Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: villanic on March 20, 2012, 03:49:57 PM
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Apparently NY Red Bulls have turned down the chance to sign Micheal Ballack in favour of signing Stephen Ireland.
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Funny.
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Apparently NY Red Bulls have turned down the chance to sign Micheal Ballack in favour of signing Stephen Ireland.
Heard it on talksport while they where talking to the German correspondent and found this on eurosport website.
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/20032012/58/bundesliga-new-york-reject-ballack-stephen-ireland.html (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/20032012/58/bundesliga-new-york-reject-ballack-stephen-ireland.html)
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Very dubious.
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Bye Stephen, thanks for the odd glimpse of your talent, even though we're probably about £12million worse off....
but I don't believe that link...
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Apparently NY Red Bulls have turned down the chance to sign Micheal Ballack in favour of signing Stephen Ireland.
off course they have
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If we get an offer, he'll be leaving in the summer. I'm not too fussed either. He's too unreliable. We need players who, no matter the manager or system, just get on and play football and never shirk on endeavour. As I said in the Zoggy thread I'd bugger Ireland and him off and if we could get a couple of players like Dempsey and Nolan, then I'd be happy. It's our level now, but if we want to edge back ahead of the teams around us and be around 7th in that best of the rest area, then we need more consistent players. This means harder workers and better attitudes. Zog and Ireland strike me more as Mercs.
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Don't let the door hit you on the backside on the way out.
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Just as we are starting to see glimses of the player I thought we had bought - this story has come up on Newsnow from varoius news sources but all quoting the same interview with Ballacks agent
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They might have wanted him in October but now he actually gets in our team I imagine the situation has changed. Selling him when he's just starting to show his ability would be silly.
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Hmm..I know he spent time in LA last summer playing football with some amateurs and it wouldn't surprise me if such a move would suit his and his missus' lifestyles.
I hope not though, he's by far our best player when on form which he has finally shown over the last couple of months.
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They might have wanted him in October but now he actually gets in our team I imagine the situation has changed. Selling him when he's just starting to show his ability would be silly.
It's not like we're above doing silly things.
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If it's true, and Ireland is prepared to spend the best years of his career in the American league, it will just about sum up his character.
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Ballack's agent has been drinking to much Red Bull I am thinking and talking bull.
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Mr Irelands on between 65000 and 80000 pw. Under Randys cost cutting regime hes a racing certainty to go.
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Playing well but not worth 70k a week. if we got 5m i'd rip their hands off
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Better bloody not be...
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Silly season starts early.
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Not sure selling our most talented player is a good idea.
I expect him to be off in the summer whether to NYC, QPR or someone else. He isn't a McLeish type player and we are all about cutting costs these days although it was a managerless AVFC that completed that deal. Cheers Lerner
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The only difference to the usual made up crap, is that Ballack's agent has actually stated it as fact that Ireland is going there. Odd move if true.
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Let's say it is true. Ireland has been playing better of late and at times very good, but let's be honest he hasn't been banging them in or making huge differences in games that we've gone on to win. Or taken games by the scruff of the neck and led us to victory. He's been something positive in what's been a very below par season.
Frankly, I want players at Villa that want to be there, and will give their left bollock for the cause. If Ireland wants to be a part of that then we should keep him. If he or Dunne or N'Zogbia want out then they can go. And as fast as possible. I'd rather McLeish had players at the club that were willing to buy into his plans. Like it or not he's going to be here and he's going to have a say in who plays. I want him to succeed and if it means his players mixed in with the kids that he'll certainly give a chance to, then I'm all for that.
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If I were Ireland and I read the first couple of pages in this thread it'd be another reason for me to leave. He's been one of our better performers this season, and with the inevitable hard times ahead I'd rather we supported one of the few players I actually enjoy watching, however mental he may be, rather than coating him off at the first sign of a dubious quote from Michael Ballack's agent.
