Malandro on February 05, 2013, 10:00:49 PM
Mark?

He said he was no relation of the old board member or part of the brewery family. Nice guy though, talked to him quite a bit outside of the tour.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Ross on February 05, 2013, 11:58:44 PM
Fantastic. I will add one to the list.
 Never give up on the Manager or the Players before the season is over. Keep faith in our policy and we will get better. Top six next season, no doubt, fucking easy lads and lasses. UTV

Clever. Which division?
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: eastie on February 06, 2013, 07:24:32 AM
Fantastic. I will add one to the list.
 Never give up on the Manager or the Players before the season is over. Keep faith in our policy and we will get better. Top six next season, no doubt, fucking easy lads and lasses. UTV
You can not really say never give up on the manager during the season - many clubs have survived purely on the fact they have realised they have the wrong manager and addressed the problem to survive - if something is clearly not right you fix it !
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Jimbo on February 06, 2013, 08:04:30 AM
Don't run a grand old sporting institution like Aston Villa into the ground, forcing its manager to publicly admit it cannot compete with the likes of Stoke City.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Mister E on February 06, 2013, 08:19:36 AM
Fantastic. I will add one to the list.
 Never give up on the Manager or the Players before the season is over. Keep faith in our policy and we will get better. Top six next season, no doubt, fucking easy lads and lasses. UTV
You can not really say never give up on the manager during the season - many clubs have survived purely on the fact they have realised they have the wrong manager and addressed the problem to survive - if something is clearly not right you fix it !

What? Like Forest, you mean?
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: UK Redsox on February 06, 2013, 09:30:17 AM
Don't bail on a competition at the Quarter Final stage because the team has the vague possibility of being in with an outside chance of maybe finishing fourth in another competition.

(If I was to pick a specific day that things started to go wrong, I'd go with that one)
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Risso on February 06, 2013, 09:35:06 AM
Don't bail on a competition at the Quarter Final stage because the team has the vague possibility of being in with an outside chance of maybe finishing fourth in another competition.

(If I was to pick a specific day that things started to go wrong, I'd go with that one)

Don't buy Emile Heskey just because Michael Owen said he liked playing with him ten years ago.  (another specific point when things went down the shitter).
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: danlanza on February 06, 2013, 09:42:25 AM
Fantastic. I will add one to the list.
 Never give up on the Manager or the Players before the season is over. Keep faith in our policy and we will get better. Top six next season, no doubt, fucking easy lads and lasses. UTV
You can not really say never give up on the manager during the season - many clubs have survived purely on the fact they have realised they have the wrong manager and addressed the problem to survive - if something is clearly not right you fix it !
Morning eastie ;D
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Brend'Watkins on February 06, 2013, 09:48:05 AM
Don't use a letter from a red nosed couldn't give a shit about us as some kind of mandate for a decision of managerial choice.  And certainly don't go telling everybody about the letter.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: danlanza on February 06, 2013, 10:09:30 AM
Selling Young, selling Milner and not replacing them with quality players.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Concrete John on February 06, 2013, 10:14:14 AM
Selling Young, selling Milner and not replacing them with quality players.

I think at the time Young was sold N'Zogbia was his replacement, with Downing also going and Albrighton seen as stepping up into his place after an impressive debut season.  Milner was replaced by Ireland.

On paper, all pretty reasonable, but managerial instability has fucked it up as much as anything. 

So I suppose the real lesson is 'be sure when replacing your quality players'!

Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: pauliewalnuts on February 06, 2013, 10:16:17 AM
Don't blame it on the sunshine

Don't blame it on the moonlight

Don't blame it on the good times

Blame it on the boogie
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Malandro on February 06, 2013, 10:16:54 AM
Don't get players from Spurs just because you know Daniel Levy
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: danlanza on February 06, 2013, 10:22:26 AM
Selling Young, selling Milner and not replacing them with quality players.

I think at the time Young was sold N'Zogbia was his replacement, with Downing also going and Albrighton seen as stepping up into his place after an impressive debut season.  Milner was replaced by Ireland.

On paper, all pretty reasonable, but managerial instability has fucked it up as much as anything. 

So I suppose the real lesson is 'be sure when replacing your quality players'!
That's very true. I will go with that Concrete John.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Ron Manager on February 06, 2013, 10:34:08 AM
Don't blame it on the sunshine

Don't blame it on the moonlight

Don't blame it on the good times

Blame it on the boogie

Very good Paulie!
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Concrete John on February 06, 2013, 10:36:57 AM
Don't blame it on the sunshine

Don't blame it on the moonlight

Don't blame it on the good times

Blame it on the boogie

Very good Paulie!

