Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine

Off Topic => Sports Arena => Topic started by: Rick_avfc on April 13, 2012, 09:39:42 AM

Title: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Rick_avfc on April 13, 2012, 09:39:42 AM
Apologies if this has been started else where but Mods, feel free to lock it if it has but just wondered if anyone is betting on the national tomorrow and on who?
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Karl Bridges on April 13, 2012, 10:16:50 AM
Junior
Killyglen
In Compliance - for an outsider

Those are the three i've been pointed towards by someone that knows what they're on about.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Rick_avfc on April 13, 2012, 10:21:47 AM
ill remember those.  worth a punt.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Concrete John on April 13, 2012, 10:24:01 AM
Junior
Killyglen
In Compliance - for an outsider

Those are the three i've been pointed towards by someone that knows what they're on about.

I've got that in the sweep at work.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: SteveN on April 13, 2012, 11:58:53 AM

Treacle - at 25-1 currently and has always been aimed at this race
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Nev on April 13, 2012, 07:26:07 PM
From a comitted jumps fan I detest the National, the biggest spotlight the sport has all year and it always generates such negative publicity. A 40 horse lottery, half a mile too long where the fences are too big and the skill of the jockey and talent of the horse comes secondary to luck. All played out in front of an audience of screeching, attention seeking paralytic idiots with appalling dress sense who wouldn't know one end of a horse from the other.

Anyway, West End Rocker.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on April 13, 2012, 08:10:44 PM
1st - Synchronised 15-2
2nd - Cappa Bleu  14-1

A tenner with a straight forecast is a nice little earner.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: eric woolban woolban on April 13, 2012, 08:31:36 PM
I'm betting on According to Pete, in reference to my name.

If it win's it'll be the first time According has been a use for my first name.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: knowsleyvillain on April 13, 2012, 09:42:10 PM
Another for West End rocker,also backed Chicago Grey,  Shakalakaboomboom & planet of sound each way.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: PeterWithesShin on April 13, 2012, 09:47:27 PM
Weasel Face ridden by Andy Carroll is my tip for the donkey derby.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Lobsterboy on April 13, 2012, 10:20:54 PM
I love the Cheltenham Festival but the Grand National is the greatest steeplechase race bar none

Ignore the stories about anything can win, this race follows strong trends more than most and you should find the winner from one of these six

Synchronised
Alfa Beat
Shakalakaboomboom
Killyglen
Sunnyhillboy
Mon Mome
Rare Bob

I wouldn't recommend backing all six but the winner will come from one of these

Famous last words I know...
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: manic-road on April 14, 2012, 01:00:09 PM
West End Rocker

A great each way bet.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 14, 2012, 03:21:08 PM
Seabass, Organised Confusion, Shakalaboomboom, Rare Bob.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Dave on April 14, 2012, 04:40:55 PM
My missus has the picked the winner of the National every year for the last five years.

She got 40-1 on Neptune Collonges this morning. Wish she'd put more than £2 a time on each year.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: TheSandman on April 14, 2012, 04:41:13 PM
Beaten by a fucking nose. Not only that, but beaten by a fucking nose by the horse my dad bet on.

He had the winner last year too. And I think my bloody horse came second last year too.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: villajk on April 14, 2012, 04:51:46 PM
I don't gamble but had a go today as there was no football for us.

Chose the two horses with the name Neptune in because of Neptunes in Benidorm.

I won.  Only had a pound on them each way, mind.  Still a winner.  Think I should have a go on the lottery tonight.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Dave Cooper please on April 14, 2012, 04:52:27 PM
Two horses including Synchronised have died.
Well worth your one bet a year eh?
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: richard moore on April 14, 2012, 04:54:57 PM
Two horses including Synchronised have died.
Well worth your one bet a year eh?