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Just a pebble in a pile of shit ....... Rather open up the space for Gardener
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Some ridiculous opinions on here already gents, well done. It's near damn impossible to win matches without flair players. He was never brought here to be a box to box mf, he was brought here to win us games. Finally he has calmed down his lifestyle, is concentrating on family and career and by our own managers admission is putting in a shift for the team every week and people are saying lets sell him for 5m and replace him with another hard working sidwell. Brilliant. Here's an idea mr Faulkner; let's release a statement saying we are looking to build our squad around people like Ireland and under no circumstances are our star players for sale. Or alternatively we can move him on like we have with Barry, young, Milner, downing.
Am I going mad? :o
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No you're not. I think it's madness to look to move him on now that he's starting to show why we bought him in the first place. A rare talent.
I also think he's getting misrepresented as something he's not. A lot of these tales of excess and hijinx are bollocks.
If he wasn't happy and we could get a good price, maybe. But selling him off to America for a song (no doubt) as he's just starting to look settled and performing is a shit idea.
This may have been on the cards earlier in the season but I doubt it is now. But very little suprises me anymore.
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Mr Irelands on between 65000 and 80000 pw. Under Randys cost cutting regime hes a racing certainty to go.
Now I doubt Ireland would ever want to take a pay cut, and I can't see anyone taking him on and matching those wages.
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A very talented footballer who finally seems to be applying himself, despite beign fecked about bt McLeish and his, er, interesting substitutions. We should be looking to keep the few decent footballers we have, although I have to say whoever agreed to 70k a week for him (can we blame MON for this one?) wants fucking shooting.
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I have to say whoever agreed to 70k a week for him (can we blame MON for this one?) wants fucking shooting.
He took a pay cut to join us.
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It would be ridiculous to let him go, he is one of the very few players we have with creative talent.
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I have to say whoever agreed to 70k a week for him (can we blame MON for this one?) wants fucking shooting.
He took a pay cut to join us.
And stopped playing as well.
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Some ridiculous opinions on here already gents, well done. It's near damn impossible to win matches without flair players. He was never brought here to be a box to box mf, he was brought here to win us games. Finally he has calmed down his lifestyle, is concentrating on family and career and by our own managers admission is putting in a shift for the team every week and people are saying lets sell him for 5m and replace him with another hard working sidwell. Brilliant. Here's an idea mr Faulkner; let's release a statement saying we are looking to build our squad around people like Ireland and under no circumstances are our star players for sale. Or alternatively we can move him on like we have with Barry, young, Milner, downing.
Am I going mad? :o
spot on . sell him and buy Guthrie . Is that what people want . Depressing
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I have to say whoever agreed to 70k a week for him (can we blame MON for this one?) wants fucking shooting.
He took a pay cut to join us.
Not really relevant, though, is it?
We still paid him a vast sum of money to do shit all for a long time. Now he's finally starting to deliver, unless there is an utterly compelling financial reason to do so, selling him would be daft - especially if we then replaced him with a flairless grafter like Guthrie.
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I don't think he ever really wanted to come and who could blame him, he's an ambitious talented but fucked up player, he wants to win things and I doubt he'll ever do it with us
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When he got into the side this year and (finally!) started playing well, I did say we should still flog him. That was based on the idea that his upturn in form wouldn't last and he'd eventually go shit again, so lets take the money while it's there and let someone else have the problem. Yet every game he has played since has softened that stance, to the point where I'd now keep him.
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I have to say whoever agreed to 70k a week for him (can we blame MON for this one?) wants fucking shooting.
He took a pay cut to join us.
Not really relevant, though, is it?
We still paid him a vast sum of money to do shit all for a long time. Now he's finally starting to deliver, unless there is an utterly compelling financial reason to do so, selling him would be daft - especially if we then replaced him with a flairless grafter like Guthrie.
It is relevant to the argument of whether we're paying him too much or just paying him the going rate.
But I agree about not selling him. He's starting to show what he can do so lets keep him.
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I have to say whoever agreed to 70k a week for him (can we blame MON for this one?) wants fucking shooting.
He took a pay cut to join us.
Not really relevant, though, is it?
We still paid him a vast sum of money to do shit all for a long time. Now he's finally starting to deliver, unless there is an utterly compelling financial reason to do so, selling him would be daft - especially if we then replaced him with a flairless grafter like Guthrie.
