Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine

Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: olaftab on April 09, 2012, 11:31:46 PM

Title: Shay Given
Post by: olaftab on April 09, 2012, 11:31:46 PM
I would like to suggest that Given is not a very good keeper and the main reason for us conceding so many goals from set pieces. Defence is panic stricken because they know that the GK will not give them any help at set pieces.  He has not made many obvious mistakes that  can be entirely pinned on him but that is because he does not do any thing brave.  Been said that he is a good shot stopper but so is every other keeper in th ePL.

I think we need to move him on and give Brad a longer run in the team.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: Monty on April 09, 2012, 11:36:36 PM
I agree you know. He's a very good shot-stopper but that has a tendency to mask the number of deficiencies in his game. When Guzan came in I though he was more authoritative of his box and his distribution was better. Given is rooted to his line and is the worst offender in our team when it comes to the aimless boofing. However, it was classic McLeish: favour the established, 'senior' player regardless of form.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: luke25 on April 09, 2012, 11:37:22 PM
I agree, his reaction saves are fantastic and look nice in a Match of the day type highlights show but his command of the box is gash, no chance of moving him on though with the contract we gave him.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: Chris Harte on April 09, 2012, 11:39:31 PM
Being a good shot-stopper should be an absolute pre-requisite of playing between the sticks in the PL.

Not sure what Brad Guzan did to be moved aside when Given had recovered from his injury.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: myf on April 09, 2012, 11:40:03 PM
Didn't we have the same problem last year though?
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: Chipsticks on April 09, 2012, 11:47:35 PM
From what I've seen, Guzan is no more authorative in his box and really struggles from crosses. Though I do agree that Given can suffer from this problem at times as well, though he's still a much better keeper than Guzan.

I think we'd really struggle to do better than Given anyway.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: hawkeye on April 09, 2012, 11:52:32 PM
I thought that with Guzan we were more solid at the back and particularly from corners, any one got the stats?
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: Pete3206 on April 09, 2012, 11:55:16 PM
I used to think the same about Brad Friedel. But, look at his performances for Spurs this season. Villa keepers are under so much pressure these days due to a weak midfield and poor defending. Given is a top goalkeeper.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: Somniloquism on April 09, 2012, 11:57:48 PM
From what I've seen, Guzan is no more authorative in his box and really struggles from crosses. Though I do agree that Given can suffer from this problem at times as well, though he's still a much better keeper than Guzan.

I think we'd really struggle to do better than Given anyway.

Guzan in his last showing, especially at Stoke, showed he had got over his fear of crosses he had in earlier matches a few years ago. Maybe his loan spell in the lower leagues helped. As to whether he is better then Given or not. It is hard to tell but one is on ~£70k and one is on £20k so is Given worth the extra £50k a week?
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: TheSandman on April 10, 2012, 12:17:05 AM
I did say something to this effect before we signed him.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: PaulMcGrathsNo5Shirt on April 10, 2012, 12:33:04 AM
The majority of the goals we have conceded from set pieces come of a result of the ball not being dealt with at the near post, no keeper in the world uses that as their starting position.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: The Left Side on April 10, 2012, 12:47:27 AM
I don't think he will be sold for one minute, AM loves him.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: littlevillain on April 10, 2012, 01:20:07 AM
for me his biggest weakness is his kicking!, abysmal.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: Vancouver on April 10, 2012, 01:29:42 AM
I wish that he would come out for a cross and smash James Collins in the back of the head
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: villadelph on April 10, 2012, 05:53:32 AM
Given's top class for me. He's not a big guy so getting off his line is more difficult. If he's  "great shot stopper" I'd rather him stay on his line and try to make a save than come up painfully short when punching a cross.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: Ian. on April 10, 2012, 06:49:01 AM
Didn't we have the same problem last year though?
We have since we stopped playing 3 CB's along the back. It has got even worse this year though. We have let in more than anyone else I'm sure.
I'm not sure if its a problem with the keeper or the defenders to be honest but it is a massive problem. If every match the commentator is mentioning our weakness I'm sure any team that plays us will try and win corners, free-kicks and throw-ins and have a massive belief they will score from it.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: Dave on April 10, 2012, 08:23:55 AM
Given's top class for me. He's not a big guy so getting off his line is more difficult. If he's  "great shot stopper" I'd rather him stay on his line and try to make a save than come up painfully short when punching a cross.
If he's coming up 'painfully short' in any area of his game (which he is) then he's hardly 'top class' is he?