Indeed. A disgusting debacle as far as I am concerned which I know won't make me popular in these parts. It is even more distasteful when people take an interest in horse racing once a year just to bet on this. I would ban it tomorrow if I could
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: villajk on April 14, 2012, 05:00:41 PM
Two horses including Synchronised have died.
Well worth your one bet a year eh?

I didn't know that.  Then no, it isn't.  That is indeed very sad.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: villajk on April 14, 2012, 05:02:28 PM
Two horses including Synchronised have died.
Well worth your one bet a year eh?

Indeed. A disgusting debacle as far as I am concerned which I know won't make me popular in these parts. It is even more distasteful when people take an interest in horse racing once a year just to bet on this. I would ban it tomorrow if I could

I don't take an interest once a year.  That was the first time I have ever bet on it.
I don't normally bet.


Very sad news about the horses.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: richard moore on April 14, 2012, 05:03:17 PM
...is the right answer Pauline, I am glad, and not at all surprised, that you agree
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Dave on April 14, 2012, 05:05:53 PM
Indeed. A disgusting debacle as far as I am concerned which I know won't make me popular in these parts. It is even more distasteful when people take an interest in horse racing once a year just to bet on this. I would ban it tomorrow if I could
Hard to disagree. If they are going to cancel whole TV series (http://news.sky.com/home/showbiz-news/article/16189302) because of safety concerns involving the horses, it's hard to see the justification in horse racing.

The one part that I would disagree with is the part about people who only do it once a year. Surely a horse is just as likely to die in any other steeplechase so why should people who just watch this one feel any more complicit?
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: richard moore on April 14, 2012, 05:09:44 PM
I have no truck with horse racing per se Dave though I also have no interest in it but surely you have to ban particular races that have a history of fatalities? It makes me want to cry the way people are happy to try and win a few quid once a year at the cost of these poor animals' lives
 
Two other horses out on the track being treated as well

Oh, and I am glad we agree on something at long last!!! ;-)
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Dave on April 14, 2012, 05:14:11 PM
What about those people who want to win a few quid every couple of days at the cost of the horses' lives?

How is that better?
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 14, 2012, 05:15:52 PM
I don't really like horse racing, and don't like the National at all, but I have to take a close interest in it for work (and have spent the entire day on call today because of it).

I don't normally have a flutter on it, I usually just bet on football, but had a few quid today.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: PeterWithesShin on April 14, 2012, 05:15:56 PM
Playing advocate for a moment, should we ban football after what happened to Muamba and Piermario Morosini?
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: taylorsworkrate on April 14, 2012, 05:16:44 PM
I will usually argue all day with people who run down horse racing.

However with the Grand National I tend to agree. It's a decent handicap race at best and the chances of a horse losing is life is astronomical compared to other races. At the very least the fences should be shortened and the ground made softer.

Its not worth the risk on the horses or the jockeys.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: taylorsworkrate on April 14, 2012, 05:17:40 PM
Playing advocate for a moment, should we ban football after what happened to Muamba and Piermario Morosini?

Ban Boxing?

People have been paralysed playing Rugby. Ban Rugby?
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: richard moore on April 14, 2012, 05:21:08 PM
Playing advocate for a moment, should we ban football after what happened to Muamba and Piermario Morosini?

The Grand National has a consistent history of fatalities PWS, football doesn't, that is the difference for me

Dave - A lot of people bet just once a year on this particular race knowing it has this sort of history. I find that very distasteful but realise that it just my view. Someone on the radio has just said people like me need to 'grow up' and 'get on with it' so that is what I shall pootle off and do!
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: richard moore on April 14, 2012, 05:24:54 PM
Playing advocate for a moment, should we ban football after what happened to Muamba and Piermario Morosini?

Ban Boxing?

People have been paralysed playing Rugby. Ban Rugby?

No, of course not, but if you had some specific type of one off event within those sports that consistently led to fatalities - which of course is not the case as the analogy doesn't exist - it would probably be banned
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Dave on April 14, 2012, 05:26:05 PM
I'd say the obvious difference between horse racing and the sports listed above is that the horses aren't really choosing to do it.

