Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: jonzy85 on February 01, 2013, 10:31:08 AM
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This is something that is likely to divide opinion, but now we know he is our player until the end of the season, at least. I'm not sure where I stand myself.
But, 2 years ago he was bought for crazy money to keep us up and scored the goals to do just that.
There is no evidence that he has lost anything as a player in my opinion. This year a combination of injury and PL going with Benteke has meant he hasn't had a run of games and therefore hasn't been in good form. He has still showed, he knows where he goal us.
My question is, should we now look at introducing a system where we can get the best out of him and hope that he will score the goals to keep us up?
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Benteke scores about the same as Bent does, so can't see how much difference he will make. Unless we convert him to a centre half!
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No for me.
Our Best bet to get out of this is to switch to a 4231 and get the 3 drifting across the pitch and finding gaps. Bent can't play as 1 of the 3 and can't play up front on his own as well as Benteke so, as far as I'm concerned, he should be mainly used as an impact sub from now on.
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Don't know. Maybe.
In truth I'd be inclined to stick Benteke and Bent together for the rest of the season and try as best as possible to maximise the goals we get. We've got to do everything we can. If Bent scores enough, it could be the difference. It's all on Benteke at the minute.
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Don't know. Maybe.
In truth I'd be inclined to stick Benteke and Bent together for the rest of the season and try as best as possible to maximise the goals we get. We've got to do everything we can. If Bent scores enough, it could be the difference. It's all on Benteke at the minute.
tell Lambert we would need width too .
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No for two reasons, firstly he doesn't really play and we don't create chances for him. Secondly no striker in the world could compensate for the amount of goals we concede.
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He probably could but its more likely that the other 3 will do more.
Even if the strikers do their job, the problem has really been giving two goals away in every game.
There are single cell lifeforms in the deepest depths of the oceans that know this, that we needed a centre half or two to at least try and safeguard our top flight status.
However it has evaded the thinking of the powers that be at the biggest football club for 100 miles in every direction.
I can only conclude that witchraft is at play.
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Benteke scores about the same as Bent does, so can't see how much difference he will make. Unless we convert him to a centre half!
Benteke plays every game though, Bent doesn't.
I'd stick Bent in a leave him there till the end of the season. I like Benteke but he misses lots of chances. We need Bent's clinical finishing to save us, and as long as we have width (N'Zogbia are you listening?) we have a chance. It's our few remaining big players that will get us out of this god damn mess.
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Were too narrow to suit Bent, He is better when good balls are coming from the wings and we have no decent wingers, If there is one small hope left inside me its that this Dawkins kid can supply some good service (although N'Zog has improved of late)
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Yes but not if lambert is manager!
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Benteke scores about the same as Bent does, so can't see how much difference he will make. Unless we convert him to a centre half!
Benteke plays every game though, Bent doesn't.
I'd stick Bent in a leave him there till the end of the season. I like Benteke but he misses lots of chances. We need Bent's clinical finishing to save us, and as long as we have width (N'Zogbia are you listening?) we have a chance. It's our few remaining big players that will get us out of this god damn mess.
I meant in terms of goals to games. Someone put the stats on the transfer thread the other day and we actually get more from Benteke than Bent. When you add in Weimann, when was the last time we had two strikers on double figures by this point of the season?
The reason we haven't been scoring enough is therefore lack of goals from elsewhere in the team.
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Maybe Dawkins can provide some width. I'd keep Holman or N'Zog out wide too. Charley hasn't done too badly coming back into the side, but he plays centrally too much and I think it's nulifying a lot of his threat. Gabby can provide width but he's just too inconsistent. His workrate is fantastic but the end product has been mostly dire this season.
Do I think any of this will happen? Nope. Lambert will blindly take us down.
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Benteke scores about the same as Bent does, so can't see how much difference he will make. Unless we convert him to a centre half!
Benteke plays every game though, Bent doesn't.
I'd stick Bent in a leave him there till the end of the season. I like Benteke but he misses lots of chances. We need Bent's clinical finishing to save us, and as long as we have width (N'Zogbia are you listening?) we have a chance. It's our few remaining big players that will get us out of this god damn mess.
I meant in terms of goals to games. Someone put the stats on the transfer thread the other day and we actually get more from Benteke than Bent. When you add in Weimann, when was the last time we had two strikers on double figures by this point of the season?
The reason we haven't been scoring enough is therefore lack of goals from elsewhere in the team.
I still think Bent would come good in the games that matter. As I said before its the big players who could keep us up. We need width though. N'Zogbia must play every game out on the wing now if we want a chance of staying up.
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Holman , the last player we need when we are now in a fight.
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No. It has to be Weimann, Benteke and N'zogbia if they're all fully fit.
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He could but he won't. Lambert doesn't play to his strengths and the purchase of Benteke shows you the sort of striker lambert likes. It's pointless playing him as he's a spectator half the time. He hardly gets any service and the service he does get is not the type he thrives on. Only Villa would buy someone for a record amount, and then appoint two managers in a row who'd be much happier with Heskey.
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Yes if we play 4-4-2 .then he can play with Benteke.
With no width you need the strikers to go wide and both him and Benteke drift centrally too much
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Benteke scores about the same as Bent does, so can't see how much difference he will make. Unless we convert him to a centre half!
Benteke plays every game though, Bent doesn't.
I'd stick Bent in a leave him there till the end of the season. I like Benteke but he misses lots of chances. We need Bent's clinical finishing to save us, and as long as we have width (N'Zogbia are you listening?) we have a chance. It's our few remaining big players that will get us out of this god damn mess.
I meant in terms of goals to games. Someone put the stats on the transfer thread the other day and we actually get more from Benteke than Bent. When you add in Weimann, when was the last time we had two strikers on double figures by this point of the season?
The reason we haven't been scoring enough is therefore lack of goals from elsewhere in the team.
