Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Ivo Stas on April 23, 2012, 03:36:07 PM
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I know there are plenty of relegation threads already but I want to ask something a bit different. I started going to Villa Park in 1990 so have no memories of our last relegation in the 80s. However, I do remember four seasons when we could have been relegated and I would like to hear other fans memories of those seasons and how they think they compare to this season.
1990-91 under Josef Venglos we finished 17th (out of 20) on 41 points. It sounds like a skin of the teeth survival but actually only two teams (Derby and Sunderland) were relegated in that season. My memory is of a good team (runners up the year before) containing Spink, McGrath, Platt and Daley having a bad season under a manager learning English.
1994-95 under Brian Little (replaced Ron Atkinson in November) we finished 18th (out of 22) with 48 points. This was a very narrow escape because four teams went down and we stayed up by just three points. My memory is of Ron Atkinson being harshly sacked and all his players (e.g Dean Saunders) suddenly seeming past their sell-by-date under Little.
2002-03 under Graham Taylor we finished 16th (out of 20) with 45 points. This, in my opion, was also a close call as we stayed up by just three points (and West Ham went down with half the England team in their squad). I seem to recall a crucial 2-2 draw away at West Ham towards the end of the season.
2005-06 under David O'Leary we finished 16th (out of 20) on 42 points. However we finished 8 points clear of the relegation spots in the end and Small Heath went down (under Steve Bruce) which cheered us all up.
Those wanting to see the back of McLeish will be interested to know that after each of these seasons the manager left, except in 1994-95 when Brian Little had only just arrived and was just starting to build a great team (that was the season we signed Ian Taylor).
Okay, memories please and are we in more or less trouble now than we survived back then..?
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Venglos tried to bring new ideas, I do belive he was ahead of his time, If we did go down then this is possibly the worst season for entertainment out of all of them and I remember them all
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Actually the home humilation against Man City was particurlarly bad with David White getting 4 goals
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Big Fat Ron spent more time in the TV studio than at Villa Park or Bodymoor Heath toward the end of his reign, I seem to remember he was commentating on a Tuesday night midweek cup game & was fired the following morning.
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Big Fat Ron spent more time in the TV studio than at Villa Park or Bodymoor Heath toward the end of his reign, I seem to remember he was commentating on a Tuesday night midweek cup game & was fired the following morning.
I remember him going to commentate on the 94 World Cup, and us thinking "who's he going to buy us who he scouts out there?".
John Fashanu
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1988-89 was the worst - listening to Liverpool v West Ham on the radio after we had finished our season praying that West Ham, who had gone on a sudden good run from nowhere, didn't beat them and send us down.
As it happened we only stayed ahead of Boro who went down because we got a dying seconds equaliser against them at Villa Park. If that hadn't gone in our memories of Sir Graham, and the history of our club, could have been very different.
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Big Fat Ron spent more time in the TV studio than at Villa Park or Bodymoor Heath toward the end of his reign, I seem to remember he was commentating on a Tuesday night midweek cup game & was fired the following morning.
He couldnt have been, because we played Wimbledon away the night before he was sacked. Lost 4-3 after being 3-1 up. Leonhardsen with a last minute winner
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Big Fat Ron spent more time in the TV studio than at Villa Park or Bodymoor Heath toward the end of his reign, I seem to remember he was commentating on a Tuesday night midweek cup game & was fired the following morning.
I remember him going to commentate on the 94 World Cup, and us thinking "who's he going to buy us who he scouts out there?".
John Fashanu
Not to mention only adding Nil Lamptey and Phil King.
That Summer of poor transfers did for him in the end.
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Big Fat Ron spent more time in the TV studio than at Villa Park or Bodymoor Heath toward the end of his reign, I seem to remember he was commentating on a Tuesday night midweek cup game & was fired the following morning.
I remember him going to commentate on the 94 World Cup, and us thinking "who's he going to buy us who he scouts out there?".
John Fashanu
It's an 18 year old ITK, but I heard that he was the first manager to approach Klinsmann out there, but Doug wouldn't OK the wages (he wanted £12k a week and we'd only pay £10k a week) and he eventually went to Spurs.
Others may be able to dispel that if untrue.