It's not like we're in the position to be that picky about a lot of positions so it's not the end of the world, but Given is precisely what I thought we were getting in the summer. A fantastic shot-stopper who is very mediocre at most other aspects of goalkeeping.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: Archie on April 10, 2012, 08:29:53 AM
It is true that Given is  a good shot stopper but  struggles from crosses,  but he can't be the problem, as he is at his first year in claret and blue, and we have been conceding goals from set pieces since three years. The prpblem is the the CB can't defend on set pieces.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: eastie on April 10, 2012, 08:32:17 AM
Given's top class for me. He's not a big guy so getting off his line is more difficult. If he's  "great shot stopper" I'd rather him stay on his line and try to make a save than come up painfully short when punching a cross.
If he's coming up 'painfully short' in any area of his game (which he is) then he's hardly 'top class' is he?

It's not like we're in the position to be that picky about a lot of positions so it's not the end of the world, but Given is precisely what I thought we were getting the summer. A fantastic shot-stopper who is very mediocre at most other aspects of goalkeeping.

You are saying given is very mediocre at most aspects of goalkeeping ? This coming from someone who last summer was singing the plaudits of brad guzan- ridiculous dave !
shay given is one of the few reasons we are out of the bottom 3 right now and saved us many points this season.

You never wanted him here in the 1st place.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: Dave on April 10, 2012, 08:37:15 AM
Given's top class for me. He's not a big guy so getting off his line is more difficult. If he's  "great shot stopper" I'd rather him stay on his line and try to make a save than come up painfully short when punching a cross.
If he's coming up 'painfully short' in any area of his game (which he is) then he's hardly 'top class' is he?

It's not like we're in the position to be that picky about a lot of positions so it's not the end of the world, but Given is precisely what I thought we were getting the summer. A fantastic shot-stopper who is very mediocre at most other aspects of goalkeeping.

You are saying given is very mediocre at most aspects of goalkeeping ? This coming from someone who last summer was singing the plaudits of brad guzan- ridiculous dave !


I'm struggling to see which bit is ridiculous. Our greatest period of defensive stability this season came with Guzan in goal rather than Given. They were playing behind the same defence, so what do you put that down to?

If you want to let us know which other bits of goalkeeping Given excels at apart from shot-stopping, feel free to make us a list.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: Mazrim on April 10, 2012, 08:38:00 AM
He does exactly what Friedel did - stay on his line, but he's slightly more agile and a better shot stopper.
We could expect better but its not as vital as other positions and I cant see him being dropped any time soon. It's important to get a really good number 2 until Siegrist is ready for senior action in a couple of years.
I'd like Guzan to stay but I reckon he will do one.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: eastie on April 10, 2012, 08:41:54 AM
The problem is the defence , not shay given, he has been a top keeper for over a decade , hardly mediocre , yes he struggles at times on crosses but who doesnt , shay given is our best keeper since bozzy.

we need a total new back 4 in the summer but i have no worries about the keeper.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: ozzjim on April 10, 2012, 08:48:29 AM
Guzan will rightly go, I think he has the potential to become a top keeper in the mould of Freidal, and Given is blocking him now. If it were me I would sell Given and play Brad Jnr, but we won't do that, Given has a 5 year deal on 50k a week, so we have to defend in a way which makes up for his complete lack of authority on crosses.