I still think Bent would come good in the games that matter. As I said before its the big players who could keep us up. We need width though. N'Zogbia must play every game out on the wing now if we want a chance of staying up.
I get your point and sort of agree, but Benteke HAS been a big player for us this season. Playing the two of them would mean at most a 4 man midfield, and we're too weal there not to play a 5, IMO. So if it's a straight chance between the two, I'd pick Benteke. Although that doesn't Bent won't still have a role to play until May.
Probably more important is Dunne coming back and being a big player for us.
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Benteke scores about the same as Bent does, so can't see how much difference he will make. Unless we convert him to a centre half!
Benteke plays every game though, Bent doesn't.
I'd stick Bent in a leave him there till the end of the season. I like Benteke but he misses lots of chances. We need Bent's clinical finishing to save us, and as long as we have width (N'Zogbia are you listening?) we have a chance. It's our few remaining big players that will get us out of this god damn mess.
I'd go with the formation we started the 2nd half on Tuesday. With Weimann and Gabby out wide, Benteke up front and Zog just behind with Sylla (if he is what we hope he is) in for Bannan.
If crosses sent in from our width aren't being converted then Bent comes on for Bentekee or vice versa. Gabby and Weimann will give us work rate when we need to defend.
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No for two reasons, firstly he doesn't really play and we don't create chances for him. Secondly no striker in the world could compensate for the amount of goals we concede.
Agree, when he was scoring for fun, he had good supply from Downing and Young. We just don't play with any real width, so we're not playing to his strengths. We've wasted his ability. A 20 goal-a-season man with the right supply. PL has handled him abysmally this season, and now will not get the best out of him. I don't really blame Bent - if my boss had treated me that way, I'd think ''fuck you''
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I'd pick Weimann over Bent, every time. The best finisher at the club by a mile, but he also works his backside off and he clearly wants it. The hunger is obvious.
Bent just looks like he's coasting to me.
Our best bet is to play Benteke and Weimann together as a front two, IMO. N'Zogbia in that roving attacking role just behind, or getting out to the left to give us width.
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I'd pick Weimann over Bent, every time. The best finisher at the club by a mile, but he also works his backside off and he clearly wants it. The hunger is obvious.
Bent just looks like he's coasting to me.
Our best bet is to play Benteke and Weimann together as a front two, IMO. N'Zogbia in that roving attacking role just behind, or getting out to the left to give us width.
Agreed.
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Nige is still available isn't he? On a free I'd snap him up now. Are we able to sign free agents now?
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I'd go with the formation we started the 2nd half on Tuesday. With Weimann and Gabby out wide, Benteke up front and Zog just behind with Sylla (if he is what we hope he is) in for Bannan.
If crosses sent in from our width aren't being converted then Bent comes on for Bentekee or vice versa. Gabby and Weimann will give us work rate when we need to defend.
I think we need to be a bit more cautious than that.
We can't do it until KEA gets back, but this is what I'd be thinking for the rest of the season:-
Guzan
Lowton - Vlaar - Dunne - Clark/Baker
Westwood - Sylla - KEA
Weimann - Benteke - N'Zogbia
It's probably our most solid three in the centre and KEA would have most licence to get forward. N'Zog would need to do the dirty work more than he does now and we have Bent and/or Gabby as impact subs.
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I'd go for:
Goose
Lowton
Dunne
Vlaar
Warnock
N'Zogbia
Sylla
Westy
Gabby/Holman/'Dawkins
Bent
Benteke
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Guzan
Lowton. Vlaar. Dunne. Baker
Westwood Sylla. Delph
Weimann. Benteke. Nzog/hawkins
Supertom - your team above has warnock , he has left the club.
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Bloody hell, never realised or expected we'd get rid of Warnock! The one time I want him in our side over the last 3 years and it's when he's fucked off! ha ha. Sums us up at the minute really.
Has Heskey left yet? :P
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He could if we played to his strengths.
We could play to his strengths if we had two decent wingers.
Unfortunately we sold them.
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Give him the ammo and I'm sure he'll do the job.
Giving him the ammo though....hmmmm, how does that work ?
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He's coasting his way to the end of season and a transfer. When he muffed that sitter at Bradford and hobbled off immediately with a twinged eyebrow it said it all.
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Every conversation about the qualities of Bent highlight the problem. People say he'd do fine if he had 'service' - and that's how Bent sees the rest of his team, set up for the purpose of serving him chances on a silver platter. Where we are, how frankly poor we are, we need everyone on the pitch to contribute to every part of play, and for that reason I would play Weimann over Bent every time.
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Every conversation about the qualities of Bent highlight the problem. People say he'd do fine if he had 'service' - and that's how Bent sees the rest of his team, set up for the purpose of serving him chances on a silver platter. Where we are, how frankly poor we are, we need everyone on the pitch to contribute to every part of play, and for that reason I would play Weimann over Bent every time.
I understand your point - but don't underestimate how valuable a 'finisher' is. Apart from Weiman we don't have a nother player who hits the six yeard box or attacks the near post. I've lost count of the number of times Benteke has drifted to the back post when the ball is out wide leaving no one in the box to cross to.
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Every conversation about the qualities of Bent highlight the problem. People say he'd do fine if he had 'service' - and that's how Bent sees the rest of his team, set up for the purpose of serving him chances on a silver platter. Where we are, how frankly poor we are, we need everyone on the pitch to contribute to every part of play, and for that reason I would play Weimann over Bent every time.
I understand your point - but don't underestimate how valuable a 'finisher' is. Apart from Weiman we don't have a nother player who hits the six yeard box or attacks the near post. I've lost count of the number of times Benteke has drifted to the back post when the ball is out wide leaving no one in the box to cross to.
Then Weimann can do it. Benteke does it more than he used to as well. The point is that Bent just stands around on the edge of the area before occasionally attacking the goal expecting the ball to be perfect.
