Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine

Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: PaulWinch again on October 27, 2012, 02:58:40 PM

Title: Tactics
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 27, 2012, 02:58:40 PM
On the evidence of today and recent weeks it must surely be clear to Lambert that 4-4-2 does not and will never work. We consistently get dominated in the midfield and are getting worse by the week unfortunately. We need to shift to having some form of 5 in the midfield, whether that's 2 sitting and 3 in front or something else we do need a change. It also doesn't help that we don't even pick our best players. Delph and Albrighton shouldn't be in any midfield combination.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: eastie on October 27, 2012, 03:20:03 PM
Many things wrong and today was very poor.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Ad@m on October 27, 2012, 03:53:26 PM
On the evidence of today and recent weeks it must surely be clear to Lambert that 4-4-2 does not and will never work. We consistently get dominated in the midfield and are getting worse by the week unfortunately. We need to shift to having some form of 5 in the midfield, whether that's 2 sitting and 3 in front or something else we do need a change. It also doesn't help that we don't even pick our best players. Delph and Albrighton shouldn't be in any midfield combination.

Agreed.

It's quite strange though that even with 4 central midfielders most of the time the back four never has anyone to pass to resorting instead to eventually lumping it forward to Benteke's head.

The insistence with 2 up front has to stop though.  As does the insistence on playing strikers in midfield.  Lambert's substitutions today were baffling.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Shrek on October 27, 2012, 04:04:08 PM
It's not that 442 doesn't work it's the players in the system aren't working.

We need to get Weimann in the starting 11, he has the energy hunger and threat on goal we need.

Today when Norwich had the ball, Gabby and Benteke were just standing on the half way line, we need someone like Weimann who will drop back in and help out when we don't have possession.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: eastie on October 27, 2012, 04:06:10 PM
It's not that 442 doesn't work it's the players in the system aren't working.

We need to get Weimann in the starting 11, he has the energy hunger and threat on goal we need.

Weimann and benteke would be my choice as I said In the pre match thread- both provide movement and options.

Midfield is shockingly bad though.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Tony on October 27, 2012, 04:08:16 PM
I don't think 4-4-2 is the problem, it's not marking, not closing down and not tackling that are the problems, it doesn't really matter what formation you play, if you won't mark, tackle and close down opponents you're going to struggle.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Monty on October 27, 2012, 04:19:53 PM
'Twas ever thus. Trying to accommodate the two forwards throws up so many unnecessary problems. For instance, when trying to play the ball out of defence we're clearly undermanned in midfield and face two options: boot aimlessly or risk losing the ball in a very dangerous situation. When we have the ball in midfield the players clearly lack options and movement around them, and there are two guys hanging around impotently on their 18-yard line miles away from the play - what do we do? Well, usually get pressured backwards and thump it vaguely to a big man. It's like last season, no change, because this problem won't go away while we persist with this two forwards nonsense.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: nigel on October 27, 2012, 04:23:57 PM
It's not that 442 doesn't work it's the players in the system aren't working.

We need to get Weimann in the starting 11, he has the energy hunger and threat on goal we need.

Weimann and benteke would be my choice as I said In the pre match thread- both provide movement and options.

Midfield is shockingly bad though.
[/quote

Agree.
I've said for a while that we need a player in the Essien mold
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 27, 2012, 04:39:22 PM
I think I'd play a midfield/attack of something like -


                                       ---------El-Ahmadi-----------Herd/Westwood----------------

                    -N'Zogbia--------------------------Ireland-------------------------Weimann
                       
                                                      --------Bent/Benteke

Allowing Ireland to drop back in to help the midfield and Weimann to join the striker. It would prevent us being out numbered and allow us to retain possession.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: eastie on October 27, 2012, 04:45:29 PM
I think I'd play a midfield/attack of something like -


                                       ---------El-Ahmadi-----------Herd/Westwood----------------

                    -N'Zogbia--------------------------Ireland-------------------------Weimann
                       
                                                      --------Bent/Benteke

Allowing Ireland to drop back in to help the midfield and Weimann to join the striker. It would prevent us being out numbered and allow us to retain possession.

Would be happy to see that given a go, with westwood and benteke starting rather than herd or bent.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Lambert and Payne on October 27, 2012, 04:53:19 PM
Albrighton was fucking awful, I'd rather give Gabby a turn on the wing, we look awful, absolutely no width to the side
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Mister E on October 27, 2012, 05:01:43 PM
Well, I thought Herd was outstanding today.
And Delph demonstrated his fallibility.
So it'd be this for me:
                                   Guzan
          Lowton    Vlaar      Dunne / Baker  Bennett
                          Herd                Clark
                                        KEA
                     Holman                  Weimann
                                    Benteke
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 27, 2012, 05:03:13 PM
Well, I thought Herd was outstanding today.
And Delph demonstrated his fallibility.
So it'd be this for me:
                                   Guzan
          Lowton    Vlaar      Dunne / Baker  Bennett
                          Herd                Clark
                                        KEA
                     Holman                  Weimann
                                    Benteke

Nowhere near enough creativity in that midfield i'd say.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Risso on October 27, 2012, 05:03:39 PM
It's not the formation, it's the quality of our midfielders.  Delph is horrendous, and should be dropped for Herd immediately.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Monty on October 27, 2012, 05:04:31 PM
It's not the formation, it's the quality of our midfielders.