If they were going out of their own accord, knowing the risks then I'm not sure there would be much to complain about.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: damon loves JT on April 14, 2012, 05:38:23 PM
The Grand National is a bloodsport. If you're cool with bloodsports, that's one thing, but let's not pretend it's just a bit of harmless fun.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: cdward on April 14, 2012, 05:41:24 PM
You can't compare animals to people when talking about fatalities in sport, and how is having a flutter once a year being complicit, totally ridiculous opinions. If you are offended by horse racing don't watch, bet or participate in it, but don't get on your high horse about those that have a different opinion.
There really are some ridiculous comments on here.
For the record I have no interest in horses or races, but have a bet on the Grand National once a year. I don't want horses to be killed during the race, but if there are changes to be made I'm happy to let the horse racing people make them.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: TopDeck113 on April 14, 2012, 05:45:02 PM
The disgrace in horse racing is not necessarily the couple of fatalities that happen once a year at Aintree, but the fate of the vast majority of the 3000 or so horses that are retired from racing each year.  Still it keeps our European cousins well fed...
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: manic-road on April 14, 2012, 05:47:22 PM
Shame about the fatalities but that's horse racing. Some will break down just running on the flat never mind jumping over fences or hurdles.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: richard moore on April 14, 2012, 05:48:57 PM
You can't compare animals to people when talking about fatalities in sport, and how is having a flutter once a year being complicit, totally ridiculous opinions. If you are offended by horse racing don't watch, bet or participate in it, but don't get on your high horse about those that have a different opinion.
There really are some ridiculous comments on here.
For the record I have no interest in horses or races, but have a bet on the Grand National once a year. I don't want horses to be killed during the race, but if there are changes to be made I'm happy to let the horse racing people make them.


I agree entirely. There really are some ridiculous comments on here
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: cdward on April 14, 2012, 06:16:45 PM
You can't compare animals to people when talking about fatalities in sport, and how is having a flutter once a year being complicit, totally ridiculous opinions. If you are offended by horse racing don't watch, bet or participate in it, but don't get on your high horse about those that have a different opinion.
There really are some ridiculous comments on here.
For the record I have no interest in horses or races, but have a bet on the Grand National once a year. I don't want horses to be killed during the race, but if there are changes to be made I'm happy to let the horse racing people make them.


I agree entirely. There really are some ridiculous comments on here

Yep, I was talking about your ridiculous comments, but didn't feel the need to single you out.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Dave Cooper please on April 14, 2012, 06:44:05 PM
Playing advocate for a moment, should we ban football after what happened to Muamba and Piermario Morosini?

Ban Boxing?

People have been paralysed playing Rugby. Ban Rugby?

Say if, in just one football or rugby match a year, they made it much harder than usual by having someone on the side with an iron bar trying to break the players legs, would you think that was okay? The Grand National is popular because the horses are jumping bigger fences and running a longer distance than almost any other race, but this means they are killing horses who are breaking legs or becoming utterly exhausted, all in the name of making it a spectacle and hoping we spend huge amounts betting on it.

 As for boxing, well boxers know the risk and don't have to step into the ring, the horses don't get that choice. Yes I know the horses are bred to race and obviously enjoy it or they wouldn't jump the fences, but you can't tell me that the horse knows the risks!
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Lobsterboy on April 14, 2012, 06:46:15 PM
Really sad news about Synchronised and According To Pete who were killed today, thoughts are with connections of the horses

Just one question for all the people who watch one race a year and have decided we need to ban horse racing; can you let me know what we are going to do with all the jockeys, trainers, stable staff, vets, farriers etc who earn a living from this sport? Oh and the horses?

Are we going to consign them to the scrap heap on a whim or should we perhaps take a step back and allow the animal welfare people to work with the horse racing community to try and improve this situation?

