Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: PheaseyVillan on March 20, 2012, 06:10:01 PM
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Everyone knows (a) we're safe and (b) McLeish is staying. As for the (c), well, we don't know where we're exactly going.
I want to know Villans, what would you do this summer?
Would you build a squad around the likes of future captain Craig Gardner, Chris Herd and Ciaran Clark?
I think it's time to go back to basics and get rid of all the deadwood that O'Neill proudly left us. Heskey, Guzan and Cuellar's deals are up. While Collins, Dunne and Warnock's deals expire next summer. Offload them!
I'd bring in Scott Dann - he's cool, calm and collected at the back.
I would like us to expand our scouting network throughout Europe and hopefully sign a couple of gems.
Anyway, McDoughnut needs to hit the ground running next season. And let's face it, it's going to be hard!
As for this season it's Arsenal, Chelsea & Liverpool coming up. I'm not expecting much. However I'd love us to beat Stoke and Sunderland at home and WBA away. That would do me fine!
There's 30 points up for grabs - I think we'll get 12 from 10 games.
Comments please,
Cheers
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I want to know Villans, what would you do this summer?
Comments please,
Cheers
I'm planning on getting very drunk and watching a bit of cricket. Might have a barbecue if the weather's nice. If I can afford it I might go on holiday but will most likely just have enough for a fortnight off watching the European Championships in the pub.
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Craig Gardner as captain? I'd rather give it young Gary and not bother poaching Craig back from Sunderland.
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I'm a prat. I meant Gary!
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Would you build a squad around the likes of future captain Craig Gardner, Chris Herd and Ciaran Clark?
I'm sure our pillock of an owner would be happy with that but it would be relegation all the way.
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I'm planning on getting very drunk and watching a bit of cricket. Might have a barbecue if the weather's nice. If I can afford it I might go on holiday but will most likely just have enough for a fortnight off watching the European Championships in the pub.
No Euro 2012 ?? Really ?
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Everyone knows (a) we're safe and (b) McLeish is staying. As for the (c), well, we don't know where we're exactly going.
I want to know Villans, what would you do this summer?
I'm doing my bleedin' A-levels so not a lot ;)
As for the Villa, I'm genuinely warming to McLeish, or 'McShit'/ 'Big Feck' as I've referred to him in months gone by. At times we've genuinely looked like we want to play attacking football, and the first half of the Blackburn game and the majority of the Fulham game prove that, I stand by the widely contested opinion that 'McLeish can only play defensive' rumour is utter bollocks at best, after all what are you gonna expect when he was managing a team where the standout players were Craig Gardner and the Goalkeeper.
I reckon we could build a squad around youth, of which we all recognise we have a fair crop of, and keep a few of the experienced heads in Bent, Given, Petrov and a few others to keep them in check. It would certainly help give us a team-spirit and squad harmony that has been somewhat lacking in seasons gone by.
It's clear, however, that we're going to need to invest in at least one solid full-back, and perhaps a bit more creativity going forward, but other than that I think we have the potential to create a good, young, passing youth squad.
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Now we are safe, in the remaining games this season i'd like McLeish to show us why he should be our manager next season. 15th place doesn't do it for me.
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Now we are safe, in the remaining games this season i'd like McLeish to show us why he should be our manager next season. 15th place doesn't do it for me.
Agree. I think we'd all like to see Weimann get a fair crack of the whip until the end of the season to see what the lad can do.
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For me:
-Carry on bringing through the kids.
-Sell the bad eggs in our squad, and the incompetents. N'Zog, Ireland, Dunne, Heskey, Warnock.
-Bring in some reliable, hard working experienced players. I'd love to see us get Dempsey. He might well have more attractive suitors though (not in this country mind as I don't think he's top 5 standard). Someone like Kevin Nolan too. Robbie Keane. For me, bring in a decent left back, centre-back, a combative midfielder and a couple of creative minded midielders.
Build on the defence, and make Carlos the lynchpin because he's consistent and his attitude is first rate. We look more solid now and with a few tweaks that'll be sorted.
Work on the midfield. We need everyone to work hard, impact the game over 90 minutes. None of this "Ireland was good for 10 minutes" bollocks.
Do that and we have the forwards to put the ball in the net.
Job done, and we'll win more than we lose comfortably and be nicely top half. We should forget now about top 6. It's not gonna happen. But if McLeish can get us playing to the best of our ability and his potential best then we can't complain. Then maybe we'll be lucky in one of the cups.
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Pray.
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Cuellar needs to stay.
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Cuellar needs to stay.
Agreed, I think it'd make more sense to get rid of Dunne if we're getting rid of centre-halves.
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Dunne is more of a centre-whole.
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Cuellar needs to stay and we need to adopt a passing game to make us progress and actually be entertaining. If he doesn't do the latter he is absolutely guaranteed to fail.
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I'd like Carlos to stay but he may take his opportunity to get out at the end of the season.
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As for the Villa, I'm genuinely warming to McLeish, or 'McShit'/ 'Big Feck' as I've referred to him in months gone by. At times we've genuinely looked like we want to play attacking football, and the first half of the Blackburn game and the majority of the Fulham game prove that, I stand by the widely contested opinion that 'McLeish can only play defensive' rumour is utter bollocks at best,
With all due respect, a game and a half of decent football is far outweighed by the turgid dross we've had to endure in the majority of all the others.
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As for the Villa, I'm genuinely warming to McLeish, or 'McShit'/ 'Big Feck' as I've referred to him in months gone by. At times we've genuinely looked like we want to play attacking football, and the first half of the Blackburn game and the majority of the Fulham game prove that, I stand by the widely contested opinion that 'McLeish can only play defensive' rumour is utter bollocks at best,
With all due respect, a game and a half of decent football is far outweighed by the turgid dross we've had to endure in the majority of all the others.
Add Arsenal to that.
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For me:
-Carry on bringing through the kids.
-Sell the bad eggs in our squad, and the incompetents. N'Zog, Ireland, Dunne, Heskey, Warnock.
-Bring in some reliable, hard working experienced players. I'd love to see us get Dempsey. He might well have more attractive suitors though (not in this country mind as I don't think he's top 5 standard). Someone like Kevin Nolan too. Robbie Keane. For me, bring in a decent left back, centre-back, a combative midfielder and a couple of creative minded midielders.
Build on the defence, and make Carlos the lynchpin because he's consistent and his attitude is first rate. We look more solid now and with a few tweaks that'll be sorted.
Work on the midfield. We need everyone to work hard, impact the game over 90 minutes. None of this "Ireland was good for 10 minutes" bollocks.
Do that and we have the forwards to put the ball in the net.
Job done, and we'll win more than we lose comfortably and be nicely top half. We should forget now about top 6. It's not gonna happen. But if McLeish can get us playing to the best of our ability and his potential best then we can't complain. Then maybe we'll be lucky in one of the cups.
' bring some reliable, hard working experienced players in '
yeah, that'l bring the crowds back
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For me:
-Carry on bringing through the kids.
-Sell the bad eggs in our squad, and the incompetents. N'Zog, Ireland, Dunne, Heskey, Warnock.
-Bring in some reliable, hard working experienced players. I'd love to see us get Dempsey. He might well have more attractive suitors though (not in this country mind as I don't think he's top 5 standard). Someone like Kevin Nolan too. Robbie Keane. For me, bring in a decent left back, centre-back, a combative midfielder and a couple of creative minded midielders.
Build on the defence, and make Carlos the lynchpin because he's consistent and his attitude is first rate. We look more solid now and with a few tweaks that'll be sorted.
Work on the midfield. We need everyone to work hard, impact the game over 90 minutes. None of this "Ireland was good for 10 minutes" bollocks.
Do that and we have the forwards to put the ball in the net.