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Big Fat Ron spent more time in the TV studio than at Villa Park or Bodymoor Heath toward the end of his reign, I seem to remember he was commentating on a Tuesday night midweek cup game & was fired the following morning.
He couldnt have been, because we played Wimbledon away the night before he was sacked. Lost 4-3 after being 3-1 up. Leonhardsen with a last minute winner
He was commentating on Barcelona v Manchester United the night after we lost to la Coruna.
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Not sure John, nothing in his autobiography about it.
He did say that he thought Fashanu was great business and that Lamptey would wow everybody, he also refused to accept the squad were getting on a bit, hence not getting more quality in.
Apparently the money was there, but he believed he didn't need it.
He also reckoned Ellis was always forthcoming with transfer funds, the main problem he had was when Ellis would butt in on transfers and nearly fuck them up.
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Not sure John, nothing in his autobiography about it.
He did say that he thought Fashanu was great business and that Lamptey would wow everybody, he also refused to accept the squad were getting on a bit, hence not getting more quality in.
Apparently the money was there, but he believed he didn't need it.
He says he was told that a couple of weeks before getting sacked as well. Doug offed money, but he wanted to wait until summer.
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Big Fat Ron spent more time in the TV studio than at Villa Park or Bodymoor Heath toward the end of his reign, I seem to remember he was commentating on a Tuesday night midweek cup game & was fired the following morning.
He couldnt have been, because we played Wimbledon away the night before he was sacked. Lost 4-3 after being 3-1 up. Leonhardsen with a last minute winner
He was commentating on Barcelona v Manchester United the night after we lost to la Coruna.
Correct, and as we left the ground after the la Coruna game, my brother turned to me and said if he turns up on TV tomorrow then he should be sacked.
I also met Doug's wife in Geneva a few weeks later, she said that Ron didn't even go into the dressing room after the game, he jumped into a taxi for the airport and that Doug stayed up all night unable to sleep, pondering what to do.
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I know there are plenty of relegation threads already but I want to ask something a bit different. I started going to Villa Park in 1990 so have no memories of our last relegation in the 80s. However, I do remember four seasons when we could have been relegated and I would like to hear other fans memories of those seasons and how they think they compare to this season.
1990-91 under Josef Venglos we finished 17th (out of 20) on 41 points. It sounds like a skin of the teeth survival but actually only two teams (Derby and Sunderland) were relegated in that season. My memory is of a good team (runners up the year before) containing Spink, McGrath, Platt and Daley having a bad season under a manager learning English.
1994-95 under Brian Little (replaced Ron Atkinson in November) we finished 18th (out of 22) with 48 points. This was a very narrow escape because four teams went down and we stayed up by just three points. My memory is of Ron Atkinson being harshly sacked and all his players (e.g Dean Saunders) suddenly seeming past their sell-by-date under Little.
2002-03 under Graham Taylor we finished 16th (out of 20) with 45 points. This, in my opion, was also a close call as we stayed up by just three points (and West Ham went down with half the England team in their squad). I seem to recall a crucial 2-2 draw away at West Ham towards the end of the season.
2005-06 under David O'Leary we finished 16th (out of 20) on 42 points. However we finished 8 points clear of the relegation spots in the end and Small Heath went down (under you-know-who) which cheered us all up.
Those wanting to see the back of McLeish will be interested to know that after each of these seasons the manager left, except in 1994-95 when Brian Little had only just arrived and was just starting to build a great team (that was the season we signed Ian Taylor).
Okay, memories please and are we in more or less trouble now than we survived back then..?
Steve Bruce
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Actually the home humilation against Man City was particurlarly bad with David White getting 4 goals
A very low point for us, BFR's team getting on and his stubborness to change them reminds me of MON... but for me the most worrying season (before this one) has been 2003 when we couldn't buy a goal before Allback scored a few vital goals.
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but for me the most worrying season (before this one) has been 2003 when we couldn't buy a goal before Allback scored a few vital goals.
Weimann seems to be the 2012 remix of Allback.
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I remember being well and truly gutted when BFR got the sack, Still one of my favorite managers, liked in his autobiography when he said that Ellis knew the stand was called the doug ellis stand because he was behind it
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There was a school of thought that said that Fashanu was only signed so he could be closer to Central TV and his Gladiators commitments.