Just a thought...
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Dave Cooper please on April 14, 2012, 06:55:57 PM

Just one question for all the people who watch one race a year and have decided we need to ban horse racing; can you let me know what we are going to do with all the jockeys, trainers, stable staff, vets, farriers etc who earn a living from this sport? Oh and the horses?


The same argument was made about fox hunting.

Anyway, I personally didn't say ban it completely, just make it much, much safer. Four mile races over huge fences is asking for dead horses.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Lobsterboy on April 14, 2012, 07:03:47 PM
You cannot compare it with fox hunting; fox hutning is barbaric with the idea of the whole thing to slaughter some poor defenseless animal.

I'm pretty sure the idea of horse racing is not to kill the horses.

Yes, they need to do everything in their power to make the sport and in particular this race safer but as a horse racing fan I grow tired of reading the same stuff after every National with no acknowledgement of any improvements made
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: richard moore on April 14, 2012, 07:16:54 PM
Really sad news about Synchronised and According To Pete who were killed today, thoughts are with connections of the horses

Just one question for all the people who watch one race a year and have decided we need to ban horse racing; can you let me know what we are going to do with all the jockeys, trainers, stable staff, vets, farriers etc who earn a living from this sport? Oh and the horses?

Are we going to consign them to the scrap heap on a whim or should we perhaps take a step back and allow the animal welfare people to work with the horse racing community to try and improve this situation?

Just a thought...

You ban the one race or at the very least make it considerably safer thereby reducing the risk hugely. You can never remove the risk totally from any sport. No one has talked for one moment about banning horse racing altogether as far as I am aware?
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: richard moore on April 14, 2012, 07:23:39 PM
You can't compare animals to people when talking about fatalities in sport, and how is having a flutter once a year being complicit, totally ridiculous opinions. If you are offended by horse racing don't watch, bet or participate in it, but don't get on your high horse about those that have a different opinion.
There really are some ridiculous comments on here.
For the record I have no interest in horses or races, but have a bet on the Grand National once a year. I don't want horses to be killed during the race, but if there are changes to be made I'm happy to let the horse racing people make them.


I agree entirely. There really are some ridiculous comments on here

Yep, I was talking about your ridiculous comments, but didn't feel the need to single you out.


I wouldn't have minded your ridiculous comments singling me out out at all. I did say in my very first post that my views would not be popular on here and so it has proved. I think my shoulders are broad enough to accept you have an opposing view and hey, when it all comes down to it, it doesn't actually affect me in any concrete way at all. My thoughts are solely with the poor horses who had no choice in the matter as I hate to see animals killed in the pursuit of someone else's sport
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: damon loves JT on April 14, 2012, 07:51:41 PM
I would love to make it illegal to be a stupid fucking twat. I would also ban 'Stuart Little'. But this is unlikely to happen. Modifying the Grand National is an achievable goal.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: PeterWithe on April 14, 2012, 07:53:55 PM
Thats a shame, won me a few quid at Cheltenham did that hoss.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 14, 2012, 08:07:22 PM
You cannot compare it with fox hunting; fox hutning is barbaric with the idea of the whole thing to slaughter some poor defenseless animal.

I'm pretty sure the idea of horse racing is not to kill the horses.

Of course you can't compare it with fox hunting.

Comparing the National to boxing is a bit dimwitted, for obvious reasons, but comparing it to fox hunting is even wider of the mark.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Somniloquism on April 14, 2012, 08:56:43 PM
Here are a list of fatalities at the Grand National.  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equine_fatalities_in_the_Grand_National)

In the last 10 years the deaths have been twice the average of all other Steeple Chases. The breakdown of deaths by fence is the most interesting figure. A third of all deaths have occurred at only one fence (Beechers obviously.) So one fence removed and it would be a less blood thirsty event. I'm sure that the fence would have been removed/ changed if it was jockeys and not horses dying due to injuries sustained in the event.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Dave Cooper please on April 14, 2012, 10:16:11 PM
You cannot compare it with fox hunting; fox hutning is barbaric with the idea of the whole thing to slaughter some poor defenseless animal.


