Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Chinchilla Bathhouse on February 02, 2012, 03:03:50 AM
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Posted this somewhere in the midst of the post-match thread, but I'm a persistent bugger and wondered if it warranted a discussion of its own.
How much do we blame Shay Given for our Chucklevision defending? He seems to have spent his whole career behind a comedy defence (the Newcastle one was particularly inept). Coincidence? I had this debate a couple of years back with a Citeh fan I know when Given was there; we concluded that he's a great shot stopper but his command of his area and his defence is pretty poor - which is why he has so many shots to stop. I mean, I think Lev Yashin would struggle behind our gormless defenders, but I do wonder if they'd be a bit less prone to cock-ups with a proper shouter and organiser in goal. I mean, did Warnock get a shout to tell him he had time? Or to head it away from goal, rather than into it? Dunne was never getting there, Given could see there was no QPR player bearing down on Warnock - did he let him know? I thought we looked a bit more comfortable at the back when Guzan was in goal. Maybe Brad's got a bit more presence. Just a thought.
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1, 2, 2, 0, 1, 2.
That was what we conceded in league games Brad started while Given was out. Half the time we still needed to score 3 to win. I think it's the defensive unit as a whole and don't think changing 1 part will make a fat lot of difference.
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The Irish team have one of the best defensive records in international football in recent years and alot of this is down to Given. He probably is a bit quiet compared to many other Premiership keepers but I still think he's better than most and is easily the most reliable player we have at the back.
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I've put this in other threads.
Good shot stopper, doesn't command area, doesn't direct defenders.
By not commanding the area, he is forced to make saves that he needn't make, which makes him look better than he is.
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Given is the least of our problems. Our defensive woes are down to how we defend as a unit rather than any individual.
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Couple of times last night he could have made the defences job a bit easier but giving them a shout. Hutton played the ball out for a couple of pointless corners, but he had no idea he had other options.
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I've put this in other threads.
Good shot stopper, doesn't command area, doesn't direct defenders.
By not commanding the area, he is forced to make saves that he needn't make, which makes him look better than he is.
Exactly right.
However, if he were able to command his area and organise the defence better then he would be one of the very best in the world and would probably have been in goal for ManYoo or Barcelona for the last decade.
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However, if he were able to command his area and organise the defence better then he would be one of the very best in the world and would probably have been in goal for ManYoo or Barcelona for the last decade.
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Good point!
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Don't remember Given making many appearances last season and the defence was still shocking for the most part. There's not much a keeper can do when your centre half jumps for the ball and completely misses it and then your left-back pulls off an superb header. When they panned to AM on the telly, i was half-expecting him to be screaming "See...thats how you do it" at Ivanhoe
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Don't remember Given making many appearances last season and the defence was still shocking for the most part. There's not much a keeper can do when your centre half jumps for the ball and completely misses it and then your left-back pulls off an superb header.
That's because Friedel is also a very decent keeper. Not as good a shot-stopper as Given but his oft-ridiculed 'away' shouts are just the sort of thing that stop last night's calamity from happening - tell the defenders exactly what you expect them to do.
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I would have thought it would be self-evident what was required. The own-goal fuck-up had two of them to deal with it and no pressure from the opposition at all. A basic clearance was all that was needed and Given was exactly where you'd want him
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I would have thought it would be self-evident what was required. The own-goal fuck-up had two of them to deal with it and no pressure from the opposition at all. A basic clearance was all that was needed and Given was exactly where you'd want him
Agreed - but he still doesn't communicate or organise as much or as well as Friedel did/does.
And it's not as if Friedel was the absolute master of it either.
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I've put this in other threads.
Good shot stopper, doesn't command area, doesn't direct defenders.
By not commanding the area, he is forced to make saves that he needn't make, which makes him look better than he is.
I've yet to find a Newcastle supporter that doesn't regret him leaving and they had some shambolic defences during his tenure
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Suits me - I'd swap him for Krul in a heartbeat.
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Friedel and Given both at the same level...both been and still are excellent keepers but both have flaws which mean neither have lasted too long at a top club.
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Given is the least of our problems. Our defensive woes are down to how we defend as a unit rather than any individual.
This. Given is brill
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I don't think it's a major point in all honesty. Utd's defence weren't brilliant in the early 90's because Schmeichal kept rollicking Pallister and Bruce. The amount of times defenders hang up their boots and are asked about the loud keepers they've had behind them, and invariably they say "I ignored him half the time."
But yes, Given could shout more and it'd help...a little bit. But frankly defenders shouldn't be told what to do, they should fucking do it.
The way people talk about footballers sometimes you wonder if they're mindless moronic robots. If a ball comes in, clear it. Always play safety first. If a shout is required to let a defender know he's got someone on his blindside, then I'm sure Given would do so.
For me it's not the keepers job to organise the defence it's between the coaching, and the whole defensive unit as a whole.
What can given do about his fullbacks tackling like pillocks, or his centrebacks looking like their playing on different pitches? He can't.
Given's still one of the best in the business. When we've had better defenders in the past, we've defended better. And when we've had better management we've defended better. It's not even purely down to tactics, it's man motivation too. Players who bust a gut for MON did nothing for Houllier and are giving the minimum for Mcleish.
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The way people talk about footballers sometimes you wonder if they're mindless moronic robots.
Not robots, because then I'd expect them to be consistent and efficient. But mindless and moronic...yep, I'd say that's most footballers. Jam for brains.
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For me it's not the keepers job to organise the defence it's between the coaching, and the whole defensive unit as a whole.
I've got to be honest but from my playing experience that is far from the truth. In one of the teams I played in (an extreme example) the keeper pretty much dictated the organisation of the defence and a chunk of the midfield. Maybe I have had shit mangers but rarely have they had much influence once the match has started beyond substitutions.
It was rumoured when we signed Given that he lacks organisational ability however I think a new keeper is way down on our list of priorities especially with Guzan in the wings (who certainly doesn't lack shouting ability).