Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine

Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Rip Van We Go Again on March 07, 2012, 10:38:01 AM

Title: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: Rip Van We Go Again on March 07, 2012, 10:38:01 AM
Doesn't seem to happen anymore.

Surely there must be another potential Mark Delaney out there?

Why do top flight clubs no longer do it?

Laziness or fear of gambling on an unknown quantity?

Standard in lower divisions is poorer these days, or are modern day coaches no longer capable of shining a rough diamond?

Discuss.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: Simon Ward on March 07, 2012, 11:09:23 AM
Jordan Rhodes! Need I say more?
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: villanic on March 07, 2012, 11:11:11 AM
I think the price of some of the lower league players put a lot of people off. Jordan Rhodes at Huddersfield being valued at around £4m and that’s a lot of money to pay for someone who has only scored goals in league 1.

I wouldn’t be surprised though if a few more clubs in the top flight started looking at the championship for players based on what the some of the Norwich and Swansea players have achieved this season.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: FatSam on March 07, 2012, 11:13:08 AM
There was a discussion about this on the Monday Night Club on R5 this week, prompted by an interview with Rickie Lambert of Southampton. Apparently he played in the same Rochdale team as Grant Holt of Norwich. The general consensus was that there are players knocking about in the lower leagues who could easily do a job in the top flight, but who are overlooked on the basis of their CV. I don't follow lower league football closely enough to have an opinion on whether this is true or not.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: cheltenhamlion on March 07, 2012, 11:15:53 AM
I have been on about Rhodes for a couple of seasons as it goes.

There are still bargains to be had but the driver in football these days is instant success so I guess that is why less teams take a punt.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on March 07, 2012, 11:17:57 AM
Overseas players. So why bother ?
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: PaulWinch again on March 07, 2012, 11:19:18 AM
There are bound to players out there, most notably Clynne and Zaha but I guess you mean lower down than that. As people have mentioned Rhodes will get picked up at somepoint. I'm sure the players are out there, not sure why there isn't much desire to search.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: Matt C on March 07, 2012, 11:20:06 AM
Inflated costs even in the lower leagues of English football puts people off I guess. Unless your name is Martin of course.

Always thought Clyne at Palace looked decent and surprised no PL club has taken a punt on Whittingham.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: villanic on March 07, 2012, 11:30:31 AM
Apparently Rhodes is on over 10k a week at Huddersfield as well. Don’t know how true that is though, I heard Darren Gough say it on Talksport so It might be bollocks.

I’ve seen Southampton a couple of time on sky and thought Lallana looks very good but looks like they’re getting promoted this season.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: nigel on March 07, 2012, 11:37:09 AM
I'll probably get crucified for this, but, the young lad at Blues, Redmond looks half decent. Villa fan, too, apparently.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: villanic on March 07, 2012, 11:42:51 AM
Most of the players being mentioned seem to be attacking players and I don’t think AM would go for any of them. More likely he’ll go for League 2 defenders who can really launch the ball up to the target man!

Don’t like to admit it but I think Redmond looks a decent player to.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: mal on March 07, 2012, 11:45:00 AM
Ihav
There was a discussion about this on the Monday Night Club on R5 this week, prompted by an interview with Richie Lambert of Southampton. Apparently he played in the same Rochdale team as Grant Holt of Norwich. The general consensus was that there are players knocking about in the lower leagues who could easily do a job in the top flight, but who are overlooked on the basis of their CV. I don't follow lower league football closely enough to have an opinion on whether this is true or not.
I have never understood why Lambert hasnt done better.
2005–2006    Rochdale    64    (28)
2006–2009    Bristol Rovers    128    (51)
2009–    Southampton    120    (70)
When you consider that both Rochdale and The Gas were struggling at the foot of their tables that looks a lot better. Add to that his seemless transfer of form up a division twice with Southampton and you wonder why no one gave him a go.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: villanic on March 07, 2012, 11:53:45 AM
Ihav
There was a discussion about this on the Monday Night Club on R5 this week, prompted by an interview with Richie Lambert of Southampton. Apparently he played in the same Rochdale team as Grant Holt of Norwich. The general consensus was that there are players knocking about in the lower leagues who could easily do a job in the top flight, but who are overlooked on the basis of their CV. I don't follow lower league football closely enough to have an opinion on whether this is true or not.
I have never understood why Lambert hasnt done better.
2005–2006    Rochdale    64    (28)
2006–2009    Bristol Rovers    128    (51)
2009–    Southampton    120    (70)
When you consider that both Rochdale and The Gas were struggling at the foot of their tables that looks a lot better. Add to that his seemless transfer of form up a division twice with Southampton and you wonder why no one gave him a go.

Robbie Earnshaw scored goals in all the lower leagues but stuggled in the prem. I think thats the main worry over a lot of the players in championship and below, Can they make the step up?