The writing was on the wall for Atkinson after we'd won the League Cup. We hardly won a game for the rest of the season, and started the next in really bad form.
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I remember being well and truly gutted when BFR got the sack, Still one of my favorite managers, liked in his autobiography when he said that Ellis knew the stand was called the doug ellis stand because he was behind it
There was a myth flying around (that I wish was true) about a board meeting, Ellis says
'Next point of business, the naming of the new stand...... i'll just pop outside for a bit.'
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This season seems an awful lot like the 02-03 season where there was an acceptance that we were in decline having had period from 1995-2001 if consistently looking like we could avhieve things. DOug had pulled the purse strings on JG and SGT had come in and in fairness produced results like the two against SH that season.
The Marcus Alback winner agsinst Sunderland was a massive goal for us and I only hope we get a similar massive goal from soemone tomorrow night to finally nail us as being safe.
Common theme though was the apathy and generla acceptnace of us being also rans which for a proud club like ours is very hard to take as a supporter
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This season seems an awful lot like the 02-03 season where there was an acceptance that we were in decline having had period from 1995-2001 if consistently looking like we could avhieve things. DOug had pulled the purse strings on JG and SGT had come in and in fairness produced results like the two against SH that season.
The Marcus Alback winner agsinst Sunderland was a massive goal for us and I only hope we get a similar massive goal from soemone tomorrow night to finally nail us as being safe.
Common theme though was the apathy and generla acceptnace of us being also rans which for a proud club like ours is very hard to take as a supporter
If we are safe, I wonder if Mcleish will address the crowd after the Spurs match.
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If we are safe by the Spurs game I think he might cop for a shitstorm from the home support.
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As it happened we only stayed ahead of Boro who went down because we got a dying seconds equaliser against them at Villa Park. If that hadn't gone in our memories of Sir Graham, and the history of our club, could have been very different.
Stuart Gray?
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If we are safe by the Spurs game I think he might cop for a shitstorm from the home support.
I remember empty season ticket books being thrown at David O'Leary. Considering what we're hearing about people not renewing they might as well lob their season cards.
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Big Fat Ron spent more time in the TV studio than at Villa Park or Bodymoor Heath toward the end of his reign, I seem to remember he was commentating on a Tuesday night midweek cup game & was fired the following morning.
I remember him going to commentate on the 94 World Cup, and us thinking "who's he going to buy us who he scouts out there?".
John Fashanu
Not to mention only adding Nil Lamptey and Phil King.
That Summer of poor transfers did for him in the end.
Phil King was ace:
"You beauty!"
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As it happened we only stayed ahead of Boro who went down because we got a dying seconds equaliser against them at Villa Park. If that hadn't gone in our memories of Sir Graham, and the history of our club, could have been very different.
Stuart Gray?
Walmley, I think you are right that it was Stuart Gray scrambling one in at the Holte in the dying seconds of the game. I had travelled back from Paris overnight for this one (night train then National Express from Victoria ) and was out on my feet after a couple of beers. A few days later we lost 2-1 at home to Southampton and I honestly thought we were doomed.
As Richard E says above, sir GT's time here could have been cut short at the end of that season.
For me 2002-03 was the biggest disappointment of the above because we had had a few decent seasons on the trot, and suddenly we were very, very average (at best). It hurt to see Graham Taylor past his best and being abused by Villa fans, and Blues also finished above us in their first season back - I think I read that year they had only finished above us 16 times in their history, but not too sure of that fact.
2005-6 probably generated the most apathy at the club, but even this could not match the misery of 1986-7, which was too shit to be true. To this day I have annual Easter Monday nightmares about getting thrashed 3-0 by an an utterly shit Charlton at the dung heap that is Selhurst Park.
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This is a worse Villa team than any of those named above. I think most of us had faith in GT, even though it went sour (at least we did when he was appointed). DOL was poor but not as bad at the current incumbent. BFR, never a dull moment, whereas now, just dull.
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I also think the consequences of getting relegated are far worse now than 20 years ago.
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I remember in the summer of 90,and we didn't buy a single player,though we bought Stas later on,and this was after the 89/90 season,which was a great team effort,but it would be hard for a lot of those players to recapture that form again.