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Do any stattos know Bent's goals total this season compared to his minutes on the pitch? Off the top of my head I would say it's not bad considering the lack of service/playing to his strengths.
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I'd like to see N'Zogbia and Bent given the rest of the season in the sides. Two talents who could make something happen. We've got to pray that CNZ can save us like he saved Wigan, and Benty might save us again as his first 6 months.
Play our best talents and hope they do something. I don't include Ireland because he's just too far gone IMO.
Hopefully Sylla adds some midfield bite. I want to see Vlaar really emerge now too and lead from the back. If Dunne gets back fit enough he has to play. Big IF though.
Forget the stubbornness Paul, we need to put our money on our biggest names. Bent attracted a big fee for a reason. CNZ for a reason too. They can dribble out of Villa in the "might have beens" club with little to show (especially in Charles' case) or they can provide the goals that keep us up and kick on into next year.
Benteke as a focal point can really help Bent and I'm amazed PL is so reluctant to partner them up. Benteke can make chances for Bent. Even if we have to resort to long balls, Benteke wins 8,9/10 headers and Bent reads these well.
Get some width. 2 up top. We need more goals. The defence is unsalvageable this season, so we've got to try and outscore teams.
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Benteke scores about the same as Bent does, so can't see how much difference he will make. Unless we convert him to a centre half!
Benteke plays every game though, Bent doesn't.
I'd stick Bent in a leave him there till the end of the season. I like Benteke but he misses lots of chances. We need Bent's clinical finishing to save us, and as long as we have width (N'Zogbia are you listening?) we have a chance. It's our few remaining big players that will get us out of this god damn mess.
I meant in terms of goals to games. Someone put the stats on the transfer thread the other day and we actually get more from Benteke than Bent.
Bent never plays 90 minutes though.
The fairest comparison would be goals per minutes and I imagine Bent would pwn Benteke on that score.
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To supply Bent effectively we need width, something we rarely see under Lambert. Playing Bent and one other striker would mean we would have to play with 2 central midfielders - something that causes us problems.
Personally I think if we play Bent we have to play 4-5-1, but then again I wouldn't leave out Benteke either.
Bent showed very very little against Newcastle, and the game changed when we had Gabby and Weimann running the channels showing pace and work rate. I would go 4-5-1 for Everton with Gabby and Weimann playing wide withTHREE central midfielders to enable us to at least compete and then Benteke up top.
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Seriously, how badly and anonymously does Bent have to play and how clearly better do we have to look with Benteke and Weimann in the side before people see how overrated Bent is? Seriously, I thought the Newcastle game would have been the clincher. I can't believe this debate is still happening.
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When starting this thread, I had in mind us adopting a system to bring out the best in Bent.
Benteke has been our player of the season so far, but if it comes to that one chance to get a win, I would rather it fall to Bent.
I think there has to be room in a 4-4-2 for them, with CNZ and maybe Gabby out wide. The problem with this is that we become very soft in the middle, so it is dependent on Sylla stepping up to the plate.
I think if we had the above players playing to their potential, we would steer well clear of relegation. Of course we would have to learn to defend set pieces first.
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Seriously, how badly and anonymously does Bent have to play and how clearly better do we have to look with Benteke and Weimann in the side before people see how overrated Bent is? Seriously, I thought the Newcastle game would have been the clincher. I can't believe this debate is still happening.
The thing about Bent is that he will have games like that and then pop up with the crucial goal. I've watched a few Man Utd games this year when Van Persie has done the same.
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Nige is still available isn't he? On a free I'd snap him up now. Are we able to sign free agents now?
Said the same to an Evertonian I work with this morning
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But Bent makes it actively harder for us to create chances, in any system, because he just stands around and expects people to feed him the ball like he's Zlatan. I'd also rather a chance fell to Weimann, he might do more than try and sidefoot it into the keeper.
The thing about Bent is that he will have games like that and then pop up with the crucial goal. I've watched a few Man Utd games this year when Van Persie has done the same.
But Van Persie has God knows how many assists. He even takes their corners! The comparison just isn't there.
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Bent will always score if provided with the right service. I don't think we have the manager, players or formation to do that so probably not. Besides he'd have to get 3 per game to overcome our defensive deficiencies.
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Bent practically kept us up the season before last scoring some fantastic goals,the two at Arsenal spring to mind.I don't remember anybody calling him lazy then? The fact is we have had two consecutive shit managers who haven't the first clue about how to play to his strengths.Bloody hell even Steve Bruce managed it.The constant chopping and changing of the team hasn't helped and refusing to play him must have dented his confidence( he is human).It's the manager that's overrated and basically useless not Bent.If he went to any other team in the league he'd be scoring hatfuls as he has done all his career
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As some have already said, our strikers aren't having a problem goal-wise. It is the rest of the team who are not chipping in. We should probably ask the same question about N'Zogbia really.
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Yep, Delph, Bannan, Westwood, Kea, N'Zogbia, Ireland, Holman and Albrighton have about 3 goals between them all season, which is really pathetic. The front 4 have 31 which is pretty good.
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Yep, Delph, Bannan, Westwood, Kea, N'Zogbia, Ireland, Holman and Albrighton have about 3 goals between them all season, which is really pathetic. The front 4 have 31 which is pretty good.
Now that's the point. And you have to ask yourself, who would be more likely to turn provider, Bent or Benteke, or Weimann?
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Bent has been shit all season. And yes, he has played and had chances. Offers less than Benteke & Weimann.
