Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Risso on August 20, 2012, 10:17:02 AM
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I've been thinking about this lately, and while it may seem counter intuitive to sell our best [only] goalscorer, I think the idea has merit for the following reasons:
1) I don't think Lerner is going to provide much in the way of extra funds before the end of August, and by my reckoning we could do with another three to four players at least, so if we could get the £18m back we initially stumped up, somebody like Lambert should be able to get some value in the transfer market.
2) If Bent isn't scoring, he isn't doing anything else, and he hardly touched the ball on Saturday. I think we need more of a team player to be honest, but one who can still bag a few goals and bring others like Ireland into the game.
Of course, if we could buy the players to bring the best out of him, then an in form Bent is a brilliant predator in the area, but I don't think we can afford to wait for the team to click to be honest in terms of getting the ball to him regularly.
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He's not scoring because he's basically playing in an above average Championship team with no creative midfield. We might as well sell him but shouldn't expect Randy to invest the proceeds on the pitch.
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It would be madness to sell him. What needs to be done is get someone in who can supply him some ammunition.
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It would be madness to sell him. What needs to be done is get someone in who can supply him some ammunition.
Agree entirely.
Also, if the financial regime is still in place, flogging one player to buy in three or four draws on the wage bill isn't going to be something Lerner will do.
Relying on Gabby, Weimann and Delf to get the goals this season is just way too risky.
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It has taken us years and years to get a 20 goal a season man and then sell him . Stupid
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Keep Bent & get the best out of him. Surely Lambert has a way of doing this.
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He's not scoring because he's basically playing in an above average Championship team with no creative midfield. We might as well sell him but shouldn't expect Randy to invest the proceeds on the pitch.
Sweet baby jesus. 1 game in!
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It has taken us years and years to get a 20 goal a season man and then sell him . Stupid
Totally agree with this.
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Who would buy him?
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He's had one competitive game back since a longish injury lay off and at the same time we're trying to bed in half a new team. It will take time for him and his new team mates to get up to speed. We just have to be patient
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If we sold Bent for say £18m, how much of it would Lerner reinvest into the squad? On recent history I'd suggest not all of it.
It would be madness to sell him.
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Bent is the last really class player we have - you build around your best players, although after the Barry, Milner, Young and Downing sales it wouldn't surprise me if Lerner sells him to get another high earner off the wage bill. Lerner needs to state his strategy for the club long term, but I suspect he's lost interest like he has with the Cleveland Browns.
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Would get a better midfield, I still think we need a winger, good balls across the box from the lady girl Downing and Young and Bent was loving it. Now they gone he's struggling.
I'd sell Ireland personally
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Selling him would be a crime. anyway, i dont think anyone would stump up the £18m we would want for him. We need our "creative" players i.e. CNZ, Ireland, Holman and Bannan to work their "magic" and supply the man. Why did it work under GH? Because we had Ashley young providing him as well as Downing. Now we have Nzog who still hasnt turned up to the party and prob wont until the end of the season, Ireland, again someone who still hasnt delivered despite having all the qualities that everyone says he has, Holman who is a newbie and needs time and finally Bannan who again, has question marks over his ability at this level.
I really hope they all click and produce on a consistant level, i really do. But selling Bent is not an option. Id happily sell either Nzog or Ireland or both if the money we recouped from that was reinvested in better players.
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Who would buy him?
I can't imagine we would get anywhere near what we paid for him. Because of the injury I don't imagine his stock is very high.
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Would be bad sign to sell him but I have a naggung feeling that the Redscouse may well come sniffing as I think he would score a hatful for them and is a much better fit for Rodgers 'style' than Carroll.
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Selling Bent is literally the worst idea I have ever heard.
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Keep Bent.
Buy Robbie Keane.
It'll work.
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Selling Bent is literally the worst idea I have ever heard.
Literally?
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I was chuffed when we bought him. Look at his stats - up there with Rooney and Drogba. It gradually dawned on me that he has no interest in doing anything else but score goals, and if he contributed anything like those two in other areas of the pitch he would have played for top clubs. By the same token, if those two never did anything outside the box they'd each get fifty goals a season.
When you see what an out-and-out goal hanger he is, how he rarely shows with his back to goal, rarely goes wide, rarely drops deep to partake in build-up play (can't blame him, he's absolutely woeful at all three when he does), his stats aren't so impressive.
As I said on the match-thread, for £18/24m, you'd want someone who can score tap-ins and penalties AND play football.
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Bent needs someone who's going to do all the donkey work for him, Shane Long would be perfect. I'd imagine he'd be out of our current price range though.
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Agreed. In a way it might make more financial sense to buy a Keane/Beardsley type to make something of the money we spent on him. Attacking midfielders are not the answer as he can't retain possession well enough to get the third man running beyond him or to join in with him. His failure to show, failure to provide an out-ball, and failure to hold the ball up also makes us vulnerable to counter-attack, which is another reason midfielders don't get up to support him. They play it up to him and stand around waiting for him to lose it. That's a psychogical vicious circle that they all need to get over. Somebody like Doyle or Fletcher could relieve him of this burden (team-play) and maybe it would work. Hopefully Lambert might find a way to get him to drop deep and keep it really simple, or make the odd run for others to exploit. On his own though, he's mid-table Premiership standard, which is okay I suppose, if a bit depressing for us.
If we sold him we'd take a hit like Spurs did when they realised they'd be better with 11 players.
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He's had one competitive game back since a longish injury lay off and at the same time we're trying to bed in half a new team. It will take time for him and his new team mates to get up to speed. We just have to be patient
I agree with this. I do think people criticising the midfield are guilty of overly lionising someone because of a goal-scoring (some would say goal-stealing) record. On Saturday, the midfield passed triangles around the West Ham midfield and then, in the final third, ran out of options. Why criticise the players ostensibly doing something right as opposed to the one who did nothing to help in the area where we failed? It was clear to me that Bent didn't contribute to build-up play, and against massed defences there can be no passengers - not even central defenders and keepers, they have to pass the ball, so absolutely not centre-forwards.
To play the way which has got Bent lots of goals over the years is often to sacrifice the team overall scoring more. It involves playing defensively and on the break, because he can make space for himself on the counter with defenders already running towards their own goal, especially with pacey wingers and maybe a hard-working striker taking the defenders' attention away - in other words, MON-ball, the style that proved obviously limited even with £100m spent on it. If we want a style of play which will score more goals overall (ie the passing game Lambert is introducing) then everyone has to buy into it - it's not as simple as players supplying one who scores, as that's so predictable and easy to play against, especially with 11 behind the ball as on Saturday.
That said, Bent has done well in the build-up play in the past. I remember, for instance, his brilliant all-round display in the Arsenal win at the end of the GH/Gary Mac season. He needs to do it more consistently though, and Chris is right that he's just come back from a long lay-off. It's also that everyone who isn't Bannan, Ireland, Delph and El Ahmadi appears to be still working to get into the new style of play, so we'll have to be patient with Bent as with almost everyone. I understand the Bent concern, but patience is the watchword.
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No.
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Wouldn't make any sense at all to sell our only player who knows where the back of the net is on a consistent basis.
The problem is that he's not getting any service at all at the moment, but i'm sure PL will soon sort that out.
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. Look at his stats - up there with Rooney and Drogba. It gradually dawned on me that he has no interest in doing anything else but score goals, and if he contributed anything like those two in other areas of the pitch he would have played for top clubs. By the same token, if those two never did anything outside the box they'd each get fifty goals a season.
No they wouldn't. Noone scores 50 goals by being just a goal poacher, for that you need to be Messi.
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No, Build a team behind him that can supply the ball and he will score goals.
That said, he does shy away from games in my opinion, receiving poor service for 90 minutes is no excuse for not tracking back or even showing an interest in getting on the ball a bit more.
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We've heard the phrase "panic buy" bandied about often in the last few years. To me selling Bent after one game of the season that went badly would be a "panic sale".
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Saturday was very difficult, because West Ham packed the centre of the pitch and we had no outlet. Bent dropped deep at times to join in, but there was very little on, and their centre halves had the easiest afternoon they will have all season.
I am coming round to the idea of swapping him to become a more effective team, but that would only be if someone like Carroll came in the other direction AND we signed another forward to play alongside. We need to find a way of stretching their back 4 more, to allow Bent a bit of space and to get good service to them. I understand the fears of a target man meaning we would play hoofball, and someone like Keane might be a better answer, he was certainly more effective than Ireland is in there, who I think could actually play deeper alongside KEA and have a much bigger effect on a game.
We need someone to commit defenders and be able to turn and play balls in behind them in the Ireland role. That will cost decent money.
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I was chuffed when we bought him. Look at his stats - up there with Rooney and Drogba. It gradually dawned on me that he has no interest in doing anything else but score goals, and if he contributed anything like those two in other areas of the pitch he would have played for top clubs. By the same token, if those two never did anything outside the box they'd each get fifty goals a season.
When you see what an out-and-out goal hanger he is, how he rarely shows with his back to goal, rarely goes wide, rarely drops deep to partake in build-up play (can't blame him, he's absolutely woeful at all three when he does), his stats aren't so impressive.
As I said on the match-thread, for £18/24m, you'd want someone who can score tap-ins and penalties AND play football.
I am in total agreement with this.
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He's not scoring because he's basically playing in an above average Championship team with no creative midfield. We might as well sell him but shouldn't expect Randy to invest the proceeds on the pitch.
You are of course entitled to your opinion but "average championship team"
::)
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I was chuffed when we bought him. Look at his stats - up there with Rooney and Drogba. It gradually dawned on me that he has no interest in doing anything else but score goals, and if he contributed anything like those two in other areas of the pitch he would have played for top clubs. By the same token, if those two never did anything outside the box they'd each get fifty goals a season.
When you see what an out-and-out goal hanger he is, how he rarely shows with his back to goal, rarely goes wide, rarely drops deep to partake in build-up play (can't blame him, he's absolutely woeful at all three when he does), his stats aren't so impressive.
As I said on the match-thread, for £18/24m, you'd want someone who can score tap-ins and penalties AND play football.
I am in total agreement with this.
And me, which is where I was coming from when I asked the question. It wasn't on the back of just one bad result either, more a theoretical question of what we would be better served by for the coming season assuming no more money is made available? Darren Bent or £18m worth of new players? Of course, that again assumes that the proceeds would be made available (by no means a forgone conclusion), but would we better with say, a £10m striker who is a better footballer than Bent, and two £4m players (eg a left back and central defender)?
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No I dont think we should sell him now. Leave it to Paul to get the best out of hom and if not ...
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I'd sell Ireland and N'Zogbia before I sold Bent.
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I'm in the give Bent some help camp. Not convinced that selling him solves our issues. The other thing is to sell him means we have to find a buyer, and the only team that would fit is Liverpool. They need a forward like Bent given the opporunities they create and waste. However, do they have the money or desire? And if not them, there are few others out there where he fits. As excellent as Bent is, as we are finding he needs a lot of things to work in his favour to be truly effective and the buying club would need that in place themselves to benefit from the purchase.
I'd sooner not panic, find some pieces to get the best out of him and go from there. It's one game after all.
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I'd sell Ireland and N'Zogbia before I sold Bent.
Totally agree with this
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See if Liverpool want to do something with N'Zogbia / Adam both have flopped to an extent but may be suited to a swap. Then see if we can get a good winger who actually wants to play for us, and a good partner for Bent, then we will see a different Bent.
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I'm in the give Bent some help camp. Not convinced that selling him solves our issues. The other thing is to sell him means we have to find a buyer, and the only team that would fit is Liverpool. They need a forward like Bent given the opporunities they create and waste. However, do they have the money or desire?
The most obvious answer is a straight swap for Carroll I guess.
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Someone make this a Poll?
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You can't fire a Howitzer with Gat Gun pellets. Give Bent the right ammunition and he'll score goals.
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I'd sell Ireland and N'Zogbia before I sold Bent.
