Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: martyn ellis on April 16, 2012, 01:51:48 PM
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31 March 2012: Aston Villa v Chelsea. 50-50 ball near the touchline between Agbonlahor and Terry with the score at 2-2. Agbonlahor comes away cleanly with the ball, linesman does not flag; Referee Lee Mason acknowledges Terry's appeal from the ground by giving a free kick to Chelsea, who attack, get a corner and score.
7 April 2012: Chelsea v Wigan. Spirited performance by Wigan cancelled out by two clearly off-side goals from the home side awarded by referee Mike Jones and his sidekick running the line.
8 April 2012: Man Utd v QPR. Ashley Young, clearly in an off-side position, is 'felled' by the merest brush against Sean Derry and awarded a penalty. Derry sent off by referee Lee Mason and subsequent appeal against a ban rejected.
9 April 2012: Aston Villa v Stoke. Debatable free kick awarded to the away side with the score at 1-0. The resulting cross headed firmly into the net by Robert Huth courtesy of a huge lift-off on the shoulders of James Collins who is powerless to jump with the scorer. Villa's protests waved away by referee Mike Dean. The game finishes 1-1 and the relegation strugglers drop two vital points.
15 April. Man Utd v Aston Villa. In the 6th minute Villa's already difficult task is made nigh on impossible when Ashley Young, who learnt his tricks at Villa Park so why should we be so surprised, ghosts into the penalty area and makes a beeline for the boot of the retreating Ciaran Clarke over which he flings himself to massed demands for a penalty. Referee Mark Halsey, of Thierry Henri free kick fame and countless other outrageous decisions, predictably obliges - the boys in the studio concur 'you can't do that in the modern game' What? Dive? Or try and get your leg out of the way?
15 April. Chelsea v Spurs. FA Cup Semi Final, Wembley Stadium. An even and entertaining match, with little to separate the two teams apart from an exceptional Chelsea strike at the end of the first half, is ruined as a fair spectacle when the referee, Martin Atkinson sees the ball go over the Spurs goal line, even though no-one else does and even though repeated replays show it was in play all the time. John Terry pleads with the ref not allow the goal as it hit him and so couldn't have gone over, but his appeals fall on deaf ears. Mr Atkinson is sure and awards the goal (I made the JT bit up).
And so I could go on. I'm sure you can find plenty more game-changing examples of inept refereeing from the annals of Messrs Webb, Dowd, Probert, Clattenberg, Foy, et al. I really am getting sick of referee apologists. I've described these few cases of ineptitude all occurring within the last two or three weeks (there's only mostly Villa ones here because those are the ones that upset me the most). Anyone care to join in and challenge Roy Hodgson's claim that we have the best refs in the world?
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I was royally pissed off yesterday and accused them of deliberately cheating, maybe that was the wrong way of getting my point across, I think they're put under that much pressure by managers, media and players that the thought and stress of making mistakes is causing them to make the mistakes, although we do need some stronger characters who don't get influenced by John, Wayne, Steven and Frank.
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i'l tell you what anoys me most about the two main incidents over the last weekend,
firstly Ashleys dive, yes it was a dive, he did it for us he does it for them, thats what he does, he's a Diver,
but talk to most Man Utd fans and they will tell you he didnt and it was 100% penenlty, thats what does me head in, at least when he dived for us we admitted it, they wont because they are the no nothings of football
secondly, the ref made a clanger with the Chelsea goal massive mistake, but i'm damn sure he gave it because he thought it was over the line, what i couldnt stand was the 6 Chelsea players who chased after him demanding a goal, some of them knowing it was never over the line, just cheats ,
i hate cheats
anyway, thats what got my gander up
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lets not also forget;
Saturday 22nd October 2011 - Aston Villa V West Brom - Chris Herd Pulls his leg away from Olsson's wrestling move only to be sent off for stamping
Saturday 29th October 2011 Sunderland V Aston Villa - Richard Dunne goes shoulder to shoulder with a Sunderland attacker only to be pulled up for a foul - Sunderland score from the resulting free-kick (Albeit poor defending mind)
Wednesday 1st Febuary 2012 - Aston Villa - QPR - Goal Keeper like reactions by Shaun Derry (I think) to block Charles N'Zogbia's (I think) goalbound shot.