It can be both. We played the wrong players and the wrong system today.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 27, 2012, 05:06:49 PM
It's not the formation, it's the quality of our midfielders.  Delph is horrendous, and should be dropped for Herd immediately.

It's both and I completely agree on Delph but you need to add Albrighton to that. The formation is wrong because we always end up with one redundant striker and an overrun midfield, so we need 5 in midfield.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: PeterWithesShin on October 27, 2012, 05:08:07 PM
It's not the formation, it's the quality of our midfielders.  Delph is horrendous, and should be dropped for Herd immediately.

Delph is so frustrating. I tried to keep more of an eye on him today and he does so much good stuff that unless you're watching him you miss, then after doing that he gives the ball away needlessly. Herd in for him every time for me at the moment. But i'd have Herd in whenever he's available at the moment.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Ads on October 27, 2012, 05:11:58 PM
Risso you are bang on the money. Delph offers nothing.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Witton Warrior on October 27, 2012, 05:12:43 PM
It's not the formation, it's the quality of our midfielders.  Delph is horrendous, and should be dropped for Herd immediately.

Delph is so frustrating. I tried to keep more of an eye on him today and he does so much good stuff that unless you're watching him you miss, then after doing that he gives the ball away needlessly. Herd in for him every time for me at the moment. But i'd have Herd in whenever he's available at the moment.

I agree about Delph being frustrating and doing decent stuff anf then passing to the opposotion - problem is they were all doing it...

Have seen one "killer" pass this season which went to Weimann in the Everton game and he hit the post - who played that in?
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: PeterWithesShin on October 27, 2012, 05:13:54 PM
It's not the formation, it's the quality of our midfielders.  Delph is horrendous, and should be dropped for Herd immediately.

Delph is so frustrating. I tried to keep more of an eye on him today and he does so much good stuff that unless you're watching him you miss, then after doing that he gives the ball away needlessly. Herd in for him every time for me at the moment. But i'd have Herd in whenever he's available at the moment.

I agree about Delph being frustrating and doing decent stuff anf then passing to the opposotion - problem is they were all doing it...

Have seen one "killer" pass this season which went to Weimann in the Everton game and he hit the post - who played that in?

Holman I think?
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: glasses on October 27, 2012, 06:44:22 PM
It's not the formation, it's the quality of our midfielders.  Delph is horrendous, and should be dropped for Herd immediately.

Delph is so frustrating. I tried to keep more of an eye on him today and he does so much good stuff that unless you're watching him you miss, then after doing that he gives the ball away needlessly. Herd in for him every time for me at the moment. But i'd have Herd in whenever he's available at the moment.

I agree about Delph being frustrating and doing decent stuff anf then passing to the opposotion - problem is they were all doing it...

Have seen one "killer" pass this season which went to Weimann in the Everton game and he hit the post - who played that in?

Holman I think?
It was Holman. He was pants today.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: onje_villa on October 27, 2012, 06:48:51 PM
It's not the formation, it's the quality of our midfielders.  Delph is horrendous, and should be dropped for Herd immediately.

Delph is so frustrating. I tried to keep more of an eye on him today and he does so much good stuff that unless you're watching him you miss, then after doing that he gives the ball away needlessly. Herd in for him every time for me at the moment. But i'd have Herd in whenever he's available at the moment.
Delph is so frustrating because he doesn't do any good stuff.
Reminds me of another midfielder who we used to have who couldn't pass, couldn't tackle and couldn't shoot.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Toronto Villa on October 27, 2012, 06:52:48 PM
4-4-2 will be attempted as long as Bent stays at the club because whether he starts or comes on we will try and accomodate him. I'd prefer we move to a 1 striker system with 5 midfielders that can attack and defend. It will be a good while before we see that. Lambert has his work cut out trying to make do with what he has as much as get thebnew players integrated into the current situation.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Monty on October 27, 2012, 06:55:01 PM
4-4-2 will be attempted as long as Bent stays at the club because whether he starts or comes on we will try and accomodate him. I'd prefer we move to a 1 striker system with 5 midfielders that can attack and defend. It will be a good while before we see that. Lambert has his work cut out trying to make do with what he has as much as get thebnew players integrated into the current situation.

Well, I'd agree if it weren't for the fact that the only time Bent made an appearance today was as the lone striker, and his best spell at Sunderland was in a counter-attacking 4-3-3. I think Lambert likes to have two forwards because it can help with pressing the opponents back four and in midfield, but it's leaving us far too short. Winning the ball's all well and good, but you have to keep it as well.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: hawkeye on October 27, 2012, 07:37:39 PM
its the players, none of the 4 midfield players today are good enough, the 2 fullbacks are marginal.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: villan from luton on October 27, 2012, 10:37:10 PM
I like the thought of Benteke up front, supported by weimann Ireland and possibly a less than lazy N Zogiba, with Bannan and KEA as holding players. Confidence is awful at the moment
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: pbavfckuwait on October 28, 2012, 07:22:50 AM
This is the worrying thing, our answer now is to bring in players that for part of this season and all of last season were not good enough, or if they were good enough it showed on to few occassions. The amount of slagging Ireland gets, at least 75% on here have stated that Bannan is never going to make it, because of his tendency for Hollywood passes and how many times have we heard CNZ does nothing but runs into defenders, never looks up and gets one good cross in a month. Now all of a sudden they are the answer to all our problems and they will come in and make a change that will see us surge to safety and dont even get me started on Bent/ Benteke debate.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Mister E on October 28, 2012, 07:54:57 AM
Well, I thought Herd was outstanding today.
And Delph demonstrated his fallibility.
So it'd be this for me:
                                   Guzan
          Lowton    Vlaar      Dunne / Baker  Bennett
                          Herd                Clark
                                        KEA
                     Holman                  Weimann
                                    Benteke