Job done, and we'll win more than we lose comfortably and be nicely top half. We should forget now about top 6. It's not gonna happen. But if McLeish can get us playing to the best of our ability and his potential best then we can't complain. Then maybe we'll be lucky in one of the cups.
' bring some reliable, hard working experienced players in '
yeah, that'l bring the crowds back
Better to have a balanced team than a load of show ponies.
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For me:
-Carry on bringing through the kids.
-Sell the bad eggs in our squad, and the incompetents. N'Zog, Ireland, Dunne, Heskey, Warnock.
-Bring in some reliable, hard working experienced players. I'd love to see us get Dempsey. He might well have more attractive suitors though (not in this country mind as I don't think he's top 5 standard). Someone like Kevin Nolan too. Robbie Keane. For me, bring in a decent left back, centre-back, a combative midfielder and a couple of creative minded midielders.
Build on the defence, and make Carlos the lynchpin because he's consistent and his attitude is first rate. We look more solid now and with a few tweaks that'll be sorted.
Work on the midfield. We need everyone to work hard, impact the game over 90 minutes. None of this "Ireland was good for 10 minutes" bollocks.
Do that and we have the forwards to put the ball in the net.
Job done, and we'll win more than we lose comfortably and be nicely top half. We should forget now about top 6. It's not gonna happen. But if McLeish can get us playing to the best of our ability and his potential best then we can't complain. Then maybe we'll be lucky in one of the cups.
' bring some reliable, hard working experienced players in '
yeah, that'l bring the crowds back
Better to have a balanced team than a load of show ponies.
i know your both right,
its just a statement that fills me with gloom, especially as you know they'l be his type of reliable hard working players
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Nothing wrong with that as long as there's a set of creative outlets encouraged to go for it.
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Nothing wrong with that as long as there's a set of creative outlets encouraged to go for it.
Correct.
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Clear out Dunne Heskey Warnock NZogbia,
Hutton and Collins replace if we can
Retain Stan, Cuellar to help bring the young guys through.
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As for the Villa, I'm genuinely warming to McLeish, or 'McShit'/ 'Big Feck' as I've referred to him in months gone by. At times we've genuinely looked like we want to play attacking football, and the first half of the Blackburn game and the majority of the Fulham game prove that, I stand by the widely contested opinion that 'McLeish can only play defensive' rumour is utter bollocks at best,
With all due respect, a game and a half of decent football is far outweighed by the turgid dross we've had to endure in the majority of all the others.
While there has been performances in which we've been utter, utter shite, I think there's more than enough performances to keep me in a blind state of paper-thin optimism.
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I do not have an opinion on what I would like to happen but this is what will happen.
Summer - Muddle, confusion and bargain basement acquisitions based on the fact that they are cheap and available not whether they fit is with any kind of plan or concept,
First half of next season up to Christmas - muddle and confusion.
Second half of next season - a fresh start with a new manager.
I am entirely in agreement with my son on the McLeish issue. Whenever anybody tries to work out exactly what McLeish is doing the manager and his closest associates protect themselves with the "you hate me because I came from Small Heath" defence. It is time now for Alex McLeish to show precisely what his plan for Villa is. I don't think he has one. I think he wings it from day to day from game to game. That is just my opinion.
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I do not have an opinion on what I would like to happen but this is what will happen.
Summer - Muddle, confusion and bargain basement acquisitions based on the fact that they are cheap and available not whether they fit is with any kind of plan or concept,
First half of next season up to Christmas - muddle and confusion.
Second half of next season - a fresh start with a new manager.
I am entirely in agreement with my son on the McLeish issue. Whenever anybody tries to work out exactly what McLeish is doing the manager and his closest associates protect themselves with the "you hate me because I came from Small Heath" defence. It is time now for Alex McLeish to show precisely what his plan for Villa is. I don't think he has one. I think he wings it from day to day from game to game. That is just my opinion.
And that is the biggest concern
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I do not have an opinion on what I would like to happen but this is what will happen.
Summer - Muddle, confusion and bargain basement acquisitions based on the fact that they are cheap and available not whether they fit is with any kind of plan or concept,
First half of next season up to Christmas - muddle and confusion.
Second half of next season - a fresh start with a new manager.
I am entirely in agreement with my son on the McLeish issue. Whenever anybody tries to work out exactly what McLeish is doing the manager and his closest associates protect themselves with the "you hate me because I came from Small Heath" defence. It is time now for Alex McLeish to show precisely what his plan for Villa is. I don't think he has one. I think he wings it from day to day from game to game. That is just my opinion.
Spot on, Brian.
All this "give him a preseason to bring in his own players etc". For what, just so another manager has to pick up the bits that don't fit into a team.
We have a run of poor games and then a reasonable game and then back to usual. Is that the sign of a manager that is progressing and building something.
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I want him to come up with a team that scores as many goals as Messi does. Not gonna happen, we will bumble along at just over a goal a game while he blames us for not liking where he came from.
If he stays I honestly believe we are going down or will be very close to it.
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Hi Fergal, they aint going to sack him, unless the ST sales are really atrocious. We can only hope that he does the right thing in terms of maturing the youngsters. But like you I fear the worst UTV
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I think McLeish will continue to buy/gather players who work hard but have no flair at all. This Brett Holman character, all I've read about is how hard he works, not about how creative he is and how he's gonna rip defences apart. I think we in for more grinding out of results rather than flair, attractive football under this Manager. In fact, anything with flair is likely to be sold, as McLeish will think they don't work hard enough for him.
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Now we are safe, in the remaining games this season i'd like McLeish to show us why he should be our manager next season. 15th place doesn't do it for me.
If you peruse opinions at the moment, it seems most Villa fans are singing 'Happy Days Are Hear Again' just because we got an Australian freebie.
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Cuellar is an enigma for me, he looks like a good defender but his distribution is seriously lacking. Though we have not seen enough of him at centre half and if he is genuine about staying he will need to take a pay cut as the current MON salary could be better spent and only Rangers came in for him last summer I believe?
We need to build on the younger players and add some quality as well as experience in the summer to support their development.
Dunne and Warnock cost the club around £100k per week and IMO are not good for the squad. They exposed themselves under Houllier last season as not committed to Villa and Dunne has been critical this season during live games which again, sends out the wrong message.
I would keep Ireland as he still has a lot to prove before his career, and earning potential, goes down the pan.
2/3 good attacking players, a true holding midfielder, get Makoun fit and motivated and allow the manager to sign Dann and another centre half and I think we can build on the current young crop coming through in Clark, Lichaj, Albrighton, Herd and Weimann.
Jury on Bannon is still out for me as he does not have a major impact on games in the Premiership.
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I also think he'll get rid of any of the older players this summer so he can lose their influence over the younger players. Throw the deck of cards up in the air, bring in a load of cheap bosmans and see how it all fits together. No plan, just get rid of the current older players so he can put his own influence on the squad. In other words, more shit, turgid football to watch, although we may not lose a lot.
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Now we are safe, in the remaining games this season i'd like McLeish to show us why he should be our manager next season. 15th place doesn't do it for me.
If you peruse opinions at the moment, it seems most Villa fans are singing 'Happy Days Are Hear Again' just because we got an Australian freebie.
There seems be a confusing volte face stance concerning McLeish on the basis of one good game against Fulham.
It will need a good run between now and the end of the season to convince me that the green roots are there.
Let's not forget that we're 15th, which is a sub standard performance from McLeish, to put it mildly.
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I think it's more than the Fulham game Fletch. For me, there have been intermittant flashes of good football since before Christmas. Bolton away, Arsenal twice, Chelsea, Bristol Rovers, Wolves, QPR, Newcastle, Blackburn, Fulham - all games within which we've looked like a decent side for at least one half. As DW said in one of the fanzines this season 'Its a straw - clutch it'.
