Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Rip Van We Go Again on January 24, 2013, 08:49:35 AM
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Randy Lerner potentially has a week to save Villa’s season.
If Lerner thinks Paul Lambert is still the man to rescue Villa – and the jury among the fans is very much out – then he must free up the funds to give him a fighting chance of survival. If not, then the secretive billionaire must act swiftly and decisively to bring in a boss who can give this faltering football club the kiss of life it so desperately needs, before it is too late.
Either way, Villa are crying out for a fresh impetus in the dressing room and/or the manager’s office and the choice is stark: back Lambert or sack him. Or do nothing, of course. Villa can take positive action to influence their fate or they can fiddle while Witton burns. The chances are, given Lerner’s reluctance to dismiss managers – particularly mid-season – that Lambert’s job is safe – for now. So before the transfer window closes on January 31, sufficient cash must be made available to bring in experienced players to halt Villa’s alarming slide towards the Championship.
Tuesday’s defeat by League Two Bradford was unacceptable and embarrassing, but not particularly surprising.
It was the culmination of arguably the most depressing four-week period in Villa’s history. Humiliation after humiliation.
The Capital One Cup semi-final exit might not even be the lowest point of this season – come May, Villa could exit the top flight too.
The real problem facing Villa now is relegation.
Villa are one of the biggest clubs in the country and founder members of the Football League and the Premier League.
Going down is unthinkable.
But they have won only four league games all season and, with eight draws and 11 defeats, that’s just 20 points out of a possible 69.
They sit just a point and a place above the bottom three – and their minus-25 goal difference is worth another point to their relegation rivals.
This is a bleak mid-winter indeed and it’s amazing how patient the fans have been. It’s almost as if they have accepted the inevitable.
Some blame Lambert for the naivety of his tactics and his recruitment policy, some doubt whether any other manager could do more during the club’s current malaise and some would not trust the board to recruit a better replacement given their track record of previous managerial appointments.
As the club’s chief custodian, has a responsibility to break his silence and tell the worried band of followers exactly how he intends to stop the rot.
He can’t just sit behind a veil of privacy, saying nothing, hoping everything will be okay.
Fans are desperate for reassurances that he still cares enough for their club to bring Villa back from the brink.
If not they want to know whether the novelty has worn off to the extent that he is considering selling up and leaving.
Nobody is taking for granted the £200 million Lerner has already pumped into the club, but by doing so he created an expectation that this club would go forwards, not backwards under his ownership.
Once you raise hopes by embarking upon a Grand Designs project to restore a listed English Heritage stately home to its former glory, there is something of an obligation to maintain it, rather than letting it go to rack and ruin when the high end fixtures and fittings need replacing.
We appreciate Lerner is trying to balance the books but if Villa go down it will cost them more than £60 million in lost Premier League revenue.
Villa can’t keep relying on the kids who have been playing their hearts out but just don’t have the necessary nous for this kind of battle or the inconsistent seniors.
They need help and Lerner must give them that help.
Over to you, Randy.
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Don't hold your breath.
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Don't hold your breath.
I doubt he'll give a flying fuck in a rolling doughnut.
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'Is this the Birmingham, Alabama, Mail?'
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'Is this the Birmingham, Alabama, Mail?'
ha ha.
He'll probably end up wiping his arse (ass) on it.
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fair play to the mail though, at least they are trying to communicate the concerns we have. It probably the only way the message 'might' get across.
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Doubt he or faulkner will even bother reading it .
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What's so frustating virtually more than anything is the lack of communication from the club. I mean fucking hell, is there a poorer club in the Premier League for PR? it's horrendous it really is.
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Can't disagree with much of that letter.
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What's so frustating virtually more than anything is the lack of communication from the club. I mean fucking hell, is there a poorer club in the Premier League for PR? it's horrendous it really is.
There is plenty of communication from the various departments such as marketing, ticket office, hospitality etc but when it comes down to playing matters there is nothing. Even if they didn't say anything but actually did something it would be a start. I am pissed off over this continual silence.
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fair play to the mail though, at least they are trying to communicate the concerns we have. It probably the only way the message 'might' get across.
This.
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Lerner and Faulkner might take a bit of notice if the letter was signed by that whiskey faced bully from Govan.
The pair of starry eyed fuckin' buffoons.
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Agree with its key point. Either back him with money or get someone in who can motivate, organise and coach the existing players because Lambert can't
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They should be asking why the books need balancing? Appalling business management to get in that much of a mess.
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What's so frustating virtually more than anything is the lack of communication from the club. I mean fucking hell, is there a poorer club in the Premier League for PR? it's horrendous it really is.
There is plenty of communication from the various departments such as marketing, ticket office, hospitality etc but when it comes down to playing matters there is nothing. Even if they didn't say anything but actually did something it would be a start. I am pissed off over this continual silence.
Agreed and those pointless interviews with players on the website, which are finished with 'buy tickets for 'insert name of club'. Well how about the club give us a reason to think they're doing anything with hard earned money it costs to buy tickets and support the club?
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The problem is we get lots of communication about it, Lambert says something regarding transfers in every interview, it's just that no one wants to believe it, so they act like nothing has been said then post things like "I don't care if we're not going to spend but they should let us know", which is clearly not the case.
Lambert has said numerous times that he's looking to get 1-2 in but that they won't be big names. That's the intention, right there, it's vague, it's probably not enough for what we need but the message has been made public a number of times.
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Agree with the messaging above.
I think there's value in targeting Faulkner as welll, since he is apparently RL's 'eyes and ears' and supposed decision-maker at the club.
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Can't disagree with much of that letter.
It could have been worded better as Tuesdays game was not actually a defeat.
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Can't disagree with much of that letter.
It could have been worded better as Tuesdays game was not actually a defeat.
It doesn't say the game was. We were defeated by Bradford in the cup.
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The problem is we get lots of communication about it, Lambert says something regarding transfers in every interview, it's just that no one wants to believe it, so they act like nothing has been said then post things like "I don't care if we're not going to spend but they should let us know", which is clearly not the case.
Lambert has said numerous times that he's looking to get 1-2 in but that they won't be big names. That's the intention, right there, it's vague, it's probably not enough for what we need but the message has been made public a number of times.
Does that mean we are not going to sign Britt Assabolonga or Exodus Geohagon?
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Agree with the messaging above.
I think there's value in targeting Faulkner as welll, since he is apparently RL's 'eyes and ears' and supposed decision-maker at the club.