Nowhere near enough creativity in that midfield i'd say.
True but Herd and Clark are able to make sensible and simple passes. They are reasonably reliable IMO.
Maybe we should drop KEA for BB in the set-up above.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Holte L2 on October 28, 2012, 08:57:55 AM
                 Guzan
Lowton.  Vlaar.  Baker.  Bennett

                 Makoun *

   Bannan El Ahmadi  Agbonlahor

             Bent Benteke

*The only snag is getting Makoun a work permit. The easy option would be to do what Big Ron did with Bozzie. Find him a wife.

It's clear that Gabby isn't a striker,but his workrate is useful.  Hence why I'd sit him a midfield 3 trying to create.

             
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: john e on October 28, 2012, 09:06:14 AM
at least Delph is involved, and keeps showing up for the ball,
 i have seen players like N'Zog who might have well not been on the pitch, when you are going through a bad time he's the last player you can rely on, he goes missing. quite frankly i havent seen him have one decent game yet, and for the most part has been rubbish, he is not the answer

Albrighton was far worse than Delph yesterday, cant beieve he remained on the pitch till the end
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: eastie on October 28, 2012, 09:10:45 AM
at least Delph is involved, and keeps showing up for the ball,
 i have seen players like N'Zog who might have well not been on the pitch, when you are going through a bad time he's the last player you can rely on, he goes missing. quite frankly i havent seen him have one decent game yet, and for the most part has been rubbish, he is not the answer

Albrighton was far worse than Delph yesterday, cant beieve he remained on the pitch till the end

Nzogbia will be out for a few weeks anyway, with dunne out till Xmas at least,  baker another few weeks also , it's looking a bit of a threadbare squad with a huge lack of quality and experience.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: john e on October 28, 2012, 09:12:31 AM
at least Delph is involved, and keeps showing up for the ball,
 i have seen players like N'Zog who might have well not been on the pitch, when you are going through a bad time he's the last player you can rely on, he goes missing. quite frankly i havent seen him have one decent game yet, and for the most part has been rubbish, he is not the answer

Albrighton was far worse than Delph yesterday, cant beieve he remained on the pitch till the end

Nzogbia will be out for a few weeks anyway, with dunne out till Xmas at least,  baker another few weeks also , it's looking a bit of a threadbare squad with a huge lack of quality and experience.

oh yeah, forgot he was injured, no loss in my view
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: brian green on October 28, 2012, 09:18:59 AM
The failure of Marc Albrighton to become the player we expected him to be is little short of tragic.   The last one to fall as fast and as far was Stefan Moore.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: silhillvilla on October 28, 2012, 09:22:41 AM
Please describe it as 442 diamond. Ie very very narrow. Which means we have zero attacking width and no cover / protection for two young fragile full backs .
It's obvious from the stands but Lambert worryingly can't see it.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: dalians umbrella on October 28, 2012, 10:29:51 AM
I would try:


                                                                       GUZAN


                LOWTON                          VLAAR                     BAKER                        BENNETT


                                                      HERD                    EL-AHMADI / CLARKE


            N'ZOGBIA                                          HOLMAN                                         GABBY


                                                                     BENTEKE


If N'zogbia is injured, I'd either replace him with Carruther or put Holman wide and put Ireland behind Benteke.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: eastie on October 28, 2012, 10:37:32 AM
                       Guzan

Lowton.      Clark.      Vlaar.       Baker

            Herd.     El ahmedi. 

    Carruthers.       Weimann.        Nzogbia

                          Benteke

When all fit that would be the team I'd go with.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Holte L2 on October 28, 2012, 10:49:26 AM
at least Delph is involved, and keeps showing up for the ball,
 i have seen players like N'Zog who might have well not been on the pitch, when you are going through a bad time he's the last player you can rely on, he goes missing. quite frankly i havent seen him have one decent game yet, and for the most part has been rubbish, he is not the answer

Albrighton was far worse than Delph yesterday, cant beieve he remained on the pitch till the end

Delph is a booking waiting to happen. At times he has the right idea,but is far too sloppy at times. N'zogbia was excellent against Man City and IMO warranted a start against Albion.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: ez on October 28, 2012, 11:11:30 AM
What happened to the passing/possession game we were playing earlier in the season? That looked like it was coming together and now its been abandoned.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Monty on October 28, 2012, 11:14:15 AM
What happened to the passing/possession game we were playing earlier in the season? That looked like it was coming together and now its been abandoned.