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Bent practically kept us up the season before last scoring some fantastic goals,the two at Arsenal spring to mind.I don't remember anybody calling him lazy then? The fact is we have had two consecutive shit managers who haven't the first clue about how to play to his strengths.Bloody hell even Steve Bruce managed it.The constant chopping and changing of the team hasn't helped and refusing to play him must have dented his confidence( he is human).It's the manager that's overrated and basically useless not Bent.If he went to any other team in the league he'd be scoring hatfuls as he has done all his career
I think the injuries he has suffered have taken their toll and he is not the same player he was then. He looks sluggish and can't even get off the ground to get anywhere near winning headers. For the past two seasons, he's hardly had a kick when he's started games and I agree with the previous poster who said that we just can't afford to carry passengers at the moment.
Going forward, I'm convinced that 4-2-3-1 is the best formation for us. LB is a problem, but I guess putting Baker there will at least help us with height when defending set pieces. The defensive midfield options should be Westwood, KEA, Delph and Sylla, and the attacking midfield options should be N'Zogbia, Bannan and Ireland. Gabby and Weimann out wide with Holman and N'Zogbia as options, leaving a choice between Benteke and Bent up front. If he is going to play, then we are going to have to completely change the way we play. We'll have to play through the attacking midfielder and wide players, and have Bent just in the team to be in the box.
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Benteke scores about the same as Bent does, so can't see how much difference he will make. Unless we convert him to a centre half!
Benteke plays every game though, Bent doesn't.
I'd stick Bent in a leave him there till the end of the season. I like Benteke but he misses lots of chances. We need Bent's clinical finishing to save us, and as long as we have width (N'Zogbia are you listening?) we have a chance. It's our few remaining big players that will get us out of this god damn mess.
I meant in terms of goals to games. Someone put the stats on the transfer thread the other day and we actually get more from Benteke than Bent.
Bent never plays 90 minutes though.
The fairest comparison would be goals per minutes and I imagine Bent would pwn Benteke on that score.
The comparison wasn't this season - it was over their respective Villa careers to date.
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Seriously, how badly and anonymously does Bent have to play and how clearly better do we have to look with Benteke and Weimann in the side before people see how overrated Bent is? Seriously, I thought the Newcastle game would have been the clincher. I can't believe this debate is still happening.
I don't know. I thought his 45 mins v Newcastle would have demonstrated perfectly why Lambert is reluctant to use Bent regularly.
As for the 'one chance' debate... my answer's Weimann. More clinical than Bent - Bent actually misses a lot - AND offers a great deal else. It's not a Benteke v Bent argument, it's a Weimann v Bent argument IMO.
Quite apart from getting injured regularly this season, Bent has shown that, almost the minute something goes against him (dropped once) his body language changes, and it becomes about him, nothing else. It's kind of indicative across some of the other senior players. Not sure they want to knuckle down and get us out of trouble.
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Benteke would be getting exactly the same accusations of lazyness if the team was set up to play to Bent's strengths instead of the other way around. Bent's not going to come back and retrieve the ball from midfield, hold up the ball or throw himself into tackles - thats not his game, anymore than its any goal poachers in the PL. Might as well complain why Vlaar doesn't cross more into the box from the wing. What you have with Bent is a goal hanger and played on the ground to his feet with him off the shoulder of the last defender, he's as good as anyone. He just doesn't get those balls. At all. If we were set up to play like that i'd he'd be in double figures by now, and we'd be good few places higher.
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Benteke would be getting exactly the same accusations of lazyness if the team was set up to play to Bent's strengths instead of the other way around. Bent's not going to come back and retrieve the ball from midfield, hold up the ball or throw himself into tackles - thats not his game, anymore than its any goal poachers in the PL. Might as well complain why Vlaar doesn't cross more into the box from the wing. What you have with Bent is a goal hanger and played on the ground to his feet with him off the shoulder of the last defender, he's as good as anyone. He just doesn't get those balls. At all. If we were set up to play like that i'd he'd be in double figures by now, and we'd be good few places higher.
Who would you supply him with?
Agree that we could've played 4-4-2 this year, but with who wide?
Two from Albrighton, Holman Carruthers and the Zog
and what about our midfield pairing? From Bannan Delph and Westwood?
I can see both sides of the argument.
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Benteke scores about the same as Bent does, so can't see how much difference he will make. Unless we convert him to a centre half!
Benteke plays every game though, Bent doesn't.
I'd stick Bent in a leave him there till the end of the season. I like Benteke but he misses lots of chances. We need Bent's clinical finishing to save us, and as long as we have width (N'Zogbia are you listening?) we have a chance. It's our few remaining big players that will get us out of this god damn mess.
I meant in terms of goals to games. Someone put the stats on the transfer thread the other day and we actually get more from Benteke than Bent.
Bent never plays 90 minutes though.
The fairest comparison would be goals per minutes and I imagine Bent would pwn Benteke on that score.
The comparison wasn't this season - it was over their respective Villa careers to date.
It was. I spent the time to do the sums and posted the comparison in the Transfer thread.
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Bloody hell, never realised or expected we'd get rid of Warnock! The one time I want him in our side over the last 3 years and it's when he's fucked off! ha ha. Sums us up at the minute really.
Has Heskey left yet? :P
yes but Salifou is working in catering at VP ;)
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Benteke would be getting exactly the same accusations of lazyness if the team was set up to play to Bent's strengths instead of the other way around. Bent's not going to come back and retrieve the ball from midfield, hold up the ball or throw himself into tackles - thats not his game, anymore than its any goal poachers in the PL. Might as well complain why Vlaar doesn't cross more into the box from the wing. What you have with Bent is a goal hanger and played on the ground to his feet with him off the shoulder of the last defender, he's as good as anyone. He just doesn't get those balls. At all. If we were set up to play like that i'd he'd be in double figures by now, and we'd be good few places higher.
Who would you supply him with?
Agree that we could've played 4-4-2 this year, but with who wide?
Two from Albrighton, Holman Carruthers and the Zog
and what about our midfield pairing? From Bannan Delph and Westwood?