He needs to go to bloody Specsavers and have his ears syringed in that case.
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He won't get rid of Faulkner.That would mean breaking the Cambridge old boys oath.
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Lerner and Faulkner might take a bit of notice if the letter was signed by that whiskey faced bully from Govan.
The pair of starry eyed fuckin' buffoons.
'whiskey faced' love it
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He won't get rid of Faulkner.That would mean breaking the Cambridge old boys oath.
Yep - he went to a Great University therefore he must be great at EVERYTHING. It's the Proletariat that get in the way - those Pesky fans
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It would help if as 'a letter' it was addressed to Lerner rather than being, in effect, an Editor's comment.
I don't expect Lerner will respond, though we'll perhaps get something from Faulkner. Whatever is said though, will only be analysed in minute detail, distorted according to each person's viewpoint and complained about.
I'm not sure there is any sort of answer that would placate people, even if he said he was employing a DoF, pumping in another £100m and selling tickets for a tenner people would only complain it hadn't been done before, wasn't enough and was a bad idea in income terms.
However, it's wrong that nothing at all has been said.
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Why do we need the evening mail to correspond our concerns we the FANS should be holding a protest about our beloved club im not surprised the yanks wife left him.LERNER WE NEED INPUT FROM YOU AND YOUR GENERALS YOU HAVE MADE TWO BAD BAD CALLS OVER THE LAST TWO SEASONS IN ANY OTHER INDUSTRY YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN SACKED.
COME ON SHOW US YOUR TRUE COLOURS BEFORE ITS TOO LATE
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The problem is we get lots of communication about it, Lambert says something regarding transfers in every interview, it's just that no one wants to believe it, so they act like nothing has been said then post things like "I don't care if we're not going to spend but they should let us know", which is clearly not the case.
Lambert has said numerous times that he's looking to get 1-2 in but that they won't be big names. That's the intention, right there, it's vague, it's probably not enough for what we need but the message has been made public a number of times.
yeah but thats the point. There's so many proviso's on it its not worth bothering with. Saying there's a chance we won't get anyone in, or they could be loan players, and then disappearing up the owner's arse when anyone ask him about the finances is not what anyone wants to hear.
Bottom line is we need good players to arrive to stay up - they are not cheap. If Lambert doesn't know that then he's a fool. If he knows that but won't say it to Lerner or publicly, then he's the wrong guy for us - you need a manager who can stand up to an owner and put a bit of pressure on them, not another yesman like TSM who's content to sail towards an iceberg because somone above him ordered it.
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It would help if as 'a letter' it was addressed to Lerner rather than being, in effect, an Editor's comment.
I don't expect Lerner will respond, though we'll perhaps get something from Faulkner. Whatever is said though, will only be analysed in minute detail, distorted according to each person's viewpoint and complained about.
I'm not sure there is any sort of answer that would placate people, even if he said he was employing a DoF, pumping in another £100m and selling tickets for a tenner people would only complain it hadn't been done before, wasn't enough and was a bad idea in income terms.
However, it's wrong that nothing at all has been said.
It's not a letter, but a message, as the title says. I don't particularly want to hear from them as no doubt it would be the usual senseless drivel, and the clearest message they could send would be to back the manager in the next few days.
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I just imagine Lerner sat in a massive drawing room in a faux Gothic mansion in Ohio, staring wistfully into the middle distance, day-in day-out never moving or saying anything... as members of staff bring him food and then take the barely touched food away...
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have they used the Villa badge ripped in half picture yet ?
UTV
The Doc
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I'm not sure there is any sort of answer that would placate people, even if he said he was employing a DoF, pumping in another £100m and selling tickets for a tenner people would only complain it hadn't been done before, wasn't enough and was a bad idea in income terms.
Whilst I'd agree, an "answer" in the form of a press release, or whatever, is utterly pointless, he needs to take action, not just talk about it.
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I just imagine Lerner sat in a massive drawing room in a faux Gothic mansion in Ohio, staring wistfully into the middle distance, day-in day-out never moving or saying anything... as members of staff bring him food and then take the barely touched food away...
I bet he has a butler called Smithers.
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I just imagine Lerner sat in a massive drawing room in a faux Gothic mansion in Ohio, staring wistfully into the middle distance, day-in day-out never moving or saying anything... as members of staff bring him food and then take the barely touched food away...
I bet he has a butler called Smithers.
Don't you mean Faulkner...
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I just imagine Lerner sat in a massive drawing room in a faux Gothic mansion in Ohio, staring wistfully into the middle distance, day-in day-out never moving or saying anything... as members of staff bring him food and then take the barely touched food away...
I bet he has a butler called Smithers.
Don't you mean Faulkner...
Thats the one.
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do you trust him to be able to hire a good butler?
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Probably just try and hire Carsen Yeung's old butler.
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This situation is getting beyond ridiculous now.
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This situation is getting beyond ridiculous now.
Agreed. I think the entire body of supporter opinion has now turned.
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Maybe Lerner has brought into this 'it'd be better to be relegated and have a clean slate' nonsense. It wouldn't, our team doesn't have anywhere near enough about it to come straight back up. We would continue to spiral down under our current cost cutting 'plan'.
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What's so frustating virtually more than anything is the lack of communication from the club. I mean fucking hell, is there a poorer club in the Premier League for PR? it's horrendous it really is.
PR? What a way to treat your PAYING CUSTOMERS!! A complete disgrace. I noted from the recent Guardian article on the club's current state of affairs that Lerner's last Press Conference was in May 2010! I think he stated then that we were still striving to break into the Champions League. Now it's the Championship looming! His level of ignorance to the fans is despicable.
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This situation is getting beyond ridiculous now.
Agreed. I think the entire body of supporter opinion has now turned.
In what way? That's not a flippant question, more of a turned against who and what?
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Just a thought, was anyone bothered about R Lerners lack of communication when we were riding high a few years back ?
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Just a thought, was anyone bothered about R Lerners lack of communication when we were riding high a few years back ?
I was.
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Just a thought, was anyone bothered about R Lerners lack of communication when we were riding high a few years back ?
We had the General to speak to then, we have no-one now
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So was Pat Murphy.
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Just a thought, was anyone bothered about R Lerners lack of communication when we were riding high a few years back ?
I was.
Yes but didn't he have the General giving updates at the time, and like it or not we had a very effective media freindly communicator in charge of football affairs.