Peter was spot on above though, we concede set piece goals in the main through an inability to get a blocker on the near post. We are a fairly little team in truth, and the 2 centre backs often end up with people having the run on them as the ball comes across. Heskey when on the field should be near post with 1 aim, but for some reason rarely is used like that. I would love a couple of our signings this summer in midfield and upfront to be 6"2 plus, to give us that extra height in there.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: Ron Manager on April 10, 2012, 08:55:21 AM
Given is Burridge...in disguise!
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: UK Redsox on April 10, 2012, 08:58:52 AM
There was one incident yesterday when Baker could have let the ball run to Given but it appeared that the keeper did not give the defender any instructions, so Baker did the right thing and put the ball out of play.

Given's command/communication appears lacking.

Not sure that Brad Jr is any better though
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: picicata on April 10, 2012, 09:07:02 AM
Great shot stopper? Yes. Great Goalkeeper? No. He doesn't communicate and organise his defence well enough, along with his obvious failings at crosses, to be considered a great keeper.

However, as we are a club that now aspire to be mid table at best he is good enough for where we are, although I still think it was madness giving him a 5 year contract!
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: philthebar on April 10, 2012, 09:13:11 AM
I am getting fed up of saying this;

He does not command the area
He does not guide/talk to his defenders enough
He does not come for crosses
His distribution is poor.

He is a good shot stopper, but how many of those shots have come from the opposition picking the ball up from our defensive headers, when the keeper should have either taken the ball himself or directed the centre half to try to clear the ball in a certain direction.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: ROBBO on April 10, 2012, 09:13:58 AM
You can count the number of keepers that dominate their space on one hand the reason being the opposition place a forward immediately in forn of him to stop his run, a few years back it would be penalised for obstruction but it's gone the way of shirt pulling and holding on. He saved a couple against Pool that not many would have had the reflexes to save, of all our problems he comes way down the list.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: SashasGrandad on April 10, 2012, 09:16:08 AM
Yesterday would have been a good time to play Guzan.

Given is good at shot stopping but Stoke don't shoot.

Brad would have been better dealing with the rough stuff.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: eastie on April 10, 2012, 09:16:29 AM
You can count the number of keepers that dominate their space on one hand the reason being the opposition place a forward immediately in forn of him to stop his run, a few years back it would be penalised for obstruction but it's gone the way of shirt pulling and holding on. He saved a couple against Pool that not many would have had the reflexes to save, of all our problems he comes way down the list.

This.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: eastie on April 10, 2012, 09:18:28 AM
Yesterday would have been a good time to play Guzan.

Given is good at shot stopping but Stoke don't shoot.

Brad would have been better dealing with the rough stuff.

In 35 yrs watching villa guzan is the worst keeper on crosses i have ever seen down here -stoke would have had a field day against him.

Admittedly he has improved since last season but not good enough to be a number one keeper at premier level in my view.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: garyfouroaks on April 10, 2012, 09:24:10 AM
I used to think the same about Brad Friedel. But, look at his performances for Spurs this season. Villa keepers are under so much pressure these days due to a weak midfield and poor defending. Given is a top goalkeeper.

I agree.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: philthebar on April 10, 2012, 09:41:31 AM
You can count the number of keepers that dominate their space on one hand the reason being the opposition place a forward immediately in forn of him to stop his run, a few years back it would be penalised for obstruction but it's gone the way of shirt pulling and holding on. He saved a couple against Pool that not many would have had the reflexes to save, of all our problems he comes way down the list.
Add to my list the inability to muscle his way through the opposition.   ;)

They used to put a big guy in front on me when I started in goal in the eary 60's, nothing new there.

Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: ozzjim on April 10, 2012, 10:02:32 AM
Yesterday would have been a good time to play Guzan.

Given is good at shot stopping but Stoke don't shoot.

Brad would have been better dealing with the rough stuff.

In 35 yrs watching villa guzan is the worst keeper on crosses i have ever seen down here -stoke would have had a field day against him.

Admittedly he has improved since last season but not good enough to be a number one keeper at premier level in my view.