The comparison to fox hunting is valid in that the argument about how banning it would put loads of people out of work and animals (in this case hounds as well as horses) would be put down as they were no longer needed.
But fox hunting DID get banned, so what did they do? They adapted the sport so they could still ride around the countryside in silly clothes blowing horns but foxes (or less foxes at least) no longer die in horrible circumstances.

So we adapt the Grand National and all similar races to minimise the chance of horse getting crippled and dying. No one is out of work, the races are still run, but far less horses die.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: OzVilla on April 14, 2012, 10:31:47 PM
I'm not a racing fan but particularly dislike the Grand National.   

Should have been stopped years ago imo.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Nev on April 15, 2012, 06:32:19 AM
From a comitted jumps fan I detest the National, the biggest spotlight the sport has all year and it always generates such negative publicity. A 40 horse lottery, half a mile too long where the fences are too big and the skill of the jockey and talent of the horse comes secondary to luck. All played out in front of an audience of screeching, attention seeking paralytic idiots with appalling dress sense who wouldn't know one end of a horse from the other.

Anyway, West End Rocker.

I was so angry after yesterdays race because it was (like our the season we're having) so predictable. Racing For Change work so hard to promote the sport but while the National is still run in it's present form they might as well not bother. The industry has a duty of care to it's participants and this gives the impression that it doesn't take it seriously. That couldn't be further from the truth but the perception of racing for the majority of the public is based on the events of the National.

It has to change.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: taylorsworkrate on April 15, 2012, 08:12:16 AM
Playing advocate for a moment, should we ban football after what happened to Muamba and Piermario Morosini?

Ban Boxing?

People have been paralysed playing Rugby. Ban Rugby?

Say if, in just one football or rugby match a year, they made it much harder than usual by having someone on the side with an iron bar trying to break the players legs, would you think that was okay? The Grand National is popular because the horses are jumping bigger fences and running a longer distance than almost any other race, but this means they are killing horses who are breaking legs or becoming utterly exhausted, all in the name of making it a spectacle and hoping we spend huge amounts betting on it.

 As for boxing, well boxers know the risk and don't have to step into the ring, the horses don't get that choice. Yes I know the horses are bred to race and obviously enjoy it or they wouldn't jump the fences, but you can't tell me that the horse knows the risks!

I totally agree with your sentiments about the Grand National, as shown in my earlier post. I don't believe the race has any sort of credibility. The National doesn't reflect well on racing to the wider public when things like this occur.

Horse racing in general though has done a hell of a lot regarding the safety of horses, and fatalities over the course of the year are extremely rare (the cross country race at Cheltenham is another race that should be banned however, as they can't water the course properly). It annoys me when people take isolated incidents like the race yesterday to tar the whole sport with the same brush. (not saying thats what your doing)

I will say one thing about Rugby though. There is a hell of a lot of danger in the setting of every scrum, no matter how well it is officiated.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: taylorsworkrate on April 15, 2012, 08:28:14 AM
You cannot compare it with fox hunting; fox hutning is barbaric with the idea of the whole thing to slaughter some poor defenseless animal.

I'm pretty sure the idea of horse racing is not to kill the horses.

Of course you can't compare it with fox hunting.

Comparing the National to boxing is a bit dimwitted, for obvious reasons, but comparing it to fox hunting is even wider of the mark.

Not really, considering the early context of the thread.

People were being castigated for trying to win money / enjoying the national at the expense of the horses (something with which I agree).

Then surely its comparable with Boxing, where people enjoy the sport and some try to win money whilst watching people attempt with all their force to seriously injure each other.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: taylorsworkrate on April 15, 2012, 08:29:23 AM
From a comitted jumps fan I detest the National, the biggest spotlight the sport has all year and it always generates such negative publicity. A 40 horse lottery, half a mile too long where the fences are too big and the skill of the jockey and talent of the horse comes secondary to luck. All played out in front of an audience of screeching, attention seeking paralytic idiots with appalling dress sense who wouldn't know one end of a horse from the other.