I quite liked the fact he lacked the Mike Ashley approach of sitting drinking beers with fans or the Glazer draining the fans dry approach.
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Just a thought, was anyone bothered about R Lerners lack of communication when we were riding high a few years back ?
Yes. Go back through old posts if you like. I was shouted down about 'that is the way he is'. I don't blame people for thinking that at the time. It is akin to 'don't change a winning team', but it didn't smell right to me.
As I said before 'beware the silent man and the dog that doesn't bark'.
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Just a thought, was anyone bothered about R Lerners lack of communication when we were riding high a few years back ?
I was.
Yes but didn't he have the General giving updates at the time, and like it or not we had a very effective media freindly communicator in charge of football affairs.
I quite liked the fact he lacked the Mike Ashley approach of sitting drinking beers with fans or the Glazer draining the fans dry approach.
At the beginning the general opinion was that it was great he wasn't in the press all the time like Doug and that pissing the media of in this way was an added bonus. We weren't told much by the general but everything was good news so it didn't really matter who said it and how. A few lone voices said the club were in danger of alienating the media and there would come a time when they'd need a friendly face or two but what did we know? The good times were going to last forever and we were just jealous that we weren't 'in the loop' as it was put to me.
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To be fair, back then we could see what the plan was, so it didn't matter as much that Randy never spoke.
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Just a thought, was anyone bothered about R Lerners lack of communication when we were riding high a few years back ?
Yes. Go back through old posts if you like. I was shouted down about 'that is the way he is'. I don't blame people for thinking that at the time. It is akin to 'don't change a winning team', but it didn't smell right to me.
As I said before 'beware the silent man and the dog that doesn't bark'.
And there was always the Cleveland Browns dire performance under his stewardship floating about silently in the background but acknowledged by a lot of us at the time as something we all preferred not to think about...
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To be fair, back then we could see what the plan was, so it didn't matter as much that Randy never spoke.
Back then we were winning, so it didn't matter. It wouldn't matter now, if we were winning. When you're winning nothing else matters.
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Just a thought, was anyone bothered about R Lerners lack of communication when we were riding high a few years back ?
Yes after the inital PR and talk of IMG coming in it all went very quiet and MON spent large sums of cash with a transfer policy that was short term in the extreme.
I wanted to know what the future plans where ,how we could compete towards the top 4 and plans for Stadium expansion.At first we had the General who gave us some snippets of info but since then it has been ridiculous.
Where we happy when we splashed cash on Bent but even that turned into a nonsense when we then sold his supply line !!
The Manager both TSM and PL have been wheeled out as the public face taking all the abuse for a board who seemingly work from day to day.Fans and people like Sir GT have spoken about the issues and the club and been ignored ,well currently that ignorance is going to send us down.
I'm not a huge fan of Lambert based on our most recent performances but to let him publicly take the flack all the time is wrong.If your broke Randy tell us , if there is a plan tell us !
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Just a thought, was anyone bothered about R Lerners lack of communication when we were riding high a few years back ?
I was.
Yes, remember you being thus Dave. I probably wasn't but then I thought Reo-Coker was a good signing so what do I know. I was more bothered by the toadying to the General and the attacks that rained down on anyone who dared to contradict his 'I'd love to be in the trenches with you when the shit starts flying' mentality which just never rang true to me. He always bore the hallmarks for me of a johnny come lately who wouldn't be around long-term like we all are, have been and will be....unfortunately it sometimes feels right now!
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To be fair, back then we could see what the plan was, so it didn't matter as much that Randy never spoke.
Back then we were winning, so it didn't matter. It wouldn't matter now, if we were winning. When you're winning nothing else matters.
Yup. That's about the size of it. I can just about remember it too!
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Just a thought, was anyone bothered about R Lerners lack of communication when we were riding high a few years back ?
Yes, I was - his treatment of us PAYING CUSTOMERS is a disgrace. I won't be listening come season-ticket renewal next season.
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We were also fed the line that the club would be professionally and that they liked to do business privately rather than through the press.
I admit that won me over.
It was also passed around about his Family's tragedy and the way the press had treated them, so I guess there was also an amount of understanding.
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Also, at the time he was being compared to the Yanks over at Anfield, and we all thought we had the better deal...
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There's a song that appears to be summing up the Lerner custodianship of our club at the moment. Ironically, it peaked in the UK singles chart during the same month that Villa were last relegated.
Obviously, when "Proud History - Bright Future" was trotted out, we all had a definition of "bright" that was different to that of Mr Lerner.
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Anyone remember the "we're here through thick and thin" line the General used to use a lot?
First bit of thin, and they're nowhere to be seen. General off forum, Randy not bothering going to the matches (mind you, who can blame him). They're effectively an absentee board.
I understand priorities change, situations change, and so on, but the abrupt, "fuck you" nature of their disengagement is not just disappointing in itself, it is made worse because it makes all the good things they previously did look like cynical marketing which they dropped as soon as they decided they couldn't be arsed any more.
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Anyone remember the "we're here through thick and thin" line the General used to use a lot?
First bit of thin, and they're nowhere to be seen. General off forum, Randy not bothering going to the matches (mind you, who can blame him). They're effectively an absentee board.
I understand priorities change, situations change, and so on, but the abrupt, "fuck you" nature of their disengagement is not just disappointing in itself, it is made worse because it makes all the good things they previously did look like cynical marketing which they dropped as soon as they decided they couldn't be arsed any more.
Spot on.
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Anyone remember the "we're here through thick and thin" line the General used to use a lot?
First bit of thin, and they're nowhere to be seen. General off forum, Randy not bothering going to the matches (mind you, who can blame him). They're effectively an absentee board.
I understand priorities change, situations change, and so on, but the abrupt, "fuck you" nature of their disengagement is not just disappointing in itself, it is made worse because it makes all the good things they previously did look like cynical marketing which they dropped as soon as they decided they couldn't be arsed any more.
You do get the occasional messages via Pelty and the subliminal ones that pop up for a few seconds here and there.
Seriously, I can't believe the General is still on the board but his name is in the programme as such.
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Also, at the time he was being compared to the Yanks over at Anfield, and we all thought we had the better deal...
I remember the two yanks being interviewed and they pulled out a big wedge of notes, when asked their strategy with Liverpool. Class. It looks like Randy had the same idea, just more subtle.
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Anyone remember the "we're here through thick and thin" line the General used to use a lot?
