Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Ivo Stas on January 29, 2013, 03:20:00 PM
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We've conceded 16 goals from dead-ball situations in the Premier League this season (more than any other top-flight club). Under Alex McLeish, Villa conceded 25 goals from set pieces last season, which was the poorest record in the league. The season before, during Houllier's brief reign, Villa conceded 27 goals from set pieces.
This season we are man-to-man marking. Under Martin O'Neill we used zonal marking to great success, however we were still using it when leaking goals from corners under Houllier (see this article: http://www.birminghampost.net/midlands-birmingham-sport/west-midlands-sports/aston-villa-fc/2011/03/10/gerard-houllier-to-stick-with-zonal-marking-at-aston-villa-65233-28308876/ (http://www.birminghampost.net/midlands-birmingham-sport/west-midlands-sports/aston-villa-fc/2011/03/10/gerard-houllier-to-stick-with-zonal-marking-at-aston-villa-65233-28308876/)).
West Ham have conceded fewer goals (4) from set pieces than anyone else in the Premier League this season and they use man-marking. Chelsea use zonal marking and have been the second most resilient from set pieces, letting in five.
Is man marking the least worst option or should we give zonal marking a try..? Or does it not matter a damn if you don't have "brave as a lion" Martin Laursen..?
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I've always thought when defending corners, you have a big bloke at the front stick and all your best headers attack the ball. Forget the man, get your head on it and clear your lines.
Absolutely à la Martin Laursen.
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I'll take any marking whatsoever.
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Man marking. Space doesn't score goals. Men do.
But whatever, let's just get first to the ball.
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I didnt realise we defended corners?
I thought we just put the smallest guy on the team [Bannan] on the post [Shay told him he can use the net to get some hight when he jumps] then put the worst defensive header of a ball [Banteke] to mark the other teams biggest goal threat and everyone else was tasked to just watch?
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Newcastle will go all out for corners and free kicks tonight. I just hope we can hold out. Oh dear.
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The problem isn't just the marking. There's the jumping, the timing of the jump and the physical strength of our defenders when jumping. All of which is pretty shit.
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Stats suggest either. But obviously pick one, practice doing it, and once you cross that white line, keep your discipline and don't forget your training. Doddle, this management malarky
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You need players who want to attack the ball in the air, not just head it because they feel they have to because it is coming near them. Both systems work in my opinion if you have the above and some level of organisation.
Newcastle seem to have been as bad at scoring from set pieces this year as we have been defending them, how interesting....
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We seemed to get away with zonal marking under MON becuase we had the Dunne/Collins/Cuellar combination who would throw themselves in front of anything but man marking makes more sense. You need someone at the back taking charge and making sure everyone does their job though.
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Also another thing is try avoid getting those corners against us? I remember against Stoke, we kept giving throw ins to Delap, and cue they scored from one. We also tend to do loads of stupid fouls in the wingback areas, and many end up with goals. I think rule no 1 - try not get set plays against us. No 2, when they do - defend. Law of average will give them goals from set-pieces. Lets just keep the frequency down
(Example - Bennetts stupid lazy touch just rolled the ball to a corner against WBA, when with a bit of work, a throw in)
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I would go for a mix of the 2. Benteke is too careless to man mark, so for me he would be on the front stick with the head it at all costs mantra. Behind that man to man, but we are so small and weedy that man to man hurts us. Even Vlaar was out battled against Bradford.
We are desperate for 2 big strong men to come in to help. Until we do that we won't improve much.
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Newcastle seem to have been as bad at scoring from set pieces this year as we have been defending them, how interesting....
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You've only gone and jinxed us now.....
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To be honest, very few teams do just one or the other. Maybe very strongly leaning towards one of the methods, but by and large teams use a combination. There's nothing wrong with either of them really, you just have to attack the bloody ball.
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The opposition can't score if you get your head to it first. Just get a couple of players willing to attack the ball come what may and clear it.
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Man marking is better in this league than zonal for most defences.
As stated a thousand times, the goal of every defender in that box is to get your head on the ball. If it's near you, attack it.
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I would go for a mix of the 2. Benteke is too careless to man mark, so for me he would be on the front stick with the head it at all costs mantra. Behind that man to man, but we are so small and weedy that man to man hurts us. Even Vlaar was out battled against Bradford.
We are desperate for 2 big strong men to come in to help. Until we do that we won't improve much.
As I've said before under MON Carew or Heskey were always on the front post to head away any under hit corners. We didn't concede a huge amount although obviously the likes of Laursen, Knight and Cuellar helped in that respect aswell.