It's simple, to me anyway: Bannan, Ireland and KEA created a little axis together where they could move the ball at varying speeds, and where each one was on the others' wavelength. KEA looked isolated yesterday, as if he didn't trust any of the midfield around him, and we had no tempo to our passing - it was sluggish, crab-like and innocuous. Football is a team game, and for me those three playing give us the best team.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: brian green on October 28, 2012, 11:38:40 AM
For all his baggage Ireland is the only genuinely creative player we have.   For me he has to be in the starting line up
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Holte L2 on October 28, 2012, 11:44:40 AM
For all his baggage Ireland is the only genuinely creative player we have.   For me he has to be in the starting line up

Why, what has he created since the Chelsea game?
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Apyadg on October 28, 2012, 11:45:02 AM
Agreed, it's really odd that he hasn't been getting a few more games.

With him, Bent and CNZ barely getting a sniff, it makes me wonder if the wage bill is still a target and Lambert's already been told to get rid.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: supertom on October 28, 2012, 02:15:43 PM
Why have the last few managers all tried using Delph as a deep lying midfielder? He's just not. His tackling is poor. He was an attacking midfielder at Leeds. For me we need to play him (if we do play him) as a more advanced midfielder. He's only shown it briefly this season but he's quite good when he makes bursting runs. He's got a turn of pace and we should be using that. Either we give him more freedom by sitting Herd behind him and KEA, or play Delph on the left. Delph has a decent shot on him from distance but he never gots forward enough to use it.

The problem too is that he and KEA are too similar. Their tidy on the ball, keep it well enough but they won't pick that penetrating pass. Neither is a defesnive mid either, both too clumsy in the tackle. I just think playing the two together gets us nowhere. They read each other well actually, but because they offer more or less the same, there's no reason to have both.

I thought Herd played quite well yesterday and earned himself another game. Hopefully he'll be able to switch back to midfield. I'd sit him as the anchor with KEA/Delph and Bannan/Ireland in CM.

And enough of the 4-4-2. Not working.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 28, 2012, 02:18:59 PM
For all his baggage Ireland is the only genuinely creative player we have.   For me he has to be in the starting line up


Completely agree and I'm not sure why he's been dropped, he's looked pretty good this season. The fact that Delph has been consistently useless and plays is utter madness.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: supertom on October 28, 2012, 02:19:47 PM
For all his baggage Ireland is the only genuinely creative player we have.   For me he has to be in the starting line up

Why, what has he created since the Chelsea game?
My view too. We can't afford to have players who drift in and out of games. For that reason three of our most expensive assets, Bent, N'Zogbia and Ireland are struggling to start regularly. Ireland even at his best last season still to me, never had a decent 90 minutes. We really can't afford that. N'Zogbia is a ghost sometimes. For all Irelands technical ability I've never seen him dictate a game. I was one hoping he could be our new Merse, but he's nowhere near (aside from the questionable party lifestyle).

Even if we could get the best out of all of them you couldn't get away with playing all three. We'd get ripped apart (more so than usual).

Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: john in oz on October 28, 2012, 02:41:21 PM
bent,ireland and n'zogbia in for me,to many inexperienced kids there   and some are not ready for premier league
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: onje_villa on October 28, 2012, 02:46:58 PM
What struck me yesterday and has to be honest struck me many times over recent years is just how hopeless our team is technically.

Every pass, even the successful ones are a yard to far, a yard short, behind the man. Norwich for all their averageness could control a football and pass it with ease and pace to a team-mate.

That's why Delph in particular baffles me, how can a central midfielder have poor technique? You can excuse a centre back to an extent but as a midfielder, it's your bread and butter. Trap the ball, look around you, pass it on.

KEA is frustrating, he appears to be suffering from Draperitis, a quality midfielder who was brillian elsewhere, comes to Villa and plays so within himself it's not true. Where are the driving runs he used to offer for PSV?

In fact, drive is one of the things we miss so much. Someone to pick the ball up and just have a go, get forward, try and engineer things. In fact, only really Vlaar our centre back, appears to have that in his locker.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Holte L2 on October 28, 2012, 03:30:58 PM
For all his baggage Ireland is the only genuinely creative player we have.   For me he has to be in the starting line up

Why, what has he created since the Chelsea game?
My view too. We can't afford to have players who drift in and out of games. For that reason three of our most expensive assets, Bent, N'Zogbia and Ireland are struggling to start regularly. Ireland even at his best last season still to me, never had a decent 90 minutes. We really can't afford that. N'Zogbia is a ghost sometimes. For all Irelands technical ability I've never seen him dictate a game. I was one hoping he could be our new Merse, but he's nowhere near (aside from the questionable party lifestyle).

Even if we could get the best out of all of them you couldn't get away with playing all three. We'd get ripped apart (more so than usual).

N'zogbia has showed promise against City,so I would be tempted to play him, but in a central role behind Benteke.

But I'm also shouting for Gabby to play in midfield to allow us to maximise his workrate so i could be completely wrong.

What I do know, is that Ireland isn't the answer.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Pat McMahon on October 28, 2012, 03:35:58 PM
At the moment I don't ever feel that any of our substitutions will make a positive difference.

I honestly don't know what our best team is, and the players on the bench seem about the same as the starting XI
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Rudy Can't Fail on October 28, 2012, 04:07:01 PM
We have to first sort out the central midfielders and for me that has to be Herd in a deep defensive role allowing KEA to get up and down the pitch. Neither Bannan or Delph are defensive midielders.