First bit of thin, and they're nowhere to be seen. General off forum, Randy not bothering going to the matches (mind you, who can blame him). They're effectively an absentee board.
I understand priorities change, situations change, and so on, but the abrupt, "fuck you" nature of their disengagement is not just disappointing in itself, it is made worse because it makes all the good things they previously did look like cynical marketing which they dropped as soon as they decided they couldn't be arsed any more.
You do get the occasional messages via Pelty and the subliminal ones that pop up for a few seconds here and there.
Seriously, I can't believe the General is still on the board but his name is in the programme as such.
He's still lurking on here, he was on yesterday according to the site stats (The General I mean, not sure about Pelty)
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Anyone remember the "we're here through thick and thin" line the General used to use a lot?
First bit of thin, and they're nowhere to be seen. General off forum, Randy not bothering going to the matches (mind you, who can blame him). They're effectively an absentee board.
I understand priorities change, situations change, and so on, but the abrupt, "fuck you" nature of their disengagement is not just disappointing in itself, it is made worse because it makes all the good things they previously did look like cynical marketing which they dropped as soon as they decided they couldn't be arsed any more.
You do get the occasional messages via Pelty and the subliminal ones that pop up for a few seconds here and there.
Seriously, I can't believe the General is still on the board but his name is in the programme as such.
Agree, a board member of a Company should be involved in the running of it surely? The Board at Villa Park is a joke.
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Anyone remember the "we're here through thick and thin" line the General used to use a lot?
First bit of thin, and they're nowhere to be seen. General off forum, Randy not bothering going to the matches (mind you, who can blame him). They're effectively an absentee board.
I understand priorities change, situations change, and so on, but the abrupt, "fuck you" nature of their disengagement is not just disappointing in itself, it is made worse because it makes all the good things they previously did look like cynical marketing which they dropped as soon as they decided they couldn't be arsed any more.
The killer for me was Krulak taking the "Proud History, Bright Future" bollocks and using it at his US college. That summed up perfectly what a load of cynical marketing bollocks we all bought into.
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Anyone remember the "we're here through thick and thin" line the General used to use a lot?
First bit of thin, and they're nowhere to be seen. General off forum, Randy not bothering going to the matches (mind you, who can blame him). They're effectively an absentee board.
I understand priorities change, situations change, and so on, but the abrupt, "fuck you" nature of their disengagement is not just disappointing in itself, it is made worse because it makes all the good things they previously did look like cynical marketing which they dropped as soon as they decided they couldn't be arsed any more.
You do get the occasional messages via Pelty and the subliminal ones that pop up for a few seconds here and there.
Seriously, I can't believe the General is still on the board but his name is in the programme as such.
He's still lurking on here, he was on yesterday according to the site stats (The General I mean, not sure about Pelty)
Probably laughing his head off and thinking 'fucking saps.'
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Good to know they know the Natives are restless ....custodian my ass Randy
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Can anyone confirm is this letter / editorial in TONIGHT'S evening mail ?
Is it definitely being published ??
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http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/birmingham-mail-comment-aston-villa-1238760
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If the General does lurk on here, maybe he'd like to man up and post, explianing exactly what the fuck is going on.
I can only assume he won't, as in the current climate he wouldn't receive the wave after wave of arselicking that he enjoyed last time he was on here.
The silence is deafening.
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If you recall he only sanctioned the Benteke and Westwood signings on the 31st August, 2012. That happened off the back of the Everton defeat. Just think if either of those two players hadn't signed! Benteke in particular signed at something like 10.30pm and that transfer was very on-off.
Hopefully, after the Bradford humiliation he'll release some transfer funds, but I'm not holding my breath!
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What's so frustating virtually more than anything is the lack of communication from the club. I mean fucking hell, is there a poorer club in the Premier League for PR? it's horrendous it really is.
There was a lot of criticism about the General, but at least there was something coming out of B6, even if bull sh*t a lot of the time.
Now there is nothing the fans can respond to, and perhaps that's the problem, they don't want to have any dialogue with supporters.
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What's so frustating virtually more than anything is the lack of communication from the club. I mean fucking hell, is there a poorer club in the Premier League for PR? it's horrendous it really is.
There was a lot of criticism about the General, but at least there was something coming out of B6, even if bull sh*t a lot of the time.
Now there is nothing the fans can respond to, and perhaps that's the problem, they don't want to have any dialogue with supporters.
Even if he hadn't slunk off like a whipped dog, how long do you think he'd last now with everybody slagging off Lerner?
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Krulak can go fuck himself aswell. The guy is another in the list of Randy yes men who know nothing about running a football club.
If he was to post we'd get some shite anecdote about the US Marine Corps and how we're all shitting ourselves in the trenches whilst brave Paul and Randy are taking the bullets like real men.
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You'd think his pride would goad him into at least responding once.
I feel like he's sprayed Agent Orange into my eyes.
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Out of interest, does anyone know if FSG communicate with the Liverpool fanbase or The Glaziers with ManUre fans ??
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Out of interest, does anyone know if FSG communicate with the Liverpool fanbase or The Glaziers with ManUre fans ??
The Glaziers always look like sales reps for the 'Lucky Charms' cereal.
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Anyone remember the "we're here through thick and thin" line the General used to use a lot?
First bit of thin, and they're nowhere to be seen. General off forum, Randy not bothering going to the matches (mind you, who can blame him). They're effectively an absentee board.
I understand priorities change, situations change, and so on, but the abrupt, "fuck you" nature of their disengagement is not just disappointing in itself, it is made worse because it makes all the good things they previously did look like cynical marketing which they dropped as soon as they decided they couldn't be arsed any more.
You do get the occasional messages via Pelty and the subliminal ones that pop up for a few seconds here and there.
Seriously, I can't believe the General is still on the board but his name is in the programme as such.
He's still lurking on here, he was on yesterday according to the site stats (The General I mean, not sure about Pelty)
He wasn't on here yesterday.
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He won't be goaded into responding because he doesn't give a FUCK about Aston Villa, he's not a fan, this was just another failed investment. Guys like Faulkner, Krulak, they aren't going to be worrying themselves over our club.
He used this site like a slick Salesman and when we started to see through the sales pitch he wen't scurrying off to drop his lines on another bunch of unsuspecting planks. This place is like therapy to us, it helps to talk about it lol.
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What's so frustating virtually more than anything is the lack of communication from the club. I mean fucking hell, is there a poorer club in the Premier League for PR? it's horrendous it really is.