I can see both sides of the argument.
i think the "no-wideman" arguement is a bit of a red herring. You don't need to be a winger to pass it on the floor to his feet, you just need someone who can pass! I don't think he's particurly good with crosses anyway.
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Benteke would be getting exactly the same accusations of lazyness if the team was set up to play to Bent's strengths instead of the other way around. Bent's not going to come back and retrieve the ball from midfield, hold up the ball or throw himself into tackles - thats not his game, anymore than its any goal poachers in the PL. Might as well complain why Vlaar doesn't cross more into the box from the wing. What you have with Bent is a goal hanger and played on the ground to his feet with him off the shoulder of the last defender, he's as good as anyone. He just doesn't get those balls. At all. If we were set up to play like that i'd he'd be in double figures by now, and we'd be good few places higher.
I tend to disagree, because I think Benteke would also thrive in the role/team set up you suggest Bent plays best in.
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Benteke would be getting exactly the same accusations of lazyness if the team was set up to play to Bent's strengths instead of the other way around. Bent's not going to come back and retrieve the ball from midfield, hold up the ball or throw himself into tackles - thats not his game, anymore than its any goal poachers in the PL. Might as well complain why Vlaar doesn't cross more into the box from the wing. What you have with Bent is a goal hanger and played on the ground to his feet with him off the shoulder of the last defender, he's as good as anyone. He just doesn't get those balls. At all. If we were set up to play like that i'd he'd be in double figures by now, and we'd be good few places higher.
I tend to disagree, because I think Benteke would also thrive in the role/team set up you suggest Bent plays best in.
well thats possible, but we'll never find out with the current manager
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Benteke wins every thing in the air , we just need Gary Shaw to finish off the knock downs.
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What you have with Bent is a goal hanger and played on the ground to his feet with him off the shoulder of the last defender, he's as good as anyone. He just doesn't get those balls. At all. If we were set up to play like that i'd he'd be in double figures by now, and we'd be good few places higher.
I think where that argument loses it's veracity is that set up for Benteke he's also got double figures, so how would we therefore be higher up the table?
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Benteke would be getting exactly the same accusations of lazyness if the team was set up to play to Bent's strengths instead of the other way around. Bent's not going to come back and retrieve the ball from midfield, hold up the ball or throw himself into tackles - thats not his game, anymore than its any goal poachers in the PL. Might as well complain why Vlaar doesn't cross more into the box from the wing. What you have with Bent is a goal hanger and played on the ground to his feet with him off the shoulder of the last defender, he's as good as anyone. He just doesn't get those balls. At all. If we were set up to play like that i'd he'd be in double figures by now, and we'd be good few places higher.
Who would you supply him with?
Agree that we could've played 4-4-2 this year, but with who wide?
Two from Albrighton, Holman Carruthers and the Zog
and what about our midfield pairing? From Bannan Delph and Westwood?
I can see both sides of the argument.
i think the "no-wideman" arguement is a bit of a red herring. You don't need to be a winger to pass it on the floor to his feet, you just need someone who can pass! I don't think he's particurly good with crosses anyway.
OK that's fair enough.
Just out of interest though, what would be your team to get the best from him?
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Benteke would be getting exactly the same accusations of lazyness if the team was set up to play to Bent's strengths instead of the other way around. Bent's not going to come back and retrieve the ball from midfield, hold up the ball or throw himself into tackles - thats not his game, anymore than its any goal poachers in the PL. Might as well complain why Vlaar doesn't cross more into the box from the wing. What you have with Bent is a goal hanger and played on the ground to his feet with him off the shoulder of the last defender, he's as good as anyone. He just doesn't get those balls. At all. If we were set up to play like that i'd he'd be in double figures by now, and we'd be good few places higher.
I tend to disagree, because I think Benteke would also thrive in the role/team set up you suggest Bent plays best in.
well thats possible, but we'll never find out with the current manager
Well it appears not. Which I think is a shame. He likes the big man up top with a few playing off and around him, be it Gabby, Weimann, Holman, N'zogbia, and maybe Dawkins.
It's very one-eyed though. I get not using Bent in that system, he doesn't do the grafting bit like you say, but surely there should be a time when we look to try something different.
I'd still have sold him though. If ever a player summed up 'going through the motions'...
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What's becoming clear to me is the team needs to be set up in a specific way to serve Bent best.
However, Benteke and Weimann appear to be doing well this season, despite a system/formation/strategy that does not get the best of out goalscorers....
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Benteke would be getting exactly the same accusations of lazyness if the team was set up to play to Bent's strengths instead of the other way around. Bent's not going to come back and retrieve the ball from midfield, hold up the ball or throw himself into tackles - thats not his game, anymore than its any goal poachers in the PL. Might as well complain why Vlaar doesn't cross more into the box from the wing. What you have with Bent is a goal hanger and played on the ground to his feet with him off the shoulder of the last defender, he's as good as anyone. He just doesn't get those balls. At all. If we were set up to play like that i'd he'd be in double figures by now, and we'd be good few places higher.
Who would you supply him with?
Agree that we could've played 4-4-2 this year, but with who wide?
Two from Albrighton, Holman Carruthers and the Zog
and what about our midfield pairing? From Bannan Delph and Westwood?
I can see both sides of the argument.
i think the "no-wideman" arguement is a bit of a red herring. You don't need to be a winger to pass it on the floor to his feet, you just need someone who can pass! I don't think he's particurly good with crosses anyway.
OK that's fair enough.
Just out of interest though, what would be your team to get the best from him?
not so much the team as the tactics. Hoofing the ball up for bent or chest height punts is pointless. He's not got the best first touch as it is
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What you have with Bent is a goal hanger and played on the ground to his feet with him off the shoulder of the last defender, he's as good as anyone. He just doesn't get those balls. At all. If we were set up to play like that i'd he'd be in double figures by now, and we'd be good few places higher.