This the Guzan that AT Stoke, who would have had a field day, kept a clean sheet by coming and taking crosses and taking the pressure off his back 4?
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: ormskirkvillan on April 10, 2012, 10:04:57 AM
Given is a great shot stopper and a good keeper.  The problem is that he does not dominate his defence. Our back 4 needs someone to get them by the scruff of the neck and tell them what to do, when to clear the ball, when they have time etc. I did a Uefa coaching course and there were a few former pros on it and a number said that if Given was louder he would be world class. The problem is you either have that or you don't, you can't really coach that.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: luke25 on April 10, 2012, 10:06:22 AM
Yesterday would have been a good time to play Guzan.

Given is good at shot stopping but Stoke don't shoot.

Brad would have been better dealing with the rough stuff.

In 35 yrs watching villa guzan is the worst keeper on crosses i have ever seen down here -stoke would have had a field day against him.

Admittedly he has improved since last season but not good enough to be a number one keeper at premier level in my view.
I don't think he's as bad on crosses as alot make out, it was only that 2nd leg against Blackburn were he had a shocker.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: eastie on April 10, 2012, 10:13:06 AM
Yesterday would have been a good time to play Guzan.

Given is good at shot stopping but Stoke don't shoot.

Brad would have been better dealing with the rough stuff.

In 35 yrs watching villa guzan is the worst keeper on crosses i have ever seen down here -stoke would have had a field day against him.

Admittedly he has improved since last season but not good enough to be a number one keeper at premier level in my view.
I don't think he's as bad on crosses as alot make out, it was only that 2nd leg against Blackburn were he had a shocker.

point taken, that blackburn game was awful but although guzan has improved hes not a number one at this level in my view, im happy to stick with shay.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: nigel on April 10, 2012, 10:26:57 AM
I wish that he would come out for a cross and smash James Collins in the back of the head
I think James Collins would like that too! Coming out for a cross that is  :)
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: john e on April 10, 2012, 11:04:35 AM
i would go with Guzan, and have always said that, for people to keep banging on about the Blackburn game is rediculous, Friedal himself missed a few in the air last season and Given who is very good is more yesterdays man whereas Guzan is the future.

experience over youth, this is the same desision AM has to make when he has a fit squad to pick from, and he goes with experience nearly every time, where i would take the oposite view

Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: darren woolley on April 10, 2012, 11:33:24 AM
I would still have Shay as my number one.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: villanic on April 10, 2012, 12:37:00 PM
Given is a very good keeper but I don’t think he is the same keeper he was at Newcastle and doesn’t seem to have the confidence to come and get crosses.

I think he has changed as a keeper since being dropped by Citeh and playing with our back four is not going to help get any confidence back.

I thought Guzan played really well when he came in earlier in the season and seems that we are on a mission to slash the wage bill I would not mind if Given went and Guzan got offered a new contract which would free up wages to strengthen in more important areas.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: Dave on April 10, 2012, 12:45:00 PM
Yesterday would have been a good time to play Guzan.

Given is good at shot stopping but Stoke don't shoot.

Brad would have been better dealing with the rough stuff.

In 35 yrs watching villa guzan is the worst keeper on crosses i have ever seen down here -stoke would have had a field day against him.
Even though when Guzan played against Stoke earlier this season we looked far more comfortable than Given looked yesterday. What do you put that down to?

As for not wanting him in the first place, I am still exactly where I was back in the summer. I think he's a solid keeper who makes up for short-comings in some areas of his game by excelling at others. It's what he always has done and exactly what he has done for us this season. The overall consensus on this thread seems to back that up pretty well.

As Mazrim says, we could probably do better but it's fairly low on our list of priorities. I just don't think he's some sort of goalkeeping Superman like you incorrectly do.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: PaulWinch again on April 10, 2012, 02:31:00 PM
He's not the best around, but he's pretty good and certainly good enough for us at the moment. I'd say this is a very low priority position.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: TheSandman on April 10, 2012, 02:37:34 PM
The problem is the defence , not shay given, he has been a top keeper for over a decade , hardly mediocre , yes he struggles at times on crosses but who doesnt , shay given is our best keeper since bozzy.

we need a total new back 4 in the summer but i have no worries about the keeper.