I'd then look at playing Gabby on the left, Ireland in the centre and Bannan on the right.

Then you have the option of either Bent or Benteke up front. One thing our midfield fail to do is provide  service to the strikers but hopefully with a creative attacking midfield that would no longer be a problem.

N'Zogbia simply isn't good enough and we should look to get rid in January.

Holman for all his workrate has difficulty completing a pass and even when he does, it's often short putting the Villa player under immediate and unnecessary pressure. He should be fighting for Bannan's place.

Albrighton only from the bench. His confidence is shot. One big groan from the Holte yesterday when he misplaced a ball and he never recovered.

Andreas can come on from the bench and needs to get more game time. Let him fight with Gabby for a shirt. The kid will not go missing and is ideal to replace Gabby on 75 mins.

Delph will have to bide his time but can be our midfield sub. He needs time to develop and currently can't take the heat. I'd like to see him replacing KEA in a box to box role from the bench.

Westwood - no idea.

We need to start playing to our strengths and use what experience we have as the next feww weeks are going to be tough and not the place for the innocent or inexperienced.Lambert needs to instill a sense of responsibility on the players. As somebody mentioned earlier, Ireland needs to start dictating games, not just playing a bit role. Bannan fancies himself but now he needs to step up and show us what he can do, as he so often does in the Reserves.

Above all we need the team to start acting like a team. If you're not good enough, you're out. We can't afford to carry any passengers.

Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: onje_villa on October 28, 2012, 04:18:44 PM
We have to first sort out the central midfielders and for me that has to be Herd in a deep defensive role allowing KEA to get up and down the pitch. Neither Bannan or Delph are defensive midielders.

I'd then look at playing Gabby on the left, Ireland in the centre and Bannan on the right.

Then you have the option of either Bent or Benteke up front. One thing our midfield fail to do is provide  service to the strikers but hopefully with a creative attacking midfield that would no longer be a problem.

N'Zogbia simply isn't good enough and we should look to get rid in January.

Holman for all his workrate has difficulty completing a pass and even when he does, it's often short putting the Villa player under immediate and unnecessary pressure. He should be fighting for Bannan's place.

Albrighton only from the bench. His confidence is shot. One big groan from the Holte yesterday when he misplaced a ball and he never recovered.

Andreas can come on from the bench and needs to get more game time. Let him fight with Gabby for a shirt. The kid will not go missing and is ideal to replace Gabby on 75 mins.

Delph will have to bide his time but can be our midfield sub. He needs time to develop and currently can't take the heat. I'd like to see him replacing KEA in a box to box role from the bench.

Westwood - no idea.

We need to start playing to our strengths and use what experience we have as the next feww weeks are going to be tough and not the place for the innocent or inexperienced.Lambert needs to instill a sense of responsibility on the players. As somebody mentioned earlier, Ireland needs to start dictating games, not just playing a bit role. Bannan fancies himself but now he needs to step up and show us what he can do, as he so often does in the Reserves.

Above all we need the team to start acting like a team. If you're not good enough, you're out. We can't afford to carry any passengers.
Good post.
It's funny but when us lot pick the side, our midfield can end up looking pretty decent. Bannan, KEA and Ireland are good technical footballers, Herd is a terrier, Holman will run all day - get it right and everyone in the right positions and suddenly we're a pretty good side.

Lambert just appears to be trying every midfielder in every different position at the moment.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Holte L2 on October 28, 2012, 04:27:08 PM
We have to first sort out the central midfielders and for me that has to be Herd in a deep defensive role allowing KEA to get up and down the pitch. Neither Bannan or Delph are defensive midielders.

I'd then look at playing Gabby on the left, Ireland in the centre and Bannan on the right.

Then you have the option of either Bent or Benteke up front. One thing our midfield fail to do is provide  service to the strikers but hopefully with a creative attacking midfield that would no longer be a problem.

N'Zogbia simply isn't good enough and we should look to get rid in January.

Holman for all his workrate has difficulty completing a pass and even when he does, it's often short putting the Villa player under immediate and unnecessary pressure. He should be fighting for Bannan's place.

Albrighton only from the bench. His confidence is shot. One big groan from the Holte yesterday when he misplaced a ball and he never recovered.

Andreas can come on from the bench and needs to get more game time. Let him fight with Gabby for a shirt. The kid will not go missing and is ideal to replace Gabby on 75 mins.

Delph will have to bide his time but can be our midfield sub. He needs time to develop and currently can't take the heat. I'd like to see him replacing KEA in a box to box role from the bench.

Westwood - no idea.

We need to start playing to our strengths and use what experience we have as the next feww weeks are going to be tough and not the place for the innocent or inexperienced.Lambert needs to instill a sense of responsibility on the players. As somebody mentioned earlier, Ireland needs to start dictating games, not just playing a bit role. Bannan fancies himself but now he needs to step up and show us what he can do, as he so often does in the Reserves.

Above all we need the team to start acting like a team. If you're not good enough, you're out.
We can't afford to carry any passengers.



Agree with the majority. But Herd hasn't the quality to be a deep lying midfielder. He has a great engine but his quality is limited. And again,reff Ireland he hasn't demonstrated the qualities to warrant a place in the team. I would though,give N'zogbia a run based on his performance against City and Fulham.