If we would have added to the squad,we may have had another chance of being near the top,in the end,Platt pretty much kept us up single handed.
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If we are safe by the Spurs game I think he might cop for a shitstorm from the home support.
I remember empty season ticket books being thrown at David O'Leary. Considering what we're hearing about people not renewing they might as well lob their season cards.
Sir Graham got boo'd god knows what would happen to mcleish
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Big Fat Ron spent more time in the TV studio than at Villa Park or Bodymoor Heath toward the end of his reign, I seem to remember he was commentating on a Tuesday night midweek cup game & was fired the following morning.
I remember him going to commentate on the 94 World Cup, and us thinking "who's he going to buy us who he scouts out there?".
John Fashanu
Not to mention only adding Nil Lamptey and Phil King.
That Summer of poor transfers did for him in the end.
Phil King was ace:
"You beauty!"
That's put a smile on my face. What a great night that was.
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I do try to be positive...
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I remember some of the final home game after-match highlights from those seasons.
O'Leary hiding behind the youth team and Graham Taylor having the decency and balls to get a microphone and address the fans.
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I remember some of the final home game after-match highlights from those seasons.
O'Leary hiding behind the youth team and Graham Taylor having the decency and balls to get a microphone and address the fans.
So do I. I posted a video of O'Leary's 'lap of shame' on Youtube. I'll see if I can find it. The reaction to Sir GTs announcement from certain sections of the crowd infuriated me to the point of exploding.
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Coward:
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Big Fat Ron spent more time in the TV studio than at Villa Park or Bodymoor Heath toward the end of his reign, I seem to remember he was commentating on a Tuesday night midweek cup game & was fired the following morning.
He couldnt have been, because we played Wimbledon away the night before he was sacked. Lost 4-3 after being 3-1 up. Leonhardsen with a last minute winner
He was commentating on Barcelona v Manchester United the night after we lost to la Coruna.
Correct, and as we left the ground after the la Coruna game, my brother turned to me and said if he turns up on TV tomorrow then he should be sacked.
I also met Doug's wife in Geneva a few weeks later, she said that Ron didn't even go into the dressing room after the game, he jumped into a taxi for the airport and that Doug stayed up all night unable to sleep, pondering what to do.
We lost to Trabzonspor - it was 1994. Ugo scored went out on away goals.
LaCoruna was 1993.
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I still think that SGT mark 2 team was the worst, just for the absolute awfulness of the midfield players we had: Kinsella, Gudjonsson, Leonhardsen. This team's still well above that lot. I think Barry was the quickest player in that midfield! Plus we'd been 6th when he took over the year before. Would have been much better if we'd been left with the memories.
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I remember all those near miss seasons very clearly, that Wimbledon away loss in 1994/95 which led to Big Rons sacking was a sickener, I was out drinking in Cov that night, when we arrived at the boozer we were 3-1 up, then it was going to the car checking scores until we had lost 4-3, I was choked and my Sky Blue mates had a field day.
However none of those campaigns felt as bad as this season, not even close.
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Well if this season is bad, imagine what the next one will bring...
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Big Fat Ron spent more time in the TV studio than at Villa Park or Bodymoor Heath toward the end of his reign, I seem to remember he was commentating on a Tuesday night midweek cup game & was fired the following morning.
I remember him going to commentate on the 94 World Cup, and us thinking "who's he going to buy us who he scouts out there?".
John Fashanu
Not to mention only adding Nil Lamptey and Phil King.
That Summer of poor transfers did for him in the end.
Phil King was ace:
"You beauty!"
That's put a smile on my face. What a great night that was.
watching that, Mrs W thought I was watching a porno ;)
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Well if this season is bad, imagine what the next one will bring...
I dread to think.
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Well if this season is bad, imagine what the next one will bring...
Disaster if the same bloke is our manager.
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02/03 was awful just for the two SHA games.
Strange season though, we won 10 home games actually which we've only equaled once in 07/08. Just couldn't buy an away win that season.
This season is similar to 05/06 imo. Dire football, unpopular manager but we'll probably just about scrape survival. At least back then we had hope back then things would dramatically improve with Lerner and MON coming in. Don't get that feeling now.