The problem has been the defence at every club Given has been at. Newcastle were often laughed at for their comedy defending and when Given was at City Lescott and Toure often looked very poor in front of him. Why has he never played in front of a competent back four? Maybe his own weaknesses as a goalkeeper have exacerbated those of his back four. However, as he is such a good shotstopper these tend not to be noticed as stopping shots are what is tended to be highlighted when talking about a goalkeeper.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: eastie on April 10, 2012, 02:49:19 PM
The problem is the defence , not shay given, he has been a top keeper for over a decade , hardly mediocre , yes he struggles at times on crosses but who doesnt , shay given is our best keeper since bozzy.

we need a total new back 4 in the summer but i have no worries about the keeper.

The problem has been the defence at every club Given has been at. Newcastle were often laughed at for their comedy defending and when Given was at City Lescott and Toure often looked very poor in front of him. Why has he never played in front of a competent back four? Maybe his own weaknesses as a goalkeeper have exacerbated those of his back four. However, as he is such a good shotstopper these tend not to be noticed as stopping shots are what is tended to be highlighted when talking about a goalkeeper.
.

If he had played in front of a competent back four id expect to concede far more goals- id much prefer him between the sticks please than in front of the defence!
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: pedro25 on April 10, 2012, 02:54:02 PM
I'd snap up the Wolves keeper when they drop and let Sunderland or similar have Given in a heartbeat.  Would help drop the wage bill also.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: PaulWinch again on April 10, 2012, 02:56:05 PM
I'd snap up the Wolves keeper when they drop and let Sunderland or similar have Given in a heartbeat.  Would help drop the wage bill also.

Hennessey? you serious? he's bloody terrible.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: eastie on April 10, 2012, 02:58:36 PM
Id snap up jarvis from wolves and maybe team up johnson with dann in defence as they were outstanding together for blues until dann  was injured.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: Mazrim on April 10, 2012, 03:05:36 PM
Gordon and Kuszczak will be Bosmans this summer.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: Percy McCarthy on April 10, 2012, 03:20:06 PM
I wonder what has changed tactically from the time we were really good at defending set-pieces, to the last two years, when we are unbelievably shit at it?
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: PeterWithesShin on April 10, 2012, 03:25:26 PM
I wonder what has changed tactically from the time we were really good at defending set-pieces, to the last two years, when we are unbelievably shit at it?

Maybe having Carlos at RB really did help at set pieces as it meant when defending set pieces we had 3 CB defending, as well as Carew who was useful back there.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: TheSandman on April 10, 2012, 03:26:57 PM
I wonder what has changed tactically from the time we were really good at defending set-pieces, to the last two years, when we are unbelievably shit at it?

I think it is because we have switched from man to man to that useless zonal marking. Space never scored a goal.








;)
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: eastie on April 10, 2012, 03:34:28 PM
Steve walford was a decent defensive coach- something sadly lacking recently even though we have a manager who played there for club and country.

We seem to have an overload of coacheswho were midfielders and maybe need a specialist defensive coach, martin laursen would be a good choice.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: Percy McCarthy on April 10, 2012, 03:35:46 PM
Zogman: Almost correct, but the wrong way round, as you know. ;-)
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: Rip Van We Go Again on April 10, 2012, 03:46:59 PM
I'd snap up the Wolves keeper when they drop and let Sunderland or similar have Given in a heartbeat.  Would help drop the wage bill also.

Hennessey? you serious? he's bloody terrible.
Agree.
He's been a complete nightmare this season, numerous balls-up's.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: Vanilla on April 10, 2012, 03:52:27 PM
I used to think the same about Brad Friedel. But, look at his performances for Spurs this season. Villa keepers are under so much pressure these days due to a weak midfield and poor defending. Given is a top goalkeeper.