Saturday March 10th 2012 - Bolton v QPR - QPR defender heads home however Bogdan in the Bolton goal claws the ball onto the bar, even though the ball had crossed the line - No Goal!
Saturday March 10th 2012 - Bolton v QPR - QPR striker is clearly 2 yards offside when putting the ball into the net however the linesman decides not to flag and QPR goal stands.
Just a few from the top of my head whilst on Lunch!
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i'l tell you what anoys me most about the two main incidents over the last weekend,
firstly Ashleys dive, yes it was a dive, he did it for us he does it for them, thats what he does, he's a Diver,
but talk to most Man Utd fans and they will tell you he didnt and it was 100% penenlty, thats what does me head in, at least when he dived for us we admitted it, they wont because they are the no nothings of football
When he did it for us people on the Holte would shout ffs Ash get up. Thats the difference, we were ashamed of it where as they embrace it.
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The whole game is ruined.
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Just playing devils advocate but if we were on the right side of these decisions, would we be complaining about poor referees?
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Just playing devils advocate but if we were on the right side of these decisions, would we be complaining about poor referees?
No. But just because we're hypocrites doesn't mean there is nothing wrong with bad refereeing decisions.
Bad as referees have been lately, I don't think they are helped by players and managers. You have players like Young who dive and cheat to defraud the referee leading him to give a wrong decision. Then, you have the whole charade where players surround and attempt to intimidate the referee irrespective of whether the decision involved is correct or incorrect. Then you have managers, players and even office holders at clubs who use press conferences or social networking to whinge about refereeing decisions irrespective of whether they are right or wrong. They do this solely in order to intimidate referees ahead of any future decisions or to excuse themselves from their own shortcomings using a target everyone is too happy to blame and who doesn't get the chance to answer back.
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what about Wigans clear goal against united. Disallowed dont know what for.
Cieran Clark lying on the floor with a head injury, Ref plays on until MANYOO lose the ball. Or Heskey down holding his head and the ref plays on.
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what about Wigans clear goal against united. Disallowed dont know what for.
Cieran Clark lying on the floor with a head injury, Ref plays on until MANYOO lose the ball. Or Heskey down holding his head and the ref plays on.
in fairness if you stopped the game every time Heskey went down the match would last about 5 hours
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stop the players cheating and you will make the referees jobs easier - from things like appealing for throw ins when it is clearly them who have put the ball out to diving for penalties.
castigate the players, not the referees!!!
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Retrospective punishment for diving (oh, fuck it, CHEATING!) is the only cure. First offence 3 game ban, sunsequent offences 5 games each. That'll stop it!
Alan Green on R5 (not usually my favourite person) was incensed by it yesterday and spoke very well. Fair play to him.
The thing is the ManYoo's of this world are happy to win by cheating, most of us wouldn't be if we're honest, though we'd probably take it and justify ourselves it was 'evening out'.
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There were plenty of H&V posters defending Young when there was a thread about his diving on here, despite it being blindingly obvious he is, and always has been, a cheat.
The players cheating is a big factor, but even the worst refs should be able to see that what Young did yesterday and last week was cheating. It's almost as if they want Man Yoo and Chelsea players to dive and cheat to give the an excuse to favour them. Otherwise it would look too obvious. Thick pundits don't help by trotting out incorrect platitudes like "there was contact so it's a foul". Cretins. Perhaps if more of them had the balls, not to mention the brains, to speak out against it, the FA and PL might take notice. And the FA refusing to revoke obvious errors doesn't help either. Bringing the game into disrepute is something they are all too ready to charge any dissenters with, but that's exactly what they are doing by condoning such behaviour and decisions.
Ultimately it's the fault of the authorities because there is no accountability, and no transparency. In any other walk of life, wherever I've seen those two things lacking, it is usually a sure sign of some form of corruption.
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Once the officials cottoned on to Young's antics he got very little from them even when he was genuinely fouled. Now he has a new shirt, a more important shirt in the eyes of the officals it's become a different situation. He has instantly become a much better player and will be treated as a much better player. If it's a 50/50 decision the shirt he's now clad in will give the decision in his favour.
Officials are shit scared of getting a decision incorrect where ManU are concerned. After all, they do have a carreer to protect.