I still think there's room for a 'Blame it on MON' in there somewhere!
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: ktvillan on February 06, 2013, 11:25:28 AM
Do learn from your mistakes
Don't repeat your mistakes
Don't try to go from A to C without going through B
Don't imagine you can veer from one extreme to the polar opposite and expect progress.
Don't forget the priorities for a football club are on the pitch
Don't forget relegation exists in English football, and can cause your investment serious if not terminal damage.
Do tell us what your intentions and policies are, so we know whether it's worth giving a damn any more.
Don't stop thinking abut tomorrow - it will soon be here
Don't go breaking my heart.
Specifically for Lerner -
Don't buy any more sports clubs - you are very very shit at running them
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Risso on February 06, 2013, 11:44:16 AM
Don't buy any more sports clubs - you are very very shit at running them

I can think of a few clubs I'd like him to buy.....SHA being the first.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Rudy Can't Fail on February 06, 2013, 12:39:38 PM
Quote
Don't appoint to ultra stressful jobs people with heart problems.

Houllier claimed his heart problem had nothing to do with job stress at Villa.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: ktvillan on February 06, 2013, 12:52:20 PM
Don't buy any more sports clubs - you are very very shit at running them

I can think of a few clubs I'd like him to buy.....SHA being the first.

Their current owner seems to making a fair fist of shafting them, but fair point.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Toronto Villa on February 06, 2013, 12:54:51 PM
Don't use a letter from a red nosed couldn't give a shit about us as some kind of mandate for a decision of managerial choice.  And certainly don't go telling everybody about the letter.

yeh, that was really, really bad. Kind of crawl under the desk in shame bad. One of those "please fucking tell me you didn't just say that" moments.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: pauliewalnuts on February 06, 2013, 01:01:15 PM
Quote
Don't appoint to ultra stressful jobs people with heart problems.

Houllier claimed his heart problem had nothing to do with job stress at Villa.

It was a congenital heart issue, so you're probably right there.

Mind you, playing devil's advocate, it was a heart issue he had before, and which he had when he joined us.

I actually thought the Houllier appointment was not a bad shout, given the options at the time.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: pauliewalnuts on February 06, 2013, 01:02:21 PM
Don't use a letter from a red nosed couldn't give a shit about us as some kind of mandate for a decision of managerial choice.  And certainly don't go telling everybody about the letter.

yeh, that was really, really bad. Kind of crawl under the desk in shame bad. One of those "please fucking tell me you didn't just say that" moments.

particularly the bit where he went on to say he kept it under lock and key, he considered it so precious.

That was truly toe-curling.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Rip Van We Go Again on February 06, 2013, 01:11:20 PM
Don't use a letter from a red nosed couldn't give a shit about us as some kind of mandate for a decision of managerial choice.  And certainly don't go telling everybody about the letter.

yeh, that was really, really bad. Kind of crawl under the desk in shame bad. One of those "please fucking tell me you didn't just say that" moments.

particularly the bit where he went on to say he kept it under lock and key, he considered it so precious.

That was truly toe-curling.

And said that he got it out of the safe every so often to read it.

It actually made him come across as a spotty, love sick 14 year old.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Toronto Villa on February 06, 2013, 01:21:19 PM
Don't use a letter from a red nosed couldn't give a shit about us as some kind of mandate for a decision of managerial choice.  And certainly don't go telling everybody about the letter.

yeh, that was really, really bad. Kind of crawl under the desk in shame bad. One of those "please fucking tell me you didn't just say that" moments.

particularly the bit where he went on to say he kept it under lock and key, he considered it so precious.

That was truly toe-curling.

And said that he got it out of the safe every so often to read it.

It actually made him come across as a spotty, love sick 14 year old.

I imagine he keeps it safe next to the signed picture of him with Justin Bieber. Not good.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: paul_e on February 06, 2013, 01:24:44 PM
Don't use a letter from a red nosed couldn't give a shit about us as some kind of mandate for a decision of managerial choice.  And certainly don't go telling everybody about the letter.

yeh, that was really, really bad. Kind of crawl under the desk in shame bad. One of those "please fucking tell me you didn't just say that" moments.

particularly the bit where he went on to say he kept it under lock and key, he considered it so precious.

That was truly toe-curling.

And said that he got it out of the safe every so often to read it.

It actually made him come across as a spotty, love sick 14 year old.

The actual quote:

"Sir Alex Ferguson wrote to me after the appointment, a proper letter, talking about his feelings about Alex. It was something you don't easily forget and it's now in a safe deposit box. Given what Sir Alex Ferguson means to the game of football, I don't think you could get many things that you would be more proud of, or reflect better on Alex McLeish."

It's bad enough without adding to it.

The worst thing is, it came in a statement stating how TSM had proven their faith in him to be correct and that we'd improve as a club.

The next day we went to tottenham, assumed the postion, and asked them to be gentle - quite possibly the worst performance I've seen from a villa side.  It was only 2-0 but they played like a training game and we might as well have stayed in birmingham for all the intent we had.  Even at our worst under PL I've never seen our players look so devoid of ambition as we were that day.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: LeeB on February 06, 2013, 01:42:57 PM
If there was one game of ours I'd scrutinse reagrding match fixing, then that Spurs game is it.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: UK Redsox on February 06, 2013, 02:15:46 PM
If there was one game of ours I'd scrutinse reagrding match fixing, then that Spurs game is it.