Have to agree with that. You only have to look at De Gea at Manure. When they were wobbling at the beginning of the season he was getting all the stick. Now they have hit their stride and he is barely called upon, everyone is starting to think his performances have improved, when really he could spend most of the games picking his nose.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: supertom on April 10, 2012, 04:00:19 PM
Every keeper makes mistakes. For me, and most pundits would say the same, Givens had a good season. He's had an awful defence in front of him and he's made some cracking stops. We haven't conceded masses of goals in fairness. Our defensive record is one of the "best" outside the top 8 and in fairness, that's largely down to Givens shot stopping because we've looked poorly organised. The set piece issue shouldn't be put on his shoulders, because we had the problem last season. Something isn't right. Our senior defenders have been largely woeful (Carlos aside), whilst youngens will always make errors.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 10, 2012, 07:27:11 PM
Same as Friedel for me.

Pretty good shot stopper and exactly like Friedel usually parries the ball back into the six yard box but rarely comes off his line and when he does he didn't cope well at all yesterday.

Trying to think of the last keeper we had who'd come off his line and claim crosses on a regular basis...Sorensen would either do it all the time or never in games, Bozzy was frequently routed to his line, I'd have to say David James but of course as in the cup final he'd do it on one occasion too many.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: Villanation on April 10, 2012, 07:43:29 PM
Given's top class for me. He's not a big guy so getting off his line is more difficult. If he's  "great shot stopper" I'd rather him stay on his line and try to make a save than come up painfully short when punching a cross.
If he's coming up 'painfully short' in any area of his game (which he is) then he's hardly 'top class' is he?

It's not like we're in the position to be that picky about a lot of positions so it's not the end of the world, but Given is precisely what I thought we were getting the summer. A fantastic shot-stopper who is very mediocre at most other aspects of goalkeeping.

You are saying given is very mediocre at most aspects of goalkeeping ? This coming from someone who last summer was singing the plaudits of brad guzan- ridiculous dave !
shay given is one of the few reasons we are out of the bottom 3 right now and saved us many points this season.

You never wanted him here in the 1st place.

Agree with this, in fact if you look across the season and how many times Given has stopped what would have been absolute nailed on goals Villa would be getting relegated right now, I would agree he is starting to look a bit dodgy of late, such as the cross yesterday, but then again where is the man's defence.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 10, 2012, 08:10:03 PM
Yesterday would have been a good time to play Guzan.

Given is good at shot stopping but Stoke don't shoot.

Brad would have been better dealing with the rough stuff.

In 35 yrs watching villa guzan is the worst keeper on crosses i have ever seen down here -stoke would have had a field day against him.

Admittedly he has improved since last season but not good enough to be a number one keeper at premier level in my view.

You're having a laugh, Guzan was excellent THIS season at the Britannia.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: ozzjim on April 10, 2012, 08:15:57 PM
Soccer, we have pointed this out a number of times since his post and it has been ignored. I think that game did not happen the way we recall it.

I actually think it is a real shame Guzan will go, and I would not be shocked to see him pitch up as number 1 at Sunderland come August, and be a revelation.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: Big Dick Edwards on April 10, 2012, 08:16:09 PM
In 35 yrs watching villa guzan is the worst keeper on crosses i have ever seen down here -stoke would have had a field day against him.

Does 35 years just about exclude John Burridge? He wasn't nicknamed Dracula for nothing..

Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 10, 2012, 08:17:29 PM
Guzan will rightly go, I think he has the potential to become a top keeper in the mould of Freidal, and Given is blocking him now. If it were me I would sell Given and play Brad Jnr, but we won't do that, Given has a 5 year deal on 50k a week, so we have to defend in a way which makes up for his complete lack of authority on crosses.


Peter was spot on above though, we concede set piece goals in the main through an inability to get a blocker on the near post. We are a fairly little team in truth, and the 2 centre backs often end up with people having the run on them as the ball comes across. Heskey when on the field should be near post with 1 aim, but for some reason rarely is used like that. I would love a couple of our signings this summer in midfield and upfront to be 6"2 plus, to give us that extra height in there.

Under MON, Carew would always be put on the near post for Corners to flick away. It worked, we didn't concede that many when he was fit.