Anyway, West End Rocker.

I was so angry after yesterdays race because it was (like our the season we're having) so predictable. Racing For Change work so hard to promote the sport but while the National is still run in it's present form they might as well not bother. The industry has a duty of care to it's participants and this gives the impression that it doesn't take it seriously. That couldn't be further from the truth but the perception of racing for the majority of the public is based on the events of the National.

It has to change.

100% spot on.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: bob on April 15, 2012, 08:31:45 AM
surely you have to ban particular races that have a history of fatalities?

That would be all horse racing then.

Hard to disagree. If they are going to cancel whole TV series (http://news.sky.com/home/showbiz-news/article/16189302) because of safety concerns involving the horses, it's hard to see the justification in horse racing.

How does the inadequate care of horses used by a television studio relate to the wellbeing of horses trained for racing?

However with the Grand National I tend to agree. It's a decent handicap race at best and the chances of a horse losing is life is astronomical compared to other races.

The chances are higher due to the bigger fences, but they are not "astronomical" in comparison.

I understand the point about horses not choosing to race and it is a valid one. There are many risks in life and they need to be weighed up against the positives of horse breeding, training, care and quality of life that race horses have, which I believe there are many.

I'm not going to try and change anyone's opinion. I don't think it's a simple decision.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Somniloquism on April 15, 2012, 10:47:37 AM
surely you have to ban particular races that have a history of fatalities?

That would be all horse racing then.

Hard to disagree. If they are going to cancel whole TV series (http://news.sky.com/home/showbiz-news/article/16189302) because of safety concerns involving the horses, it's hard to see the justification in horse racing.

How does the inadequate care of horses used by a television studio relate to the wellbeing of horses trained for racing?

However with the Grand National I tend to agree. It's a decent handicap race at best and the chances of a horse losing is life is astronomical compared to other races.

The chances are higher due to the bigger fences, but they are not "astronomical" in comparison.

I understand the point about horses not choosing to race and it is a valid one. There are many risks in life and they need to be weighed up against the positives of horse breeding, training, care and quality of life that race horses have, which I believe there are many.

I'm not going to try and change anyone's opinion. I don't think it's a simple decision.

As I posted earlier, a 3rd of all injuries that lead to deaths occur at Beechers. (including the two yesterday). Remove that fence and it becomes less of a death race. Yet they won't because it is 'iconic' and until people stop betting on it because of the fatalities, they don't have any incentive to.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: olaftab on April 15, 2012, 11:24:27 AM
I understand 5 horses were killed during the so call Cheltenham Festival. I wonder if horses regard it as such!
After yesterday's losses it is unthinkable that we would carry on with this so called "sport". Surely we would not if it were human beings suffering bad injuries let alone death?
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: curlytailavfc on April 15, 2012, 11:40:51 AM
theres been more horse's die at the national than people at hilsborough and thats rammed down ya throat at every f.a. cup game
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Nev on April 15, 2012, 12:07:01 PM
theres been more horse's die at the national than people at hilsborough and thats rammed down ya throat at every f.a. cup game

No there hasn't.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: paul_e on April 15, 2012, 12:55:12 PM
Playing advocate for a moment, should we ban football after what happened to Muamba and Piermario Morosini?

Ban Boxing?

People have been paralysed playing Rugby. Ban Rugby?

Say if, in just one football or rugby match a year, they made it much harder than usual by having someone on the side with an iron bar trying to break the players legs, would you think that was okay? The Grand National is popular because the horses are jumping bigger fences and running a longer distance than almost any other race, but this means they are killing horses who are breaking legs or becoming utterly exhausted, all in the name of making it a spectacle and hoping we spend huge amounts betting on it.