What about CSKA away ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/7900035.stm
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Risso on February 06, 2013, 02:29:22 PM
Thanks for copying that statement again paul, my toes have curled to such an extent I now look like Ali Baba.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: KevinGage on February 06, 2013, 02:46:34 PM
Smithers, I'm beginning to think Randy Lerner is not the brilliant tactician I thought he was.


There were warning signs before that, but that sealed it, alright.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Rip Van We Go Again on February 06, 2013, 02:48:02 PM
I'm sure he did an extended interview about the Fergie letter in The Times?

I also heard rumours that he'd had to have the letter laminated to protect it from his endless torrent of man mustard.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Damo70 on February 06, 2013, 03:42:26 PM
I think the managerial mistakes started when MON was still in charge. Word of disagreements had been going around for at least six months so maybe early pre-season was the time to back him or sack him rather than let him dictate the timing. Then we enforced a moral code on ourselves about not approaching an in work manager. The only other team to have done that was Small Heath and that was to avoid compensation. Then a manager with a history of health problems who had been out of both English football and club football for a while. Then a recently relegated manger with other negative issues involved. Then not backing your so called long term appointment in the urgent short term. Mistakes? Yes, one or two little ones.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: kipeye on February 06, 2013, 03:51:00 PM
Don't worry-Be happy  8)
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Dave Clark Five on February 06, 2013, 04:04:47 PM
Do wah diddy diddy dum diddy do.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: edgysatsuma on February 06, 2013, 04:27:40 PM
Listening to fans is a definite no, no. Most are that fickle. Apart from some of you lot that is  ;)

*cough* I talk a lot of shite
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: eamonn on February 06, 2013, 11:03:02 PM
So, he didn't actually ask for Ferguson's opinion before appointing McLeish? The letter came afterwards from Taggart. Not quite as bad as asking him for advice during the selection process. Though, that too may have happened I guess.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Lizz on February 06, 2013, 11:19:39 PM
With hindsight, the moment that highlighted Randy missing the proverbial point, imo, about the difference betten US/UK football fans was when an ex-US was player was at Villa Park and there were highlights of his career shown on the big screens. From memory, most of the crowd had no idea wtf was going on, but applauded out of politeness.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Pat McMahon on February 07, 2013, 12:11:39 AM
I think the managerial mistakes started when MON was still in charge. Word of disagreements had been going around for at least six months so maybe early pre-season was the time to back him or sack him rather than let him dictate the timing. Then we enforced a moral code on ourselves about not approaching an in work manager. The only other team to have done that was Small Heath and that was to avoid compensation. Then a manager with a history of health problems who had been out of both English football and club football for a while. Then a recently relegated manger with other negative issues involved. Then not backing your so called long term appointment in the urgent short term. Mistakes? Yes, one or two little ones.

What was also strange about Houllier was the insistence of the board on finding a manager who had Premier League experience.

Swansea and Brian Laudrup have shown that to be brilliant strategic thinking this season.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Rip Van We Go Again on February 07, 2013, 08:13:44 AM
So, he didn't actually ask for Ferguson's opinion before appointing McLeish? The letter came afterwards from Taggart. Not quite as bad as asking him for advice during the selection process. Though, that too may have happened I guess.
The belief is that they were impressed by McCatpiss's demeanour and friendliness after the 5-1 hiding we inflicted on him, he was quite genial where as most Managers would have fucked off straight after the game or sulked.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: robbo1874 on February 07, 2013, 08:18:56 AM
Funny, I got a mental image of Sid vicious in a white blazer and black leather pants shooting a pistol at the audience when I saw this thread title!
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Concrete John on February 07, 2013, 08:41:14 AM
So, he didn't actually ask for Ferguson's opinion before appointing McLeish? The letter came afterwards from Taggart. Not quite as bad as asking him for advice during the selection process. Though, that too may have happened I guess.
The belief is that they were impressed by McCatpiss's demeanour and friendliness after the 5-1 hiding we inflicted on him, he was quite genial where as most Managers would have fucked off straight after the game or sulked.

Would the likes of SAF have been like that after a 5-1 defeat?  For all his faults, MON got the team winning games and I've heard you had to give him a wide berth for a couple of days after we lost.  I think part of being a good manager is being a sore loser.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Rip Van We Go Again on February 07, 2013, 08:49:26 AM
I can't remember if it was The General or Carbon Neutral that mentioned about how they were iimpressed with him after the 5-1 drubbing.
Maybe somebody else can remember it?
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Brend'Watkins on February 07, 2013, 09:42:59 AM
I can't remember if it was The General or Carbon Neutral that mentioned about how they were iimpressed with him after the 5-1 drubbing.
Maybe somebody else can remember it?

The signs were there then.

Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser.
Title: Re: Mistakes
Post by: Damo70 on February 07, 2013, 04:48:25 PM
I could never understand how a man who took on the might of the old firm and europe with Aberdeen as a player with great success was so happy to accept defeat to 'bigger sides'.

As for Pat McMahon's point about the board and Houllier, I can never understand why they make early public statements on the managerial search which potentially paints themselves into a corner.
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