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I think it's more than the Fulham game Fletch. For me, there have been intermittant flashes of good football since before Christmas. Bolton away, Arsenal twice, Chelsea, Bristol Rovers, Wolves, QPR, Newcastle, Blackburn, Fulham - all games within which we've looked like a decent side for at least one half. As DW said in one of the fanzines this season 'Its a straw - clutch it'.
Be interesting to see what approach he takes in the Arsenal, Chelsea games.
Shut up shop and keep the score down, or go for it?
I think if it's Spurs away style tactics, he'll lose whatever good faith he has left.
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Before scoring in the 93rd minute against Fulham, we'd played a decent first half against Blackburn and created 2 chances against Wigan. The 11 point gap has taken the pressure off him but he's still got a lot of convincing to do.
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Cuellar needs to stay and we need to adopt a passing game to make us progress and actually be entertaining. If he doesn't do the latter he is absolutely guaranteed to fail.
To be honest Paul, I actually think AMcL does try and play a passing game, It's just that some of our players aren't comfortable with it, so it looks poor.
We had the same last season, Houlier tried to change the style and was met with rebellion.
You have to remember that the majority of the squad is still MO'N's.
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Well let's hope that's the case and once he gets more of his own players in we can do it, but I'm sceptical.
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I suspect that McLeish's plan doesn't extend far past making us a tighter unit, drawing alot and hoping to nick the odd win here and there. That appears to be the way he likes to set up his teams.
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Get rid of our older players,ie Dunne, Collins, Warnock, Heskey, Petrov and replace them with some caring nicer older players. Play the kids that we have.
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Cuellar needs to stay and we need to adopt a passing game....
Is that what they call an oxymoron? I know what you mean though, the defence has looked more solid with Carlos in, but ultimately we could do with players in every position who are comfortable with a ball at their feet and know what to do with it.
I'd like to think McLeish will get his own players in and adopt an attacking, passing style. I have grave doubts that he has the capacity or the will to do it, even if backed financially. He just doesn't seem to have a consistent plan except to revert to "keep it tight". Unfortunately the only way he will leave over the next couple of years is if things go completely pear shaped, and even then it might not happen. After all he is such a nice man and Randy likes nice men. Perhaps we should prepare to be satisfied with mid-table mediocrity with the occasional decent performance.
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It's an interesting question.
Some good points already raised here, but I think one key is the issues raised in the N'Zogbia thread. We have a manager that values work ethic, and rightly so, so wants his flair players to work as hard as his 'water carriers'. If they don't, he'll err on the side of caution and try to keep us tight. Ashley Young, and not just due to ability, is a great example of this as he'll score and create, but also work just as hard running back towards his own goal. Brett Holman has a reputation for working hard also, yet is a creative outlet for his side.
Another issue is the dodgy defence and lack of a natural holding player. Both mean we lack a 'safety net' should we commit too many men forward. He's had to work with the defence he has due to money restrictions, so I'm hopeful Randy will back him in bringing a couple of new faces in there, with Warnock and Dunne going.
So what's his plan? I hope it's to build a more solid side that does the basics right, which should then allow the better players to go win us games.
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I think it's more than the Fulham game Fletch. For me, there have been intermittant flashes of good football since before Christmas. Bolton away, Arsenal twice, Chelsea, Bristol Rovers, Wolves, QPR, Newcastle, Blackburn, Fulham - all games within which we've looked like a decent side for at least one half. As DW said in one of the fanzines this season 'Its a straw - clutch it'.
Teams below us have shown similiar flashes, we need to do this for whole games and turn them into wins. Problem is that there is more bad stuff than good currently.
1 scrambled win against Fulham won't get my juices flowing.
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Nothing wrong with that as long as there's a set of creative outlets encouraged to go for it.
With all due respect, have you seen who is sat in the dugout pretending to be a manager?
We may have escaped the drop this year but I can see no light at the end of the tunnel. Given the brief he was given and the deal F'Eck is on there will be no sacking, not even next Christmas, unless we are 10 points adrift at the foot of the table.
I said when he was appointed if not relegated this year then next year, and the only brightness I can see on the horizon is that the promoted clubs will not be as good a vintage as this year's crop and we may have just enough to escape by the skin of our teeth again.
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Next season will see a changing of the guard in the squad, more of the same tactically and a mid table finish but with less worry over our league position than we have had this season.
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I said when he was appointed if not relegated this year then next year, and the only brightness I can see on the horizon is that the promoted clubs will not be as good a vintage as this year's crop and we may have just enough to escape by the skin of our teeth again.
The 'skin of our teeth' this year being an 11 point gap at present.
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I think the mood after Fulham is one of relief and also of resignation and acceptance that he's going to be around next season so we may as well hope he gets the shithouse squad sorted. Basically, McLeish is the overseer whilst we are flushing the O'Neill era largesse through the system and that's just how it is.
I don't like it now and I didn't when he was appointed but all you can do is make the best of it. Once we're financially strong again we can hopefully use the money far more wisely and also get some footballing expertise on the board to aid that.
What I'd do considering the money likely to be available (and the fact that Randy may be cautious in throwing resources at a manager with the sword of Damocles hanging over him) is what is probably going to happen. Weed out some high earning dross and get some motivated quality bosmans in with an eye on how they will compliment the youngsters. Like it or not, the youngsters are going to be the bedrock of the squad. I think a lot of them are up to it so the thought pleases me.
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I said when he was appointed if not relegated this year then next year, and the only brightness I can see on the horizon is that the promoted clubs will not be as good a vintage as this year's crop and we may have just enough to escape by the skin of our teeth again.
The 'skin of our teeth' this year being an 11 point gap at present.
Watch that gap disappear over the next few games. Blackburn will probably overhaul us; Bolton may well. The final table will probably see us in the bottom five making us bottom or next bottom to the 'middle of the table' bloc. A far cry from competing for top or next top of the 'middle of the table' bloc and the possibility of Champions league football.
Fizzy Pop anyone?
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I said when he was appointed if not relegated this year then next year, and the only brightness I can see on the horizon is that the promoted clubs will not be as good a vintage as this year's crop and we may have just enough to escape by the skin of our teeth again.
The 'skin of our teeth' this year being an 11 point gap at present.
Watch that gap disappear over the next few games. Blackburn will probably overhaul us; Bolton may well. The final table will probably see us in the bottom five making us bottom or next bottom to the 'middle of the table' bloc. A far cry from competing for top or next top of the 'middle of the table' bloc and the possibility of Champions league football.
Fizzy Pop anyone?
Do you walk around Bath with one of those big cardboard signs that says "The end of the world is nigh!"
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I thought McLeish's plan was to win nil nil?
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Fizzy Pop anyone?
No ta, don't drink Carling.
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That's a mighty powerful crystal ball you have there, mal.
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Yes, the relegation quagmire which, at one point, we were doing our best to be dragged into has been sidestepped comfortably. But is that enough? Finishing 12th-15th having largely played some of the worst football in the division?
If McLeish picks certain players, we do look a better team. But that's the players, deciding that for themselves, and they can't do that alone without the rest off the tactics being geared and designed to attack, and attack fluently. Besides, as Bielsa said once "a team who relies on its soloists is no good, because when God doesn't turn them on they're useless". With that approach, the absolute best we can hope for is to be as good as the sum of some of our parts, and never more. That, to me, is the impact of a substandard manager.
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That's a mighty powerful crystal ball you have there, mal.
We are 5 pts ahead of Blackburn. We face Arsenal and Liverpool away and Chelsea at home. They have Bolton and the Baggies away and ManUre at home. It is not inconceivable that they will have overhauled us after the next three games. The end of the world is not nigh but the end of the tunnel is a long way away.
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Fizzy Pop anyone?
No ta, don't drink Carling.
I like Carling. :)
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There seems be a confusing volte face stance concerning McLeish on the basis of one good game against Fulham.
Agreed. Now who was it though that said Villa fans were fickle?
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All football fans are fickle.
But for the record I haven't noticed a volte face, just a slight relaxing of tension.