When McLeish brought on Heskey at 2-2 against Chelsea, I thought he'd adopt this position when they had a corner but for the 2nd Ivanovic goal he was somewhere near the back post!
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: brian green on April 10, 2012, 08:36:41 PM
Given does not command his area the way he should and Stoke yesterday were pushing him about like a boy during their set piece siege operations but Budgie was like one of those  football game figures that you whizz round with handles he genuinely only ever went from from side to side never forward or back.   He is in there with Kreufeld -Jacobs and Tourette as the definer of an incurable disease, in his case Budgie's Disease, to be incapable of forward or backward locomotion.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: Vegas on April 10, 2012, 10:04:43 PM
Shay's excellent at the old shot stopping malarkey, which is worth something as a goalie you have to say.  As for "every goalie in the premier league should be able to do that", that's like saying "every midfielder should be able to pass" - yes clearly, but there are still better and worse examples.  Shay's right up there on shot stopping, and isn't that bad at the other stuff.

Guzan's played pretty well too, but for me is still "plucky underdog" rather than "obvious first choice premier league keeper".

If my life depended on Villa winning next week, I would choose Given. If I was picking a goalie to give a new 4 year contract to, it's Guzan.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: joe_c on April 10, 2012, 10:11:56 PM
From The Fiver (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/series/thefiver) when he joined back in July.

Quote
ANY GIVEN MONDAY

In his increasingly rare moments of clarity, the Fiver's drink-addled, pig-toting knobbly-stick-waving Irish cousin Theme Pub O'Fiver has a theory about Shay Given from the County Donegal. To borrow a phrase from his opinionated champagne-swilling brother in arms Eamon Dunphy, Theme Pub is prepared to concede that while Shay Given from the County Donegal is a good goalkeeper, he is not a great goalkeeper. It is a point of view that has earned poor auld Theme Pub the opprobrium and slaps of many compatriots who worship at the altar of St Shay of Given and will not hear a bad word said about the goalkeeper, who hails from the County Donegal.

What Theme Pub has noticed, albeit through half-open bloodshot eyes, is that Shay Given from the County Donegal has played behind some terrible defences in his time; terrible defences starring players who became a laughing stock when they played in front of Given, but strangely went on to resurrect their careers elsewhere, lining up in back fours that played in front of goalkeepers that conspicuously weren't Shay Given from the County Donegal. Yes, Titus Bramble – the Fiver is looking at you. And you Fabricio Coloccini and Joleon Lescott … the rest of you know who you are.

But while Given has been described by Roberto Mancini as "one of the five best goalkeepers in the world", he is not the best goalkeeper at Manchester City and has subsequently been shipped out. As is customary, no club that Jamie Redknapp would describe as "top top top top" has come in for him, so instead he has been sentenced to five years at Aston Villa for a fee believed to be in the region of £4m. It's a good bit of business for Villa, who have got themselves a goalie renowned as "a great shot-stopper", but whose ability to command his six-yard box is a mite questionable.

"Aston Villa is a huge football club and I'm really excited to be joining," said Given upon inking his contract, as you do. "I'm looking forward to training and playing with the players here. They're a good bunch of lads, very talented and I know several of them already which will help." Be afraid Richard Dunne and James Collins. Be very, very afraid. For that man in green anchored to his goalline not coming for that cross is Shay Given from the County Donegal.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: ozzjim on April 10, 2012, 10:27:54 PM
Guzan will rightly go, I think he has the potential to become a top keeper in the mould of Freidal, and Given is blocking him now. If it were me I would sell Given and play Brad Jnr, but we won't do that, Given has a 5 year deal on 50k a week, so we have to defend in a way which makes up for his complete lack of authority on crosses.


Peter was spot on above though, we concede set piece goals in the main through an inability to get a blocker on the near post. We are a fairly little team in truth, and the 2 centre backs often end up with people having the run on them as the ball comes across. Heskey when on the field should be near post with 1 aim, but for some reason rarely is used like that. I would love a couple of our signings this summer in midfield and upfront to be 6"2 plus, to give us that extra height in there.