I think where that argument loses it's veracity is that set up for Benteke he's also got double figures, so how would we therefore be higher up the table?
Well with that system you'd need someone in midfield who was comfortable with the ball on the ground and able to keep possession to at least get that far into the oppositions end to feed him. Presumably with more possession they'd be less goals the other end? Fantasyland i know.
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What you have with Bent is a goal hanger and played on the ground to his feet with him off the shoulder of the last defender, he's as good as anyone. He just doesn't get those balls. At all. If we were set up to play like that i'd he'd be in double figures by now, and we'd be good few places higher.
I think where that argument loses it's veracity is that set up for Benteke he's also got double figures, so how would we therefore be higher up the table?
Well with that system you'd need someone in midfield who was comfortable with the ball on the ground and able to keep possession to at least get that far into the oppositions end to feed him. Presumably with more possession they'd be less goals the other end? Fantasyland i know.
I think our possession stats have been OK at times this season. You mention the 'hoof' above, but in truth that only happens when we go a goal or two down, players lose confidence and start hiding, leaving the defenders with no other options.
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Bent would have been the perfect signing for us when we bought Heskey, we'd have probably got into the Champions League.
Now he's pretty much a passenger when he plays and i'd have Weimann ahead of him every time. You don't really need to look any further than our last game for the evidence, not only did he not get involved much but his touch was terrible.
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Benteke scores about the same as Bent does, so can't see how much difference he will make. Unless we convert him to a centre half!
Benteke plays every game though, Bent doesn't.
I'd stick Bent in a leave him there till the end of the season. I like Benteke but he misses lots of chances. We need Bent's clinical finishing to save us, and as long as we have width (N'Zogbia are you listening?) we have a chance. It's our few remaining big players that will get us out of this god damn mess.
I meant in terms of goals to games. Someone put the stats on the transfer thread the other day and we actually get more from Benteke than Bent.
Bent never plays 90 minutes though.
The fairest comparison would be goals per minutes and I imagine Bent would pwn Benteke on that score.
no the fairest comparison would be goals/assists per minute. Benteke gets picked ahead of him because as well as scoring a decent amount he creates stuff for the rest of the team as well. Weimann is similar.
In fact...
League Only (can't be arsed finding cup stats)
Darren Bent - 1 goal/assist every 329.5 minutes
Christian Benteke - 1 goal/assist every 141.3 minutes
Andi Weimann - - 1 goal/assist every 269.5 minutes
Benteke is clearly miles ahead of Bent and even Weimann has proven more effective. I don't see the point in changing the side to suit a player who has scored at marginally more than 1 in 4. However you argue it Benteke and Weimann deserve to be ahead of Bent this season.
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Doesn't surprise me Paul_e.
I'd argue that the side that played second half against Newcastle (with Bannan making way for Sylla if he's up to it) would be the way to go.
It might be hard to make a statistical case for Gabby as his goalscoring record is so poor these days, but we hold onto the ball far far better when he plays.
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Yes but not if lambert is manager!
Christ Almighty mate give it up at least until the end of the season you are like a stuck record!
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Gabby and Bent both have 5 in 18 this season but Gabby contributes more so I'd have him ahead of Bent. Given how we need to stiffen up defensively though I'd probably not start with either bearing in mind the form of Benteke, Weimann and N'Zogbia. Those three then Westwood, Delph and Sylla in midfield for me right now.
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Doesn't surprise me Paul_e.
I'd argue that the side that played second half against Newcastle (with Bannan making way for Sylla if he's up to it) would be the way to go.
It might be hard to make a statistical case for Gabby as his goalscoring record is so poor these days, but we hold onto the ball far far better when he plays.
So Bannan will make way for Sylla, leaving Westwood to be playmaker? Then we will see how little he contributes and fans will have a new 'Bannan' to pick on!
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Seriously, how badly and anonymously does Bent have to play and how clearly better do we have to look with Benteke and Weimann in the side before people see how overrated Bent is? Seriously, I thought the Newcastle game would have been the clincher. I can't believe this debate is still happening.
It's football, people can't see through their own prejudices.
I like players that adapt to the teams they play for myself.
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I'd pick Weimann over Bent, every time. The best finisher at the club by a mile, but he also works his backside off and he clearly wants it. The hunger is obvious.
Bent just looks like he's coasting to me.
Our best bet is to play Benteke and Weimann together as a front two, IMO. N'Zogbia in that roving attacking role just behind, or getting out to the left to give us width.
The best finisher at the club is Darren Bent. He is a renowned goalscorer....without any service under this manager who is not fit for purpose.
Yes Weimann has impressed everybody and Benteke obviously. Perhaps Dawkins has been taken on as a provider of chances for them I certainly hope so.
The centre backs are at the moment not up to it either physically or lacking in application.
Sylla played for a club in the lower reaches of the French second division but he will be a useful addition I hope.
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I'd pick Weimann over Bent, every time. The best finisher at the club by a mile, but he also works his backside off and he clearly wants it. The hunger is obvious.
Bent just looks like he's coasting to me.
Our best bet is to play Benteke and Weimann together as a front two, IMO. N'Zogbia in that roving attacking role just behind, or getting out to the left to give us width.
The best finisher at the club is Darren Bent. He is a renowned goalscorer....without any service under this manager who is not fit for purpose.
Yes Weimann has impressed everybody and Benteke obviously. Perhaps Dawkins has been taken on as a provider of chances for them I certainly hope so.
The centre backs are at the moment not up to it either physically or lacking in application.
Sylla played for a club in the lower reaches of the French second division but he will be a useful addition I hope.
I don't mean to pick on you Ron, but the bullshit people keep spouting about Bent is getting right on my tits.
He's done fuck all for the best part of eighteen months now. It's about time he started making things work for himself.