"Football fans in relieved their struggling team won a game shocker!"
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All football fans are fickle.
But for the record I haven't noticed a volte face, just a slight relaxing of tension.
"Football fans in relieved their struggling team won a game shocker!"
After 93rd min long range speculative shot, rebound of 'keeper, bungled in.....
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I agree Maz, I've noticed tangible relief and resignation to having Mcleish for the forseeable future rather than a sudden turn around to saying that we're great.
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We played well and deserved to win against a team that had been in form and most predicted would best us. And it also pretty much ended and lingering relegation fears.
I think we've just gone from a period of complaining about what is wrong to one where we're looking at how we can improve.
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Can we rename this thread the "Jeremiah" thread. After reading that load of negative rubbish I feel like putting Leonard Cohen on and lining up the razor blades.
We're Aston Villa and mediocrity is what we are good at.
In my 56 years of going to Villa Park we have always been a mid table side apart from a few notable exceptions..... relegation to the third division, winning the League and the European Cup and finishing second in the PL plus the odd league cup final.
What keeps me going is that despite all the odds, now and again we pull one out of the bag and surprise everyone including our selves. It's what being a Villa fan is all about.
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Sorry TLP but I do not buy into that scenario. The big difference between what has happened in this fall from grace compared with past slumps is that many of us thought in Lerner we had an owner who had the resources and the enthusiasm to see us throw off nearly 100 years of mediocrity but those hopes have turned to ashes.
The current penny pinching and barrel scraping indicates (to me at least) that Randy Lerner has fallen out oif love with football and probably out of love with Villa.
I will not be critical of any Villa fan who is down and depressed by the current situation because for a brief period we glimpsed the promised land but it turned out to be a mirage.
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Well said, Mr. Green.
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I think you need to look a bit closer at the table after tonight's results. AM is an absolute master at taking clubs down. Don't write him off yet!
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There is still a lot of football to be played this season. Villa are not safe yet.
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There is still a lot of football to be played this season. Villa are not safe yet.
It would require a ten point swing in the next ten games from a team that has only won 23 points in the last 28 matches.
We're 40-1 for a reason.
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There is still a lot of football to be played this season. Villa are not safe yet.
There is no chance of us going down but every chance that we will be closer to the bottom three than we are now.
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I think you need to look a bit closer at the table after tonight's results. AM is an absolute master at taking clubs down. Don't write him off yet!
By 'absolute master' you mean he has been relegated three times in his 18 year managerial career, two of those being when he took over already extremely shite teams who were going down anyway?
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I dont think we are safe, we should not be even having this debate
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We won't go down.
Another season of him in charge and RL at the helm worries me a lot.
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I think you need to look a bit closer at the table after tonight's results. AM is an absolute master at taking clubs down. Don't write him off yet!
By 'absolute master' you mean he has been relegated three times in his 18 year managerial career, two of those being when he took over already extremely shite teams who were going down anyway?
Yes, but his pre PL career doesn't matter - he was managing Rangers for much of it, which is something of a leg up.
His PL career is piss poor, and as for already going down, he took over Blues in November. It's not like he was Terry Connor stepping in the arse end of the season.
And, actually, even if you do take into account his career outside England and say "relegated three times in his 18 year career" - that works out in relegation in one of every six seasons he's managed, and that's pretty piss poor too.
If his record really does stand up to scrutiny, why was there not a single voice suggesting him last summer? Or before Houllier was appointed? Or in 2006?
I can understand the argument that he's here and deserves a chance, but his poor record in this country is there to see - and that's just looking at points at the end of the season, there's also the subjective element which takes in the terrible, terrible football his teams play.
When he came here, many of us said "so long as he doesn't play the same old defensive bollocks, he'll have a chance", and what has he done for most of this season? He's played the same old defensive bollocks.
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Sorry TLP but I do not buy into that scenario. The big difference between what has happened in this fall from grace compared with past slumps is that many of us thought in Lerner we had an owner who had the resources and the enthusiasm to see us throw off nearly 100 years of mediocrity but those hopes have turned to ashes.
The current penny pinching and barrel scraping indicates (to me at least) that Randy Lerner has fallen out oif love with football and probably out of love with Villa.
I will not be critical of any Villa fan who is down and depressed by the current situation because for a brief period we glimpsed the promised land but it turned out to be a mirage.
This is absolutely spot on, Brian.
The reason it is so hard this time is because we'd been given some hope.
Now, in many respects, living within our means, in on-field terms, we're largely where we were when he arrived. Disappointing.
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Nothing wrong with that as long as there's a set of creative outlets encouraged to go for it.
With all due respect, have you seen who is sat in the dugout pretending to be a manager?
We may have escaped the drop this year but I can see no light at the end of the tunnel. Given the brief he was given and the deal F'Eck is on there will be no sacking, not even next Christmas, unless we are 10 points adrift at the foot of the table.
I said when he was appointed if not relegated this year then next year, and the only brightness I can see on the horizon is that the promoted clubs will not be as good a vintage as this year's crop and we may have just enough to escape by the skin of our teeth again.
On the other hand, we might slowly improve.
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I think what will happen is he'll be here three seasons, in which we'll fluctuate between being just above the relegation zone and 10th or so. In that time, we'll stock up on unremarkable players, and play largely safety first, unadventurous football, whilst crowds plonk around the 32k mark.
Three years in, he'll get a little bit too close to the drop for comfort, and get sacked, at which point lots and lots of us (assuming we're still bothered enough to comment at that point) will look at Randy and say "told you so".
If that's the way it's going to be, then fine, but it makes a bit of a mockery of Bright Future.
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I think what will happen is he'll be here three seasons, in which we'll fluctuate between being just above the relegation zone and 10th or so. In that time, we'll stock up on unremarkable players, and play largely safety first, unadventurous football, whilst crowds plonk around the 32k mark.
Three years in, he'll get a little bit too close to the drop for comfort, and get sacked, at which point lots and lots of us (assuming we're still bothered enough to comment at that point) will look at Randy and say "told you so".
If that's the way it's going to be, then fine, but it makes a bit of a mockery of Bright Future.
As crystal balls go, I'd say that is probably about right.
With all the shit he is having to deal with, I'd say that AMc would be performing about or par (maybe just below) if these events were to transpire. Probably not enough to sack him but pretty damn boring for the fans.
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if we are crystal ball gazing, I think RL will have bailed out within the next 18 months. Its pretty obvious that he does not have the commitment or appetite to take the club forward. We are in the classic "holding patern" no serious decisions will be taken as the business trys to reduce the cash drain on his resources without endangering its PL status. He knows that this is not a long term sustainable strategy. The new owners and there will be new owners will dump AM at the first opportunity.
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I think you need to look a bit closer at the table after tonight's results. AM is an absolute master at taking clubs down. Don't write him off yet!
By 'absolute master' you mean he has been relegated three times in his 18 year managerial career, two of those being when he took over already extremely shite teams who were going down anyway?
Yes, but his pre PL career doesn't matter - he was managing Rangers for much of it, which is something of a leg up.
His PL career is piss poor, and as for already going down, he took over Blues in November. It's not like he was Terry Connor stepping in the arse end of the season.
And, actually, even if you do take into account his career outside England and say "relegated three times in his 18 year career" - that works out in relegation in one of every six seasons he's managed, and that's pretty piss poor too.
I know all this, but I was questioning the 'past master' bit. In the PL he has been relegated twice with a notorious yoyo club, once when they were utter shit anyway and once when they got distracted by winning a trophy (remember them?). His only other relegation was in the SPL for a team already fucked and who he got straight back up breaking records as he did it.
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I think you need to look a bit closer at the table after tonight's results. AM is an absolute master at taking clubs down. Don't write him off yet!
By 'absolute master' you mean he has been relegated three times in his 18 year managerial career, two of those being when he took over already extremely shite teams who were going down anyway?