It is relevant to the argument of whether we're paying him too much or just paying him the going rate.
But I agree about not selling him. He's starting to show what he can do so lets keep him.
Not sure I agree with that, given that he came from a club where stupid wages are the norm (and were before the current lot rolled up, even).
If we're paying Heskey 65k a week and we offload him somewhere else who pay him 60k, are they paying the going rate, or are both clubs paying him well over the top?
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No-one will pay Heskey £60k a week.
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No-one will pay Heskey £60k a week.
I know. It's just an example to show how a player going from one overpaid contract to another doesn't mean it's the going rate, it can mean they're both paying way over the top.
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Not sure I agree with that, given that he came from a club where stupid wages are the norm (and were before the current lot rolled up, even).
If we're paying Heskey 65k a week and we offload him somewhere else who pay him 60k, are they paying the going rate, or are both clubs paying him well over the top?
Given the ages and respective abilities of the two players, that's a bit of a misleading argument.
He signed for the same wages we were paying Milner and was seen as his direct replacement.
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I hope he stays. I've been really impressed since his bollocking and his class performance v Chelsea.
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No-one will pay Heskey £60k a week.
I know. It's just an example to show how a player going from one overpaid contract to another doesn't mean it's the going rate, it can mean they're both paying way over the top.
And I'm sure it'll continue for many years yet, humans (not just footballers) are greedy.
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Im not really fussed if he goes. I dont believe for one minute he wanted to come to us as part of the milner deal. He prob only came due to the financial package on offer. He has shown glimpses of talent but thats it. We would be better off cutting our losses and reinvesting his wages in someone else. I dont he will ever reach his full potential with us
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In fairness he's been in very good form for a few months now.
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Here's an idea mr Faulkner; let's release a statement saying we are looking to build our squad around people like Ireland and under no circumstances are our star players for sale. Or alternatively we can move him on like we have with Barry, young, Milner, downing.
The willingness to sell off the four players you mentioned goes to show that our star players are for sale, and always have been if the price is right.
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I don't really see what's been so good about his form. I do appreciate he's put the effort in but for me he's still far too patchy. We need players who can impact over 90 minutes and every week. He's been okay, nothing more. And indeed as someone else mention, it's the end result that matters and he's not scoring or creating enough goals. He's not making enough chances for starters.
I also don't appreciate (granted it was hearsay) the fact he may have moaned about his position. If he's got the footballing ability he has he should be able to comfortably instigate play coming in from the left wing. He did play from the left sometimes during his one good season at City.
Same goes for N'Zogbia, I don't like the moaning. We're not seeing anywhere near his best, and as is the case with Stephen, it's not all because of how McLeish sets the team out. We've played 4-4-2 this season, 4-5-1, 4-2-31, and correct me if I'm wrong but especially in the case of 4-4-2, footballers have been playing this system since the very beginning. Just play for fucks sake! Will our manager really complain if Ireland decides to drift in field every now and again if he scores a screamer? No. But...you have to impact the game. When our flair players drift out of games after their 20 minute purple patches, then the team do too.
I do rate Ireland. He's got ability, but I'd still ell him IF we can get someone more consistent and who can dictate a game more.
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Not sure I agree with that, given that he came from a club where stupid wages are the norm (and were before the current lot rolled up, even).
If we're paying Heskey 65k a week and we offload him somewhere else who pay him 60k, are they paying the going rate, or are both clubs paying him well over the top?
Given the ages and respective abilities of the two players, that's a bit of a misleading argument.
He signed for the same wages we were paying Milner and was seen as his direct replacement.
The player i used as an example isn't really relevant. I'm just saying that the fact he took a pay drop to come here doesn't mean he's getting the going rate.
We might still be overpaying him. Look at Wayne Bridge as an example of a player going from club to club, picking up well over the odds.
And how do we know he's being paid the same Milner was?
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I'm pretty sure it was reported at the time we were paying him what we paid Milner.
I'm not going to argue players are paid too much, but if a player goes from club to club getting that wage, then does that not make it the 'going rate'?
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I do rate Ireland. He's got ability, but I'd still ell him IF we can get someone more consistent and who can dictate a game more.