Under MON, Carew would always be put on the near post for Corners to flick away. It worked, we didn't concede that many when he was fit.

When McLeish brought on Heskey at 2-2 against Chelsea, I thought he'd adopt this position when they had a corner but for the 2nd Ivanovic goal he was somewhere near the back post!

Said the same in the match thread at the time, why on earth you bring Heskey on and then don't plant him front post to clear out the ball is beyond me.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: Dave on April 10, 2012, 10:32:39 PM
I'd very much like to think Joe that you have a database of Fivers arranged by subject ready to bring out a little vignette whenever the situation called for it.

If you've not, I might start one.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: Oscar Arce on April 11, 2012, 09:17:36 AM
I said when we signed Given that he really wasn't very good, a statement that got a reaction of 'you don't know what you're talking about' from most people.
As a shot-stopper he is excellent, his saves look great on the highlights on Match of the Day, and this is how he's built his reputation.
If you look at old videos of him for Newcastle and Eire, you will see that they all defend very deep, and concede a lot of ground further up the pitch, and are usually always under pressure.
He simply won't come for a cross, and what defenders want is for a keeper to be positive and come and take pressure off them, it gives them and the team confidence...look at what happened against Stoke when he came for one, he dropped it at the Holte End.
He also doesn't seem to communicate with defenders well, again look at the top keepers, they are always organising, I'm afraid Shay doesn't do this well enough.
It's no coincidence that Spurs look far more solid with Friedel, and I think we will always be under pressure with Given in our goal.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: Percy McCarthy on April 11, 2012, 09:32:54 AM
It continues to amaze me that there has been a fundamental change in how we defend set-pieces that has seen us fall from the best team in the country at it to the worst, and people still blame the players. Friedel never came off his line either.

Seriously, you might as well blame the tea lady.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: Rip Van We Go Again on April 11, 2012, 09:56:44 AM
It continues to amaze me that there has been a fundamental change in how we defend set-pieces that has seen us fall from the best team in the country at it to the worst, and people still blame the players. Friedel never came off his line either.

Seriously, you might as well blame the tea lady.
Do clubs still have tea ladies?

I always wonder as every time a club is in crisis the media inevitably say.

'No one is safe from redundancy, from the Manager right down to the tea lady.'
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 11, 2012, 11:00:19 AM
It continues to amaze me that there has been a fundamental change in how we defend set-pieces that has seen us fall from the best team in the country at it to the worst, and people still blame the players. Friedel never came off his line either.

Seriously, you might as well blame the tea lady.
Do clubs still have tea ladies?

I always wonder as every time a club is in crisis the media inevitably say.

'No one is safe from redundancy, from the Manager right down to the tea lady.'

They still pay weekly wages, so why not?
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: ktvillan on April 11, 2012, 11:17:19 AM
I always liked Given as a keeper and I think he is one of the best shot stoppers around, better than Friedel or Guzan.  But he is weaker at coming for crosses than I thought.  Having said that Friedel often didn't come for them either, and when he did he had a tendency to flap like a big girl's blouse at quite a few of them.  Guzan came for several crosses in the FA Cup game agains Blackburn a couple of seasons ago and pretty much fumbled or dropped every one of them.  It was a horror show, and he did likewise in a couple of other appearances. He seems to have improved in that respect, but I'm still not convinced he would "command the area" any better than the other two.   If Given is to blame for our poor defending of corners, what was the defence's excuse last season when we were just as bad?  I still reckon we should have gone for Ben Foster.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: N'ZMAV on April 11, 2012, 11:23:51 AM
Glued to his line.
Title: Re: Shay Given
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 11, 2012, 04:17:12 PM
Command of your area is something that should improve with age. I remember when Joe Hart first play for Man. City he was flapping at pretty much every corner. That loan spell at SHA did the trick and he's one of the best around. De Gea is slowing improving his command at Manure.

If a Keeper gets to his late 20s and still can't do it, that suggests to me he just wants to leave it to his defenders in the six yard box so don't expect any change from Given, too set in his ways.
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