That paints a brighter picture.
Alternatively, you could say that if you discount the 6 years with Rangers/Scotland, in the remaining 12 years he has had 3 good seasons when he finished 2nd with Motherwell in his first season, 3rd with Hibs and 9th with Blues in 2009-10. The remaining years were a mid-table finish, 3 relegations, 3 near relegations and 2 promotions.
In the two seasons you mention when he was relegated, in the first he left Motherwell who finished one off relegation before going to Hibs who he took down and in the second he took over from Bruce when the team was outside the relegation places. I should imagine in both of these seasons the clubs appointed him to get them out of relegation, rather than an appointment to get them up the next season.
All in all, I would say his seasons with Rangers and Scotland masked what could be considered as a mediocre management career at best.
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His record in Scotland is irrelevant, it means absoloutely nothing with regards to the Premier League, Gordon Strachan was successfull in Scotland,He took Cov down. The place is a backwater in footballing terms.
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So we just discount whatever he's done well and just count whatever he's done bad?
Seems fair. No prejudice there at all.
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With all the shit he is having to deal with, I'd say that AMc would be performing about or par (maybe just below) if these events were to transpire. Probably not enough to sack him but pretty damn boring for the fans.
What he is having to deal with is football management in the 21st century. He has been dealt a hand no worse than most of the teams outside the 6 or 7 teams at the top.
The question is, can he hack it or not. I do not believe any sympathy is due based on what he took over and the circumstances he faces.
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What he is having to deal with is football management in the 21st century. He has been dealt a hand no worse than most of the teams outside the 6 or 7 teams at the top.
Wrong. Most teams outside the top 6 or 7 didn't have their fans expectations raised to the extent we did under O'Wanker and Lerner's spending spree. McLeish is having to pick up the pieces of the new Villa austerity measures.
Yes, he has a similar budget to those teams around us, but most of those know their place in the pecking order, we don't seem to have accepted ours.
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What he is having to deal with is football management in the 21st century. He has been dealt a hand no worse than most of the teams outside the 6 or 7 teams at the top.
Wrong. Most teams outside the top 6 or 7 didn't have their fans expectations raised to the extent we did under O'Wanker and Lerner's spending spree. McLeish is having to pick up the pieces of the new Villa austerity measures.
Yes, he has a similar budget to those teams around us, but most of those know their place in the pecking order, we don't seem to have accepted ours.
You have your opinion and that is fair enough.
Expectations don't come into it in my book. I look at the cold, hard facts and other clubs don't seem to cry about the situation they face, they just get on with the job of trying to improve rather than accept their lot.
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With all the shit he is having to deal with, I'd say that AMc would be performing about or par (maybe just below) if these events were to transpire. Probably not enough to sack him but pretty damn boring for the fans.
What he is having to deal with is football management in the 21st century. He has been dealt a hand no worse than most of the teams outside the 6 or 7 teams at the top.
The question is, can he hack it or not. I do not believe any sympathy is due based on what he took over and the circumstances he faces.
Every club's circumstances are unique but I think AMc's been given a tough hand:
1. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of another club who are having to downsize quite so aggressively.
2. This is compounded by the fact that we lived the good life on credit for a few years so a number of the fans see anything below 8th as a failure.
3. The club was recently run by a megalomaniac. When he jumped ship he'd have left a power vacuum which I am not sure has ever been filled.
4. Ageing set of senior players who do not appear to be willing to change (see also Chelsea)
On the flip side we have an excellent batch of youngsters which if one or two reach their potential then it'll paper over a number of AMc's deficiencies.
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What he is having to deal with is football management in the 21st century. He has been dealt a hand no worse than most of the teams outside the 6 or 7 teams at the top.
Wrong. Most teams outside the top 6 or 7 didn't have their fans expectations raised to the extent we did under O'Wanker and Lerner's spending spree. McLeish is having to pick up the pieces of the new Villa austerity measures.
Yes, he has a similar budget to those teams around us, but most of those know their place in the pecking order, we don't seem to have accepted ours.
You have your opinion and that is fair enough.
Expectations don't come into it in my book. I look at the cold, hard facts and other clubs don't seem to cry about the situation they face, they just get on with the job of trying to improve rather than accept their lot.
We do, though, seem to have a lot of supporters who've gone from believing in inevitable Champions League to inevitable relegation without any great justification for either.
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What he is having to deal with is football management in the 21st century. He has been dealt a hand no worse than most of the teams outside the 6 or 7 teams at the top.
Wrong. Most teams outside the top 6 or 7 didn't have their fans expectations raised to the extent we did under O'Wanker and Lerner's spending spree. McLeish is having to pick up the pieces of the new Villa austerity measures.
Yes, he has a similar budget to those teams around us, but most of those know their place in the pecking order, we don't seem to have accepted ours.
You have your opinion and that is fair enough.
Expectations don't come into it in my book. I look at the cold, hard facts and other clubs don't seem to cry about the situation they face, they just get on with the job of trying to improve rather than accept their lot.
I don't see anyone crying apart from the "It's all shit now" jibbers who are talking down our prospects at every opportunity.
McLeish especially has never gone on record to say how shit the situation is, he is just getting on with the task in hand.
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What he is having to deal with is football management in the 21st century. He has been dealt a hand no worse than most of the teams outside the 6 or 7 teams at the top.
Wrong. Most teams outside the top 6 or 7 didn't have their fans expectations raised to the extent we did under O'Wanker and Lerner's spending spree. McLeish is having to pick up the pieces of the new Villa austerity measures.
Yes, he has a similar budget to those teams around us, but most of those know their place in the pecking order, we don't seem to have accepted ours.
You have your opinion and that is fair enough.
Expectations don't come into it in my book. I look at the cold, hard facts and other clubs don't seem to cry about the situation they face, they just get on with the job of trying to improve rather than accept their lot.
I don't see anyone crying apart from the "It's all shit now" jibbers who are talking down our prospects at every opportunity.
McLeish especially has never gone on record to say how shit the situation is, he is just getting on with the task in hand.
No, but there are people that are using it as a justifiable reason for the club making a totally inappropriate appointment of a manager.
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No, but there are people that are using it as a justifiable reason for the club making a totally inappropriate appointment of a manager.
And there's the crux.
No matter what the circumstances, no matter how well he does, McLeish has no chance amongst a certain section of our fans, Wonder why.
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I think what will happen is he'll be here three seasons, in which we'll fluctuate between being just above the relegation zone and 10th or so. In that time, we'll stock up on unremarkable players, and play largely safety first, unadventurous football, whilst crowds plonk around the 32k mark.
Three years in, he'll get a little bit too close to the drop for comfort, and get sacked, at which point lots and lots of us (assuming we're still bothered enough to comment at that point) will look at Randy and say "told you so".
I'll go along with that. I can't see the kind of big transfer funds being made available over the next few years to allow McLeish to bring in top-class players who will drive us up to the next level, and I don't believe he's the type of manager who can thrive and succeed with a modest squad. I can see us settling into a Stoke City role, hovering around the middle of the table.
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No, but there are people that are using it as a justifiable reason for the club making a totally inappropriate appointment of a manager.
And there's the crux.
No matter what the circumstances, no matter how well he does, McLeish has no chance amongst a certain section of our fans, Wonder why.
There should be some sort of law about this, like Godwin's Law, where every discussion of McLeish ends up in a "it's because he came from Small Heath" argument.
The vast majority of those who thought he was a dreadful appointment did so based on the fact he's been relegated in 50% of the seasons he's managed in the Premier League, and had a reputation for playing dreadful, defensive football.
And that's exactly what we've seen for much of the season - dreadful football.
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His record in Scotland is irrelevant, it means absoloutely nothing with regards to the Premier League, Gordon Strachan was successfull in Scotland,He took Cov down. The place is a backwater in footballing terms.
if we're looking at his record in Scotland, we could also look at the fact he got Rangers third place in a two horse race.