He's rapidly slipping into Stephen Ireland mode of being a hugely expensive chocolate fireguard.
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So Again Bent is being blamed for not performing in the first half against Newcastle. Yet there was no service to the forwards because there was no bleeding midfield. He isn't, and never has been the kind of player to create his own chances. How did Benteke do in that first half? Any better with the same service? Bent is a certain type of player, one who gets on the end of chances regularly and consistently, and puts a good percentage of them away. If you are going to play him you need to set your team up to provide chances for him, otherwise don't bother. But don't blame him for failing to put away non-existent chances. That's really not his fault, and only a moron would say he's not interested when he's got nothing to be interested in.
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Seriously, how badly and anonymously does Bent have to play and how clearly better do we have to look with Benteke and Weimann in the side before people see how overrated Bent is? Seriously, I thought the Newcastle game would have been the clincher. I can't believe this debate is still happening.
It's football, people can't see through their own prejudices.
I like players that adapt to the teams they play for myself.
Oh I agree, players should adapt not the other way around (most of the time). I was just a bit surprised at the reaction to the Newcastle game when he went off and we were better.
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Seriously, how badly and anonymously does Bent have to play and how clearly better do we have to look with Benteke and Weimann in the side before people see how overrated Bent is? Seriously, I thought the Newcastle game would have been the clincher. I can't believe this debate is still happening.
It's football, people can't see through their own prejudices.
I like players that adapt to the teams they play for myself.
Oh I agree, players should adapt not the other way around (most of the time). I was just a bit surprised at the reaction to the Newcastle game when he went off and we were better.
Weimann's better from the bench than Bent, who struggles to click into the pace of a game IMO. I'd play Bent and Benteke for the remainder with Andy to come on if Bent's struggling to get involved.
We've got to go for it now.
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Seriously, how badly and anonymously does Bent have to play and how clearly better do we have to look with Benteke and Weimann in the side before people see how overrated Bent is? Seriously, I thought the Newcastle game would have been the clincher. I can't believe this debate is still happening.
It's football, people can't see through their own prejudices.
I like players that adapt to the teams they play for myself.
Oh I agree, players should adapt not the other way around (most of the time). I was just a bit surprised at the reaction to the Newcastle game when he went off and we were better.
Weimann's better from the bench than Bent, who struggles to click into the pace of a game IMO. I'd play Bent and Benteke for the remainder with Andy to come on if Bent's struggling to get involved.
We've got to go for it now.
Weimann's just better than Bent for us though, from the bench or the start. Whatever the reasons for that, that is the reality of this season.
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Seriously, how badly and anonymously does Bent have to play and how clearly better do we have to look with Benteke and Weimann in the side before people see how overrated Bent is? Seriously, I thought the Newcastle game would have been the clincher. I can't believe this debate is still happening.
It's football, people can't see through their own prejudices.
I like players that adapt to the teams they play for myself.
Oh I agree, players should adapt not the other way around (most of the time). I was just a bit surprised at the reaction to the Newcastle game when he went off and we were better.
Weimann's better from the bench than Bent, who struggles to click into the pace of a game IMO. I'd play Bent and Benteke for the remainder with Andy to come on if Bent's struggling to get involved.
We've got to go for it now.
Weimann's just better than Bent for us though, from the bench or the start. Whatever the reasons for that, that is the reality of this season.
True, but I'm going on the blind hope/gamble that Bent suddenly recaptures his best form at the right time. Same goes for N'Zogbia and why I'd give him a good run in the side, out wide.
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Doesn't surprise me Paul_e.
I'd argue that the side that played second half against Newcastle (with Bannan making way for Sylla if he's up to it) would be the way to go.
It might be hard to make a statistical case for Gabby as his goalscoring record is so poor these days, but we hold onto the ball far far better when he plays.
So Bannan will make way for Sylla, leaving Westwood to be playmaker? Then we will see how little he contributes and fans will have a new 'Bannan' to pick on!
No I guess we wouldn't really have a 'playmaker' as such. Certainly not a deep sitting
'quarterback'. The front 3 (Benteke up front, Weimann inside right ish, nzog linking midfield and Benteke, will make things happen if we can get some sort of width. Like I said Gabby holds the ball up pretty effectively, meaning our full backs have more opportunity to come up the pitch, offering more width and meaning we don't invite pressure as much. I'd prefer him to Holman because although willing he turns over possession to often.
Sylla (again if he's up to it) & Westwood give us more solidity in theory, and can sit giving a defensive screen while picking out the more creative players up front. I'm not in the attack Bannan at every opportunity camp, but feel he could do wih a break anyway.
I'd see us picking up a few points playing like this, whether it will be enough to keep us up im not confident but think it would give us a chance.
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No idea if Bent can keep us up. I care about him as much as he cares about Aston Villa.
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I meant to add to my previous post, playing Bent while acknowledging he isnt a player who can crete for himself seems crazy. Benteke and Weimann can, as well as being able to finish other people's work.
Playing Bent you are having to hope that he and his supply line will improve in order for him to score goals, and we lose the hard working prescence of Weimann/Benteke and their ability to create for others.
I'm honestly amazed that anyone would play Bent unless the others are I'll/injured. It's the one bit of he team we have been getting right
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I meant to add to my previous post, playing Bent while acknowledging he isnt a player who can crete for himself seems crazy. Benteke and Weimann can, as well as being able to finish other people's work.
Playing Bent you are having to hope that he and his supply line will improve in order for him to score goals, and we lose the hard working prescence of Weimann/Benteke and their ability to create for others.
I'm honestly amazed that anyone would play Bent unless the others are I'll/injured. It's the one bit of he team we have been getting right
Yes.
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Bent could keep us up, unfortunately Ash Young and Downing havn't been replaced. So little service = little goals.