I would like to see more get a chance to have a go at the prem but i think clubs are scared to take the risk.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: Legion on March 07, 2012, 12:10:50 PM
I'll probably get crucified for this, but, the young lad at Blues, Redmond looks half decent. Villa fan, too, apparently.

Why would you get crucified for that? Redmond is an excellent prospect.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: Dave on March 07, 2012, 12:18:56 PM
Robbie Earnshaw scored goals in all the lower leagues but stuggled in the prem
Comparatively so, but he still finished as West Brom's top scorer that season with 14 goals.

If we spent £3/4m on a lower-league striker and he got 14 goals next season I'd consider that a great return.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: Concrete John on March 07, 2012, 12:23:49 PM
I would like to see more get a chance to have a go at the prem but i think clubs are scared to take the risk.

Yet they'll take similar risks on a foreign player from an inferior league.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: glasses on March 07, 2012, 12:27:20 PM
Robbie Earnshaw scored goals in all the lower leagues but stuggled in the prem
Comparatively so, but he still finished as West Brom's top scorer that season with 14 goals.

If we spent £3/4m on a lower-league striker and he got 14 goals next season I'd consider that a great return.
My Albion fan mate says Earnshaw is/was a little bit like a poor mans Bent. He is a good poacher at any level, but it is like playing with 10 men. You have to give him chances, or else its pointless him being in the team.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: DBTW on March 07, 2012, 12:32:01 PM
Jermaine Beckford was tipped for the top wjhilst at Leeds, scored more than Rhodes yet failed to cut it at the top level.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: cheltenhamlion on March 07, 2012, 12:33:33 PM
I am not so close to it any more but used to watch a lot of lower league football.

I wanted Bent when he was at Ipswich, Tim Cahill and Phil Jagielka were always going to make it in the top flight as well.

You just need to scout it properly although I do take the cheap, foreign imports argument on board as well.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 07, 2012, 12:34:19 PM
I would like to see more get a chance to have a go at the prem but i think clubs are scared to take the risk.

Yet they'll take similar risks on a foreign player from an inferior league.

Inferior to league one and league two? Hmm. Not too sure about that.

I am sure most aren't inferior to the Championship, but when you get up to that level, home based players start to attract much bigger transfer fees, and larger wages, I imagine.

I'd like us to source the best players we possibly can for our money from the biggest pool of players available, which means looking at all markets - sounds like stating the obvious, but the fact we never did that for four years under MON explains in large part the financial shit we are in now.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: Concrete John on March 07, 2012, 12:37:25 PM
I remember some pundit commenting on Beckford during his time at Leeds, saying you need to look at the type of goals he scores.  This was mainly playing on the shoulder and racing through to finish.  All well and good in Division 1, but as you go up the levels the defenders will be quicker, meaning he won't be able to do that.

Turns out he was right.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: pedro25 on March 07, 2012, 12:38:23 PM
Fabian Delph.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: Brian Taylor on March 07, 2012, 12:40:41 PM
Croft: Speedy Left-winger from Leyton Orient. Bit runty but quick, and good passer of the ball!
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: Clampy on March 07, 2012, 12:44:57 PM
Dan Harding at Southampton. Attacking left back and good going forward.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: Concrete John on March 07, 2012, 12:50:23 PM
Inferior to league one and league two? Hmm. Not too sure about that.

What I meant was that the lower leagues and quite a few foreign leagues are inferior to the PL.  As such, you have that element of doubt about them being able to go up a level.  And add in the extra concern over foreign players settling in England, even if from one of the stronger European leagues.

That's not an anti-foreign player argument, but rather one for the lower UK leagues as it's a similar gamble, but one PL clubs make much more often with foreign players. 
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: Legion on March 07, 2012, 12:52:35 PM
Our Enda?
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: knowsleyvillain on March 07, 2012, 01:00:36 PM
Matt phillips at blackpool also a few of the stevenage players looked good in the cup game against spurs.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: PaulWinch again on March 07, 2012, 01:08:39 PM
If you're looking in the Championship there are quite a few potential players.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: villanic on March 07, 2012, 01:09:44 PM
Matt phillips at blackpool also a few of the stevenage players looked good in the cup game against spurs.