There was a lot of criticism about the General, but at least there was something coming out of B6, even if bull sh*t a lot of the time.
Now there is nothing the fans can respond to, and perhaps that's the problem, they don't want to have any dialogue with supporters.
Not sure does people in here understand that people like Lerner and Faulker doesn't think like we fans do, they most probably only sees everything by the numbers and potential risk-reward percentage, and they don't care what fans say or think.
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Out of interest, does anyone know if FSG communicate with the Liverpool fanbase or The Glaziers with ManUre fans ??
John Henry is on Twitter and posts now and again I believe
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If things don't change I will be voting with my feet. Committed to this season with an ST but that's up for review now whether we stay up or go down is irrelevant .
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What's so frustating virtually more than anything is the lack of communication from the club. I mean fucking hell, is there a poorer club in the Premier League for PR? it's horrendous it really is.
There was a lot of criticism about the General, but at least there was something coming out of B6, even if bull sh*t a lot of the time.
Now there is nothing the fans can respond to, and perhaps that's the problem, they don't want to have any dialogue with supporters.
Not sure does people in here understand that people like Lerner and Faulker doesn't think like we fans do, they most probably only sees everything by the numbers and potential risk-reward percentage, and they don't care what fans say or think.
But Lerner has a tattoo!
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What's so frustating virtually more than anything is the lack of communication from the club. I mean fucking hell, is there a poorer club in the Premier League for PR? it's horrendous it really is.
There was a lot of criticism about the General, but at least there was something coming out of B6, even if bull sh*t a lot of the time.
Now there is nothing the fans can respond to, and perhaps that's the problem, they don't want to have any dialogue with supporters.
Not sure does people in here understand that people like Lerner and Faulker doesn't think like we fans do, they most probably only sees everything by the numbers and potential risk-reward percentage, and they don't care what fans say or think.
But Lerner has a tattoo!
Yeah, on his hands. LEFT and RIGHT.
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This situation is getting beyond ridiculous now.
Agreed. I think the entire body of supporter opinion has now turned.
In what way? That's not a flippant question, more of a turned against who and what?
Until very recently many would defend Randy and give him the benefit of the doubt. Even those of us (speaking for myself of course) who have been critical of him and Faulkner over the past couple of years secretly harboured the hope that he'd pull something out of the hat one more time. That something big would happen in January to halt the slide.
The defeat to Bradford and the realisation that we are staring down the barrel of a gun in the league with no transfer talk whatsoever is slowly killing that hope.
Randy has squandered all the goodwill. Even if we do find the cash for a loan or two, even if we manage to stay up, it will be very hard for any of us to ever trust them again. After they sacked McLeish they promised us things would change. Yet here we are, on a lower points tally than last year with the clock ticking in the window after suffering some of the worst defeats in our history and there is no communication.
Their credibility is shot.
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I don’t think that Lerner and Faulkner don’t care, I think the situation has become more serious than that. They don’t know what to do- and neither do we.
The “back him or sack him” rhymes, but that is about it. Who do we buy? Who would come? What increased wage liability would that represent if we went down? What experience does Lambert, or anyone at the club, have in buying to stave off PL relegation? Sack him for whom? There is no obvious alternative.
I fear we have passed the point of no return.
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This situation is getting beyond ridiculous now.
Agreed. I think the entire body of supporter opinion has now turned.
In what way? That's not a flippant question, more of a turned against who and what?
Until very recently many would defend Randy and give him the benefit of the doubt. Even those of us (speaking for myself of course) who have been critical of him and Faulkner over the past couple of years secretly harboured the hope that he'd pull something out of the hat one more time. That something big would happen in January to halt the slide.
The defeat to Bradford and the realisation that we are staring down the barrel of a gun in the league with no transfer talk whatsoever is slowly killing that hope.
Randy has squandered all the goodwill. Even if we do find the cash for a loan or two, even if we manage to stay up, it will be very hard for any of us to ever trust them again. After they sacked McLeish they promised us things would change. Yet here we are, on a lower points tally than last year with the clock ticking in the window after suffering some of the worst defeats in our history and there is no communication.
Their credibility is shot.
I agree with this.
At the end of last season we were promised 'change', and the appointment of PL seemed like a great start. The singings started rolling in and, even if they were a little underwhelming, it was still a good start.
Now we're flailing massively - the team NEEDS strengthening - with the only light being that we'll survive by the skin of our teeth, but with 15 goals conceded in 3 games then it doesn't look like we'll be ending like we did last year.
We need funding, even if it's for loans, to help us to the end of the season.
But then you've got to look at who would actually want to come to Villa. Yes, we know we're one of the biggest in the country, but we need experience. Premier League experience. Who wants to come to a team who have little hope of survival?
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We have a relegation six pointer next week against a team who look like they will have four new players by then. I won't pretend to know too much about those players but it will hardly make them weaker will it? Fans always demand new signings when things are going wrong but anyone can see we desperately need two or three new faces.
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Has anybody phoned Nicola Keye?
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This situation is getting beyond ridiculous now.
Agreed. I think the entire body of supporter opinion has now turned.
In what way? That's not a flippant question, more of a turned against who and what?
Until very recently many would defend Randy and give him the benefit of the doubt. Even those of us (speaking for myself of course) who have been critical of him and Faulkner over the past couple of years secretly harboured the hope that he'd pull something out of the hat one more time. That something big would happen in January to halt the slide.
The defeat to Bradford and the realisation that we are staring down the barrel of a gun in the league with no transfer talk whatsoever is slowly killing that hope.
Randy has squandered all the goodwill. Even if we do find the cash for a loan or two, even if we manage to stay up, it will be very hard for any of us to ever trust them again. After they sacked McLeish they promised us things would change. Yet here we are, on a lower points tally than last year with the clock ticking in the window after suffering some of the worst defeats in our history and there is no communication.
Their credibility is shot.
But then you've got to look at who would actually want to come to Villa. Yes, we know we're one of the biggest in the country, but we need experience. Premier League experience. Who wants to come to a team who have little hope of survival?
It might be easier to get players in on loan in our current situation than sign them. If they were only signed on loan until the end of the season then that negates any kind of risk on their part. Yes they would be playing in a struggling team, but they would be getting regular Premier League football and the chance to boost their stock if we stay up. As others have pointed out, we are not a million miles away from having a competitive side, which makes the lack of activity even more galling.