I'd go with this. We have to see how we can create a series of game plans that involve Bent for at least some of them but that offer a variety of attacking options. This might mean bringing in a CF type player to take some of the responsibility and physicality from Bent; it may mean playing Albie / Carruthers as wingers; it suggests having a more dynamic player in "the hole" (which might be Holman once he's found his EPL feet); it may involve starting with Gabby (I said on the match thread that I think a fit GA would have done much better on Saturday against the WHU bruisers).
Bent has proved his worth: can he continue to score for us? - only time will tell.
Get an attacking LB in and perhaps (if we do offlaod Ireland and / or Charles) another MF passer and let's get more dynamic.
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I'm in the give Bent some help camp. Not convinced that selling him solves our issues. The other thing is to sell him means we have to find a buyer, and the only team that would fit is Liverpool. They need a forward like Bent given the opporunities they create and waste. However, do they have the money or desire?
The most obvious answer is a straight swap for Carroll I guess.
it would appear, but I don't think Carroll wants to go anywhere except closer to home. It's why I think he won't come and will stay on the bench at Liverpool. If Carroll wants to further his career he's likely going to have to mentally accept that his Newcastle days are over, be a big boy and prove everyone wrong somewhere else. There's a very talented footballer in there. Does he have the desire and strength to get his career back on track. Not convinced to be honest.
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I'd sell Ireland and N'Zogbia before I sold Bent.
Totally agree with this
Me too,but who the hell would buy them?
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Get Robbie Keane back! He will help Bent get back into scoring mode!
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I'd sell Ireland and N'Zogbia before I sold Bent.
Totally agree with this
Me too,but who the hell would buy them?
Indeed. The point about selling Bent isn't that he's crap, far from it, but that he would at least be worth something. I think we'd struggle to get close to £10m for Ireland and N'Zogbia combined.
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Robbie Keane's contract with LA Galaxy expires Dec 2013.
We need him back now to inspire Bent, and the others!
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/robbie-keane/profil/spieler_3144.html
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Robbie Keane's contract with LA Galaxy expires Dec 2013.
We need him back now to inspire Bent, and the others!
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/robbie-keane/profil/spieler_3144.html
Too old, too expensive.
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Its too early to say whether we should sell Bent. If Lambert is trying to filll the team wit the players and a system that feed into his strengths then no. If he hasn't the money to do that ten yes. Pointless having the Angel on top of the Christmas tree if all else you've got are a few fairy lights and a plug.
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Lambert likes a good target man up front who can hold the ball, Bent as good a finisher as he is can't do that, it will be an interesting few days but no way will he sell Bent i think he really likes playing for Villa.
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I'd rather we built the team round him, I don't think we should have to sell our prize asset because of Lerner's buffoonery.
We'll be on a really slippery slope then.
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I think with better service he will be fine I would like keep him.
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We dont need to sell Bent we need to build around him, get players that can make that pass like against west ham all we did was play hopeful balls in the air where collins had him his pocket...
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The key to get the best out of Bent is Service. People say sell him and replace with him a player who will work harder, ok fair enough but is that going to guarantee you goals? Who is out there we could buy that could replace his goal threat?
Im sorry but we saw what Bent was capable of when he had players like Young and Downing behind him (more Young than Downing). He scored for England as well with players that are there to supply him. Its obvious to see that the players we have behind him are not doing their job in terms of supplying him with ammunition and Lambert has said this in his post matches comments/interviews
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I'd rather we built the team round him, I don't think we should have to sell our prize asset because of Lerner's buffoonery.
We'll be on a really slippery slope then.
Agreed.
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We don't need Robbie keane, We need someone LIKE robbie Keane
He's too old
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I think with better service he will be fine I would like keep him.
Only saw the highlights of the Arsenal game at the weekend, but Cazorla looks exactly like the type of player we need if we are to continue with the passing game. He played some really good through balls, the type that a striker like Bent thrives on. I know some people will point to Ireland as that type of player, but he rarely gets into positions where he can create goal scoring opportunities.
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I'd rather we built the team round him, I don't think we should have to sell our prize asset because of Lerner's buffoonery.
We'll be on a really slippery slope then.
Building the team around him would just be MON-ball with a fraction of the budget. If we're going to progress and play more up-to-date football, Bent needs to adapt or be replaced. Of course he needs to be given the chance to adapt, but if he can't the team is more important, and we need a better gameplan than half our season's goals tally relying on Darren Bent.
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I'd rather we built the team round him, I don't think we should have to sell our prize asset because of Lerner's buffoonery.
We'll be on a really slippery slope then.
Building the team around him would just be MON-ball with a fraction of the budget. If we're going to progress and play more up-to-date football, Bent needs to adapt or be replaced. Of course he needs to be given the chance to adapt, but if he can't the team is more important, and we need a better gameplan than half our season's goals tally relying on Darren Bent.
Agreed.
We just need to let Lambert get on with shaping his team and by the looks of it, with Bent being made captain, I'd say DB is very much part of his plans. A work in progress as they say. However, if *cliche alert* the 'right offer' came in I don't think Villa would think twice about cashing in - I just don't see who would be willing to pay anything like £18m for him. So, he's going nowhere.
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Sell our 20 goal a season striker. No chance. We need to concentrate on how to supply him. End of chat.
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Sell our 20 goal a season striker. No chance. We need to concentrate on how to supply him. End of chat.
If it were that simple, he'd be playing in the Champions' League, but it's not.
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Bent out, Carroll in, maybe even as a straight swap.
The are pro’s and con’s for every argument but I have a hunch that this would work well.
My preferred formation is a 4231 a la Germany and I think Carroll could make a damn fine Klose.
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Bent out, Carroll in, maybe even as a straight swap.
The are pro’s and con’s for every argument but I have a hunch that this would work well.
My preferred formation is a 4231 a la Germany and I think Carroll could make a damn fine Klose.
I don't think he has the mobility or movement for that role. The Guidetti link isn't a terrible one, though he does have injury problems.
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Bent out, Carroll in, maybe even as a straight swap.
The are pro’s and con’s for every argument but I have a hunch that this would work well.
My preferred formation is a 4231 a la Germany and I think Carroll could make a damn fine Klose.
I don't think he has the mobility or movement for that role. The Guidetti link isn't a terrible one, though he does have injury problems.
How much would Carroll demand in wages though?
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I think we should sell Bent purely for the satisfaction of watching Ozzjim implode.
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Bent out, Carroll in, maybe even as a straight swap.
The are pro’s and con’s for every argument but I have a hunch that this would work well.
My preferred formation is a 4231 a la Germany and I think Carroll could make a damn fine Klose.
I don't think he has the mobility or movement for that role. The Guidetti link isn't a terrible one, though he does have injury problems.
Well Klose is exceptional in that role, but Gomez has also done well and he is known for his limited movement. Besides I have always been impressed by Carroll’s movement and also his pace so I think he’d be a good fit for where Villa are at the moment.
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Selling Bent would probably be the most stupid thing this football club has ever done and I include employing TSM.
Let's say we sell Bent, the first thing that happens is clubs know how much money we have to play with. So if Paul Lambert thought (for arguments sake) Jake Livermore was the player he wanted and was prepared to pay a realistic £5m - the first thing Spurzzz would do would be ask for £7m. So, Lambert improves the squad significantly by signing the 'Bent money' what would be the one thing thing that we would need? - A goalscorer.
I fully support Randy's cost cutting and Lambert has got rid of (or trying to get rid of) the big earners within the club, however, Randy needs to give Lambert the opportunity to build his team. Yes, we use the academy players, yes we bring in the players from the reserve team, but for every Ciaran Clark there is coming through there are also many young players across Europe that we should be trying to invest in. Lambert is clearly trying to do this by hiring this European scout. I think £15-£20m needs to be spent on 3 or 4 players, paid (for football) sensible wages now to compliment the youngsters and to try and ensure we don't have to sell Darren Bent. That said, if we're sitting in a relegation dogfight come Christmas I can see Bent asking to go elsewhere in January.
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Buying a big centre forward to win the ball in the air is absolutely pointless unless you have wingers to cross the ball in. Sell Bent, really? Madness, unless it's a swap for someone even better.
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Buying a big centre forward to win the ball in the air is absolutely pointless unless you have wingers to cross the ball in. Sell Bent, really? Madness, unless it's a swap for someone even better.
Germany manage pretty well and they do not play wingers.
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Selling Bent in my view would be utter madness. We have waited years for a forward who can score 20 goals we should be looking to build a team around him, Bent would be the last player I would sell.
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Buying a big centre forward to win the ball in the air is absolutely pointless unless you have wingers to cross the ball in. Sell Bent, really? Madness, unless it's a swap for someone even better.
Germany manage pretty well and they do not play wingers.
Are we Germany? Gomes also isn't really THAT type of forward either. There is always an exception to the rule I suppose but buying Carroll, rather than Gomez, wouldn't really suit Villa at this point.
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There's been some pretty stupid suggestions from time to time, but this one after one game and no service to Bent beggars belief. ::)
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There's been some pretty stupid suggestions from time to time, but this one after one game and no service to Bent beggars belief. ::)
Stupid? Try using your supreme intelligence to read the whole thread and you'll see it that it specifically says it's not just one game.
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Would we swap Bent for Gomez? I guess we would however the biggest criticism of Bent not getting involved is valid for Gomez as well. Against Holland he had ball possession for 21 seconds in total but scored two goals.
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If he scores on sat,all this talk will die down till the next game when Bent is starved of service and chances.
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Would we swap Bent for Gomez? I guess we would however the biggest criticism of Bent not getting involved is valid for Gomez as well. Against Holland he had ball possession for 21 seconds in total but scored two goals.
No mate, Dante and I were debating the big centre forward thing. Gomez and Bent swap wasn't a serious suggestion.
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Buying a big centre forward to win the ball in the air is absolutely pointless unless you have wingers to cross the ball in. Sell Bent, really? Madness, unless it's a swap for someone even better.
Germany manage pretty well and they do not play wingers.
Are we Germany? Gomes also isn't really THAT type of forward either. There is always an exception to the rule I suppose but buying Carroll, rather than Gomez, wouldn't really suit Villa at this point.
Obviously we’re not germany, but that’s not to say we couldn’t try and replicate their style, especially with Lambert and our head scout’s connections. My point was that having a big guy does not mean you have to play wingers.
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Buying a big centre forward to win the ball in the air is absolutely pointless unless you have wingers to cross the ball in. Sell Bent, really? Madness, unless it's a swap for someone even better.
Germany manage pretty well and they do not play wingers.
Are we Germany? Gomes also isn't really THAT type of forward either. There is always an exception to the rule I suppose but buying Carroll, rather than Gomez, wouldn't really suit Villa at this point.
Obviously we’re not germany, but that’s not to say we couldn’t try and replicate their style, especially with Lambert and our head scout’s connections. My point was that having a big guy does not mean you have to play wingers.
Fair enough mate but now Aftab thinks we're swapping Bent for Gomez!!!
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We’re swapping Bent for Gomez! Awsome, can he bring Ozil, Sschweinstiegger, Lahm, ahhhh, what the hell, the rest of the German squad too. That’ll solve the winger conundrum.
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I think we should sell Bent purely for the satisfaction of watching Ozzjim implode.
Strange comment when I have openly said it might benefit us on this, and other threads over the last couple of days having watched us against West Ham.
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I can see where Martin is coming from with this. Bent thrives on service and supply from wingers. We currently do not provide this. He's an out-and-out goal-scorer. Nothing else. We either need to play to his style or adapt accordingly. I'd like to see us accommodate him. That depends upon a system and formation to provide him with what he needs to play to his strength.
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Sell our 20 goal a season striker. No chance. We need to concentrate on how to supply him. End of chat.
It's a discussion, not a chat. There should be no 'end' to this. FACT! (sic)
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Sell our 20 goal a season striker. No chance. We need to concentrate on how to supply him. End of chat.
It's a discussion, not a chat. There should be no 'end' to this. FACT! (sic)
It's not even the beginning of the chat. 20 goal a season? He's managed that once in the Premier League.