A fit Joe Cole on loan would be ideal.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Rudy Can't Fail on October 28, 2012, 04:39:08 PM


But Herd hasn't the quality to be a deep lying midfielder. He has a great engine but his quality is limited. And again,reff Ireland he hasn't demonstrated the qualities to warrant a place in the team. I would though,give N'zogbia a run based on his performance against City and Fulham.

A fit Joe Cole on loan would be ideal.

Herd has enough quality to do the job. Even NRC in his last season for us did the job and with the exception of Downing was our player of the year. All Herd needs to do is make himself constantly available for the pass and keep it simple.

Not sure how you can dismiss Ireland and in the same sentence say give N'Zogbia a go. The same N'Zogbia who has achieved the square root of fuck all since he's ben here, unless you include running into cul-de-sacs.

We need men not boys, players to take responsibility and whilst Ireland may not have controled games the way he did at City, I certainly have him ahead of N'Zogbia who I doubt even takes the responsibility of dressing himself in the morning.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: DB on October 28, 2012, 04:40:24 PM
From yesterday, I think the defence and forwards played well. The 2 full-backs (until the sending off) did really well. It is our midfied - Delph and Albrighton have to be dropped, lightweight and giving the ball away. MA put 1 good cross in the whole match early in the 2nd half, apart from that offered nothing. As for Delph, I would sell him back to Leeds or whoever, sorry, he just isn't good enough.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Holte L2 on October 28, 2012, 05:45:59 PM


But Herd hasn't the quality to be a deep lying midfielder. He has a great engine but his quality is limited. And again,reff Ireland he hasn't demonstrated the qualities to warrant a place in the team. I would though,give N'zogbia a run based on his performance against City and Fulham.

A fit Joe Cole on loan would be ideal.

Herd has enough quality to do the job. Even NRC in his last season for us did the job and with the exception of Downing was our player of the year. All Herd needs to do is make himself constantly available for the pass and keep it simple.

Not sure how you can dismiss Ireland and in the same sentence say give N'Zogbia a go. The same N'Zogbia who has achieved the square root of fuck all since he's ben here, unless you include running into cul-de-sacs.

We need men not boys, players to take responsibility and whilst Ireland may not have controled games the way he did at City, I certainly have him ahead of N'Zogbia who I doubt even takes the responsibility of dressing himself in the morning.


But Herd hasn't the quality to be a deep lying midfielder. He has a great engine but his quality is limited. And again,reff Ireland he hasn't demonstrated the qualities to warrant a place in the team. I would though,give N'zogbia a run based on his performance against City and Fulham.

A fit Joe Cole on loan would be ideal.

Herd has enough quality to do the job. Even NRC in his last season for us did the job and with the exception of Downing was our player of the year. All Herd needs to do is make himself constantly available for the pass and keep it simple.

Not sure how you can dismiss Ireland and in the same sentence say give N'Zogbia a go. The same N'Zogbia who has achieved the square root of fuck all since he's ben here, unless you include running into cul-de-sacs.

We need men not boys, players to take responsibility and whilst Ireland may not have controled games the way he did at City, I certainly have him ahead of N'Zogbia who I doubt even takes the responsibility of dressing himself in the morning.

Herd hasn't got the qualities to play centre mid in the top flight. He'll end up flying in with rash challenges and leave us over exposed. He will be Delph x2.

I understand where your coming from reff N'zogbia, but he's be in on merit of his display against City where he was excellent and his camio against Fulham. We need to be picking on form. I'm guessing you were not at either games in order to dismiss those performances? Again, Ireland started against Fulham and contributed fuck all.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Rudy Can't Fail on October 28, 2012, 06:18:55 PM
Herd hasn't got the qualities to play centre mid in the top flight. He'll end up flying in with rash challenges and leave us over exposed. He will be Delph x2.

I understand where your coming from reff N'zogbia, but he's be in on merit of his display against City where he was excellent and his camio against Fulham. We need to be picking on form. I'm guessing you were not at either games in order to dismiss those performances? Again, Ireland started against Fulham and contributed fuck all.

Herd: Two things on why he should start ahead of Delph.
1. Herd no matter where he's asked to play, never let's us down.
2. He's far more suited to the role than Delph and let's face it, we don't have anybody else.

N'Zogbia: You're right, due to late night bus services I didn't attend the games but whilst I admit he had a good game by his standards against City, against Fulham he managed to do all the complicated stuff but failed to deliver. The man could final a dead end on a motorway.

If I was feeling generous, which let's pretend I am right now, I'd possibly have him coming off the bench to replace Ireland in the attacking midfield free role but I'd really have to be bloody Father Christmas generous. Not only does he not deliver despite a ridiculous number of opportunities, I don't see him being able to connect with those around him. He's on a completely different plant, nevermind wavelength. Planet Zog is my guess.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Can Gana Be Bettered!?!? on October 28, 2012, 06:21:15 PM
Not sure if it's been mentioned, but I noticed Lawrenson commented on how he wondered why Lambert hasn't taken his attacking approach from Norwich to us. I'm inclined to agree with him, why hasn't he?
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Californian Villain on October 28, 2012, 06:23:52 PM
bent,ireland and n'zogbia in for me.....