 As for boxing, well boxers know the risk and don't have to step into the ring, the horses don't get that choice. Yes I know the horses are bred to race and obviously enjoy it or they wouldn't jump the fences, but you can't tell me that the horse knows the risks!

I totally agree with your sentiments about the Grand National, as shown in my earlier post. I don't believe the race has any sort of credibility. The National doesn't reflect well on racing to the wider public when things like this occur.

Horse racing in general though has done a hell of a lot regarding the safety of horses, and fatalities over the course of the year are extremely rare (the cross country race at Cheltenham is another race that should be banned however, as they can't water the course properly). It annoys me when people take isolated incidents like the race yesterday to tar the whole sport with the same brush. (not saying thats what your doing)

I will say one thing about Rugby though. There is a hell of a lot of danger in the setting of every scrum, no matter how well it is officiated.

Erm... really?  At professional level the number of injuries based purely around the scrum are so low as to be almost negligible.  Personally I played at a decent standard for 10 years and in the entire time I've never seen an injury from being in the scrum.  The only thing that you can argue against scrums is that, after 15-20 years of playing at a high level a small percentage of front five players will develop back and neck problems.

Back on track, take out beechers, miss out a couple of other fences (and make sure all of them are shorter and narrower) to get it down to 20 jumps and knock at least half a mile off the length of the race and the national will be fine and can carry on being the iconic race that the bookies love, in it's current state it's far too dangerous and isn't an interesting race in the slightest.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 15, 2012, 02:29:43 PM
You cannot compare it with fox hunting; fox hutning is barbaric with the idea of the whole thing to slaughter some poor defenseless animal.

I'm pretty sure the idea of horse racing is not to kill the horses.

Of course you can't compare it with fox hunting.

Comparing the National to boxing is a bit dimwitted, for obvious reasons, but comparing it to fox hunting is even wider of the mark.

Not really, considering the early context of the thread.

People were being castigated for trying to win money / enjoying the national at the expense of the horses (something with which I agree).

Then surely its comparable with Boxing, where people enjoy the sport and some try to win money whilst watching people attempt with all their force to seriously injure each other.

The difference is that boxing is participated in by human beings who are aware of the risks and choose to do so. Horses don't really have much say in the matter.

With fox hunting, the death of the fox (and the sheer terror up to that death) are the whole point of the sport.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: curlytailavfc on April 15, 2012, 02:37:24 PM
theres been more horse's die at the national than people at hilsborough and thats rammed down ya throat at every f.a. cup game

No there hasn't.
how many then as no figures are available pre 1928 and the average is 6 deaths per 1000 entrants
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Nev on April 16, 2012, 09:29:45 AM
theres been more horse's die at the national than people at hilsborough and thats rammed down ya throat at every f.a. cup game

No there hasn't.
how many then as no figures are available pre 1928 and the average is 6 deaths per 1000 entrants

No idea, just thought I'd join in with making unsubstantiated statements such as the two you made in your initial post.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Brend'Watkins on April 16, 2012, 12:55:41 PM
The horses didn't die as a result of their falling at fences they died as a result of being put down.  A broken limb for a horse is a death sentence whether that be jumps, on the flat or an equine event.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Dave Cooper please on April 16, 2012, 01:11:25 PM
The horses didn't die as a result of their falling at fences they died as a result of being put down.  A broken limb for a horse is a death sentence whether that be jumps, on the flat or an equine event.