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As far as I can see, in between some posters calling other's opinions 'stupid' or 'madness', a sensible debate almost breaks out about whether or not we could improve as a team by selling Bent and re-investing the money. This does not mean automatically knocking 20 off our 'goals for' column, but some people can't seem to get their head around that. One theory is there'd be another striker who'd score some goals, set some up, help with greater possession in the opposition half and generally make us MORE potent in attack, not less.
I don't remember us scoring 25 less goals the seasons after selling Platt and Yorke, who were both much better players. I bet that confused some of the contributors to this thread.
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This on twitter just
@Agent_ITK: Darren Bent could make a surprise return to #THFC, depends on wage demands. #Spurs #Football #Villa #AVFC
Bloke ha been spot on about few things this summer including RVP to Man Utd weeks ago
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As far as I can see, every now and then a sensible debate breaks out about whether or not we could improve as a team by selling Bent and re-investing the money. This does not mean automatically knocking 20 off our 'goals for' column. One theory is there'd be another striker who'd score some goals, set some up, help with greater possession in the opposition half and generally make us MORE potent in attack, not less.
I don't remember us scoring 25 less goals the seasons after selling Platt and Yorke.
Well, exactly Percy. It obviously all depends on if the money was reinvested, and on whom, but say for example, we got £18m back for Bent, and then spent £10m on a player of the quality of Ba or Cisse at Newcastle, I'd be perfectly happy.
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Be interesting to know how many goals per game we've scored in with Bent and without him since he joined. I'd look it up but am going to watch F on Film4.
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We’re swapping Bent for Gomez! Awsome, can he bring Ozil, Sschweinstiegger, Lahm, ahhhh, what the hell, the rest of the German squad too. That’ll solve the winger conundrum.
I thought I saw a world class fullback getting ready for action at Bodymoor Heath today, but it was just Hutton dressed as Lahm.
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This on twitter just
@Agent_ITK: Darren Bent could make a surprise return to #THFC, depends on wage demands. #Spurs #Football #Villa #AVFC
Bloke ha been spot on about few things this summer including RVP to Man Utd weeks ago
The 'feel good factor' generated by Paul Lamberts arrival would be destroyed immediately if that happened.
For every one tweet that agent ITK gets right, he gets 8 or 9 wrong...
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There is no point in selling Bent as we need a goalscorer. We should be looking for a partner.
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I tweeted for @pickastonvilla, 'Darren Bent returning to Spurs? I've seen things on Doctor Who I find easier to believe.'
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I understand the arguments for selling Bent, I don't think they're stupid. I just think they're wrong.
Apart from anything else, I'd have thought it would be easier to buy in a player who can actually get the ball to Bent in the first place to put it in the net than it would be to buy another striker who can be relied on to do so as much as Bent can.
Do people really think there's a gettable striker out there who, by virtue of his enormous work rate, if we swapped him for Bent, is going to make the difference we need right now? Yes, other strikers would drop back and fetch the ball, or play more of a role in the build up, but to the extent that they'll weigh in with more goals this season than Bent will?
And if such a striker exists, how easy do we reckon it'd be to identify him and buy him in the next 11 days, whilst simultaneously doing a deal to sell Bent?
Strikes me that what we need to work on is getting the ball to Bent in the first place. We managed it under Houllier, and we even managed it occasionally last year.
Forget any idea of selling Bent and using the money to get 4 or 5 players in, too - the major problem is the wage bill. Unless we're going to buy a bunch of league one players, that's going to take a hit doing that kind of dealing.
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I don't think there's a striker in the £20m bracket that's gettable by us that can do what Bent can. Rumours are that Dzeko is on his way to Tottenham, Llorente is on his way to Arsenal, Hernandez is available to loan and Owen and Berbatov are looking for clubs. Even if you take the first two as viable options (which they aren't, as we're nowhere near the top half, let alone Europe) I'd still rather have Bent as he's proven, we already have him and if you give him the service, he'll get you 20 goals a season.
It mystifies me why people are so down on the one genuine star we have in the squad. It's almost like people get amnesia if he doesn't score 2 a game. He's a striker, expect him to do that best when he's actually getting the ball.
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If Bent looked like he was trying, it wouldn't be so bad. However, he ambles around, waiting for the ball to roll into the goal area with only the keeper to beat. N'Zogbia is still blaming McLeish for his own lack of delivery. He is supposed to be providing the 'service' but has a huge chip on his shoulder. I don't think Bent has the same attitude as N'Zogbia, but I just don't think he will become the player we want him to be.
Sell N'Zogbia -yes, but who will buy him?
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I don't think there's a striker in the £20m bracket that's gettable by us that can do what Bent can. Rumours are that Dzeko is on his way to Tottenham, Llorente is on his way to Arsenal, Hernandez is available to loan and Owen and Berbatov are looking for clubs. Even if you take the first two as viable options (which they aren't, as we're nowhere near the top half, let alone Europe) I'd still rather have Bent as he's proven, we already have him and if you give him the service, he'll get you 20 goals a season.
It mystifies me why people are so down on the one genuine star we have in the squad. It's almost like people get amnesia if he doesn't score 2 a game. He's a striker, expect him to do that best when he's actually getting the ball.
Well said.
I also suspect that a few people are thinking we'd sell Bent and get Hernandez or Berbatov in.
We wouldn't. We'd get Kenwynne Jones in, that's the kind of financial reality we're dealing with. Given that, whilst appreciating Bent's weaknesses, I'd much much rather we tried to do something about giving him the ball than selling him and watching the squad devalue even more.
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Berbatov would be good with Bent.
Can't see him going to Spurs, and Lorente would be gooad at Arsenal if it happened.
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If Bent looked like he was trying, it wouldn't be so bad. However, he ambles around, waiting for the ball to roll into the goal area with only the keeper to beat. N'Zogbia is still blaming McLeish for his own lack of delivery. He is supposed to be providing the 'service' but has a huge chip on his shoulder. I don't think Bent has the same attitude as N'Zogbia, but I just don't think he will become the player we want him to be.
Sell N'Zogbia -yes, but who will buy him?
Sunderland would be my bet.
He (N'Zogbia) is one of the biggest disappointments in years. I can't believe the difference between what we see and what Wigan had.
He just looks devoid of any clue as to what to do when he gets the ball. Shocking.
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If Bent looked like he was trying, it wouldn't be so bad. However, he ambles around, waiting for the ball to roll into the goal area with only the keeper to beat. N'Zogbia is still blaming McLeish for his own lack of delivery. He is supposed to be providing the 'service' but has a huge chip on his shoulder. I don't think Bent has the same attitude as N'Zogbia, but I just don't think he will become the player we want him to be.
Sell N'Zogbia -yes, but who will buy him?
Sunderland would be my bet.
He (N'Zogbia) is one of the biggest disappointments in years. I can't believe the difference between what we see and what Wigan had.
He just looks devoid of any clue as to what to do when he gets the ball. Shocking.
What fries me is that if N'Zogbia did what he can do, he would be adored by Villa fans, who lust after any smidgen of creativity after, let's face it, about six years of basic kick-and-rush. Why he preferred to be a superstar at Wigan in the relegation zone and not the confirmed heartbeat at a Villa who could have been resurgent with him is mystifying.
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We wouldn't. We'd get Kenwynne Jones in, that's the kind of financial reality we're dealing with. Given that, whilst appreciating Bent's weaknesses, I'd much much rather we tried to do something about giving him the ball than selling him and watching the squad devalue even more.
Was Jones at Sunderland with Bent?
I almost feel dirty for saying this but if they've played together before I wouldn't mind us taking a punt on Jones now. In theory it should work with Jones winning flick ons for Bent to run on to but I'm slightly nervous by virtue of the fact I've always thought Kenwyne Jones is a waste of space.
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I wonder if it is about confidence.
At Newcastle, he got mortally offended when (that prick) Kinnear called him Insomnia, and just wanted out straight after. at Wigan he was a big fish in a small pond and did well.
For us, he's had a big transfer fee and a bit of expectation, and he's delivered absolutely sod all.
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We wouldn't. We'd get Kenwynne Jones in, that's the kind of financial reality we're dealing with. Given that, whilst appreciating Bent's weaknesses, I'd much much rather we tried to do something about giving him the ball than selling him and watching the squad devalue even more.
Was Jones at Sunderland with Bent?
I almost feel dirty for saying this but if they've played together before I wouldn't mind us taking a punt on Jones now. In theory it should work with Jones winning flick ons for Bent to run on to but I'm slightly nervous by virtue of the fact I've always thought Kenwyne Jones is a waste of space.
I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that - Jones to partner Bent - but I fear that if we sold Bent, we'd end up with Jones as his replacement.
Which makes me start to feel my mouth fill with bile.
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If Bent looked like he was trying, it wouldn't be so bad. However, he ambles around, waiting for the ball to roll into the goal area with only the keeper to beat. N'Zogbia is still blaming McLeish for his own lack of delivery. He is supposed to be providing the 'service' but has a huge chip on his shoulder. I don't think Bent has the same attitude as N'Zogbia, but I just don't think he will become the player we want him to be.
Sell N'Zogbia -yes, but who will buy him?
Sunderland would be my bet.
He (N'Zogbia) is one of the biggest disappointments in years. I can't believe the difference between what we see and what Wigan had.
He just looks devoid of any clue as to what to do when he gets the ball. Shocking.
My mate's a big Wigan fan and was a coach there (under Bruce) before he got cancer. He reckons that what we've got isn't a lot different to what Wigan had, it's just that he shone in a few games in Wigan's usual end of season flourish. Other than that he was a one good game in five kind of player.
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We wouldn't. We'd get Kenwynne Jones in, that's the kind of financial reality we're dealing with. Given that, whilst appreciating Bent's weaknesses, I'd much much rather we tried to do something about giving him the ball than selling him and watching the squad devalue even more.
Was Jones at Sunderland with Bent?
I almost feel dirty for saying this but if they've played together before I wouldn't mind us taking a punt on Jones now. In theory it should work with Jones winning flick ons for Bent to run on to but I'm slightly nervous by virtue of the fact I've always thought Kenwyne Jones is a waste of space.
I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that - Jones to partner Bent - but I fear that if we sold Bent, we'd end up with Jones as his replacement.
Which makes me start to feel my mouth fill with bile.
What makes you think Lambert would buy Jones. None of his signings to date indicate that he'd go down the O'Neill route of paying massively over the odds for average British based players.
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If Bent looked like he was trying, it wouldn't be so bad. However, he ambles around, waiting for the ball to roll into the goal area with only the keeper to beat. N'Zogbia is still blaming McLeish for his own lack of delivery. He is supposed to be providing the 'service' but has a huge chip on his shoulder. I don't think Bent has the same attitude as N'Zogbia, but I just don't think he will become the player we want him to be.
Sell N'Zogbia -yes, but who will buy him?
Sunderland would be my bet.
He (N'Zogbia) is one of the biggest disappointments in years. I can't believe the difference between what we see and what Wigan had.
He just looks devoid of any clue as to what to do when he gets the ball. Shocking.
My mate's a big Wigan fan and was a coach there (under Bruce) before he got cancer. He reckons that what we've got isn't a lot different to what Wigan had, it's just that he shone in a few games in Wigan's usual end of season flourish. Other than that he was a one good game in five kind of player.
We must be due a lot of good games then!!!
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What makes you think Lambert would buy Jones. None of his signings to date indicate that he'd go down the O'Neill route of paying massively over the odds for average British based players.
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2012/08/17/3313310/paul-lambert-declares-admiration-for-jermain-defoe-and?source=breakingnews
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I wonder if it is about confidence.
At Newcastle, he got mortally offended when (that prick) Kinnear called him Insomnia, and just wanted out straight after. at Wigan he was a big fish in a small pond and did well.
For us, he's had a big transfer fee and a bit of expectation, and he's delivered absolutely sod all.
I've genuinely never seen him smile when playing for Aston Villa. I may be wrong but he looks as if he treats pulling on a football kit and getting paid a shedload of cash for it a thankless chore.