It's up to the manager to start getting the best, or something closer to it, out of these guys...or at least out of one or two of them.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Rudy Can't Fail on October 28, 2012, 07:19:54 PM
Not sure if it's been mentioned, but I noticed Lawrenson commented on how he wondered why Lambert hasn't taken his attacking approach from Norwich to us. I'm inclined to agree with him, why hasn't he?

Probably as he still hasn't sorted out the midfield.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Holte L2 on October 28, 2012, 07:22:29 PM
Herd hasn't got the qualities to play centre mid in the top flight. He'll end up flying in with rash challenges and leave us over exposed. He will be Delph x2.

I understand where your coming from reff N'zogbia, but he's be in on merit of his display against City where he was excellent and his camio against Fulham. We need to be picking on form. I'm guessing you were not at either games in order to dismiss those performances? Again, Ireland started against Fulham and contributed fuck all.

Herd: Two things on why he should start ahead of Delph.
1. Herd no matter where he's asked to play, never let's us down.
2. He's far more suited to the role than Delph and let's face it, we don't have anybody else.

N'Zogbia: You're right, due to late night bus services I didn't attend the games but whilst I admit he had a good game by his standards against City, against Fulham he managed to do all the complicated stuff but failed to deliver. The man could final a dead end on a motorway.

If I was feeling generous, which let's pretend I am right now, I'd possibly have him coming off the bench to replace Ireland in the attacking midfield free role but I'd really have to be bloody Father Christmas generous. Not only does he not deliver despite a ridiculous number of opportunities, I don't see him being able to connect with those around him. He's on a completely different plant, nevermind wavelength. Planet Zog is my guess.

Personally I wouldn't start Herd or Delph. I'd play a midfield three of Bannan,KEA,Holman with N'zogbia supporting Bent and Benteke.

How do you justify Ireland's inclusion then? Considering he hasnt contributed ANYTHING for nearly 12 months. R.E N'zogbia. It was his cross that created the Benteke chance! I was nearly ready to pull the plug on N'zogbia but the City performance made me want to give him a chance.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Can Gana Be Bettered!?!? on October 28, 2012, 07:54:48 PM
Not sure if it's been mentioned, but I noticed Lawrenson commented on how he wondered why Lambert hasn't taken his attacking approach from Norwich to us. I'm inclined to agree with him, why hasn't he?

Probably as he still hasn't sorted out the midfield.

He could play Bent, Ireland and N'Zogbia?
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: ciggiesnbeer on October 28, 2012, 08:13:18 PM
What struck me yesterday and has to be honest struck me many times over recent years is just how hopeless our team is technically.

Every pass, even the successful ones are a yard to far, a yard short, behind the man. Norwich for all their averageness could control a football and pass it with ease and pace to a team-mate.

That's why Delph in particular baffles me, how can a central midfielder have poor technique? You can excuse a centre back to an extent but as a midfielder, it's your bread and butter. Trap the ball, look around you, pass it on.

KEA is frustrating, he appears to be suffering from Draperitis, a quality midfielder who was brillian elsewhere, comes to Villa and plays so within himself it's not true. Where are the driving runs he used to offer for PSV?

In fact, drive is one of the things we miss so much. Someone to pick the ball up and just have a go, get forward, try and engineer things. In fact, only really Vlaar our centre back, appears to have that in his locker.

Agree with this strongly. If anything we have gone backwards since West Ham. My worry (and I know its not popular) is the rot seemed to kick in once Benteke joined and we had an outlet for the long ball which we use too much. In addition Lambert has started to play more and more with width, which is a mistake for a possession based team (which is how I thought he wanted us to play).

Forget wingers, forget long balls, pack midfield to support the front two and get creative players of quality to unlock defences. Ireland is genuinely capable of this and on his best days so is KEA.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: brian green on October 28, 2012, 08:41:05 PM
Agree with pretty much all of that but I think if we are to survive this season it will be with goals from Christian Benteke and Andreas Weimann.   I have a gut feeling that they could form a formidable combination.   Let's face it we need it desperately.

As for KEA we were having an across the seats discussion about him yesterday and we all agreed (a rarity) that too often he finds himself behind the man he is attempting to tackle or dispossess.

I am one hundred percent in agreement with the comment that our midfield is technically sloppy.   If you are going to try to play the passing game the passes have to be exactly right for weight for direction and for distance.   Teams like Spain and Barca have destroyed opponents with the passing game for three reasons.   They pass the ball accurately and well, they are superbly fit and if they lose the ball they harass and harry the opposition until they get it back.   You cannot play passing football until you can tick all three boxes.   If you cannot do it properly you are better off playing like Stoke and grinding out Premiership security than sloppily passing your way into the Championship.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: ciggiesnbeer on October 28, 2012, 08:50:00 PM
Agreed. Its just bizarre we have gone backwards since the start of the season. I also think Benteke is not a one dimensional player who needs crosses and he can thrive off good service whether crossed or through the middle, he does when playing for Belgium for example.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: tomd2103 on October 28, 2012, 09:03:58 PM
Well, I thought Herd was outstanding today.
And Delph demonstrated his fallibility.
So it'd be this for me:
                                   Guzan
          Lowton    Vlaar      Dunne / Baker  Bennett
                          Herd                Clark
                                        KEA
                     Holman                  Weimann
                                    Benteke