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1. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of another club who are having to downsize quite so aggressively.
There's no doubt this is a key factor, and it does Lerner no credit at all in the way he managed the club's finances that we've gone from one extreme to another so quickly, financially.
The problem is that, even with the players we have, McLeish so often manages to make them look like less than the sum of the parts.
The squad he has is far stronger than a lot of the clubs around and above us.
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His record in Scotland is irrelevant, it means absoloutely nothing with regards to the Premier League, Gordon Strachan was successfull in Scotland,He took Cov down. The place is a backwater in footballing terms.
if we're looking at his record in Scotland, we could also look at the fact he got Rangers third place in a two horse race.
And Motherwell to second in the same two-horse race.
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Firstly, I for one don't believe McLiesh will keep his job simply because if you look at the coming fixtures we are far from safe, this could come down to a must win v Bolton for our Premiership survival, when you put that together with the fact we have exactly the right man for the job to take us down then you realise this season has a long way to go.
Once you have established that fact we then have to consider that our pro active chairman is going to back a manager with hard cash which we will need in bucket loads after the departures and the outcome of this season in the close season, not even Randy can sit there and contemplate that one.
As for what I'm doing in the summer, have a look at England in the championships, its always good for a laugh, try and block out as much as possible the athletic event that's taking place in London, think they are calling it the London Olympics, get some sun with a bit of luck, and wait and see either how we are going to fair in the Championship or on the other hand what our new manager has in store for the club.
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His record in Scotland is irrelevant, it means absoloutely nothing with regards to the Premier League, Gordon Strachan was successfull in Scotland,He took Cov down. The place is a backwater in footballing terms.
if we're looking at his record in Scotland, we could also look at the fact he got Rangers third place in a two horse race.
Yet when that is mentioned, why do people not acknowledge he also got Motherwell into 2nd in that two horse race they weren't even supposed to be in? And the two relegations at Blues are balanced by their highest ever PL finish and winning them wining a trophy, and we all know how incredulous that was!
He's had highs and lows as a manager.
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Firstly, I for one don't believe McLiesh will keep his job simply because if you look at the coming fixtures we are far from safe, this could come down to a must win v Bolton for our Premiership survival, when you put that together with the fact we have exactly the right man for the job to take us down then you realise this season has a long way to go.
Simple question - do you think we will get relegated this season?
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No, but there are people that are using it as a justifiable reason for the club making a totally inappropriate appointment of a manager.
And there's the crux.
No matter what the circumstances, no matter how well he does, McLeish has no chance amongst a certain section of our fans, Wonder why.
I can't speak for all Villa supporters, but everyone who I know who supports the club says that he's not good enough to manage our club and his style of football is dire.
I also know Blues supporters who said the very same thing that the football was mind numbingly boring.
We're currently in a pathetic position of 15th, he's underperformed and served up Allardyce style football to boot.
If it looks like shit, smells like shit and tastes like shit.
Then it probably is shit.
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From looking at his CV it's difficult to tell if he's a good or bad manager. His time with us will prove career-defining I think.
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From looking at his CV it's difficult to tell if he's a good or bad manager. His time with us will prove career-defining I think.
I think this is a good point.
The problem from his, and our, persepctive is that he has financial issues to contend with as well as footballing ones.
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Nothing wrong with that as long as there's a set of creative outlets encouraged to go for it.
With all due respect, have you seen who is sat in the dugout pretending to be a manager?
We may have escaped the drop this year but I can see no light at the end of the tunnel. Given the brief he was given and the deal F'Eck is on there will be no sacking, not even next Christmas, unless we are 10 points adrift at the foot of the table.
I said when he was appointed if not relegated this year then next year, and the only brightness I can see on the horizon is that the promoted clubs will not be as good a vintage as this year's crop and we may have just enough to escape by the skin of our teeth again.
On the other hand, we might slowly improve.
That's the spirit Dante.
I'm going to stick my neck out and say that I reckon next season will see a vast improvement.
We'll have a squad that want to be at Villa.
The deadwood should be gone, AMcL will bring in some decent Bosmans and a couple of decent buys too.
The young guns will be busting a gut to show what they did in the reserves can be repeated in the PL.
We won't win the league, we won't finish in the top 5 either, but I reckon 7th or 8th will be within reach and at a push even the heady heights of 6th again.
There you go, I feel pretty good now. Bring on next season ;)
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but I reckon 7th or 8th will be within reach and at a push even the heady heights of 6th again.
Kids.
Don't do drugs.
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but I reckon 7th or 8th will be within reach and at a push even the heady heights of 6th again.
Kids.
Don't do drugs.
I think the top 6 is a stretch, but the players are there for anything below that, if AM can get them 'at it' in a similar way to Newcastle this season. Obviously, that may change dependent on the summer dealings.
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but I reckon 7th or 8th will be within reach and at a push even the heady heights of 6th again.
Kids.
Don't do drugs.
I think the top 6 is a stretch, but the players are there for anything below that, if AM can get them 'at it' in a similar way to Newcastle this season. Obviously, that may change dependent on the summer dealings.
Fair point John, it's all down to the quality of the signings we get, but all this talk of Bosmans is a concern.
I also hope we don't leave the squad thin, which seems to be a Villa tradition under most managers.
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Why does the answer to the question "How high will we finish?" nearly always be "depends on how much money we spend".
Granted, finishing in the top 7 generally relies on spending a fair bit of cash but from 8th down? There have been many comments that where we are - 15th, is because we have cut back on spending.
What about coaching and management? I do not see vast sums being spent on teams at the upper end of the teams below 7th. There are, however, teams that are either well coached or, alternatively, highly motivated by managers that are good at this type of approach (personally, I believe this style only gets you so far).
We are at the bottom end of this group of teams because the manager is not getting the best out of a squad of players that are playing at a level far lower than they are capable of.
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I don't get the optimism at all. The lot down the road had a squad he'd built, and in a similar fashion to how he's going to have to do it for us, so we can expect a decent defender or 2 but what else? Craig Gardner was their best attacking player when he left, do you seriously think he's going to suddenly change and be able to spot a creative genius who will guide us to the top 6?
What is going to happen is that we're going to get better at playing shit football. My worry, and why I've been wanting him out for the last few months, is this summer will be a bit of a watershed where we should be able to get rid of the vast majority of the overpriced dross MON left behind, if Lerner does want to make another shot of it, this summer is when that will happen, if we buy a load of shit again we might as well give up for the next 2-3 seasons whilst we go through another round of waiting for contracts to run down.
As Brian said way back near the start of the thread he's spent the season stumbling from game to game looking completely lost, the good performances have generally come when injuries, etc have forced him to change things. Put it this way, would Dunne be playing currently if he was fit? Would Gardner and Weimann have been on the pitch at the end of the fulham game if Petrov and Bent had been fit?
I just don't see any tactical ability at all from the guy, he just stumbles along relying on never being quite shit enough to get us in trouble. As for people who are saying he's done as well as can be expected, if you really think this squad should be 15th then you must be mad. outside the top 5 the league is poor this season, with our squad we should be top half.
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I don't get the optimism at all.
I am guilty of writing optimistic opinions. To be honest, in all probability your scenario is more likely to happen but I do not see the point in being all doom and gloom (not aimed at you) when no-one really knows what will happen. For example Gardner could become "the next Gerrard" and we see an overall improvement in results. That's not too crazy a suggestion.
I have to admit though, that when evaluating our situation, it is chunks of luck that are required rather than any faith or belief in what we are doing.
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I don't get the optimism at all.
I am guilty of writing optimistic opinions. To be honest, in all probability your scenario is more likely to happen but I do not see the point in being all doom and gloom (not aimed at you) when no-one really knows what will happen. For example Gardner could become "the next Gerrard" and we see an overall improvement in results. That's not too crazy a suggestion.