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Dr Jo have us that first Inter victory- as enjoyable a night has I've had at VP. Beating a side made up from the best players of the German WC winning side and a fair chunk of the Italian national side too. The ideas he tried to introduce such as warm downs and the like have become the standard now.
We did have a horrible run after our defeat to Wimbledon away in the cup, but part of me felt he needed at least one more season. Ron took over though and gave us some of the best football seen at VP.
There were definitely nerves jangling after we got turned over 0-4 at home to Arsenal in Easter 1995, and lost to a late goal v Leeds not long after. We looked well and truly in the shit. Seem to recall that we beat Ipswich with a late, late og- which is just as well, as during that particular period we didn't look like we had a goal in us. Sir Brian admitted that he probably moved on the likes of Richardson and Houghton too soon, and we could have done with their experience for at least a few more months.
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Seem to recall that we beat Ipswich with a late, late og- which is just as well,
I went to that, one of the worst games I have ever seen settled by a bizarre og from a lad named Chris Swailes, there was no-one near him and he headed it over his own keeper. It was probably the only effort on goal all game.
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2005-6 probably generated the most apathy at the club, but even this could not match the misery of 1986-7, which was too shit to be true. To this day I have annual Easter Monday nightmares about getting thrashed 3-0 by an an utterly shit Charlton at the dung heap that is Selhurst Park.
I figured we were in trouble after Spurs (or more like Clive Allen) beat us 3-0 on the opening day at home. Despite every pundit saying we were too good to go down.
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The funny thing about 94-95 was after the poor results and BFR getting sacked, Brian came in and after stabilising results in the lead up to Christmas from recollection we then knocked out about 7 wins from 9 and had moved comfortably into the top half. Then came the Leicester 4-4 (a night that has scarred me ever since) and we fell apart at the seams only staying up as a result of that late win at Ipswich.
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2005-06 under David O'Leary we finished 16th (out of 20) on 42 points. However we finished 8 points clear of the relegation spots in the end and Small Heath went down (under you-know-who) which cheered us all up.
This was the season I started following football properly when I was about 10 years old. I still credit Gary Cahill and his acrobatics against the 'noses for cementing my obsession with the Villa.
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You talk like that was ages ago. I've got one of those hard-disk recorders and it still has the MOTD highlights with that goal and game.
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It feels like a long time ago.
That's the only time (apart from this season) that I've genuinely thought we could go down and Cahill's goal still ranks as my favourite Villa goal ever.
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It feels like a long time ago cos ye two are young lads while the sexwhale is a bit more... well, seasoned.
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1988-89 was the worst - listening to Liverpool v West Ham on the radio after we had finished our season praying that West Ham, who had gone on a sudden good run from nowhere, didn't beat them and send us down.
As it happened we only stayed ahead of Boro who went down because we got a dying seconds equaliser against them at Villa Park. If that hadn't gone in our memories of Sir Graham, and the history of our club, could have been very different.
Villa could of actually been relegated on the final day of the season if we had lost to Coventry at home.
As it was, an excellent volley (described in the press as being "the type of goal you see on the continent") from David Platt helped us to a 1-1 draw. That season saw some absolutely dismal defending notably the home defeat against Arsenal and a game later in the season (actual opposition eludes me atm) which prompted Taylor to state that the Villa team on that day was the most inept display from any team he had put on a football pitch.
You would have to say that 1988-89 was probably the joint worst since relegation, along with the disappointment of the Venglos season and this season in 2nd place.
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1988-89 was the worst - listening to Liverpool v West Ham on the radio after we had finished our season praying that West Ham, who had gone on a sudden good run from nowhere, didn't beat them and send us down.
As it happened we only stayed ahead of Boro who went down because we got a dying seconds equaliser against them at Villa Park. If that hadn't gone in our memories of Sir Graham, and the history of our club, could have been very different.
Villa could of actually been relegated on the final day of the season if we had lost to Coventry at home.
As it was, an excellent volley (described in the press as being "the type of goal you see on the continent") from David Platt helped us to a 1-1 draw. That season saw some absolutely dismal defending notably the home defeat against Arsenal and a game later in the season (actual opposition eludes me atm) which prompted Taylor to state that the Villa team on that day was the most inept display from any team he had put on a football pitch.