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I just wondered reading these posts how many people think we are better or worse off now than with Doug???
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After beating Norwich and Liverpool the OS published a piece from Faulkner saying how great PL was and how we were building towards a sustainable future. From the moment that article went was published , things have turned into complete and utter shit. I believe they weren't planning for transfers because we had a small run of average form they didnt think we needed any as we had miraculously become the new Ajax overnight which was naive given the age and experience of the squad,it was always going to be more likely up and down. I honestly think they're clinging to the hope that we are going to miraculously improve again with this same team . Everybody can see what is needed and I still believe it is mainly down to Lambert who is to stubborn to admit he is wrong. I expect to see a couple of signings buy they will be kids from the lower leagues Naive is not the word
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I just wondered reading these posts how many people think we are better or worse off now than with Doug???
Most will say we are better off now but I am not too sure. I don't think relegation in 2006 would have been as bad as relegation would be this year what with the new TV deal coming into force in 2013/14. The game has changed a lot since 2006 and seems to have become more competitive with the growth of clubs like Swansea and the Championship even seems to have a lot of well run clubs who compete very hard for their shot at the Premier League. On balance, it is probably harder to get out of it now than it was back then.
I'm not sure either which side would be better prepared for a successful season in the Championship, the current lot or the 2006 side which included seasoned players I could see doing well in the Championship. Our guys often look over pampered and lacking any stomach for a battle.
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After beating Norwich and Liverpool the OS published a piece from Faulkner saying how great PL was and how we were building towards a sustainable future. From the moment that article went was published , things have turned into complete and utter shit. I believe they weren't planning for transfers because we had a small run of average form they didnt think we needed any as we had miraculously become the new Ajax overnight which was naive given the age and experience of the squad,it was always going to be more likely up and down. I honestly think they're clinging to the hope that we are going to miraculously improve again with this same team . Everybody can see what is needed and I still believe it is mainly down to Lambert who is to stubborn to admit he is wrong. I expect to see a couple of signings buy they will be kids from the lower leagues Naive is not the word
Yup when we had 2 good results they couldn't wait to start the positive PR.Easier to get blood from a stone than a comment from them now
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he isnt bothered about us . he thought it was a easy money tree so he can feather his nest . well i for one wont be going down the shrine until he either puts money into the coffers or sacks lamberk and we know the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth . its gone on long enough now we need answers not questions
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After beating Norwich and Liverpool the OS published a piece from Faulkner saying how great PL was and how we were building towards a sustainable future. From the moment that article went was published , things have turned into complete and utter shit. I believe they weren't planning for transfers because we had a small run of average form they didnt think we needed any as we had miraculously become the new Ajax overnight which was naive given the age and experience of the squad,it was always going to be more likely up and down. I honestly think they're clinging to the hope that we are going to miraculously improve again with this same team . Everybody can see what is needed and I still believe it is mainly down to Lambert who is to stubborn to admit he is wrong. I expect to see a couple of signings buy they will be kids from the lower leagues Naive is not the word
Yup when we had 2 good results they couldn't wait to start the positive PR.Easier to get blood from a stone than a comment from them now
Stubborn to admit he is wrong and a tacticallly shit and incredible uninspiring manager.
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I just wondered reading these posts how many people think we are better or worse off now than with Doug???
There is a thread on that very subject and I think I wrote that it was a choice between tweedledumb and tweedledumber. Could have said ConLibs or NewLabs: either way you get the shaft. The full girth, and without lube. Hurting you in the end.
Back to the Meaning Evil editorial, I have to say it is very well written.
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The absentee board argument is a fair one isn't it. Leading to us being run by a bloke who used to take corporate clients out on the piss for a credit card firm.
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Has anybody phoned Nicola Keye?
What's the number again?
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If you'll allow me, i'd like to link to an article I've just had published. I took a couple of days' reflection on the Bradford game before I wrote it and could have posted it on a number of threads, but I think here works best - it follows on quite well from what the Mail have written. I won't reproduce it myself as i'd like people to visit the actual page, but I won't stop others from doing so. I'm not bothered by people complaining about posting links, as it's the content I feel is important:
http://pickourteam.com/premierleague/news/24-01-2013/dramatic-villa-downfall-has-fans-hurting/813595
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If you'll allow me, i'd like to link to an article I've just had published. I took a couple of days' reflection on the Bradford game before I wrote it and could have posted it on a number of threads, but I think here works best - it follows on quite well from what the Mail have written. I won't reproduce it myself as i'd like people to visit the actual page, but I won't stop others from doing so. I'm not bothered by people complaining about posting links, as it's the content I feel is important:
http://pickourteam.com/premierleague/news/24-01-2013/dramatic-villa-downfall-has-fans-hurting/813595
Good article Chris. Whatever happens, however bad it gets, at least we'll be able to tell our grandkids we suffered for the cause.
Unless, Villa has gone out of business by then.
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If you'll allow me, i'd like to link to an article I've just had published. I took a couple of days' reflection on the Bradford game before I wrote it and could have posted it on a number of threads, but I think here works best - it follows on quite well from what the Mail have written. I won't reproduce it myself as i'd like people to visit the actual page, but I won't stop others from doing so. I'm not bothered by people complaining about posting links, as it's the content I feel is important:
http://pickourteam.com/premierleague/news/24-01-2013/dramatic-villa-downfall-has-fans-hurting/813595
Excellent, Chris. I found it quite comforting in a cathartic way. Is there any way you can get this under the nose of anyone at the club e,g Faulkner or Lambert?
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Good article. Articulates what many of us feel.
The Evening Page piece is well-worded, too.
Not that ultimately either will make any difference with the dumb yank and his MBNA lickspittle.
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I don’t think that Lerner and Faulkner don’t care, I think the situation has become more serious than that. They don’t know what to do- and neither do we.
The “back him or sack him” rhymes, but that is about it. Who do we buy? Who would come? What increased wage liability would that represent if we went down? What experience does Lambert, or anyone at the club, have in buying to stave off PL relegation? Sack him for whom? There is no obvious alternative.
I fear we have passed the point of no return.
I think the point of no return is 31-01-2013. But your questions are certainly apposite.