Dowd, Halsey, Dean, the other clown we had for the Chelsea game...CAUCs the lot of them.
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I firmly believe that we have honest referees, yes, they make mistakes, but they are having to deal with cheating players, whether this be at one end of the scale the diving, and at the other appealing for throw ins that are obvious should go to the other team.
The problem is not the referees, but the players and their management.
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I firmly believe that we have honest referees, yes, they make mistakes, but they are having to deal with cheating players, whether this be at one end of the scale the diving, and at the other appealing for throw ins that are obvious should go to the other team.
The problem is not the referees, but the players and their management.
Phil, with respect I think it's a combination of both. I really can't see how Halsey failed to appreciate a genuine effort by our defender to get out of the way of AY combined with a genuine attempt by AY to make sure contact and acrobatics were achieved. I'm not saying they never make mistakes; I just think they don't think objectovely enough in the heat of the moment and get caught up in the atmosphere. But so many of them are just plain awful, like Mike Dean's catalogue of bloopers against Stoke.
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If you've been a linesman then you'll be in agreement that 9 times out of 10 its boderline and very hard to judge
Atkinson could never be certain that the whole ball was over the line, he never should have gave it.
Yesterday Halseys postioning should have meant he could see Ashley Youngs dive, its not easy to see when someone does it, but that one was easy
Referee's have good games when there not at Old Trafford and the like, because match of the day covers 20 million angles and concludes the referee's wrong when it goes against the 'big teams'
I'd love to see a good decision highlighted as much a bad one
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Referees are crap.
I accept human error and all that.
But I don't accept how referees always give a foul when an attacker slightly brushes a defender and the defender falls over.
Or how when a striker goes up for a challenge for the goalie and slightly brushes him, the goalie falls over and the ref gives a free-kick.
Are they really that gullible?
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what about Wigans clear goal against united. Disallowed dont know what for.
Cieran Clark lying on the floor with a head injury, Ref plays on until MANYOO lose the ball. Or Heskey down holding his head and the ref plays on.
The ref not stopping the game with Clarkey on the floor until ManU lost possession was the perfect example for me of ref's favouring the "big" clubs over others. A player is either seriously hurt or he isn't. The ref let it go until "the good guys" fucked up then he brought it back. Forget the Ash dive, the ref should be slaughtered for letting an injured player lie there until that player's team gained possession.
What the fuck is that all about?
And it was interesting to notice that Evra had a little look at Clarke (who he'd just smashed in the head with his elbow) before going down himself clutching his head pretending they'd clashed heads. That's cheating and that's what technology should be used for. If it was rugby union Evra's actions would have been noted and he would now be banned for a few games for his cowardly action.
I am not being biased, just appalled again at how shit so many of our refs and "great" players are ruining the game.
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Whenever I see Phil Dowd refereeing, I always think of that line someone on here used to describe him, "He should be driving a van", which communicates his inability to do his current job perfectly.
My beef with refereeing isn't that they make mistakes - that is human - it is when you see blatant double standards. An example yesterday was not stopping play for the head injury to Clark till United had finished their attacking move.
If that had been the other way around, and it had been Rooney on the ground, and us attacking at Old Trafford (try to imagine it), would he have done the same thing?
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Bugger, just like the poster above me said. Which I hadn't noticed.
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If the news started breaking that there was widespread corruption involving referees I would not be surprised.
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And that cheating fucker Olssen would also be banned. He held Herd's foot which led to the unfair sending off which was rescinded. He then went on national TV and told millions that Herd had stamped on him.
Surely, even a complete fucking idiot can work out that is simply very very wrong and is bringing the game into disrepute. His punishment? Fuck all!
Will he do it again? Very likely. It's cheating and he's got away with it, so carry on doing it. The FA clearly don't care about making the game fair and just for all.
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It is true to say that players and managers are also at fault but players have been at it for years and years well before Sky came along. I remember as a kid being totally disillusioned by Keegan when he played against us for Liverpool in the '70's. He had been held up as the ultimate professional by media at the time but spent the whole game whinging at the ref over every decision! One of the big differences then was that referees were not media 'luvvies' wanting to get on TV and in the papers. The other difference was that TV football was in it's infancy so every decision was not disected hundreds of times by 'pundits'.