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I'd pick Weimann over Bent, every time. The best finisher at the club by a mile, but he also works his backside off and he clearly wants it. The hunger is obvious.
Bent just looks like he's coasting to me.
Our best bet is to play Benteke and Weimann together as a front two, IMO. N'Zogbia in that roving attacking role just behind, or getting out to the left to give us width.
The best finisher at the club is Darren Bent. He is a renowned goalscorer....without any service under this manager who is not fit for purpose.
Yes Weimann has impressed everybody and Benteke obviously. Perhaps Dawkins has been taken on as a provider of chances for them I certainly hope so.
The centre backs are at the moment not up to it either physically or lacking in application.
Sylla played for a club in the lower reaches of the French second division but he will be a useful addition I hope.
I don't mean to pick on you Ron, but the bullshit people keep spouting about Bent is getting right on my tits.
He's done fuck all for the best part of eighteen months now. It's about time he started making things work for himself.
He's rapidly slipping into Stephen Ireland mode of being a hugely expensive chocolate fireguard.
No offence taken Lee. You are quite welcome to your opinion and I am entitled to mine.
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I'd pick Weimann over Bent, every time. The best finisher at the club by a mile, but he also works his backside off and he clearly wants it. The hunger is obvious.
Bent just looks like he's coasting to me.
Our best bet is to play Benteke and Weimann together as a front two, IMO. N'Zogbia in that roving attacking role just behind, or getting out to the left to give us width.
The best finisher at the club is Darren Bent. He is a renowned goalscorer....without any service under this manager who is not fit for purpose.
Yes Weimann has impressed everybody and Benteke obviously. Perhaps Dawkins has been taken on as a provider of chances for them I certainly hope so.
The centre backs are at the moment not up to it either physically or lacking in application.
Sylla played for a club in the lower reaches of the French second division but he will be a useful addition I hope.
I don't mean to pick on you Ron, but the bullshit people keep spouting about Bent is getting right on my tits.
He's done fuck all for the best part of eighteen months now. It's about time he started making things work for himself.
He's rapidly slipping into Stephen Ireland mode of being a hugely expensive chocolate fireguard.
No offence taken Lee. You are quite welcome to your opinion and I am entitled to mine.
Quite right , Ron.
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Bent could keep us up, unfortunately Ash Young and Downing havn't been replaced. So little service = little goals.
Exactly. Bent is a luxury we can't afford in the team at the minute. Benteke, Weimann and Gabby do far more for the team and can all create chances of their own making.
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I meant to add to my previous post, playing Bent while acknowledging he isnt a player who can crete for himself seems crazy. Benteke and Weimann can, as well as being able to finish other people's work.
Playing Bent you are having to hope that he and his supply line will improve in order for him to score goals, and we lose the hard working prescence of Weimann/Benteke and their ability to create for others.
I'm honestly amazed that anyone would play Bent unless the others are I'll/injured. It's the one bit of he team we have been getting right
we are losing every game we play thou
I noticed we had no width first half against Magpies and all the strikers were rubbish and then second half we had width but he took Bent off , strange .
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I meant to add to my previous post, playing Bent while acknowledging he isnt a player who can crete for himself seems crazy. Benteke and Weimann can, as well as being able to finish other people's work.
Playing Bent you are having to hope that he and his supply line will improve in order for him to score goals, and we lose the hard working prescence of Weimann/Benteke and their ability to create for others.
I'm honestly amazed that anyone would play Bent unless the others are I'll/injured. It's the one bit of he team we have been getting right
we are losing every game we play thou
I noticed we had no width first half against Magpies and all the strikers were rubbish and then second half we had width but he took Bent off , strange .
I guess it depends if you think Bent was a victim or a big part of the cause of the problems in the first half. I'm not sure either way, I just know that, based on this season Bent should be 3rd choice for us.
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In this current situation, as has been demonstrated frequently, you cannot start games with Darren Bent. When teams find themselves in our situation, which is devoid of confidence, you must first start to make yourselves hard to beat, and that starts from the front, working its way backwards. We need to start forcing teams to work for possession of the ball, closing them down, preventing them from settling and forcing them into mistakes. We need to start winning the loose balls and attacking and defending as a discernible unit. Players like Bent are not going to assist in this regard. I favour a 4-4-2 system to shield the whole of the defence or possibly a 4-5-1 allowing players with pace like Gabby, Andi and Charlie to feed off Benteke when we press. The 2nd half performance against Newcastle was as perplexing as it was encouraging. I saw our players covering every blade attempting to stick their boys into row Z during every 50/50, but if we are capable of these fleeting moments why the hell can't Lambert form a decent side - it doesn't bode well I'm afraid. Give the boys every encouragement. The management are there to recruit, train, motivate and select the team. UTV.
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I meant to add to my previous post, playing Bent while acknowledging he isnt a player who can crete for himself seems crazy. Benteke and Weimann can, as well as being able to finish other people's work.
Playing Bent you are having to hope that he and his supply line will improve in order for him to score goals, and we lose the hard working prescence of Weimann/Benteke and their ability to create for others.
I'm honestly amazed that anyone would play Bent unless the others are I'll/injured. It's the one bit of he team we have been getting right
4th for me.
we are losing every game we play thou
I noticed we had no width first half against Magpies and all the strikers were rubbish and then second half we had width but he took Bent off , strange .
I guess it depends if you think Bent was a victim or a big part of the cause of the problems in the first half. I'm not sure either way, I just know that, based on this season Bent should be 3rd choice for us.
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Bent will always score goals and has never let us down in that. The problem is the amount of goals going in at the other end.
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Last time he did, he had Young and Downing supplying him, this time , hes got.... hmmmmm.............
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Bent wasn't the only reason we were so terrible in the first half on Tuesday - most of the blame has to go to the manager for the daft nonsense of a formation he played - but his presence didn't help, and Weimann's clearly did.