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If you'll allow me, i'd like to link to an article I've just had published. I took a couple of days' reflection on the Bradford game before I wrote it and could have posted it on a number of threads, but I think here works best - it follows on quite well from what the Mail have written. I won't reproduce it myself as i'd like people to visit the actual page, but I won't stop others from doing so. I'm not bothered by people complaining about posting links, as it's the content I feel is important:
http://pickourteam.com/premierleague/news/24-01-2013/dramatic-villa-downfall-has-fans-hurting/813595
Very passionately and articulately written, Chris. Your approach talks to the soul, which is unusual in the football business these days.
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he isnt bothered about us . he thought it was a easy money tree so he can feather his nest . well i for one wont be going down the shrine until he either puts money into the coffers or sacks lamberk and we know the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth . its gone on long enough now we need answers not questions
Puts money in or sacks Lambert? Do you think a new manager will make much difference with no budget.
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he isnt bothered about us . he thought it was a easy money tree so he can feather his nest . well i for one wont be going down the shrine until he either puts money into the coffers or sacks lamberk and we know the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth . its gone on long enough now we need answers not questions
Puts money in or sacks Lambert? Do you think a new manager will make much difference with no budget.
Some managers can. It is possible to get a new manager bump even with a naff team.
Of course things could also get worse, see Wolves last year.
But it wont happen, Lambert is going nowhere unless he resigns.
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i'd put money on GT keeping us up for starters. And he's not the only one, but you don't need to a managerial great to stop a team conceding from set-pieces and corners every game or indeed knowing that taking the entire midfield off isn't a good idea
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The set piece thing is just weird. I read the other day we conceded something like 25 during Houllier's season, 27 last season and 15 already this season. And this year we have a completely new defense.
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The set piece thing is just weird. I read the other day we conceded something like 25 during Houllier's season, 27 last season and 15 already this season. And this year we have a completely new defense.
Maybe it's due to consitently poor defensive coaching post mon ?
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As I have said in these pages several times since this crisis started to blow up in the autumn, there will be no money made available and none spent to try to save our Premiership status. The attitude towards Lambert by Lerner and Faulkner is precisely the same as it was to his predecessor, "live within your means or die within your means". No money is going to be forthcoming because for all the flannel and American style PR a decision has been made that if we are relegated, sobeit. If we struggle in the Championship sobeit. If we are relegated from the Championship sobeit. Lerner has spoken.
Fundamentally in Lerner, Faulkner and Lambert we have three people who are not very good at what they are expected to do for the money they get.
Lerner inherited his money. Faulkner got his position for being like Mr Yateman in Dad's Army and Lambert has been put to the test in the Premiership and found seriously wanting.
These three have meetings and nothing proactive or incisive is ever agreed because two of them are chronic introverts and the third is a yes-man.
As was pointed out in an earlier post of mine when I put forward the same opinion of the people in power at Villa Park Martin O'Neill thrived in the power vacuum which was created by an absentee, totally naive owner and his acolyte.
Sorry lads but we have to accept that we are going down and will not come back up until we have an owner who wants to be an owner, a chief executive who can make competent business decisions off his own bat and stand by them and a manager who can reinvent himself in two weeks into a flexible, communicative, diplomatic, enthusiastic, pragmatic, well informed, open minded extrovert or stand aside for somebody who has those qualities.
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Brian Green speaketh the truth.
Without blowing smoke up his catflaps, this man has been a Villa supporter since Adam was a lad, if he says it's shit (and boy has he seen some shit down there in his time) Then it MUST be shit.
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Line of the year.
' Faulkner got his position for being like Mr Yateman in Dad's Army and Lambert has been put to the test in the Premiership and found seriously wanting.'
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I am not going to quote his whole post, but Mr.Green's summary above is excellent and, I believe, very, very accurate.
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Krulak can go fuck himself aswell. The guy is another in the list of Randy yes men who know nothing about running a football club.
If he was to post we'd get some shite anecdote about the US Marine Corps and how we're all shitting ourselves in the trenches whilst brave Paul and Randy are taking the bullets like real men.
Imagine Mcleish If he had money to spend . Remember that ?
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Krulak can go fuck himself aswell. The guy is another in the list of Randy yes men who know nothing about running a football club.
If he was to post we'd get some shite anecdote about the US Marine Corps and how we're all shitting ourselves in the trenches whilst brave Paul and Randy are taking the bullets like real men.
Imagine Mcleish If he had money to spend . Remember that ?
'We'll finish 4th....er...I mean 5th, my finger slipped'
'See me at the game and try saying that to my face.'
'Randy has a tattoo of the Villa crest, how many of you supporters can say THAT?'
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i'd put money on GT keeping us up for starters. And he's not the only one, but you don't need to a managerial great to stop a team conceding from set-pieces and corners every game or indeed knowing that taking the entire midfield off isn't a good idea
Lambert gets well paid , his right hand men and coaches get well paid , they spend hours at BH with the players handsomely paid . We , the fans and the whole country know we have been for 3 years absolutely crap defending set pieces.
I am amazed this is still going on . What the f**k are we doing at the club.
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An open message to Randy Lerner from Heroes and Villains (well, me in any case):
Remember this quote Lerner?
"There have been plenty of custodians of Aston Villa since 1874 and if I can’t make it work, I will do what the others did, move on and let someone else try"
Well, it isn't working, and you've turned our club into the laughing stock of football. You've proved with the Browns that you can't run a successful sports club, so it's about time you cut your losses and sold up. People are starting to regard you in the same way they do the Venky's, so while you still have a shred of credibility left, it'd be better if you admitted defeat and concentrated on running your New York restaurant. And take that idiot Faulkner with you.
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Lerner has a New York restaurant???
How many times has he gone into the kitchen and plunged his hand into the deep-fat fryer?
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Any column in the Evening Mail titled "Supporters have say on Facebook and Twitter" is always worth a read. My favourite has to be this effort from Deano Richard Gleiwitz:
"I'd bring back in Hutton and Warnock, take out Clark and Bennett. Play Hutton at the back with Vlaar and Warnock at left-back. Then I'd tell Bennett and Clark to find their P45s on my table in the morning along with Ireland, N'Zog, Gabby, Delph..."
Not sure about Hutton at CB and also not sure that you can just hand out P45s willy nilly, but I like the cut of Deano's jib and as far as I'm concerned, the job is his. Wonder when he can move his table in?
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Lerner has a New York restaurant???
He appointed Sweeney Todd as the head chef, not realising the recommendation from Gordon Ramsey was sarcastic. He keeps the letter in a safe.
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Lerner has a New York restaurant???
How many times has he gone into the kitchen and plunged his hand into the deep-fat fryer?