It is really difficult to comment without it looking like sour grapes, however, I am convinced that referees are inclined to give decisions in favour of the 'top' teams because of how everything is so closely scrutinised by the media and the biggest draw for the media are the 'Sky 4 or 6'. The incident with Gabby vs Chelsea is clear, he won the ball fairly, the linesman, no more than 5 yards away, saw nothing wrong, Terry holds his hands up and gets a foul. On Sunday Young clearly dived, Clark was backing away yet the way Young went down suggested he had been involved in a crunching tackle. At Wembley there were 4 or 5 players lying on the line and yet the referee was convinced the ball had gone over because certain players (who I gather have already said they knew it wasn't a goal) appealled anyway.
The help for refs needs to come from the authorities as soon as possible. Managers will never show up their own players for cheating and players will always try it on if the gaffer says nothing and the ref gives it without question.
Goal line technology and retrospective bans for diving and other forms of cheating need to come in.
I still reckon I'd spend most of my time at Villa Park, moaning at the ref though! Can't remember the last one who had a decent game, no not one that gave us everything!!, just someone who managed the game with common sense and no fuss
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31 March 2012: Aston Villa v Chelsea. 50-50 ball near the touchline between Agbonlahor and Terry with the score at 2-2. Agbonlahor comes away cleanly with the ball, linesman does not flag; Referee Lee Mason acknowledges Terry's appeal from the ground by giving a free kick to Chelsea, who attack, get a corner and score.
7 April 2012: Chelsea v Wigan. Spirited performance by Wigan cancelled out by two clearly off-side goals from the home side awarded by referee Mike Jones and his sidekick running the line.
8 April 2012: Man Utd v QPR. Ashley Young, clearly in an off-side position, is 'felled' by the merest brush against Sean Derry and awarded a penalty. Derry sent off by referee Lee Mason and subsequent appeal against a ban rejected.
9 April 2012: Aston Villa v Stoke. Debatable free kick awarded to the away side with the score at 1-0. The resulting cross headed firmly into the net by Robert Huth courtesy of a huge lift-off on the shoulders of James Collins who is powerless to jump with the scorer. Villa's protests waved away by referee Mike Dean. The game finishes 1-1 and the relegation strugglers drop two vital points.
15 April. Man Utd v Aston Villa. In the 6th minute Villa's already difficult task is made nigh on impossible when Ashley Young, who learnt his tricks at Villa Park so why should we be so surprised, ghosts into the penalty area and makes a beeline for the boot of the retreating Ciaran Clarke over which he flings himself to massed demands for a penalty. Referee Mark Halsey, of Thierry Henri free kick fame and countless other outrageous decisions, predictably obliges - the boys in the studio concur 'you can't do that in the modern game' What? Dive? Or try and get your leg out of the way?
15 April. Chelsea v Spurs. FA Cup Semi Final, Wembley Stadium. An even and entertaining match, with little to separate the two teams apart from an exceptional Chelsea strike at the end of the first half, is ruined as a fair spectacle when the referee, Martin Atkinson sees the ball go over the Spurs goal line, even though no-one else does and even though repeated replays show it was in play all the time. John Terry pleads with the ref not allow the goal as it hit him and so couldn't have gone over, but his appeals fall on deaf ears. Mr Atkinson is sure and awards the goal (I made the JT bit up).
And so I could go on. I'm sure you can find plenty more game-changing examples of inept refereeing from the annals of Messrs Webb, Dowd, Probert, Clattenberg, Foy, et al. I really am getting sick of referee apologists. I've described these few cases of ineptitude all occurring within the last two or three weeks (there's only mostly Villa ones here because those are the ones that upset me the most). Anyone care to join in and challenge Roy Hodgson's claim that we have the best refs in the world?
there was the Derry one , over the line by 6 miles , cant remember who against.
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The thing is this could so easily be dealt with which would take the kind of terrible decision making that happened yesterday out the loop.
Why don't they just do it, its almost as though they want to encourage potential corruption and/or bad decision making.
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The thing is this could so easily be dealt with which would take the kind of terrible decision making that happened yesterday out the loop.
Why don't they just do it, its almost as though they want to encourage potential corruption and/or bad decision making.