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We wouldn't. We'd get Kenwynne Jones in, that's the kind of financial reality we're dealing with. Given that, whilst appreciating Bent's weaknesses, I'd much much rather we tried to do something about giving him the ball than selling him and watching the squad devalue even more.
Was Jones at Sunderland with Bent?
I almost feel dirty for saying this but if they've played together before I wouldn't mind us taking a punt on Jones now. In theory it should work with Jones winning flick ons for Bent to run on to but I'm slightly nervous by virtue of the fact I've always thought Kenwyne Jones is a waste of space.
I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that - Jones to partner Bent - but I fear that if we sold Bent, we'd end up with Jones as his replacement.
Which makes me start to feel my mouth fill with bile.
What makes you think Lambert would buy Jones. None of his signings to date indicate that he'd go down the O'Neill route of paying massively over the odds for average British based players.
He said last week that he thought he was a really good player.
I also doubt he'd have to pay over the odds for him, either, to be honest.
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If Bent looked like he was trying, it wouldn't be so bad. However, he ambles around, waiting for the ball to roll into the goal area with only the keeper to beat. N'Zogbia is still blaming McLeish for his own lack of delivery. He is supposed to be providing the 'service' but has a huge chip on his shoulder. I don't think Bent has the same attitude as N'Zogbia, but I just don't think he will become the player we want him to be.
Sell N'Zogbia -yes, but who will buy him?
Sunderland would be my bet.
He (N'Zogbia) is one of the biggest disappointments in years. I can't believe the difference between what we see and what Wigan had.
He just looks devoid of any clue as to what to do when he gets the ball. Shocking.
My mate's a big Wigan fan and was a coach there (under Bruce) before he got cancer. He reckons that what we've got isn't a lot different to what Wigan had, it's just that he shone in a few games in Wigan's usual end of season flourish. Other than that he was a one good game in five kind of player.
We must be due a lot of good games then!!!
If we come up against a team that does not try to stop him from playing, he can be very good. Arsenal at home last season is a case in point: the Arse attitude being, if you want to play football let's do it, and we will win. Most prem teams found out how to shut Ash down when playing us, and they find Zog easy meat by comparison.
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I don't watch a lot of Stoke City (like Stoke fans, judging by their comments about wonderful football under Pulis) but I do wonder if people have the wrong idea about Kenwyne Jones, like they did about Crouch. I reckon Pulis bought him in as a typical 'get your head on that, son' striker but Jones's game isn't just about that, hence him and Bent working well together. I figure by the time Crouch was bought in to start the long, long process of Stoke stepping out of the dark ages, Jones was frozen out.
Can anyone tell me if that deduction's wrong? Because if we get him as Bent's partner, maybe it's not the end of the world
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All I know about Bent and Jones was Bent saying he is the best partner he has had to play with.
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Get Keane back. A proper footballer who wants to win. No attitude, just go out and win!
Old?? he has years on him yet. Peter Broadbent was 35 when he came to the Villa. Andy Lochead similar. Old duffers who made Villa what it is. Great! Ron Wylie. Derek Dougan, all forgotten now..so s*d off. Keane back NOW!
Stuff the pretence of youth and £100k a week! Just get some goals. Robbie can get them himself and by assist.
Oh dear "I am young and I need time".. we ain't got time! Robbie is the man and desperate to get back to proper football!
Someone tell Lambert to get a proper player in!
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It's a perfectly valid point to raise, and I agree totally with Percy's post.
With regards N'Zogbia and Ireland, I would have said that any other senior pro that Lambert inherited would not be a loss if moved on. The problem is finding buyers.
The difference with Bent is that at least he delivered for half a season. All that tells us is that there may be a case for persevering with him, but if it doesn't work we can be pretty dire.
There is also the point that if we did build a side around Bent, the danger is that opposition only has one problem to solve.
I doubt that we would be able to buy a suitable replacement given our current standing in the pecking order. On the other hand a loan move to buy time would raise interesting possibilities.
If we were, say, to offer Man City the same deal that Spurs had for Adebeyor (75k pw contribution out of the 175k they throw at a player they have no room for), a lot of money would be left over for buying real quality elsewhere. Bent can't be earning that much less than 75k to start with.
That sounds to me like a much better team than we currently have.
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I would have Kevin Phillips back in place of N'Zogbia. Different position, yes, but doesn't care about that. He just comes on and scores goals and would do so until he draws his pension. A proper footballer. Charles is a mard-arse and we need to be rid of him before September.
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So the stats for the previous 2 seasons. I'm pretty sure I got this right. Might give a clue to whether we're better with him or without him.
10/11
before Bent PL22 W5 D7 L10 Goals 24 points 22
after Bent PL16 W7 D5 L4 Goals 24 points 26
11/12
with Bent playing PL22 W6 D9 L7 goals 27 points 27
Bent injured PL16 W1 D8 L7 goals 10 points 11
So the previous 2 seasons we've actually had a full season of 38 with him and also without him.
With him PL38 W13 D14 L11 Goals 51 Pts 53
Without PL38 W6 D15 L17 Goals 34 Pts 33
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If Bent looked like he was trying, it wouldn't be so bad. However, he ambles around, waiting for the ball to roll into the goal area with only the keeper to beat. N'Zogbia is still blaming McLeish for his own lack of delivery. He is supposed to be providing the 'service' but has a huge chip on his shoulder. I don't think Bent has the same attitude as N'Zogbia, but I just don't think he will become the player we want him to be.
Sell N'Zogbia -yes, but who will buy him?
Sunderland would be my bet.
He (N'Zogbia) is one of the biggest disappointments in years. I can't believe the difference between what we see and what Wigan had.
He just looks devoid of any clue as to what to do when he gets the ball. Shocking.
My mate's a big Wigan fan and was a coach there (under Bruce) before he got cancer. He reckons that what we've got isn't a lot different to what Wigan had, it's just that he shone in a few games in Wigan's usual end of season flourish. Other than that he was a one good game in five kind of player.
This has been my point regarding Zog, he is judged by Villa fans on his MOTD flashes but if you ask the guys that watched him every week you get to understand his performances for us. The bloke isnt quite right, we bought a pup.
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If Bent looked like he was trying, it wouldn't be so bad. However, he ambles around, waiting for the ball to roll into the goal area with only the keeper to beat. N'Zogbia is still blaming McLeish for his own lack of delivery. He is supposed to be providing the 'service' but has a huge chip on his shoulder. I don't think Bent has the same attitude as N'Zogbia, but I just don't think he will become the player we want him to be.
Sell N'Zogbia -yes, but who will buy him?
Sunderland would be my bet.
He (N'Zogbia) is one of the biggest disappointments in years. I can't believe the difference between what we see and what Wigan had.
He just looks devoid of any clue as to what to do when he gets the ball. Shocking.
My mate's a big Wigan fan and was a coach there (under Bruce) before he got cancer. He reckons that what we've got isn't a lot different to what Wigan had, it's just that he shone in a few games in Wigan's usual end of season flourish. Other than that he was a one good game in five kind of player.
This has been my point regarding Zog, he is judged by Villa fans on his MOTD flashes but if you ask the guys that watched him every week you get to understand his performances for us. The bloke isnt quite right, we bought a pup.
So buy a player who lights up the pitch! Keane..Robbie Keane!
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So the stats for the previous 2 seasons. I'm pretty sure I got this right. Might give a clue to whether we're better with him or without him.
10/11
before Bent PL22 W5 D7 L10 Goals 24 points 22
after Bent PL16 W7 D5 L4 Goals 24 points 26
11/12
with Bent playing PL22 W6 D9 L7 goals 27 points 27
Bent injured PL16 W1 D8 L7 goals 10 points 11
So the previous 2 seasons we've actually had a full season of 38 with him and also without him.
With him PL38 W13 D14 L11 Goals 51 Pts 53
Without PL38 W6 D15 L17 Goals 34 Pts 33
That is quite a stark contrast isn't it.
If we can get the side right to create for him it is far and away the best solution, just brings into focus the issues with Ireland and NZogbia, which are hard to solve as they are not very saleable.
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So the stats for the previous 2 seasons. I'm pretty sure I got this right. Might give a clue to whether we're better with him or without him.
10/11
before Bent PL22 W5 D7 L10 Goals 24 points 22
after Bent PL16 W7 D5 L4 Goals 24 points 26
11/12
with Bent playing PL22 W6 D9 L7 goals 27 points 27
Bent injured PL16 W1 D8 L7 goals 10 points 11
So the previous 2 seasons we've actually had a full season of 38 with him and also without him.
With him PL38 W13 D14 L11 Goals 51 Pts 53
Without PL38 W6 D15 L17 Goals 34 Pts 33
That is quite a stark contrast isn't it.
If we can get the side right to create for him it is far and away the best solution, just brings into focus the issues with Ireland and NZogbia, which are hard to solve as they are not very saleable.
I was quite surprised. I was expecting it to favour having Bent in the side but not by that much. Contenders for Europe with him, relegated without him. Obviously not quite that straightforward but I found the stats interesting.
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I would have Kevin Phillips back in place of N'Zogbia. Different position, yes, but doesn't care about that. He just comes on and scores goals and would do so until he draws his pension. A proper footballer. Charles is a mard-arse and we need to be rid of him before September.
Kipper Phillips and c. 20 mill in your pocket or Harewood>Heskey.
Tough choice.
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So the stats for the previous 2 seasons. I'm pretty sure I got this right. Might give a clue to whether we're better with him or without him.
10/11
before Bent PL22 W5 D7 L10 Goals 24 points 22
after Bent PL16 W7 D5 L4 Goals 24 points 26
11/12
with Bent playing PL22 W6 D9 L7 goals 27 points 27
Bent injured PL16 W1 D8 L7 goals 10 points 11
So the previous 2 seasons we've actually had a full season of 38 with him and also without him.
With him PL38 W13 D14 L11 Goals 51 Pts 53
Without PL38 W6 D15 L17 Goals 34 Pts 33
That is quite a stark contrast isn't it.
If we can get the side right to create for him it is far and away the best solution, just brings into focus the issues with Ireland and NZogbia, which are hard to solve as they are not very saleable.
I was quite surprised. I was expecting it to favour having Bent in the side but not by that much. Contenders for Europe with him, relegated without him. Obviously not quite that straightforward but I found the stats interesting.
True, but I would also argue that since we've had Bent we've essentially had teams set up around him, and considering that's been over the last two years I would suggest that faith in that style may be misplaced. I would still suggest Bent can actually adapt, but the adaptation should be that way round: Bent to team, not team to Bent.
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Regardless of how the team is set up, over the last 2 years we've done a lot better when Bent is in the team than out of it. The team wasn't set up for him in the 38 games he didn't play and it did a lot worse.
I posted the stats as some folks reckoned we'd score more and do better without him so I was curious how we did over the last 2 years. It's spookily ideal that over that time we played 38 with him in the side and 38 without.
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It is useful, but if your entire strategy is about counter-attacking (under TSM, counter-attacking at best) setting up a goalscorer, it's obviously going to fall down if that goalscorer isn't playing. I would suggest that we need to decrease Bent's share of the goals and, indeed, decrease our reliance on him, particularly if he's missed a season's worth of games in a year and a half.
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Well obviously he hasn't missed that many as he didn't join until Jan 2011. The 2011 stats are the 22 games we played before he signed and the 16 games after he signed (he played in all of them).
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I see, fair enough on that front. Still, injuries must be a concern if you set your entire team and squad around one man. Again, I stress that I'm not saying Bent can't play in this new style, just that he'll have to adapt like everyone else - and on Saturday, by the way, I don't think he did particularly. Work to do all around.
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I agree, he was shit on Saturday.
One other (possibly interesting) stat from the last 2 years. With Bent in the side we scored 51 league goals with Bent scoring 18. Meaning the rest of the side (or OG) scored 33 in those 38 games. In the 38 games he didn't play they scored 34. So the rest of the side scores the same whether he plays or not.