Someone like Robbie Keane?
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Here's an idea mr Faulkner; let's release a statement saying we are looking to build our squad around people like Ireland and under no circumstances are our star players for sale. Or alternatively we can move him on like we have with Barry, young, Milner, downing.
The willingness to sell off the four players you mentioned goes to show that our star players are for sale, and always have been if the price is right.
But there needs to be a line drawn in the sand where we say thats enough. It annoys me that totenham have someone in at a high level that can simply say "keep your money, we arent going to be bullied into doing what you want, no matter how much you put down" yet we roll over and get our bellies tickled every time someone throws 8 figures our way. By not selling Modric to Chelsea, totenham have probably got themselves back into the Champions league and got maybe another 30m in revenue they wouldnt have had if they had sold Modric. I know its all ifs and buts, but the knock on effect of that probably involves them keeping Bale, Van Der Vaart, signing Parker, establishing themselves in the top 5-6sides for years to come. If we had the 4players I mentioned still here that could be us. Faulkner is a chump.
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I do rate Ireland. He's got ability, but I'd still ell him IF we can get someone more consistent and who can dictate a game more.
Someone like Robbie Keane?
I think Keane played very well for us Leeg, but I'm not convinced he dictated the game and also the side had some pretty poor results with him in the team.
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The only difference to the usual made up crap, is that Ballack's agent has actually stated it as fact that Ireland is going there. Odd move if true.
I can state as a fact that today is Thursday. Doesn't alter the reality though does it?
Unless he asks for a move I'd be very surprised if he isn't here at the start of next season.
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But there needs to be a line drawn in the sand where we say thats enough.
The line in the sand is the offer that exceeds our valuation of a player at the particular point in their contract cycle - and that would be same for most clubs.
It's easy to snipe at the sale of our best players - and we certainly miss some of them - but it's just the way it is right now. Hence the need for the management to make the best of the kids coming through.
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In a bloody awful season, his quality has come through more and more. Best player on the pitch by a country mile against Fulham. He is on a different wavelength to most of the team half the time and is the main reason I'm dragging myself down to VP at the moment.
He's a confidence player who responds to the crowds encouragement. We need to build the side round him for next season.
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I don't really see what's been so good about his form. I do appreciate he's put the effort in but for me he's still far too patchy. We need players who can impact over 90 minutes and every week. He's been okay, nothing more. And indeed as someone else mention, it's the end result that matters and he's not scoring or creating enough goals. He's not making enough chances for starters.
I also don't appreciate (granted it was hearsay) the fact he may have moaned about his position. If he's got the footballing ability he has he should be able to comfortably instigate play coming in from the left wing. He did play from the left sometimes during his one good season at City.
Same goes for N'Zogbia, I don't like the moaning. We're not seeing anywhere near his best, and as is the case with Stephen, it's not all because of how McLeish sets the team out. We've played 4-4-2 this season, 4-5-1, 4-2-31, and correct me if I'm wrong but especially in the case of 4-4-2, footballers have been playing this system since the very beginning. Just play for fucks sake! Will our manager really complain if Ireland decides to drift in field every now and again if he scores a screamer? No. But...you have to impact the game. When our flair players drift out of games after their 20 minute purple patches, then the team do too.
I do rate Ireland. He's got ability, but I'd still ell him IF we can get someone more consistent and who can dictate a game more.
Kevin Nolan is finished as a premier league player btw, he's been very poor recently for West Ham.
Ireland contributed greatly to our win at Chelsea, scored one and set up one.
Of course in a team you need graft but you also need flair, y'know players who'll get you off your seat from time to time. Ashley Young and on occasions this season N'zogbia and Ireland. These are our two wildcard players, match winners when they feel like it and both have been much better since the new year.
I'd remind people that Paul Merson was pretty poor in his first year here and pissed off to New York mid season. Eventually he got it together and became one of our most popular players over the last 10 years and all the bad stuff was forgotten.
Just think for a second aswell, how many chances would Bent get a game with Guthrie and Nolan in central midfield? We'd be plodding even more negatively in 15th if that was the case.