This.
For me the most obvious offence that could be dealt with is all the pushing, shoving and shirt pulling at corners/set pieces that refs seem to completely ignore these days. If a player grabs another's shirt on the half way line it's a foul and usually given. Ironically, doing this in the penalty area is fine. This leads to confusion, relying on the ref's "interpretation" which muddies a really simple offence/punishment even more. Warn the player/s involved - if they do it again give a penalty/free kick and send the offender off. They'd soon clear up a load of shit, we'd all know what a foul is and the game would be better for it.
Van Persie has just kicked the fuck out of Di Santos and what did the ref do? F**k all!
And Di Santo has just scored!
Fuck!
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Halsey could have won a huge amount of respect yesterday if he'd have booked Young. Being the poor ref that he is though, he saw a red shirt go down, remembered where he was and took the easy option. Throw in the Clark incident and it was pretty spineless refereeing.
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I've mooted this one before, it's radical but it would perhaps make your Ashley Young diver think again.
Each team can nominate a clogger, and then identify the oppositions cloggee. Your clogger is allowed 3 'free hits' if you will on the cloggee without retribution from your referee. So yesterday, no penalty and the 2 further hits to pole-axe Mr Young.
Sadly at the moment, nobody would bother identifying a cloggee for us!
That and goal line technology and we are sorted I think.
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Are our referees the best in the world? There's no reason why they should be any better or worse than refs in other countries. I personally don't have a clue whether there are more or less reffing errors here than in say the Bundesliga or Serie A. And I guess many of the people who have a strong view on this don't either. And also I don't particularly care.
Are our refs crap / spineless / biased? I don't think so. It's a virtually impossible job to do perfectly - players deliberately trying to con the ref, a game that is incredibly fast, many decisions that are "shades of grey" that experienced pundits can't agree on after several slow motion replays. And doing it to a standard of say 8/10 is not enough: the errors get repeatedly highlighted by TV replays, by managers and by fans. The correct decisions pass without comment.
I think there is something in home-team bias as subconsciously anyone must be somewhat influenced by crowd noise / appealing etc.
But even if people do think their standards are low, what can we do about it? It's not like there are loads of better refs waiting in the wings, and refs went professional a few years ago now.
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7,000 young reffs this year vegas so its not too bad
I genuinely believe the standards have slipped over the last few years, and they do bottle decisions at the big clubs. Look at Anfield the other week, Carruthers and Suarez go down in the area, referee gives no penalty on each decision, which one of them got booked?
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Cieran Clark lying on the floor with a head injury, Ref plays on until MANYOO lose the ball. Or Heskey down holding his head and the ref plays on.
I was going mad about that.
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with all the money in football now, why cant they have 2 extra linos behind each goal. When the ball comes into the box, one to watch shoving, and one to watch the goal line. Oh and all officials to wear headphones to block out crowd noise
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with all the money in football now, why cant they have 2 extra linos behind each goal. When the ball comes into the box, one to watch shoving, and one to watch the goal line.
Isn't that what they do in European competition and everyone finds it completely ridiculous?
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with all the money in football now, why cant they have 2 extra linos behind each goal. When the ball comes into the box, one to watch shoving, and one to watch the goal line.
Isn't that what they do in European competition and everyone finds it completely ridiculous?
Not sure if everyone finds it ridiculous, but I think by having 2, and like I say with one watching for fouls, pushing at corners, well just maybe some of it might stop
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phil dowd has got the cup final ;D
not that I'll be watching
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Of all the multi billion pound businesses on the planet, football would be the single exception if some form of corruption did not exist. It needn't involve money changing hands, it can be a question of unduly influencing or pressurising people, misuse of position or authority, nepotism, favouritism, and so on. Outright bribery has been proven in other countries , especially Italy, a few times. There is no reason why the UK or England should be exempt from the liklihood of such shenanigans, given the massive sums involved now in the PL and CL. There are plenty of refs decisions that do not appear to be adequately explained by mere incompetence. And an alwful lot of them happen at Old Trafford n favour of the home team.
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I thought football was a contact sport. What really annoys me is the unwritten rule that "there was contact, it must be a foul...".