I have to admit though, that when evaluating our situation, it is chunks of luck that are required rather than any faith or belief in what we are doing.
I'd love to be optimistic, I actually think this is the first time in my life I've been so down on the club. I hated o'leary but the rumours of takeover talks kept you feeling like we just had to get over that hurdle. Now I just don't see any way out of this that doesn't involve a lot more bad times than good.
If I thought he was even doing a decent job with bringing the kids through it'd be bare-able but I think he's only playing them where he has no choice and I've thought that all season.
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Firstly, I for one don't believe McLiesh will keep his job simply because if you look at the coming fixtures we are far from safe, this could come down to a must win v Bolton for our Premiership survival, when you put that together with the fact we have exactly the right man for the job to take us down then you realise this season has a long way to go.
Simple question - do you think we will get relegated this season?
No I don't, in my scenario we beat Bolton....
Of course we could go and beat Arsenal at the weekend and go on a fantastic run, what do you think, I think its going to be a close run thing, that's why we are seeing week after week a " rally round the flag me boys" call to arms by McLiesh to try and get something going at the club, he well knows that if we suffer some serious defeats over the next few games heads will drop and it will take a mammoth effort to keep us up.
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His record in Scotland is irrelevant, it means absoloutely nothing with regards to the Premier League, Gordon Strachan was successfull in Scotland,He took Cov down. The place is a backwater in footballing terms.
if we're looking at his record in Scotland, we could also look at the fact he got Rangers third place in a two horse race.
Also Billy McNeil did well in Scotland but had a hand in getting us and ManCity relegated in one season.
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i didnt know that thing about Motherwell, did he really finish in 2nd place with them ?
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Yes. It was at the time when they were spending a fair bit, though.
still thats some achievment up there
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To be honest I can't be arsed to look back at what he has done in the past, maybe our board should have. He's here and he needs to start putting things right for us. I still hope he does and there has been the odd glimmer of hope. I actually don't believe all this about him holding players back to defend, I just think we have not been good enough or maybe just not confident enough. At times we have played a bit of football so we know we can do it.
Next season is hit or bust, not this season. Hopefully its a hit because there comes a time when we need to back a man and keep him here and build on it for our future.
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I would like us to expand our scouting network throughout Europe and hopefully sign a couple of gems.
It doesn't matter if we sign capable players if our (= Mcleish's) system restricts their game way too much, as with N'Zogbia. If we continue to play like this, I'm afraid the only future signings that can really succeed in Villa shirt are defense orientated ones
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we have seen enough of his style of football to work out how he thinks.
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To be honest I can't be arsed to look back at what he has done in the past, maybe our board should have. He's here and he needs to start putting things right for us. I still hope he does and there has been the odd glimmer of hope. I actually don't believe all this about him holding players back to defend, I just think we have not been good enough or maybe just not confident enough. At times we have played a bit of football so we know we can do it.
Next season is hit or bust, not this season. Hopefully its a hit because there comes a time when we need to back a man and keep him here and build on it for our future.
you obviously missed heskey playing as a second right back, which makes the rest of your observations redundant
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i didnt know that thing about Motherwell, did he really finish in 2nd place with them ?
He took over from Tommy McClean, their most successful manager since WWII, and finished 2nd in his first season as that team was being broken up, players sold for big fees and the money spent on the team. They had won the Scottish Cup the year before. They were then 8th 8th and 9th avoiding relegation by just one place on each occasion.
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I think his record in Scotland is largely irrelevant, and should be to the board since they seem obsessed with 'premier league experience'. The premier league experience involves two relegations in three years, and that is shocking.
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I think his record in Scotland is largely irrelevant, and should be to the board since they seem obsessed with 'premier league experience'. The premier league experience involves two relegations in three years, and that is shocking.
Yes and to think of all the managers out there the board decided to employ him. How on earth they thought a manager with that PL experience was the man for the job is beyond me. I don't blame AM as much the board - he is just doing the job the best he can (which is pretty cack) but the board saw fit to give him the job.
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i didnt know that thing about Motherwell, did he really finish in 2nd place with them ?
He took over from Tommy McClean, their most successful manager since WWII, and finished 2nd in his first season as that team was being broken up, players sold for big fees and the money spent on the team. They had won the Scottish Cup the year before. They were then 8th 8th and 9th avoiding relegation by just one place on each occasion.
So he finished 2nd with what was basically someone else’s team and then after it was broken up and he brought in his own players he just survived relegation. Really starting to look forward to next season!
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The Premier League experience bit of our hiring process for the last couple of appointments(more so Mcleish) is the most baffling thing. Why is Premier League experience so important if the experience was largely failure? At least with Houllier he had done pretty well in the Premier League albeit several years before his appointment.
I understand the Premier League experience factor if you're trying to decide between two successful managers like Benetiz and Pellegrini for example. It may be beneficial to have that experience if it was largely successful. However it seems absolutely insane to overlook potential candidates from the continent in favour of someone who has failed in the Premier League, because that manager has managed in the Premier League.
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Completely agree, Paul. As soon as they mentioned that in the list of criteria during the process for replacing MON, I hoped it wouldn't come back to haunt them. The Premier League has achieved its level of success and validity largely thanks to those players and managers it has brought in from overseas with the TV money, more so than its own inherent technical qualities (imo the fans and atmospheres are a couple of the biggest inherent 'selling points' of English football). The ethics of that you can question - the reality of its success is unavoidable. The board did not act with a great deal of logic, reason or cold detachment when including that criterion.
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Completely agree, Paul. As soon as they mentioned that in the list of criteria during the process for replacing MON, I hoped it wouldn't come back to haunt them. The Premier League has achieved its level of success and validity largely thanks to those players and managers it has brought in from overseas with the TV money, more so than its own inherent technical qualities (imo the fans and atmospheres are a couple of the biggest inherent 'selling points' of English football). The ethics of that you can question - the reality of its success is unavoidable. The board did not act with a great deal of logic, reason or cold detachment when including that criterion.
It is and was the most stupid single thing they have done. Look at the most successful mangers in the Premier League, Ferguson, Wenger, Moyes, Mourinho, Ancelotti, Houllier and Benitez (probably). None of them had any Prem League experience when they were appointed.
As others have said it does smack of being a holding tactic whilst a buyer is sort out or we get our finances in order. Almost as if we wanted a manager who would not change things.
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Why is Premier League experience so important if the experience was largely failure?
If you were only able to ask one question in the presence of Lerner and Faulkner, that would be it.
If you think about it, we actually hired one of the least successful managers in PL history.
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Why is Premier League experience so important if the experience was largely failure?
If you were only able to ask one question in the presence of Lerner and Faulkner, that would be it.
I would imagine that if you did ask it of them, Lerner would just make a Well-a well-a well-a James Stewart type noise and Faulkner would just stand there dribbling.
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Why is Premier League experience so important if the experience was largely failure?
If you were only able to ask one question in the presence of Lerner and Faulkner, that would be it.
If you think about it, we actually hired one of the least successful managers in PL history.
which shows they dont have a clue,
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When I think of McLeish I am reminded of a Welshman I used to employ.
I had a commercial landscaping business and we would travel to sites all over the country. The labour force was usually me, Damon and Taffy. Before we left I would put our tools in the van, three spades, three forks, three shovels, three pickaxes, three rakes and three hoes.
Taffy was too idle, slapdash and stupid not to lose his tools so he would "borrow" mine and Damon's. By the end of the job they would have all been lost or stolen.
To compensate for this Taffy would steal other workmen's tools but he could only ever find pickaxes. So we would return home with no spades, forks or shovels just eighteen pickaxes.
This reminds me of McLeish because I genuinely think the summer will be spent not assembling the actual players we need to stiffen the defence and motivate the midfield but getting what we can where we can for the best possible price.
All this hullaballoo about who is going to replace Guzan is a typical case in point.