Mr E - that would be the formation I would go with going into the next few games.  The Only changes I would make to personnel would be to play KEA in a deeper role alongside Herd and play Ireland in the AM position.  Apart from that, I'd be tempted to go with that team.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: onje_villa on October 28, 2012, 09:05:03 PM
Agreed. Its just bizarre we have gone backwards since the start of the season. I also think Benteke is not a one dimensional player who needs crosses and he can thrive off good service whether crossed or through the middle, he does when playing for Belgium for example.
Yep, I was really, really optimistic after the Swansea performance. It was like a breath of fresh air. Last few games have been back to the depression of old. Lambert has probably been guilty of over-tinkering.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: supertom on October 29, 2012, 06:07:11 AM
We're playing too much with fear. We're too tense. We've got that air of desperation in our play and it makes even the simplest things look difficult. I also think it makes some players look less technically capable sometimes than they are. That's not helping. We're scared pussies as someone said on another thread.
Our system, which isn't working, largely because of personel (or lack of suitable quality) just makes it worse.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: MarkM on October 29, 2012, 08:27:53 AM
Looking ahead to the Utd, City and Arsenal games I doubt it really matters what tactics he uses as I think getting anything out of them will be pretty difficult.

Perhaps he will call TSM for advice on parking the bus and holding out for a 1-0 loss.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Merv on October 29, 2012, 10:13:31 AM
It's baffling that Bannan can't get a start at the mo. He was excellent at Newcastle. Set things up right, he'll keep the ball all day.

Whether it's a 4-5-1, 4-3-3, 4-1-2-1-2, 4-2-1-3 or whatever, we need three central midfielders to get hold of the ball and give us a chance of running a game. I'd have KEA just behind Holman and Bannan, with Westwood, Ireland and Delph as the understudies for those roles.

N'Zogbia's injury has knackered my plans for the front three somewhat, so I'd be looking at Weimann, Bent/Benteke and Agbonlahor.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: JUAN PABLO on October 29, 2012, 10:18:17 AM
I watched a bit of manure game before I fell asleep. All I was thinking watching the game was width , manure using the flanks with Young and Valencia at times and thinking to myself . I wish we had some bloody width at times.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Clampy on October 29, 2012, 10:22:23 AM
I watched a bit of manure game before I fell asleep. All I was thinking watching the game was width , manure using the flanks with Young and Valencia at times and thinking to myself . I wish we had some bloody width at times.

I think that with every game i watch.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on October 29, 2012, 10:24:22 AM
Looking ahead to the Utd, City and Arsenal games I doubt it really matters what tactics he uses as I think getting anything out of them will be pretty difficult.

Perhaps he will call TSM for advice on parking the bus and holding out for a 1-0 loss.

It would be very handy if PL could pull a surprise win out the hat from one of those 3 games in November. TSM at least managed that with Chelsea away.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: JUAN PABLO on October 29, 2012, 10:29:36 AM
maybe arsenal will be the shock result again . we did once with Bent I remember .
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: MarkM on October 29, 2012, 11:46:21 AM
maybe arsenal will be the shock result again . we did once with Bent I remember .

I think with our lightweight midfield there more skillfull players [Utd, City and Arse] will tear us to pieces, we may get a real spanking of one of them
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: paul_e on October 29, 2012, 11:53:26 AM
It's baffling that Bannan can't get a start at the mo. He was excellent at Newcastle. Set things up right, he'll keep the ball all day.

Whether it's a 4-5-1, 4-3-3, 4-1-2-1-2, 4-2-1-3 or whatever, we need three central midfielders to get hold of the ball and give us a chance of running a game. I'd have KEA just behind Holman and Bannan, with Westwood, Ireland and Delph as the understudies for those roles.

N'Zogbia's injury has knackered my plans for the front three somewhat, so I'd be looking at Weimann, Bent/Benteke and Agbonlahor.

Agree totally with the first paragraph, I just can't understand the logic of dropping Bannan for Delph and persisting with it, it's the only really big mistake I think Lambert has made so far.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: fredm on October 29, 2012, 12:28:46 PM


I think with our lightweight midfield there more skillfull players [Utd, City and Arse] will tear us to pieces, we may get a real spanking of one of them
[/quote]

I have a very nasty feeling that it will not be just one of them that we get a spanking from.  Our midfield will be run ragged and the two full backs will be sent dizzy watching opponents fly past them.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: onje_villa on October 29, 2012, 03:06:33 PM


I think with our lightweight midfield there more skillfull players [Utd, City and Arse] will tear us to pieces, we may get a real spanking of one of them

I have a very nasty feeling that it will not be just one of them that we get a spanking from.  Our midfield will be run ragged and the two full backs will be sent dizzy watching opponents fly past them.
[/quote]
Not if they're no longer on the pitch ;)
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: N'ZMAV on October 29, 2012, 09:51:23 PM
Imagine Yaya Toure playing against KEA & Bannan. Fucking hell. I dread to think.
Title: Re: Tactics
Post by: Monty on October 30, 2012, 09:48:03 AM
Imagine Yaya Toure playing against KEA & Bannan. Fucking hell. I dread to think.

Or Yaya Toure against Christian Eriksen and Siem de Jong? ;)
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