Run as fast as you can and brush against someone/something 8/10 times you'll lose balance or fall over. Apply that to the football pitch and it is perfectly possible for contact with an opposition player, at pace, and the result be a player on the floor and no foul play to have taken place.
Unfortunately this seems to be a concept that has been forgotten by modern football along with Honesty, Sportsmanship and integrity. Honest footballers aren't winners.
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Just noticed that Howard Webb is reffing the Champions League semi tonight (An all English team of officials). Will be interesting to see how he performs?
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phil dowd has got the cup final ;D
not that I'll be watching
Lets hope he does a better job refereeing than the last final he did.
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I thought football was a contact sport. What really annoys me is the unwritten rule that "there was contact, it must be a foul...".
Run as fast as you can and brush against someone/something 8/10 times you'll lose balance or fall over. Apply that to the football pitch and it is perfectly possible for contact with an opposition player, at pace, and the result be a player on the floor and no foul play to have taken place.
Unfortunately this seems to be a concept that has been forgotten by modern football along with Honesty, Sportsmanship and integrity. Honest footballers aren't winners.
For me it's the single most infuriating thing about modern football, and I've been ranting about Yorke and Wilkins spouting the now traditional "there was contact" bullshit on Sunday. Someone was defending Young saying he's only slight and very quick so the merest brush can knock him off balance. Well tough shit, put some weight on, stand your ground and stop throwing yourself around like a great pansy you big bucket of wuss. I suppose you can't blame him too much though if the refs are thick/weak enough to give the fouls and the authorities weak enough to back them.
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Just noticed that Howard Webb is reffing the Champions League semi tonight (An all English team of officials). Will be interesting to see how he performs?
All in all I thought he did ok - though he could have sent Marcelinho off at the end I suppose.
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The difficulty is compounded by the yellow cards given recently to Suarez (vs AV), Carruthers (vs L''The Mighty Reds YNWA') and Tevez (vs Norwich) for 'simulation' which slo-mo showed were indeed all fouls.
I find the whole diving bit - and other simulated injuries - quite despicable; the problem is that refs will be castigated either way: for being over-zealous with the cards or for tolerating the sort of diving of which AY is a master.
Refs need to be wired to a fourth official in the stand with a TV monitor so that he can be briefed about the reality of an offence.
Either that, or post-match citing - as per Rugby Union - where players can be cited and punished retrospectively (I realise it won't alter the result but it will probably reduce the instances of simulation dramatically because managers will not want their players banned).
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phil dowd has got the cup final ;D
Having just completed a refereeing qualification at the weekend, I can say with a little authority that Dowd takes "interpretation" to a new level.
Dowd Law ishould be made into a TV series.
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Either that, or post-match citing - as per Rugby Union - where players can be cited and punished retrospectively (I realise it won't alter the result but it will probably reduce the instances of simulation dramatically because managers will not want their players banned).
[/quote] This is the most obvious soloution, it takes the pressure off the ref, he can give what he sees knowing that if he has been conned the citing comitee will deal with it. this would reduce the diving dramatically.
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Three things:
- I accept human errors by refs if they are truely even handed but in reality the big decisions go to the big team. Graham Poll reckoned this was because the big teams get to the finals and if the ref p!sses off a big club manager they are unlikely to be selected for a cup final they appear in.
- I can accept if the ref didn't see something he can't give it but its unforgiveable for the ref to make something up eg the chelsea second goal. Basically he guessed.
- the rules of football allow contact but not a defender deliberately tripping someone. Clearly not a pen for Man U on sunday and yet the 'experts' in the studio talked about contact. If nothing else comes out of this sky must make sure their pundits know the basic rules of football.
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phil dowd has got the cup final ;D
not that I'll be watching
Phil Dowd is a ******.
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- I can accept if the ref didn't see something he can't give it but its unforgiveable for the ref to make something up eg the chelsea second goal. Basically he guessed.
But isn't that what refs do in a lot of decisions? There's no way. for instance, that a ref can categorically know that a handball in the box when the ball is hit at a defender from five yards is definitely deliberate, so he has to guess. Or when a player goes flying, was he tripped or did he dive, it's a guess.
Same with the Chelsea goal, he had a couple of seconds to decide and he must have thought something along the lines of "Tottenham player way behind the line, I reckon that was over" so he gave the goal.