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Oh FFS.
The bloody system's irrelevant.
Good players can defend, bad ones can't. End of...
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When it mattered, we used to have lively debates on the subject. For the record, I agreed with Perce and our former Danish captain.
Now, nobody gives a fuck.
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That article in the OP is bullshit. Houllier switched from zonal to man-marking which resulted in the same defenders who were previously the best in the country at defending set-pieces becoming the worst. Now, with a weaker set of centre-halves, man-marking, where they have to compete physically with opposing players, is even more stupid.
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Player standing still v man running = significant impetus/height advantage during challenge, end of.
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Players man marking = easy to block off and free headers. end of :)
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End of = End of!
End of.
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As with any system, it depends on the players you have. As has already been pointed out, MON used zonal and we didn't particularly have a problem with set-pieces. Houllier went to man-to-man and the problems started. Since then we've changed the personnel so I have no idea what would work best for this group of players.
For 92 minutes on Saturday we defended set-pieces well enough against a team with good delivery and players like Fellaini who have caused the best defences in the league problems with his power in the air. The problem was the number being given away - 15 corners and something like 26 free-kicks. This came back to not being good enough to have an even share of possession. If you keep the ball better, the other team don't get fouls or corners.
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O'Neill's watertight defence is a bit of a myth. During his first two sixth place seasons there was only one club in the top half of the table who let in more goals than us and although this improved in his final season we also scored a lot less goals than the teams around us.
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O'Neill's watertight defence is a bit of a myth. During his first two sixth place seasons there was only one club in the top half of the table who let in more goals than us and although this improved in his final season we also scored a lot less goals than the teams around us.
It was the Dunne Collins partnership that finally sorted out our defence. They clearly had limitations but neither were soft touches when it came to backs to the wall defending.
Our need is for that sort of experience again.
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O'Neill's watertight defence is a bit of a myth. During his first two sixth place seasons there was only one club in the top half of the table who let in more goals than us and although this improved in his final season we also scored a lot less goals than the teams around us.
It was the Dunne Collins partnership that finally sorted out our defence. They clearly had limitations but neither were soft touches when it came to backs to the wall defending.
Our need is for that sort of experience again.
Sometimes I wonder if football hasn't got so obsessed with multi-tasking - forwards who can 'track back,' central defenders who have to be 'good in possession' that we forget they're mainly supposed to be good at one job.
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The quality of defending has declined across all of the Premier League over recent seasons. Far more goals conceded which wouldn't have been in the past. You only have to watch the Sunday morning programme and see how often Kamara goes on about stopping a cross - which you would have thought would be very basic for a Premier League team. At one time the team that would win the top division would only concede something like 12-20 goals all season.
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I'd stick with man marking. You just have to know when to step off and give a little space and when to go in tight. Everyone in out back line needs to be trained and disciplined in the art of every kind of situational defending.
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The OP asks a valid question - but it may be one beyond many of us to fully understand.
What we can all understand is that we have been using a man for man system and it has been failing us. So the question then becomes is it the system or is it the players? Whatever the answer to that it is clear that Vlaar is weak at man marking. Bradford outfoxed him and so did Everton - indeed watching the Villa players struggle to stay tight as their targets run around in the box speaks of disaster. For me they are so focused on their man that they often fail to see the dangers lurking elsewhere.
A change to a zonal system would at least simplify the system - each player is responsible for a certain zone - and if the ball approaches it he clears it. It is simpler - and it can still be made to work with man marking for specific dangerous targets. I would suggest Andy Carroll and Kevin Nolan as examples.
Zonal is used far more often on the continent - it trusts players to read the game more - and could well allow Vlaar to perform at his best.
One other thing. At Everton I was amazed at how Anechebe was allowed to constantly obstruct Guzan by blocking him off from catching the ball. Villa compounded this because the man marking system insisted that even Anechebe be man marked. So Guzan ended up with two players blocking him - one of theirs and one of ours. Guzan was fouled repeatedly but the ref couldn't see for the mass of bodies in front of him.
West Ham will do the same with Kevin Nolan. I would suggest a zonal defence would prove easier for our boys to operate, as well as focusing the ref's attention on the barely legal tactic of obstructing the goalkeeper at corners.
The simple truth is this - whatever the system - if it doesn't suit the staff - you need to change it to one that does suit them. Zonal may be that change, but we won't know unless Lambert tries it. And given how many points we have thrown away this season with the current system - I don't think giving a new one a try will really hurt.
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