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I accept that he has been playing better but he's hardly consistently been playing well. No-one has. maybe Given aside, and Petrov earlier in the season. So, I wouldn't necessarily think it beyond reason that we cold move him on. It really depends on what McLeish wants. He's still largely got O'Neill's team and until he gets his own players he won't fully be able to play his own way.I'd wouldn't be too surprised or disappointed to see Petrov and Dunne going also.
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I'd keep Ireland. He's a good player and getting better.
If we sold him now we'd be selling him way to cheaply and we'd have to spend X trying to replace him.
He's not perfect but I'd be amazed if we could get a consistent version for the 5m we're likely to receive.
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The willingness to sell off the four players you mentioned goes to show that our star players are for sale, and always have been if the price is right.
absolutely ALL players are for sale if the price is right - even Manure had to sell Ronaldo (C)...
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Here's an idea mr Faulkner; let's release a statement saying we are looking to build our squad around people like Ireland and under no circumstances are our star players for sale. Or alternatively we can move him on like we have with Barry, young, Milner, downing.
The willingness to sell off the four players you mentioned goes to show that our star players are for sale, and always have been if the price is right.
But there needs to be a line drawn in the sand where we say thats enough. It annoys me that totenham have someone in at a high level that can simply say "keep your money, we arent going to be bullied into doing what you want, no matter how much you put down" yet we roll over and get our bellies tickled every time someone throws 8 figures our way. By not selling Modric to Chelsea, totenham have probably got themselves back into the Champions league and got maybe another 30m in revenue they wouldnt have had if they had sold Modric. I know its all ifs and buts, but the knock on effect of that probably involves them keeping Bale, Van Der Vaart, signing Parker, establishing themselves in the top 5-6sides for years to come. If we had the 4players I mentioned still here that could be us. Faulkner is a chump.
I agree with you. Sadly, our board don't and have sold when they had the chance. Out of those mentioned above, I don't see why we had to sell Milner and Downing. Barry and Young were on the last year of their contracts, so fair enough.
I really hope they learned with the Milner sale; no part exchanges, just cash. We don't need the promise of jam tomorrow.
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The willingness to sell off the four players you mentioned goes to show that our star players are for sale, and always have been if the price is right.
absolutely ALL players are for sale if the price is right - even Manure had to sell Ronaldo (C)...
True, it is what you do with the money you raise that matters.
Unfortunately, in our case, it'll probably be "stick it in an ISA or someting"
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The willingness to sell off the four players you mentioned goes to show that our star players are for sale, and always have been if the price is right.
absolutely ALL players are for sale if the price is right - even Manure had to sell Ronaldo (C)...
That sale is always mentioned when this discussion is taking place and I don't think it is similar in any way. Mainly because it was Manchester United who were selling and were well equipped without Ronaldo anyway.
We sold players that were having a team built around them, the team was not even the finished article and the best players were being picked off. So here we are, mid-table again; another manager gone after 4 seasons, skint, and a crap manager in charge.
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The willingness to sell off the four players you mentioned goes to show that our star players are for sale, and always have been if the price is right.
absolutely ALL players are for sale if the price is right - even Manure had to sell Ronaldo (C)...
That sale is always mentioned when this discussion is taking place and I don't think it is similar in any way. Mainly because it was Manchester United who were selling and were well equipped without Ronaldo anyway.
I don't agree with that. They might be holding their own in the Prem League but they are no where near the top of the Chumps League, whereas I think they would be with "CR7" #spit# in their team.
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The willingness to sell off the four players you mentioned goes to show that our star players are for sale, and always have been if the price is right.
absolutely ALL players are for sale if the price is right - even Manure had to sell Ronaldo (C)...
That sale is always mentioned when this discussion is taking place and I don't think it is similar in any way. Mainly because it was Manchester United who were selling and were well equipped without Ronaldo anyway.
I don't agree with that. They might be holding their own in the Prem League but they are no where near the top of the Chumps League, whereas I think they would be with "CR7" #spit# in their team.
They were in a better position than us to replace any of the players we sold.
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He's not off to New York - he's far too young!
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Huh?
York model railway village maybe.