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Which doesn't particularly suggest anything either, as if our side is set up for him in particular you could say they were equally inadequately set up to score with or without him! In many ways the particular player is irrelevant: it's the style and set-up he can encourage if managers get too obsessed with him scoring rather than the team.
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Get Keane back. A proper footballer who wants to win. No attitude, just go out and win!
Old?? he has years on him yet. Peter Broadbent was 35 when he came to the Villa. Andy Lochead similar. Old duffers who made Villa what it is. Great! Ron Wylie. Derek Dougan, all forgotten now..so s*d off. Keane back NOW!
...
Excellent rant, but Andy Lochhead was just short of 29 when he joined us. Interestingly enough that's virtually the same age as Peter Withe when he signed.
Lochhead had scored more top flight goals at a better goals/game ratio too.
Ron Wylie was 25 when he signed, Dougan 23.
Andy Lochhead's wiki entry ends with the line "Lochhead now looks after the sponsors on match days for Burnley as well as being a member of the Dave Clark Five fan club."
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I would rather not sell our star players, but bring in more stars along side them.
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Sell our 20 goal a season striker. No chance. We need to concentrate on how to supply him. End of chat.
It's a discussion, not a chat. There should be no 'end' to this. FACT! (sic)
Apologies Legion. Was slightly wound up after a bad day at work.
I just don't understand why we're discussing selling our £18m pound striker. He has a proven track record of scoring, given the service. Ok, him movement out of the box isnt fantastic, but if we give him the sevice he will score.
This takes me back to summer '98 with the "Should We Sell Yorke" Debate. We should be lucky we've got a goalscorer, and should be concentrating on how to make it easy for him to do his job.
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Sell our 20 goal a season striker. No chance. We need to concentrate on how to supply him. End of chat.
It's a discussion, not a chat. There should be no 'end' to this. FACT! (sic)
Apologies Legion. Was slightly wound up after a bad day at work.
I just don't understand why we're discussing selling our £18m pound striker. He has a proven track record of scoring, given the service.
Because there are other strikers out there who might possibly be just as good at scoring, but who have a better all round game?
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There are probably out there.
But I don't think we have one.
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Sell our 20 goal a season striker. No chance. We need to concentrate on how to supply him. End of chat.
It's a discussion, not a chat. There should be no 'end' to this. FACT! (sic)
Apologies Legion. Was slightly wound up after a bad day at work.
I just don't understand why we're discussing selling our £18m pound striker. He has a proven track record of scoring, given the service.
Because there are other strikers out there who might possibly be just as good at scoring, but who have a better all round game?
Or even less good at scoring, but whose better all-round game is better for the team. So, Bent may score 20 but set up none, but if we sign someone who scores 15 and sets up 5 he's equalled that already, and that's not to include the knock-on benefits of having a player better at build-up in the attack.
Not that I'd sell Bent yet, but I do understand the argument.
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There's a reason Bent hasn't ended up at one of the really big boys, despite his very good goalscoring record, and it's likely to be that, for the want of a better phrase, he's a one trick pony.
However, with the squad we've got, it's an invaluable trick to have and we'll do much better with an appropriately supported Bent than we would with a couple of players instead of him.
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There's a reason Bent hasn't ended up at one of the really big boys, despite his very good goalscoring record, and it's likely to be that, for the want of a better phrase, he's a one trick pony.
However, with the squad we've got, it's an invaluable trick to have and we'll do much better with an appropriately supported Bent than we would with a couple of players instead of him.
Wasn't Ruud Van Nistlerooy a one trick pony? But didnt Utd play to his strengths and look what happened there - goal after goal after goal. Im not directly comparing Bent and RVN in terms of the quality of the player or scoring record but they are/were similar in their style of play no? Goal poachers? dangerous in the box? Need service to get goals? I'm pretty sure Ruud didnt create THAT many on his own ( i could be wrong as i have a shite memory but im sure alot of his goals came from the help of his team mates).
Like I said, I could be wrong and a number of you could probably put me in my place but what im trying to get at is that Bent requires the service and he will find the net. People saying we should sell him and replace with someone else are not looking at the fact that really, our midfielders are to blame for not penertrating the opposition defence enough to make it count.
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It's not so much about creating goals for yourself as it is about what you contribute aside from movement and finishing. Van Nistelrooy contributed more than Bent tends to, and even he was sold because Ferguson (you know, that guy who wins everything) said "apart from scoring goals, he doesn't do much".
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It's not so much about creating goals for yourself as it is about what you contribute aside from movement and finishing. Van Nistelrooy contributed more than Bent tends to, and even he was sold because Ferguson (you know, that guy who wins everything) said "apart from scoring goals, he doesn't do much".
Yes but in that time he was scoring goals, they were winning trophies. Fergie got rid of him as he was a disruption in the dressing room.
I can remember one occasion where Ruud made a goal for himself as in he picked up the ball near the half way line and then went on an amazing run and scored. It was at OT but cant remember who it was against but generally his goals came from the services of his team mates.
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Doesn't change the fact that his build-up play was better than Bent's. Also, United at that time in that Premier League were probably more capable of carrying a passenger in attack than we are in the Premier League of today.
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Because there are other strikers out there who might possibly be just as good at scoring, but who have a better all round game?
In the list of all-time Premier League goalscorers, Bent has 100 goals. 11 ahead of him is someone who has demonstrated in recent years that there is much more to his game than goals and that he can play a deeper role than just a goalhanger...
Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you Emile Heskey!
Just saying...
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Because there are other strikers out there who might possibly be just as good at scoring, but who have a better all round game?
In the list of all-time Premier League goalscorers, Bent has 100 goals. 11 ahead of him is someone who has demonstrated in recent years that there is much more to his game than goals and that he can play a deeper role than just a goalhanger...
Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you Emile Heskey!
Just saying...
Emile was at it for the best part of 20 years!
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Sell our 20 goal a season striker. No chance. We need to concentrate on how to supply him. End of chat.
It's a discussion, not a chat. There should be no 'end' to this. FACT! (sic)
Apologies Legion. Was slightly wound up after a bad day at work.
I just don't understand why we're discussing selling our £18m pound striker. He has a proven track record of scoring, given the service.
Because there are other strikers out there who might possibly be just as good at scoring, but who have a better all round game?
Drogba and Rooney have around the same goal output as Bent and offer more to the team. So if we could find one of them I'd agree with you, but if not.......
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I don't think it's as simple as that, John. I would like a player who maybe scores a few less than Bent but contributes much more to the team, as that would result in more goals overall. It's not a case of Drogba/Rooney level or you just get a goal-tapper and that's it. There are all-round forwards who aren't at that exalted level who might still suit us better (again though, I stress I'm not in favour of the sale of Bent as I think he needs to be given the chance to adjust).
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I don't think it's as simple as that, John. I would like a player who maybe scores a few less than Bent but contributes much more to the team, as that would result in more goals overall. It's not a case of Drogba/Rooney level or you just get a goal-tapper and that's it. There are all-round forwards who aren't at that exalted level who might still suit us better (again though, I stress I'm not in favour of the sale of Bent as I think he needs to be given the chance to adjust).
I'd say that's exactly the type of player we need to have playing alongside him. When played as a striker Gabby is good for 10-15 a season, plus contributes more all round, so he may well be the answer.
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I don't think it's as simple as that, John. I would like a player who maybe scores a few less than Bent but contributes much more to the team, as that would result in more goals overall. It's not a case of Drogba/Rooney level or you just get a goal-tapper and that's it. There are all-round forwards who aren't at that exalted level who might still suit us better (again though, I stress I'm not in favour of the sale of Bent as I think he needs to be given the chance to adjust).
I'd say that's exactly the type of player we need to have playing alongside him. When played as a striker Gabby is good for 10-15 a season, plus contributes more all round, so he may well be the answer.
But if you put that player in alongside you're sacrificing a creative midfielder, which forces you to play even more narrowly than we did on the weekend. That is of course unless that player drifts wide, drops back or both, one of which Gabby can do. However, we'd still find it tough because we'd have a passenger in attack, ie the same situation as the weekend. Everyone needs to contribute, it's no good just to goal-hang and demand supply as the rest of the team toil to break through opposition massed ranks.
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But if you put that player in alongside you're sacrificing a creative midfielder, which forces you to play even more narrowly than we did on the weekend. That is of course unless that player drifts wide, drops back or both, one of which Gabby can do. However, we'd still find it tough because we'd have a passenger in attack, ie the same situation as the weekend. Everyone needs to contribute, it's no good just to goal-hang and demand supply as the rest of the team toil to break through opposition massed ranks.
I think that's an unfair summary of Bent's contribution.
For me it's a tactical problem for Lambert to overcome, with the guaranteed prize of having a player up top who WILL finish the moves off once he gets it right. As I see it we play a narrow midfield and Bent and Gabby upfront. The width comes from the FBs and Gabby pulling wide, so then it's a matter of that tight midfield 4 retaining the ball and getting it to players in dangerous areas.
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It's not an unfair assessment of his contribution on the weekend. I'm not saying that's the best he can do, but he needs to improve on that. He needs to contribute more or the spaces he thrives in just won't open up as we'll be so easy to defend against. If your whole tactic is about setting up one player, that'll be very predictable to stop.
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It's not an unfair assessment of his contribution on the weekend. I'm not saying that's the best he can do, but he needs to improve on that. He needs to contribute more or the spaces he thrives in just won't open up as we'll be so easy to defend against. If your whole tactic is about setting up one player, that'll be very predictable to stop.
I don't the tactic is only to set up one player. I just dont think the players are committing themselves further up the pitch to provide a 2nd option so it will always look like we are trying to set Bent up. One of either Holman, Ireland or NZogbia needs to get their backsides into gear and support Bent when we are attacking to provide a different option.
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Get Keane back. A proper footballer who wants to win. No attitude, just go out and win!
Old?? he has years on him yet. Peter Broadbent was 35 when he came to the Villa. Andy Lochead similar. Old duffers who made Villa what it is. Great! Ron Wylie. Derek Dougan, all forgotten now..so s*d off. Keane back NOW!
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Excellent rant, but Andy Lochhead was just short of 29 when he joined us. Interestingly enough that's virtually the same age as Peter Withe when he signed.
Lochhead had scored more top flight goals at a better goals/game ratio too.
Ron Wylie was 25 when he signed, Dougan 23.
Andy Lochhead's wiki entry ends with the line "Lochhead now looks after the sponsors on match days for Burnley as well as being a member of the Dave Clark Five fan club."
They were all bl**dy old when I was attending regularly. Age does funny things to your memory but they were all great in their day.
Anyway 30 is the new 25. and me, I'm going on 17 when it comes to the Villa!
Keane is a must imo! and he wants to play!
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I'm sure he will score many goals this season so I would keep him even if it means he will have some games and you wont even know he's on the pitch.
We do need goals from more of the other players though and hopefully this will happen this season. It's still only 1 game in so I'm not too worried yet, I do trust our boss to be learning himself about our players over the next few months and will be bright enough to change things accordingly.
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One match in and we've lost our heads...
Should we sell DB? Well - if you're not going to supply him why not?
Otherwise perhaps we would be better thinking about those twin definitions of 'strolling players' Messers Ireland and N'Zog. Aren't they meant to be our creative engine? Beating men or playing in the killer pass? As it is we get little back heels and flips from one - and bullocking runs rounded off by a toe poke from the other. Hardly the stuff to set any centre forwards heart a'racing.
Or we could. of course. give the man paid to coach the team another week or two to see what he thinks. But no ... no ... that way madness lies.
Andy Carroll?
Robbie Keane? ... well alright as long as he brings his missus...
A N Other?
It's quite plain to me that everyone on this thread is overlooking one glaring fact in our downfall. The loss of our attacking mojo. The departure of the man known to some as GOD - but to us loyal villans simply known as ......... Emile Bosco Harewood Heskey. The glue that made our team tick... I mean shit.