Forest away.
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The Ipswich away game was amazing, One minute there were 2 lads fighting each other then they were literally kissing each other after a bizairre own goal
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In 2005-06 season I remember beating Sunderland 1-0 with a Marcus Allback goal, which is the most relieved I've felt by a Villa goal ever. I was physically shaking with relief when it went in. Also they'd missed an open goal earlier in the match, I think it was a bloke called Kyle, but I could be wrong.
I don't remember feeling as nervous in 2002/03.
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Wasn't Marcus Allback 1-0 v Sunderland in 2003?
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Wasn't Marcus Allback 1-0 v Sunderland in 2003?
Was Marcus Allback
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Even withstanding a poor injury record in the second half of this season I feel this is the worse season for performance from the players and managers. Not just the low points haul, but the poor level of entertainment especially given we have a better calibre of player now, Bent, Gabby, N'Zog, Ireland, Petrov, Dunne, Given, Jenas, Albrighton etc., this is a far better squad than in those other seasons.
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Even withstanding a poor injury record in the second half of this season I feel this is the worse season for performance from the players and managers. Not just the low points haul, but the poor level of entertainment especially given we have a better calibre of player now, Bent, Gabby, N'Zog, Ireland, Petrov, Dunne, Given, Jenas, Albrighton etc., this is a far better squad than in those other seasons.
From my point of view the big difference is the lack of hope and expectation.
Even during our last relegation season I had hope that we would survive then an expectation that we would bounce back again.
This season I have niether.
I don't honestly think we will go down, but thats more to do with the couple below us who have harder run ins.
But I also have no expectation or hope that things will get better, that for me is how I see it and thats the legacy that the board / owners / manager have left us with
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I started thinking back over the seasons in question to compare them but it depressed me so I gave up.
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If we are safe by the Spurs game I think he might cop for a shitstorm from the home support.
I remember empty season ticket books being thrown at David O'Leary. Considering what we're hearing about people not renewing they might as well lob their season cards.
Sir Graham got boo'd god knows what would happen to mcleish
felt awkward when he clapped at us on Saturday
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1988-89 was the worst - listening to Liverpool v West Ham on the radio after we had finished our season praying that West Ham, who had gone on a sudden good run from nowhere, didn't beat them and send us down.
As it happened we only stayed ahead of Boro who went down because we got a dying seconds equaliser against them at Villa Park. If that hadn't gone in our memories of Sir Graham, and the history of our club, could have been very different.
Villa could of actually been relegated on the final day of the season if we had lost to Coventry at home.
As it was, an excellent volley (described in the press as being "the type of goal you see on the continent") from David Platt helped us to a 1-1 draw. That season saw some absolutely dismal defending notably the home defeat against Arsenal and a game later in the season (actual opposition eludes me atm) which prompted Taylor to state that the Villa team on that day was the most inept display from any team he had put on a football pitch.
You would have to say that 1988-89 was probably the joint worst since relegation, along with the disappointment of the Venglos season and this season in 2nd place.
I sat through a copy of the old 88/89 season video a while back. Don't remember it at the time but Spink seemed responsible for a lot of our goals conceded, or if not directly responsible, he certainly could've done better. From about the midway point of that season onwards.
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It feels like a long time ago cos ye two are young lads while the sexwhale is a bit more... well, seasoned.
Feels weird to think that it was seven years ago though.
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1988-89 was a miserable season. My rabbit died for god's sake. We put 6 past Ipswich in the Littlewoods Cup the following night though, so that cheered me up a bit.
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Hammered the B-lose twice too. Beat eventual champions Arsenal at their place. And had a forward who was the envy of the league. It was nervy, but not completely unexpected that a team that had just come up the year before might struggle in their first season back.
This season is just arse.
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Big Fat Ron spent more time in the TV studio than at Villa Park or Bodymoor Heath toward the end of his reign, I seem to remember he was commentating on a Tuesday night midweek cup game & was fired the following morning.
He couldnt have been, because we played Wimbledon away the night before he was sacked. Lost 4-3 after being 3-1 up. Leonhardsen with a last minute winner
I was there. Disheartened, but still very surprised by the sacking at the time.
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After last night I'd say this one is the worst. Could have a worse conclusion as well.