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The willingness to sell off the four players you mentioned goes to show that our star players are for sale, and always have been if the price is right.
absolutely ALL players are for sale if the price is right - even Manure had to sell Ronaldo (C)...
That sale is always mentioned when this discussion is taking place and I don't think it is similar in any way. Mainly because it was Manchester United who were selling and were well equipped without Ronaldo anyway.
We sold players that were having a team built around them, the team was not even the finished article and the best players were being picked off. So here we are, mid-table again; another manager gone after 4 seasons, skint, and a crap manager in charge.
It's similar because:
1. club sells best player
2. club agrees to sell best player due to ludicrously large fee.
3. team not as good afterwards.
4. best player not replaced with player of equal quality.
5. best player was midfielder (ok, maybe that's pushing it...)
Another example would be Figo's move from Barcelona to Real Madrid - the fact is every player is ALWAYS for sale...at a price.
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If he goes it will be the only entry from McLeish's pluses column.
The only thing our manager can set against all the minuses of his period in charge is that he has persevered with Ireland and got him playing somewhere near his potential. Sell Ireland now and even that is wiped off McLeish's record.
But, as has already been said our board can be relied upon to do the wrong thing.
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Maybe it's best to cash in when he has market value having had a good season? We might get more from our other flair players without Ireland?
He has been one of the few things to get excited about this year so it would still be sad to see him go.
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What other flair players would they be Irish? N'Zog shows flair, in flashes, but who else?
Regardless of his drop in wages I think he's overpaid because he hasn't been consistently good enough to justify that salary and because we can't (and never could) afford it. We should have offered him 40k tops, walked away if he said no, told Citeh to stump up 100% cash if they wanted Milner, and signed a promising players from somewhere else with the extra 6m. But since he's here he's probably our most gifted player, and I think we have often lacked a bit of that maverick element, someone who can turn a game out of nothing, but who might be as frustrating as hell in between magical moments. Villa fans don't tend to be very tolerant of that type of player. But then I'm one of the few who liked having Ginola in a Villa shirt.
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I think that's harsh. I don't know many Villa fans who didn't enjoy watching Merson. Or Carbone.
I know someone will pipe up now, but the point stands.
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Maybe it's best to cash in when he has market value having had a good season? We might get more from our other flair players without Ireland?
He has been one of the few things to get excited about this year so it would still be sad to see him go.
How many other flair players do we have though? The only times 'zogbia has had decent games this season has been when Ireland has been on the pitch with him.
Bannan and Ireland can play in the same team I think aswell.
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Kt villan, I'm talking about N'Zogbia, Bannan, maybe even Petrov if Herd played as the holding midfielder and Robbie Keane or A.N. other if they were signed in the summer.
Merson and Carbone were more reliable than Ireland in my view. Merson was a legend for villa quite simply while Carbone and Ginola came with better reputations than Ireland. What I'm saying is, you are never sure what Stephen Ireland will show up. he could throw a strop tomorrow and not feature for the rest of the season. If we got decent money for him I'm sure we could reinvest in something more reliable and/or allow Bannan a chance to shine next year.
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Merson struggled for a year to find form and pissed off to New York mid season without telling anyone so not a million miles from Ireland!
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Petrov does not have the same energy or give and go as Ireland and Bannan has a lot to prove before we can say he's a match for the baldy fella. Ireland is by far the best we can hope for at the moment.
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Merson and Carbone were more reliable than Ireland in my view. Merson was a legend for villa quite simply while Carbone and Ginola came with better reputations than Ireland. What I'm saying is, you are never sure what Stephen Ireland will show up. he could throw a strop tomorrow and not feature for the rest of the season. If we got decent money for him I'm sure we could reinvest in something more reliable and/or allow Bannan a chance to shine next year.
IMO Ireland works pretty hard for the team. Whilst he has the maverick characteristics of Merson/Ginola, I think one of his major assets is his tracking back, interceptions and desire to get forward. This maybe was not evident when he first arrived but now his fitness levels seem to have improved I think we are starting to see his true value.
I admit he is less likely to score that lob Merson did v Everton (?) but he is also less likely to go completely missing.