Roll on Saturday. UTV
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So the stats for the previous 2 seasons. I'm pretty sure I got this right. Might give a clue to whether we're better with him or without him.
10/11
before Bent PL22 W5 D7 L10 Goals 24 points 22
after Bent PL16 W7 D5 L4 Goals 24 points 26
11/12
with Bent playing PL22 W6 D9 L7 goals 27 points 27
Bent injured PL16 W1 D8 L7 goals 10 points 11
So the previous 2 seasons we've actually had a full season of 38 with him and also without him.
With him PL38 W13 D14 L11 Goals 51 Pts 53
Without PL38 W6 D15 L17 Goals 34 Pts 33
That is quite a stark contrast isn't it.
If we can get the side right to create for him it is far and away the best solution, just brings into focus the issues with Ireland and NZogbia, which are hard to solve as they are not very saleable.
It is a big difference, but I’m not sure it proves anything as anyone who condones selling Bent is probably justifying it by saying we use the extra money to buy X, or Y and Z. It’s impossible to prove how much the “without” statistics would improve with an extra 20m spent on the team, but I think it is fair to say that they would.
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Sell our 20 goal a season striker. No chance. We need to concentrate on how to supply him. End of chat.
It's a discussion, not a chat. There should be no 'end' to this. FACT! (sic)
Apologies Legion. Was slightly wound up after a bad day at work.
I just don't understand why we're discussing selling our £18m pound striker. He has a proven track record of scoring, given the service.
Because there are other strikers out there who might possibly be just as good at scoring, but who have a better all round game?
Can you name a striker within our reach with a goalscoring record comparable to Rooney and Drogba?
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It’s impossible to prove how much the “without” statistics would improve with an extra 20m spent on the team, but I think it is fair to say that they would.
I think you're beyond ambitious if you think we'd get £20m for Bent at the current time. £10m is probably closer to what anyone would be willing to pay and you can't get much of a replacement for that.
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Sell our 20 goal a season striker. No chance. We need to concentrate on how to supply him. End of chat.
It's a discussion, not a chat. There should be no 'end' to this. FACT! (sic)
Apologies Legion. Was slightly wound up after a bad day at work.
I just don't understand why we're discussing selling our £18m pound striker. He has a proven track record of scoring, given the service.
Because there are other strikers out there who might possibly be just as good at scoring, but who have a better all round game?
Can you name a striker within our reach with a goalscoring record comparable to Rooney and Drogba?
Probably but, but then I'd never heard of Demba Ba or Cisse before hand either.
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It’s impossible to prove how much the “without” statistics would improve with an extra 20m spent on the team, but I think it is fair to say that they would.
I think you're beyond ambitious if you think we'd get £20m for Bent at the current time. £10m is probably closer to what anyone would be willing to pay and you can't get much of a replacement for that.
You’re almost certainly right there, I pretty much plucked a nice round number in order to question the validity of the statistics previously posted.
The current value of Bent is a big reason to justify not selling Bent right now. I personally condone selling Bent on the basis that his transfer money could give us/lambert more freedom to create the team’s style however, it might be wise to sell him in January (or next summer) when he’d fetch a better price.
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You really think Bent is worth 4 or 5 mill less than Fletcher?
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You really think Bent is worth 4 or 5 mill less than Fletcher?
You've got to factor in the O'Neill factor. We'd probably get £15m off Spurs for Bent, or £26m off Sunderland.
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Some of it is about momentum too.
Fletcher has just come off the back of a very good season whereas Bent has spent the last eight months watching from the stand.
And as we know all too well, MON will through silly money at anyone.
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Darren Bent is not the problem.
The tosspots playing just behind him are the problem.
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Some of it is about momentum too.
Fletcher has just come off the back of a very good season whereas Bent has spent the last eight months watching from the stand.
And as we know all too well, MON will through silly money at anyone.
And despite that Fletcher scored a massive 3 more goals than Bent last season.
Even allowing for the MON factor, if both players were sold in the next week Bent would not go for less money than Fletcher. Although it doesn't really matter as i'd be stunned if we sold Bent this summer.
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I'm still not sure where (even if someone were in favour of selling Bent) who they are planning on selling him to.
I can't see him going abroad and in the Premier League they only teams I could realistically see him signing for would be Liverpool or QPR. And I can't imagine either of them writing us a cheque for £20m any time soon.
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I think Bent has to be one of the great "what if" signings of recent times.
What if we'd signed him in 08/09 (around the time of the infamous Sandra Redknapp comment) We signed Heskey instead.
What if we'd signed him for 10m in summer 2009 especially as we signed Downing for 12m who was crocked and was shite anyway when he did play that season.
I'm convinced he would've fired us into the champions league one of those seasons as the way we played under MON with crosses being fired in all the time would've been perfect for his game.
Instead we sign him fighting relegation and with our creative wide players about to leave.
He'll still score goals this season just as he did last but it won't be as good as if we'd sign him in 2009.
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I think Bent has to be one of the great "what if" signings of recent times.
What if we'd signed him in 08/09 (around the time of the infamous Sandra Redknapp comment) We signed Heskey instead.
What if we'd signed him for 10m in summer 2009 especially as we signed Downing for 12m who was crocked and was shite anyway when he did play that season.
I'm convinced he would've fired us into the champions league one of those seasons as the way we played under MON with crosses being fired in all the time would've been perfect for his game.
Instead we sign him fighting relegation and with our creative wide players about to leave.
He'll still score goals this season just as he did last but it won't be as good as if we'd sign him in 2009.
I was desperate for us to sign him that season. He was the missing link.
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Not sure Bent will ever score 20 a season with us. Just a gut feel. Might be better to sell a reinvest.
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If we can't fit Bent into our style of play he's made pretty much redundant up front on his own. You could could count on one hand the touches of the ball he got at West Ham on Saturday. However, if he was playing for someone else and we were looking for a striker, we'd all be wishing for Bent to sign, but we'd also know that we wouldn't be able to afford him. It's a hard one.
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No, No and bloody well NO.
We can't seriously consider selling our most expensive and arguably best player. He's a proven goalscorer and better than most English strikers and arguably any in the Premier League, his scoring record suggests that anyway.
We just need to allow our new style of football to come to fruition and all that passing just needs to make it a little further forward for him to bang them in.
We have desperately needed a centre forward that can score for years, to want to sell the best one we've had would be ludicrous.
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No, No and bloody well NO.
We can't seriously consider selling our most expensive and arguably best player. He's a proven goalscorer and better than most English strikers and arguably any in the Premier League, his scoring record suggests that anyway.
We just need to allow our new style of football to come to fruition and all that passing just needs to make it a little further forward for him to bang them in.
We have desperately needed a centre forward that can score for years, to want to sell the best one we've had would be ludicrous.
Finally, some sense.
Darren Bent will score a lot of goals this season, of that I'm convinced.
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When Bent was injured last season there were some posts claiming that this was a blessing in disguise because his absence would enable other players to blossom. Well, that didn't exactly work out.
Secondly, though Bent is a limited player, the claim that he is useless when not scoring goals is an exaggeration. On Saturday he seemed to be the only one of our attacking players capable of producing intelligent off-the-ball movement. We need more of that, not less.
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Just give him the ammo and he'll score the goals. Nice passes round the central midfield are a one way ticket to the bottom six.
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Just give him the ammo and he'll score the goals. Nice passes round the central midfield are a one way ticket to the bottom six.
Bent has played his best football in counter attacking teams, so in a sense you’re right that a possession based game will not particularly help Bent. If lambert pursues a possession based game them one day I can see Bent getting marginalised. However, during this transitional period he will be vital in getting us scrappy goals, hopefully raising his value so if/when we do sell we get the maximum price.
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I think we'd be lucky to get £10m for him right now. His contribution is limited but right now he's the best hope we have so we should be doing everything to provide him with the type of service he wants.
Shocking to hear today that we've only scored 10 goals since Bent got injured last season.
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Selling Bent = relegation.
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Selling Bent = relegation.
Correct, we need to strengthen the midfield and defence.
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We got to get he ball to him. And we need a couple of players who can do that
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Selling Bent = relegation.
Playing Bent every week = relegation.
He was the worst player on the pitch today bar none.
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Selling Bent = relegation.
Playing Bent every week = relegation.
He was the worst player on the pitch today bar none.
Bar Bannan,Given,Clark,NZogbia etc etc
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We got to get he ball to him. And we need a couple of players who can do that
That is a cop out, he makes no effort to contribute and get involved with the team, he doesn't move into space, he does absolutely nothing, he can't expect everything on a plate, Evertons defenders were not once under the slight bit of pressure.
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Selling Bent = relegation.
Playing Bent every week = relegation.
He was the worst player on the pitch today bar none.
Bar Bannan,Given,Clark,NZogbia etc etc
They were all better than Bent, he did nothing, they at least tried and contributed to us being bad he didn't even do that.
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We got to get he ball to him. And we need a couple of players who can do that
That is a cop out, he makes no effort to contribute and get involved with the team, he doesn't move into space, he does absolutely nothing, he can't expect everything on a plate, Evertons defenders were not once under the slight bit of pressure.
More to do with the ball being consistently down the other end of the field than any lack of movement from Bent though, he'd be more dangerous if we had a winger who doesn't panic when he gets inside or in the vicinity of the penalty area.
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We got to get he ball to him. And we need a couple of players who can do that
That is a cop out, he makes no effort to contribute and get involved with the team, he doesn't move into space, he does absolutely nothing, he can't expect everything on a plate, Evertons defenders were not once under the slight bit of pressure.
More to do with the ball being consistently down the other end of the field than any lack of movement from Bent though, he'd be more dangerous if we had a winger who doesn't panic when he gets inside or in the vicinity of the penalty area.
Think about it, the ball just doesn't stick up front at all, Everton would get the ball to Fellani or Jelavic who would then put pressure on our defence and enable Everyon to build pressure and attack, because Bent can't hold, keep or pass the ball it just keeps coming back, thus meaning the ball isn't in the attacking third.
He is a luxury player that would score 20 goals for an Arsenal or Man U, but he will cause us more problems than the opposition for me.
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We got to get he ball to him. And we need a couple of players who can do that
That is a cop out, he makes no effort to contribute and get involved with the team, he doesn't move into space, he does absolutely nothing, he can't expect everything on a plate, Evertons defenders were not once under the slight bit of pressure.
His game is to score goals and he has consistently done that in his career, he needs help and support, he's an out and out finisher that's his job that's what he does, he does his stuff up the other end
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We got to get he ball to him. And we need a couple of players who can do that
That is a cop out, he makes no effort to contribute and get involved with the team, he doesn't move into space, he does absolutely nothing, he can't expect everything on a plate, Evertons defenders were not once under the slight bit of pressure.
His game is to score goals and he has consistently done that in his career, he needs help and support, he's an out and out finisher that's his job that's what he does, he does his stuff up the other end
[/quote you are both right, he is the most infuriating player with a special talent. If we can not access that talent then there is no point. I believe it is too late to do anything other than go with Bent now, we really dont have any other option.
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We got to get he ball to him. And we need a couple of players who can do that
Yeah Hawk I'm not defending him I ain't happy but he is not our worse player and things have changed for the worse since he joined, I think he'd be scoring a lot more regular if we still had Young Downing and Milner
That is a cop out, he makes no effort to contribute and get involved with the team, he doesn't move into space, he does absolutely nothing, he can't expect everything on a plate, Evertons defenders were not once under the slight bit of pressure.
His game is to score goals and he has consistently done that in his career, he needs help and support, he's an out and out finisher that's his job that's what he does, he does his stuff up the other end
[/quote you are both right, he is the most infuriating player with a special talent. If we can not access that talent then there is no point. I believe it is too late to do anything other than go with Bent now, we really dont have any other option.
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It will be interesting to see once Bent leaves where fans would place him in the list of favourite/best forwards they've seen down Villa Park.
I accept he's playing in one of the poorest Villa Teams of the last 15 years but I dunno I struggle to warm to him really. If he's not scoring goals then he hardly gets into the game or even touches the ball. Even his goals are penalties or tap ins.