Was that just a case of them raising there game against a big club for the cup though?
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: N'ZMAV on March 07, 2012, 01:10:01 PM
Peter Whittingham?
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: N'ZMAV on March 07, 2012, 01:10:23 PM
Matt phillips at blackpool also a few of the stevenage players looked good in the cup game against spurs.
Looks a useful player. As does Ricky Lambert.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: myf on March 07, 2012, 01:11:08 PM
Whittingham.  He has turned out into a decent player.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: knowsleyvillain on March 07, 2012, 01:21:19 PM
Thats possible villanic, there was a lad playing wide that had a cracking game lawrie Wilson i think.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: ozzjim on March 07, 2012, 01:31:44 PM
Matt Phillips looks like he has a great future to me from the few times I have seen him. There must be quite a few. Clyne would be top of my shopping list this summer. Speedy, good full back that can play both sides. Yes please.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: Dave Cooper please on March 07, 2012, 02:11:29 PM
One reason is Premier League Acadamies. The best young players are at Premier League clubs as soon as they show any glimpse of talent, there's not a lot left for lower league clubs. Players like Jordan Rhodes have shown their talent at a slightly later age and were probably missed by the PL scouts.
 Southampton are a rare example of a lower league club bringing through a conveyor belt of talent, but they have the advantage of being in an area with only Portsmouth having been a PL club recently.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: nigel on March 07, 2012, 02:15:32 PM
I'll probably get crucified for this, but, the young lad at Blues, Redmond looks half decent. Villa fan, too, apparently.

Why would you get crucified for that? Redmond is an excellent prospect.
There are those out there, Legion, who wouldn't consider him simply because he's a Blues player.
There are those who aren't that shallow though, I suppose it depends on who's reading the thread.
Peter Whittingham, another former Villa player who was allowed to go too cheaply, in my mind. He's certainly developed into a fine player.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: Legion on March 07, 2012, 04:29:55 PM
I'll probably get crucified for this, but, the young lad at Blues, Redmond looks half decent. Villa fan, too, apparently.

Why would you get crucified for that? Redmond is an excellent prospect.
There are those out there, Legion, who wouldn't consider him simply because he's a Blues player.

Then they need to grow up a bit and stop being so narrow-minded. Anyone remember Peter Withe?
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: eric woolban woolban on March 07, 2012, 07:57:08 PM
I guess long gone are the days when someone who played on the Hackney marshes made it big.

Les Ferdinand, Ian Wright and Stuart Pearce spring to mind.

But I guess, as pointed out earlier, that the scouting systems in place now, pick up the majority of talent at an early age.

Though for some reason I was overlooked...
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: Grande Pablo on March 07, 2012, 09:26:35 PM
I've said on here before that we should get first in the queue for Adam Lallana.

Joe Mason at Cardiff looks OK.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: Legion on March 07, 2012, 09:27:29 PM
Any chance of someone called Messi?
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: Brian Taylor on March 08, 2012, 10:41:16 AM
Dean Cox..not Croft. Great winger who can beat his man and gets the ball into the penalty area. Classic player!
Most impressed. Right age at 23 and an improving player who also scores a few.
http://www.leytonorient.com/page/ProfilesDetail/0,,10439~33198,00.html
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: spangley1812 on March 08, 2012, 10:50:30 AM
Tom Lees (centre-half) and Adrain White (left back) @ Leeds 
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: Mister E on March 08, 2012, 12:45:29 PM
I think there are some interesting issues here. Why is there not more coming from the lower leagues? -
- laziness on the part of managers / coaches.
- not 'glamour' signings.
- a risk, similar to the risk taken on promoting kids from the Academy (at leas tthe Academy kids know the club, the set-up, etc).
- not 'instant' enough, compared to a seasoned cheaper import.

I think, like many business or investment decisions, that a manager should have a mixed squad originating from several sources and the lower leagues is just another player-source.

Players mature and peak at different times and it may take a spell in the lower leagues for them to mature and develop as Ricky Lambert has.

Nothing wrong with measured speculation on experienced players, IMHO.

Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: PaulWinch again on March 08, 2012, 01:18:38 PM
Redmond does look great, couldn't care a less that he plays for Blues. However I think he'd cost a lot.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: Concrete John on March 08, 2012, 01:24:00 PM
Redmond does look great, couldn't care a less that he plays for Blues. However I think he'd cost a lot.

Given their financial situation and presuming they don't get promotion, I actually think he might represent a good little deal, value wise.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: Dante Lavelli on March 09, 2012, 04:23:00 PM
Isn't the Barnsley captain about 22 years old?
We were briefly linked to hom before he was injured.
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: spangley1812 on March 09, 2012, 04:30:03 PM
Isn't the Barnsley captain about 22 years old?
We were briefly linked to hom before he was injured.

Jacob Butterfield I think...........
Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: Rip Van We Go Again on March 09, 2012, 05:13:06 PM
Isn't the Barnsley captain about 22 years old?
We were briefly linked to hom before he was injured.

Jacob Butterfield I think...........

It's not this bloke, is it?

Title: Re: Shopping in the Lower Leagues
Post by: spangley1812 on March 09, 2012, 05:16:32 PM
Isn't the Barnsley captain about 22 years old?
We were briefly linked to hom before he was injured.

Jacob Butterfield I think...........

It's not this bloke, is it?



no this one...............


http://www.just-football.com/2011/12/gems-of-the-lower-leagues-jacob-butterfield/
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