This place in The Hamptons:
http://www.meetinghouseamagansett.com/dinner-menu/
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Lerner has a New York restaurant???
How many times has he gone into the kitchen and plunged his hand into the deep-fat fryer?
This place in The Hamptons:
http://www.meetinghouseamagansett.com/dinner-menu/
The Hamptons?
I've always saw Lerner as a bit of a Hampton.
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"Compelling play and results that instil a sense of confidence that Villa is on the right track have been plainly absent." Randy Lerner (14.05.2012)
They still are, Randy, in fact it's worse! What are you going to do about it now?
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I was in the National Portrait Gallery on Monday and there is a Lerner Wing in there. I don't reckon that will have come cheaply.
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http://www.meetinghouseamagansett.com/dinner-menu/
Interesting menu
STARTERS - Optimism Souffle with an ambitious foam.
MAIN COURSE - braised skillet of non-infrastructure, marinated in an incompetent juss.
DESSERT - Upside down football club cake
Selection of cheesy marketing quotes and Championship arse biscuits
Coffee with no discernible aroma as there is no need to wake up and smell it.
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The main course isn't goose?!
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http://www.meetinghouseamagansett.com/dinner-menu/
Interesting menu
STARTERS - Optimism Souffle with an ambitious foam.
MAIN COURSE - braised skillet of non-infrastructure, marinated in an incompetent juss.
DESSERT - Upside down football club cake
Selection of cheesy marketing quotes and Championship arse biscuits
Coffee with no discernible aroma as there is no need to wake up and smell it.
With ginger fool for dessert, and a rather insipid 43 year old Scotch to help things go down.
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What about a Curry dish? A Lerner Burner.
Exotic flavour at first gives way to rather disappointing shelf of mutton medallions,
Poonah Naan, bland mountain bread filled with an excrement of your choice.
Randy Lager, brightly coloured and an unrefreshingly flat finish.
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Starter...cooked by our Northern Irish chef who was in post when the current owner bought the restaurant. Trained under a 2 Michelin star eccentric, whose ability he likes to believe he has. Raved about by fawning critics, but has tendency to pay over the odds for mediocre ingredients, many of which are left unused, and the resulting dishes flatter to deceive.
Mains...created by our hand-picked French chef, who we plucked from semi-retirement in the land of his birth. Despite waxing lyrical about his previous gastronomic successes, he started to show some touches of the old genius. Recently sought the owner's assistance in making a big acquisition that should bring years of pleasure to our customers. Please do not be alarmed if you see him clutching his chest.
Dessert...Our pastry chef, despite originating from the land of the deep-fried Mars bar, comes highly recommended. Our owner has a letter from a leading proponent in the art of dourness, vouching for the fact that he did, indeed, know him in his younger days. We were delighted when we managed to lure him from a neighbouring failing restaurant. Here he'd overseen them going from a coveted award to a closing down in a little over three months. Still their demise delighted all of our customers. His cuisine is somewhat dull and predictable, but, as he will willingly tell you, if you haven't got the ability, there is no point trying to compete with the Michelin started gastronomic geniuses. Or McDonald’s.
Drinks - our recently appointed sommelier has taken only a few weeks to ensure that the promised champagne of February has turned flat. He has started an overhaul of our cellar, introducing some cheap plonk from down-at-heel Chateau, and a range of home produced wines that need more time in the barrel maturing - or tipping away - and a Belgium beer that flatters to deceive. What we do promise, is that whatever you order, it will leave a bitter aftertaste.
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Well at least this place gets funnier the shitter Villa get.
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It would be interesting to see what would happens if Man City/United/Liverpool never gone for Barry, Milner, Young, and Downing and MON stayed and no moscow fiasco. Think we will be lot closer, but since Man City spend the money and MON left he seem to lose heart.
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Brian Green speaketh the truth.
Without blowing smoke up his catflaps, this man has been a Villa supporter since Adam was a lad, if he says it's shit (and boy has he seen some shit down there in his time) Then it MUST be shit.
If posters are embarrassed at recent events i can assure them there is nothing more embarrassing than watching Villa take on the might of the third division, they could well find out for themselves if this owner hangs around for a couple of years.
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Brian Green speaketh the truth.
Without blowing smoke up his catflaps, this man has been a Villa supporter since Adam was a lad, if he says it's shit (and boy has he seen some shit down there in his time) Then it MUST be shit.
If posters are embarrassed at recent events i can assure them there is nothing more embarrassing than watching Villa take on the might of the third division, they could well find out for themselves if this owner hangs around for a couple of years.
If you've just come to the latest page, Brian's article last page is worth going back to.
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How did it all come to this? What an extremely sad state of affairs...our club is in free fall and no one in charge appears to give a tinker's cuss. Unbelievable.
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Well at least this place gets funnier the shitter Villa get.
if you dont laugh you cry .......
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Starter...cooked by our Northern Irish chef who was in post when the current owner bought the restaurant. Trained under a 2 Michelin star eccentric, whose ability he likes to believe he has. Raved about by fawning critics, but has tendency to pay over the odds for mediocre ingredients, many of which are left unused, and the resulting dishes flatter to deceive.
Mains...created by our hand-picked French chef, who we plucked from semi-retirement in the land of his birth. Despite waxing lyrical about his previous gastronomic successes, he started to show some touches of the old genius. Recently sought the owner's assistance in making a big acquisition that should bring years of pleasure to our customers. Please do not be alarmed if you see him clutching his chest.
Dessert...Our pastry chef, despite originating from the land of the deep-fried Mars bar, comes highly recommended. Our owner has a letter from a leading proponent in the art of dourness, vouching for the fact that he did, indeed, know him in his younger days. We were delighted when we managed to lure him from a neighbouring failing restaurant. Here he'd overseen them going from a coveted award to a closing down in a little over three months. Still their demise delighted all of our customers. His cuisine is somewhat dull and predictable, but, as he will willingly tell you, if you haven't got the ability, there is no point trying to compete with the Michelin started gastronomic geniuses. Or McDonald’s.
Drinks - our recently appointed sommelier has taken only a few weeks to ensure that the promised champagne of February has turned flat. He has started an overhaul of our cellar, introducing some cheap plonk from down-at-heel Chateau, and a range of home produced wines that need more time in the barrel maturing - or tipping away - and a Belgium beer that flatters to deceive. What we do promise, is that whatever you order, it will leave a bitter aftertaste.
Very good Topdeck.