Forwards I'd place over him in the list would be Yorke obviously, Dublin, JPA, Carew and Gabby.
Now some of those may not be as prolific as Bent but they had more to their game, likes of JPA, Yorke and Carew would score different types of goals and contribute outside the area and Gabby's scored in some of our best wins over the last 5 years and on a good day, his pace causes defences havoc.
As I've said before, Bent would've been very good in an MON team when very often we just needed a reliable finishing touch to all the Young crosses but in this limited team where more graft and workrate are required, he's pretty redundant as he dosen't create for himself.
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I can't see any chance of us selling him soon. None of the top 6 clubs would want him, and no-one else could afford him.
He is a pretty limited footballer, but his goal record is amazing. It was good last season when he was pretty crap and as a team we were worse.
He can play as the loan forward, but only in a team that can really play the ball through midfield. So I think it has to be two up top. The problem is, who to play with him. I think he'd be best with a target man. But that does have consequences for the way the rest of the team is set up.
I do think Lambert will have the balls and intelligence to sort it out though. That's what I'm reassuring myself with
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Bent is the type of player that needs service...he's not about to change his game and he doesnt have the ability to create his own chances. He may be a proven goalscorer but sometimes a player isnt the right fit in a team, so either change our style of play to suit him and bring in players who can provide him with the service he needs...or sell him. It really is that simple.
Personally, I'd get a swap deal on the go for Carroll and spend £10 on Sturridge who looks like he doesnt have a role to play at Chelski. I can also see Gabby playing well with Carroll, with the likes of Weiman and Fonz going out on loan for some much needed game time.
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I can't see Rodgers wanting Bent. He wants to play 433, and Bent isn't good enough on the ball to play in that role for a team that plays the Rodgers style
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Bent is the type of player that needs service...he's not about to change his game and he doesnt have the ability to create his own chances. He may be a proven goalscorer but sometimes a player isnt the right fit in a team, so either change our style of play to suit him and bring in players who can provide him with the service he needs...or sell him. It really is that simple.
Spot on. Perhaps though, for the good of the side and to raise funds quickly, it might have to be the latter. I really wish Randy would dig on and get us some decent players to get Bent firing 20 goals this season.
The way we are at the moment though, is like playing with 10 men when Bents in the side. He doesn't touch the ball. Offers nothing, no threat. I'd rather have a striker who'll come for the ball and try and dictate things. Or someone physical up top who can hold it up and bring others in to play. I mean it's no exaggeration to say that Heskey could have been just as effective as Bent's been in the two games so far.
If a club like QPR or Liverpool (probably the only options) wanted to spunk 15 million, I'd take it. Sign an experienced forward who knows this league (Keane?) and someone from abroad with promise. Or if poss a loan signing (Guidetti maybe).
I'd love us to find the new Jelavic to be honest. Class player.
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In that case...any club wanting to pay £15m for Bent should be enough to complete a move for Carroll (considering they apparently still owe some of the Downing transfer fee), and Randy needs to pull out £10m from somewhere to get Sturridge. That would sort the forward line, but funds are still needed for at least another defender and midfielder unless we get a couple of loans or freebies.
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The big worry will be come january. What sort of position we'll be in. 2 years ago Randy got desperate and spunked 18 mill on Bent and he kept us up.
The way january went and this window thus far, suggests that he can't afford to do that again. If we're in the shit we may well be unable to find an inspirational signing from somewhere to pull us out. I'm bricking it already boys.
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I dont think its anything to do with transfer fees or not being able to afford them...when was that last time you heard a billionaire hasnt got a spare £20 million to spunk up the wall? The problem is that Randy let the wages spiral out of control and we're still in that period of bringing the club back as into operating as a viable business. The general rule of thumb dictates that expensive players come with expensive wages, so unless some of the other shite on the books are gone then dont expect any expensive marquee signings coming in unless it involves some kind of swap deal to reduce/replace a wage...even a loan or freebie would increase the wage bill if players like Warnock and Hutton arent involved in the deals.
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Assuming your right, what still amazes me is that Randy and the Board let the wage situation got so out of control and to such a degree that the austerity measures have lasted more than three years with still no light at the end of the tunnel in the way of available funds.
What the feck were they actually doing while MON was here?
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Exactly. They were either assuming we'd get into the champions league. Which would have been very stupid. Or they were prepared to bankroll an unsustainable business model, and something hwppened to change randy's mind -i e. randy suffered in the financial crisis and felt he couldn't justify subsidising us to the same degree, or he fell out of love with villa to a degree
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If we can't sell Warnock and Hutton. Could we not come to some agreement with them to tear up their contract? It'll cost, but we'd work something out. They'll find clubs far easier if they can move for nowt, and probably get a selling on fee. No one seems to want either of them right now, so it's gonna be 70-80k a week shat out for two reserves.
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If we can't sell Warnock and Hutton. Could we not come to some agreement with them to tear up their contract? It'll cost, but we'd work something out. They'll find clubs far easier if they can move for nowt, and probably get a selling on fee. No one seems to want either of them right now, so it's gonna be 70-80k a week shat out for two reserves.
I think Warnock and Hutton and a load of players from around the leagues will move in the last few days of this window when buyers/sellers
stop waiting for the cheapest option and panic buy.
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The only possible route for Bent to go is QPR. No one else would want him for football reasons or for the price we will expect. I think QPR are desperate enough and rich enough and hopefully stupid enough to pay us £20m.
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It will be interesting to see once Bent leaves where fans would place him in the list of favourite/best forwards they've seen down Villa Park.
At the moment he is just about ahead of Baros.
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Hypothetical honest question, would it surprise any of us if we sold bent for say 20 million to QPR and then didn't replace him?
If so I think there's a chance Lambert could walk, heaven forbid.
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If selling Bent allow us to buy two excellent strikers with the money I would do it. I think Villa always do well when they have 2 or 3 good strikers playing together.
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If we sold Bent and bought two players say, Carroll and Defoe we would instantly turn into a top 10 team, whereas now, with Bent we are around 12th
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After watching the first couple of games, i really don't think we're 12th with this squad.
Having said that, i'd bite your hand off if we got Carroll and Defoe for Darren Bent.
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Hypothetical honest question, would it surprise any of us if we sold bent for say 20 million to QPR and then didn't replace him?
If so I think there's a chance Lambert could walk, heaven forbid.
After two matches? I don't think so.
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Hypothetical honest question, would it surprise any of us if we sold bent for say 20 million to QPR and then didn't replace him?
If so I think there's a chance Lambert could walk, heaven forbid.
After two matches? I don't think so.
Yeah you're probably right.
I just worry that if Randy handles the coming week in the same ham fisted manner he's handled the last 3 years we might get an awful shock coming to us.
He does the right thing by getting rid of TSM the day after the season ends, puts out a press release that i couldn't have written better myself and then does his classic disappearing act leaving us dreadfully unprepared to start the year for the 3rd season running. Smoke and mirrors unless we invest in this Manager.
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Huge task (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19382437)
But Lambert hinted he may bring in more players before the transfer window shuts on 31 August.
"Owner Randy Lerner, myself and chief executive Paul Faulkner will sit and see what's going to happen," the Scot said.
"If something comes available and I think it's worthwhile, then you can look at it.
"It's a really young side and sometimes you need a little bit of help."
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Bent going anywhere in next week is a remote possibility unless we pick the phone up and call Tony Fernandez. In that case it won't be £20M more like £15M. This is unlikely to buy us a quality defensive midfielder and 20 goal striker. So we should stick with Bent and hope Randy makes funds available to get at lease one player in by Friday.
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Huge task (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19382437)
But Lambert hinted he may bring in more players before the transfer window shuts on 31 August.
"Owner Randy Lerner, myself and chief executive Paul Faulkner will sit and see what's going to happen," the Scot said.
"If something comes available and I think it's worthwhile, then you can look at it.
"It's a really young side and sometimes you need a little bit of help."
Inspiring.
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For me Bent represents the classic "chicken and egg" debate. Is he the solution or the problem?
Last week at West Ham we played some really decent stuff early on but had no cutting edge which - it can be argued - was either due the midfield failing to create chances for Bent or Bent failing to provide the movement for the midfield to play the ball into the space that this movement would create. Yesterday the ball retention was sacrificed to play a strike partner/play to Bent's strengths and with four in midfield we were completely unable to compete with a very good side.
Personally I think Bent is a really good player in a certain system but we don't have the players, or the resource to buy the players to provide that system. I also think that Ireland, Delph, Holman, El Ahmadi and Bannan are the sort of players who can provide ammunition to players with good movement, the pass from Holman to Wiemann yesterday highlighted this, Bent would never make the run that Wiemann made (although he may have scored if found in that position). This then begs the question that had that sort of movement been available in the first half hour last week would we have scored the goals that our early possession probably deserved?.
For me a player in the Defoe mould would be the solution, he makes runs that our current midfielders would benefit from and he also gets on the end of tap-ins in the box, he would also contribute more in respect of overall involvement in the game and I think that with the current funding available to the manager it is a case of doing the best with what is realistically available which, for me, would be to replace Bent with player better suited to the limitations of our current squad.
It would be a shame to see him go as it would, in my opinion, signal yet further how far we have regressed over the past three years but sadly we are where we are and we are clearly not going to re-sign Young, Downing and Milner so I feel it is probably in the best interests of all involved (he can't enjoy playing football where he gets about two touches per game!!) if we cash in now.
Right now Paul Lambert is the most important consideration for me, he must be allowed to build a team and a style of play best suited to the available resources, he will surely be able to see the polar opposites of last week compared to this week and will recognise that he either needs a lot of new faces to play a style that suits Bent or a striker of the kind that suits the players that he has got. I can only assume that has he hasn't bought in the players to do the former that he hasn't got the cash available, so I would reluctantly settle for the latter.
My overriding feeling at the moment is that we are such a poor side- the players are devoid of any confidence- that it is going to be a massive task to stay up this year (I am almost at the stage where I feel we may have to go down to gain the necessary momentum of winning games to allow us to progress in a forward direction).
I think that if Lambert stays here for three years, irrespective of what happens along the way, the team - and the club - will be in a better place and the football will be worth watching again. I believe/hope he will make a decision on Bent during the next day or two and then develop the style of play according to whether Bent is here or not.
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If we can't sell Warnock and Hutton. Could we not come to some agreement with them to tear up their contract? It'll cost, but we'd work something out. They'll find clubs far easier if they can move for nowt, and probably get a selling on fee. No one seems to want either of them right now, so it's gonna be 70-80k a week shat out for two reserves.
Can Prem players still go on loan to Championship sides after the window closes? I think Beye, Gary Gardner and wee Barry have all done that in the (fairly) recent past.
That being the case, it will come down to how desperate we are to shift them off the wage bill -and how much of a percentage of their wage we still pay.
I reckon if any clubs had the inclination to do a permanent deal for either they'd have been long gone by now.
I also wouldn't be completely stunned to see N'Zog and Bannan on the way out - depending on who we bring in. N'Zog on loan to Wigwam seeing as they've just lost Moses wouldn't be completely out of the question.
No doubt we'd prefer a permanent deal, but sometimes it comes down to the least worst option. It hasn't worked out for him here, and that 60k per week coluld be better utilised elsewhere. If it's a loan with a view to a permanent deal - and he plays himself into something approximating form there- we might not take too much of a hit. We paid £9 million for him, I'd be happy to get back £6/7 million.
Bannan I'd like to see stay, but he apparently wanted out from about the second half of last season and -in truth- he hasn't done anything of note despite being given numerous chances in 2012. He might be a cracking player in a lower division though, so maybe we should hedge our bets and hold onto him, just in case...
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For me a player in the Defoe mould would be the solution, he makes runs that our current midfielders would benefit from and he also gets on the end of tap-ins in the box, he would also contribute more in respect of overall involvement in the game and I think that with the current funding available to the manager it is a case of doing the best with what is realistically available which, for me, would be to replace Bent with player better suited to the limitations of our current squad.