Only because they are specifically bred like that. A 'normal' horse can survive a broken leg, a thoroughbred racing horse can't be kept still long enough for the break to heal.
 Horses are magnificent creatures, maybe if we banned racing (cue hysteria) then we could phase out the type of breed that can't survive a simple broken bone and get back to just enjoying horses.
 A bit like we should phase out breeds of dog like pit bulls, no need for them, they are just bred to be aggressive fighting dogs. Dogs are great, we don't need pit bulls.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Bottom Right 89 on April 16, 2012, 09:13:14 PM
Only because they are specifically bred like that. A 'normal' horse can survive a broken leg, a thoroughbred racing horse can't be kept still long enough for the break to heal.
 Horses are magnificent creatures, maybe if we banned racing (cue hysteria) then we could phase out the type of breed that can't survive a simple broken bone and get back to just enjoying horses.
 A bit like we should phase out breeds of dog like pit bulls, no need for them, they are just bred to be aggressive fighting dogs. Dogs are great, we don't need pit bulls.
Phasing out pitbulls is one thing and will only affect a few drug lords around brookvale. Taking a £billion out of the economy, making 100,000 people redundant and thousands of magnificent creatures surplus to requirements is something else. Maybe go back to an earlier suggestion and look at ways to make the National safer.

Here is the report by the BHA following last years race for anyone who believes the racing industry couldn't care less
http://www.britishhorseracing.com/grand-national-review/grand-national-review.pdf (http://www.britishhorseracing.com/grand-national-review/grand-national-review.pdf)
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Warren Aspinall on April 16, 2012, 10:03:15 PM
I love Horse racing, but i've always had an issue with the National.

At the moment we have a 4 mile steeplechase, which is 1 mile longer than nearly every other race. We have 40 runners which is at least 15/20 more runners than in most other races. We have higher/wider fences than in nearly every race.

The solution.

Shorten the race to 3 miles (the same distance as the Gold Cup), allow only 25 runners to enter (in line with most handicap races), thus doing away with 150/1 - 250/1 shots who are clearly not good enough, standardize fences across racing, with an emphasis on safety.

This will lead to a dramatic improvement & although it won't completely please the animal rights brigade, it will at least make the sport more humane.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: usav on April 17, 2012, 02:03:39 PM
The solution.

Shorten the race to 3 miles (the same distance as the Gold Cup), allow only 25 runners to enter (in line with most handicap races), thus doing away with 150/1 - 250/1 shots who are clearly not good enough, standardize fences across racing, with an emphasis on safety.

This will lead to a dramatic improvement & although it won't completely please the animal rights brigade, it will at least make the sport more humane.

Then it wouldn't be the national, it would be just another race.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: Nev on September 20, 2012, 02:52:07 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/horse-racing/19660089

They still refuse to reduce the distance and the field. Watch for a repeat of the hand wringing and arguing next April.
Title: Re: The Grand National 2012
Post by: AV1874 on November 22, 2012, 03:36:01 AM
The horses didn't die as a result of their falling at fences they died as a result of being put down.  A broken limb for a horse is a death sentence whether that be jumps, on the flat or an equine event.

Only because they are specifically bred like that. A 'normal' horse can survive a broken leg, a thoroughbred racing horse can't be kept still long enough for the break to heal.
 Horses are magnificent creatures, maybe if we banned racing (cue hysteria) then we could phase out the type of breed that can't survive a simple broken bone and get back to just enjoying horses.
 A bit like we should phase out breeds of dog like pit bulls, no need for them, they are just bred to be aggressive fighting dogs. Dogs are great, we don't need pit bulls.

To a point a normal horse can, sadly we lost a beautiful Welsh Cob sec D to a broken leg after he had been taken out by the person loaning him on I think a hunt. (I was only 11 at the time and devastated) He was if I remember correctly rushed up to one of the best vets in the country in Liverpool who told us that the break/damage was so significant that all he would be able to do is graze and would struggle with that so the heartbreaking decision to put him down was made as he wouldn't have had any good quality of life as a result of the accident.

The trouble with things like this, whenever you deal with horses there is a risk of things happening - our horse wasn't involved in a race like the Grand National and was still injured sufficiently to be put down. The risks are high, I don't think the race should be abolished, but more needs to be done to see what measures can be taken to try and make it safer for the horses and jockeys. What they may be, I don't have the answer for.
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