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Give him a break so far he hasnt bought 2 players for any positions so your analogy of pick axes doesnt add up. judge him after a full close season. I understand why Chris Smith has done a runner from all this negativity. Im on train with my 2 daughters both under 10 taking them to their first away game. Believe me I wouldnt want to be anywhere else in the world.. come on you lions...
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Chris Smith has not 'done a runner'.
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His Plan? Play Heskey
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Sadly i don't think it is hit or bust next season.
I think it is about reducing the wage bill, cutting McLeish's by 2/3rds would be start, and spending as little as possible.
Along with Everton and Newcastle the strategy will be to not even bother competing with Arsenal/Chelsea/Manu/City/Liverpool and Spurs in fees or wages, but pay enough to stay above the releagtion slots and offer a springboard for emerging talent to progress to the PL elite.
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playing Heskey today!!! Thats me finished with this Fool!!!!! he has no idea he has to go!!!!
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Hopefully his plan will be to pick us his dole money, because he should not under any circumstances be here.
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Hopefully his plan will be to pick us his dole money, because he should not under any circumstances be here.
Jobseekers/Dole is not allowed if you have £16,000 + in the bank.
McLeish will be on at least twice as much as that PER WEEK.
Modern football is sickening.
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So... Is there any positivity left in this thread?
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Not for me, except I'm positive the board are too fucking clueless to sack the manager.
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Now I think we can well and truly put to bed the myth that Mcleish is potentially a good manager. No amount of tin pot cups in Scotland and a League cup, can disguise the fact he relegated his last Premier League team twice in three years and he's well on the way to relegating his current team.
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Now I think we can well and truly put to bed the myth that Mcleish is potentially a good manager. No amount of tin pot cups in Scotland and a League cup, can disguise the fact he relegated his last Premier League team twice in three years and he's well on the way to relegating his current team.
He is shit and when people defend him, you have to wonder if they're being perverse or just trying to raise their site profile.
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Still think we will survive this season mainly because of the points we already have. Place us in the bottom three and i really doubt we'd be able to get out.
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Still think we will survive this season mainly because of the points we already have. Place us in the bottom three and i really doubt we'd be able to get out.
So what does that say about next season?
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Still think we will survive this season mainly because of the points we already have. Place us in the bottom three and i really doubt we'd be able to get out.
So what does that say about next season?
It says we are deeply in the shit!
This feels like the last days of DOL when we all knew we were doomed if he stayed.
But what the hell do we as fans do?
Not supposed to boo, not supposed to protest, not supposed to not attend or take your seat late, not supposed to write letters as all are "small time".
So we just sit and take it and in 10 years time Randy and Eck will be gone while we sit in a half-empty stadium playing Barnsley (no offence Barnsley)?
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WOW! Barnsley will be back in the Premier League in 2022?
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WOW! Barnsley will be back in the Premier League in 2022?
That's my first smile since 3:00PM today!
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Still think we will survive this season mainly because of the points we already have. Place us in the bottom three and i really doubt we'd be able to get out.
Absolutely agree, the fortunate 3 points against Wigan has probably saved us, but only probably.
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I would like to see him do well because he seems like a nice guy, but his record this season has been very poor and I've seen very little to suggest he is up to premiership management. If we don't relegated this season we are surely strong candidates next season with McLeish in charge.
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I did think he was nice , but the crap he sprouts after every game , I am starting to hate the bloke.
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I did think he was nice , but the crap he sprouts after every game,
Don't you think he knows his onions?
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I did think he was nice , but the crap he sprouts after every game,
Don't you think he knows his onions?
Are you implying he's a carrot-topped cabbage?
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If we showed any sign of improvement or progression I would support McLeish.
We don't know how to win and after 29 games everything's remained constant.
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I did think he was nice , but the crap he sprouts after every game,
Don't you think he knows his onions?
Are you implying he's a carrot-topped cabbage?
Not at all, my old bean.
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I did think he was nice , but the crap he sprouts after every game,
Don't you think he knows his onions?
Are you implying he's a carrot-topped cabbage?
Not at all, my old bean.
I think he even makes potato head look like Jose Mourinho ;)
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Still think we will survive this season mainly because of the points we already have. Place us in the bottom three and i really doubt we'd be able to get out.
So what does that say about next season?
It makes Faulkners talk of the Europa league laughable for one.
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I said when he was appointed if not relegated this year then next year, and the only brightness I can see on the horizon is that the promoted clubs will not be as good a vintage as this year's crop and we may have just enough to escape by the skin of our teeth again.
The 'skin of our teeth' this year being an 11 point gap at present.
that gap is closing and there are no signs that suggest anything else. I shall be dusting off my 'The end is nigh' sandwich board and seeing if I can't earn a little cash with the crystal ball.
F'eckin' 'ell.
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Still think we will survive this season mainly because of the points we already have. Place us in the bottom three and i really doubt we'd be able to get out.
So what does that say about next season?
It makes Faulkners talk of the Europa league laughable for one.
What would Faulkner know about the Europa League? Please.
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Still think we will survive this season mainly because of the points we already have. Place us in the bottom three and i really doubt we'd be able to get out.
So what does that say about next season?
It makes Faulkners talk of the Europa league laughable for one.
What would Faulkner know about the Europa League? Please.
If Faulkner and co. expected top 6 (The General mentioned 4th, then 5th, but that's what war can do to you) then surely McLeish has failed to live up to the boards expectations and should be bounced out at the end of the season.
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I have not read the thread because i know the answer.
This imbecile of a manager is not good enough.
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I did think he was nice , but the crap he sprouts after every game,
Don't you think he knows his onions?
Are you implying he's a carrot-topped cabbage?
Not at all, my old bean.
I think he even makes potato head look like Jose Mourinho ;)
Brain the size of a pea, that McLueless. He should do a runner (bean).
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Plan - you mean there is a plan? Yes a plan.
Bit like in Blackadder- 'Crew M'Lord?...'
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I said when he was appointed if not relegated this year then next year, and the only brightness I can see on the horizon is that the promoted clubs will not be as good a vintage as this year's crop and we may have just enough to escape by the skin of our teeth again.
The 'skin of our teeth' this year being an 11 point gap at present.
Now down to 4 over Bolton and 5 over Blackburn QPR and Wigan. Only Wolves below that.
Liverpool at Anfield next.
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I said when he was appointed if not relegated this year then next year, and the only brightness I can see on the horizon is that the promoted clubs will not be as good a vintage as this year's crop and we may have just enough to escape by the skin of our teeth again.
The 'skin of our teeth' this year being an 11 point gap at present.
Now down to 4 over Bolton and 5 over Blackburn QPR and Wigan. Only Wolves below that.
Liverpool at Anfield next.
And so who have QPR and Wigan got next, both away from home I presume?
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Wrong thread.
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I said when he was appointed if not relegated this year then next year, and the only brightness I can see on the horizon is that the promoted clubs will not be as good a vintage as this year's crop and we may have just enough to escape by the skin of our teeth again.
The 'skin of our teeth' this year being an 11 point gap at present.
Now down to 4 over Bolton and 5 over Blackburn QPR and Wigan. Only Wolves below that.
Liverpool at Anfield next.
And so who have QPR and Wigan got next, both away from home I presume?
Next five for all concerned:
Villa Qpr Blackburn Bolton Wigan
Liverpool (a) Man Utd (a) WBA (a) Fulham Chelsea (a)
Stoke Swansea Liverpool Newcastle (a) Man Utd
Man Utd (a) WBA (a) Swansea (a) Swansea Arsenal (a)
Sunderland Spurs Norwich Villa (a) Fulham (a)
WBA (a) Chelsea (a) Spurs (a) Sunderland (a) Newcastle
not a lot of optimism there as far as I can see
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Blackburn's next game is home to Man U on Monday.
If they get anything out of that - I'll be very worried.