Defoe is exactly the sort of player that got us in to this mess in the first place.
If we were to sign him his transfer fee would be overpriced because he's an established Premier League player and as he's 30 in a couple of months time he would view this as being his last chance to get a big contract before he retires so his wages will be as high as they'll ever get and after he finishes a 3 or 4 year contract he'll have very little resale value. If we paid him £60k per week, a conservative estimate I reckon given we're apparently paying Bent £80k, then a four year contract would cost us £12.5m in wages alone. He could therefore easily cost us £25-£30m with the transfer fee included. Not worth it in my opinion.
But given all that I'm actually surprised Sunderland aren't sniffing round him - he's the classic MON signing - buy for now, worry about the future later.
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KG, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Bannan wanted to leave McLeish's Villa - doesn't really matter how many chances he was going to be given, it's just not his football. Lambert appears to rate him and be willing to give him chances in teams playing the way suited to his game.
That said, he was very poor yesterday. His off-the-ball movement was fine (if a little lacking in sharpness), but he was back to his hitting aimless 60-yard balls routine yesterday, a really bad habit he's picked up especially over the last year. He needs to play closer to the goal, to be fair - deep in midfield is not his game - but he still did not do well at all, looking far too eager to actually make any meaningful in-roads.
Zog, I think, is just a bit of a hopeless case. He seems to have Baros head-down syndrome, and passing to him is just giving the ball away as he'll run down a cul-de-sac and lose it somehow. I wouldn't start Bannan at the moment, but I wouldn't have Zog anywhere near the first team I'm afraid.
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If we sold Bent and bought two players say, Carroll and Defoe we would instantly turn into a top 10 team, whereas now, with Bent we are around 12th
12th?! Thats very optimistic of you Shrek!
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If we sold Bent and bought two players say, Carroll and Defoe we would instantly turn into a top 10 team, whereas now, with Bent we are around 12th
12th?! Thats very optimistic of you Shrek!
If we don't have optimism, what's the point?
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For me a player in the Defoe mould would be the solution, he makes runs that our current midfielders would benefit from and he also gets on the end of tap-ins in the box, he would also contribute more in respect of overall involvement in the game and I think that with the current funding available to the manager it is a case of doing the best with what is realistically available which, for me, would be to replace Bent with player better suited to the limitations of our current squad.
Defoe is exactly the sort of player that got us in to this mess in the first place.
If we were to sign him his transfer fee would be overpriced because he's an established Premier League player and as he's 30 in a couple of months time he would view this as being his last chance to get a big contract before he retires so his wages will be as high as they'll ever get and after he finishes a 3 or 4 year contract he'll have very little resale value. If we paid him £60k per week, a conservative estimate I reckon given we're apparently paying Bent £80k, then a four year contract would cost us £12.5m in wages alone. He could therefore easily cost us £25-£30m with the transfer fee included. Not worth it in my opinion.
But given all that I'm actually surprised Sunderland aren't sniffing round him - he's the classic MON signing - buy for now, worry about the future later.
I totally take your point on Defoe and did say a player in the Defoe mould. Having said that I am only suggesting that Defoe would be a better alternative to Bent, who also is probably close to his last big deal, the cost would be positive/neutral as we would probably pay less to buy Defoe than we would get for Bent and he would be on less money, I just think that he - or a player of his type - would be the ideal solution at the moment, given our resources, or lack of!!
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How about this for an idea....
In Lambert - we trust.
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Why has no one signed Jordan Rhodes? Is he worth going for?
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£6m would secure the services of Jordan Rhodes...for me it would be a risk worth taking, but again you have the big question of supply. He's a natural goalscorer but dont know enough about him to judge his work rate off the ball, but as a goal poacher and finisher he's easily as good as Bent from what I've seen.
Players like Defoe and Sturridge can create their own chances, players like Carroll can hold the ball up bringing other players into the game...unfortunately Bent cant/wont do either of those things very well, but they are more than capable of putting the ball in the back of the net from 6yds like Bent does. The more I think about it, the more it points to selling Bent and bringing in more technically gifted players or hardworking players.
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Why has no one signed Jordan Rhodes? Is he worth going for?
If he was worth it somebody would have. It's a combination of professional scouts and management thinking he can't immediately make the step up and his club placing a mental valuation on him. At say 2m he'd probably offer good value as a project with a lot of potential.
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Keane. Robbie Keane!! He knows how to control the field.
The rest are journeymen compared to his undoubted, and demonstrated, talent.
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When we bought Bent we had the players to supply him and the goals he scored saved us from relegation, it appears that Lambert doesn't want to play with orthodox wingers which makes us play narrow, with that in mind i cannot see Bent getting the space to run in to. He is a very good player in the right set up but not the player we need right now.
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I agree Robbo.
Bent will still score, probably when Gabby comes back and maybe plays wide for a bit as he set up a few of Bent's goals early last season.
Last season he were shite and think he had 9 league goals by the time he was injured so I'd say he'd have reached 15 league goals.
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Its sod's law isn't it. Under MON we had the likes of Milner, Young and Downing as the supply route and played a game based on getting wide and crossing it in for Carew to knock down for anyone following in. Bent would have thrived on that and we could have got him when we got Heskey and were challenging Arsenal for 4th place. For the first time in years we have a prolific predator in Bent but little to no supply. It really is frustrating.
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Why can't Lambert play to Bent's strengths? It's not like were free scoring is it? Personally I'm right pissed off we let Johnson go to bloody Sunderland
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Keane. Robbie Keane!! He knows how to control the field.
The rest are journeymen compared to his undoubted, and demonstrated, talent.
Brian, we should have one out of our way to keep Keane last season, he and his 2 goals against wolves kept us up, both from outside the area. I think i am right , but if i am not somebody will put me straight: 3 goals in 2 seasons scored from outside the box, 2 Robbie Keane v wolves and the strike from KEA last wkend, maybe i have missed 1 but i doubt it. Fecking piss poor. We need a Scholes type player to take a shot on sight instead of trying to walk the ball in the net.
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The managers philosophy seems to be a more continental style of play with players interchanging positions as the game evolves,i cannot for the life of me see where Bent who is a finisher and nothing more will get the service from.Lambert favours a big lump leading the line who can hold the ball and put himself about,Benty is not that type of player.
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Keane. Robbie Keane!! He knows how to control the field.
The rest are journeymen compared to his undoubted, and demonstrated, talent.
Brian, we should have one out of our way to keep Keane last season, he and his 2 goals against wolves kept us up, both from outside the area. I think i am right , but if i am not somebody will put me straight: 3 goals in 2 seasons scored from outside the box, 2 Robbie Keane v wolves and the strike from KEA last wkend, maybe i have missed 1 but i doubt it. Fecking piss poor. We need a Scholes type player to take a shot on sight instead of trying to walk the ball in the net.
I'm sure Petrov got a couple last season, but yes we do need more goals from midfield.
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The more the game on saturday went on the more I kept thinking maybe we should sell Bent but problem is who would buy him? I'm a big DB fan and would love him to be a success like he has been at other clubs but we just dont have the quality around him to supply him so he can make the difference.
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Keane. Robbie Keane!! He knows how to control the field.
The rest are journeymen compared to his undoubted, and demonstrated, talent.
Brian, we should have one out of our way to keep Keane last season, he and his 2 goals against wolves kept us up, both from outside the area. I think i am right , but if i am not somebody will put me straight: 3 goals in 2 seasons scored from outside the box, 2 Robbie Keane v wolves and the strike from KEA last wkend, maybe i have missed 1 but i doubt it. Fecking piss poor. We need a Scholes type player to take a shot on sight instead of trying to walk the ball in the net.
I know Keane only played a handful of games for us but he was my player of the season. We'd have been relegated without him.
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Keane. Robbie Keane!! He knows how to control the field.
The rest are journeymen compared to his undoubted, and demonstrated, talent.
Brian, we should have one out of our way to keep Keane last season, he and his 2 goals against wolves kept us up, both from outside the area. I think i am right , but if i am not somebody will put me straight: 3 goals in 2 seasons scored from outside the box, 2 Robbie Keane v wolves and the strike from KEA last wkend, maybe i have missed 1 but i doubt it. Fecking piss poor. We need a Scholes type player to take a shot on sight instead of trying to walk the ball in the net.
I know Keane only played a handful of games for us but he was my player of the season. We'd have been relegated without him.
Indeed, the long-distance goal against Wolves was brilliant and crucial.
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Gabby's contribution in goals and assists from August to November was more important than other players in terms of our points total. It was only his poor form after his injury that prevents people realising/acknowledging this
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Gabby's contribution in goals and assists from August to November was more important than other players in terms of our points total. It was only his poor form after his injury that prevents people realising/acknowledging this
It's a decent point. Also, people blaming this on him being 'out of position' - he played the inverted left-winger thing all through that time as well, including against Blackburn.
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Gabby's contribution in goals and assists from August to November was more important than other players in terms of our points total. It was only his poor form after his injury that prevents people realising/acknowledging this
It's a decent point. Also, people blaming this on him being 'out of position' - he played the inverted left-winger thing all through that time as well, including against Blackburn.
When was the last time gabby performed consistantly through the season? People always seem to stick up for him as he had an injury but he seems like the only player that seems to become crap after getting injured. Other players seem to over come their injuries and regain their form.
Gabby's best days, imo, are past him unfortunately and cant see him getting any better. I still hope he proves me wrong so I can eat a nice slice of humble pie.
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I think Gabby could still be very good for us with a manager who actually believes in attacking. If we were to sign Benteke, I would see the case for starting him over Bent as the man up front on his own once he's settled in, with support from Gabby and/or Weimann.
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Genk want more for Benteke..rejected first bid, allegedly.
There is always...the other fella.
Has anyone told PL about him?
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Gabby's contribution in goals and assists from August to November was more important than other players in terms of our points total. It was only his poor form after his injury that prevents people realising/acknowledging this
Gabby set up four goal for Bent in this period aswell, three from crosses against Norwich and Wigan and he also got fouled for the penalty Bent scored against WBA.
I do think his return will be crucial to getting our attacking game going even if he was incredibly poor after xmas last season.
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When is Gabby back?
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There's a 2 week international break after the Newcastle game so Gabby should be in the squad for the Swansea game.
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Fuug it,,can we get one of these? any one of these?
&feature=relmfu
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Andrei Arshavin is being given away by the Arse. Wages is the thing. Is is plain as a pikestaff he is not happy there. Kids settled and wife happy in UK. He is a very exciting player and would fit in nicely, if Randy would ante-up. I think he'd be a crowd puller and a hero with the Holte End.
£40k a week ain't gonna do it.
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I think i am right , but if i am not somebody will put me straight: 3 goals in 2 seasons scored from outside the box, 2 Robbie Keane v wolves and the strike from KEA last wkend, maybe i have missed 1 but i doubt it.
By my reckoning it's just the six that you missed. And considering how few goals we scored last season, eight from outside the box is pretty good going.
Petrov vs Everton, Bolton and Sunderland
Weimann vs Stoke
Gabby vs Bristol Rovers
Clark vs Spurs
And while we're at it, I think 'two seasons' is a bit disingenuous. One season and three matches.
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Andrei Arshavin is being given away by the Arse. Wages is the thing. Is is plain as a pikestaff he is not happy there. Kids settled and wife happy in UK. He is a very exciting player and would fit in nicely, if Randy would ante-up. I think he'd be a crowd puller and a hero with the Holte End.
£40k a week ain't gonna do it.
I think he'd be a fucking disaster.
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Fair enough. We have until tomorrow and it is back to 'glorious draws' if we can manage them.
Andrei Arshavin is being given away by the Arse. Wages is the thing. Is is plain as a pikestaff he is not happy there. Kids settled and wife happy in UK. He is a very exciting player and would fit in nicely, if Randy would ante-up. I think he'd be a crowd puller and a hero with the Holte End.
£40k a week ain't gonna do it.
I think he'd be a fucking disaster.