Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Concrete John on January 30, 2012, 01:51:15 PM
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We're crap at the back. Even if we didn't know it before yesterday, we certainly know it now. The question is though - how do we fix it?
Working on the assumption that there are to be no further transfer deals done, how should we look to tighten up at the back? We tried Clark at LB against Wolves, which didn't work. We brought Cuellar in against Arsenal twice now and have conceded 5 in those two games - all stupid goals that were our own fault. The answer may be to work with them harder on the training pitch, but ultimately it's hard not to conclude that they aren't good enough.
I'd be looking to freshen things up at the back, which has the added benefit of keeping them on their toes and worried for their place, by using a combination of Clark at CB, Stevens at LB and Herd (when fit) at RB, although one of Herd or Clark would be needed in midfield at a time. Not wholesale changes, but trying other combinations out and seeing what works. It may be that the kick up the arse of being dropped for a few games sees improved performances from some one or two. First name sitting out would be Dunne, just to show nobody is safe.
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They need to be moved on. They're not going to be, so any tinkering at the back isn't going to do much unless we've got a future bobby moore coming through.
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Carlos in for Collins. Didn't think he put a foot wrong yesterday.
Tell Hutton he's not a bloody wing back and to focus on his defending. The amount of times Carlos had to cover for him yesterday was pathetic. This left big spaces in the centre for Dunne to cover alone. Often it's Albrighton that looks like the full back as Hutton goes walk about.
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Tough, at this stage of the season and with no real possibility of recruiting anyone, and given our limitations elsewhere - ie, I'd be playing Clark at CB in an ideal world, but he's needed in midfield and I'd keep him there, where I think he's done well.
I'd weigh up the situation in the league, assume we're probably going to be safe, and start playing Lichaj at RB and Stevens at LB straight away - I think we have problems at full back that are more worrying than CB. In the middle, it's a Cuellar and Dunne pairing. Clark remains in a defensive midfield role.
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Get on the training ground with the defenders we have, work hard hour after hour. Work particularly at set pieces and corners, and work at distributing the ball out to your midfield players . Then work some more.
Boring suggestion I know, but the best I can come up with to minimise mistakes and to retain possession of the football more.
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leftfield suggestion but try sticking delpth in at centre half. He's never gonna be a midfielder and maybe he could cover for Dunne's speed deficiencies a bit more than collins or carlos . Again i'd have clarke in the middle but as others have said we need him in midfield. Carlos on the right and erm..well thats when my cunning plan falls apart a bit.....
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leftfield suggestion but try sticking delpth in at centre half. He's never gonna be a midfielder and maybe he could cover for Dunne's speed deficiencies a bit more than collins or carlos
Other then the fact he's only 5' 9", has never played CB and is currently playing for Leeds, that's actually a pretty.....................actually, no it isn't!
To be fair though Carlos at RB would solve one problem, at least in terms of the defensive side of the position.
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I think at the moment there is very little we can do, I'd drop Hutton for Lichaj and when fit I might play N'Zog at left back as he's played there in the past. There needs to be serious surgery done in the summer and the club needs to reassess it's approach.
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leftfield suggestion but try sticking delpth in at centre half. He's never gonna be a midfielder and maybe he could cover for Dunne's speed deficiencies a bit more than collins or carlos
Other then the fact he's only 5' 9", has never played CB and is currently playing for Leeds, that's actually a pretty.....................actually, no it isn't!
To be fair though Carlos at RB would solve one problem, at least in terms of the defensive side of the position.
yep, as you say you've got the height issue with delpth but there's been plenty of smallish good centre halfs The trouble is we've haven't got the squad size to replace like for like so somewhere along the line someone would have to play out of position and see if that improves matters. I suppose we could bring Beye back.....
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My views are that every one of the defenders is a liability and has to go. I appreciate it cant happen by the end of this window though!! You shouldnt make wholesale changes in one go but when you have Frank Spencer playing in your back four in a number of positions you have to do something. Lichai is back just in time we should have Herd back soon Stevens is getting game time and with the emergence of Gardner we may be able to drop Clark back. There are options to get us to the end of the season. Long term we have Derrick Williams Joshua Webb Bradley Lewis and Oli Stevenson so all these can be the back up. So in the summer get rid of the lot of them. Get Clyne in cheap also look at McFadzean of Crawley. This season is damage limitation but in the summer BOMB them out.
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I think the NZogbia at left back shout is a brilliant one. He has the pace, and it could allow him time to settle while being in the side and contributing.
At right back Cuellar is a must for me.
But we also need to make sure they are then protected well, both the full backs from the flanks and the centre backs through the middle. Clark and Herd together maybe when he is fit, with Petrov taking a wee break? If you have Ireland, Albrighton, Agbonlahor and Bent in front, you need to be protecting the back 4. 2 sitters in Herd and Clark might give us a bit more control.
Then sit Collins and Dunne down and tell them they are being monitored, closely, and every needless hoof, moment of madness, losing a man from a corner etc, will be a mark against them.
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New back four of
Lichaj Cuellar Dunne Stevens
Playing wingers to support the full backs too. So i'd play Albrighton and N'zogbia.
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Given
Cuellar Dunne Clark N'Zogbia
Gardner Petrov
Ireland Keane Gabby
Bent
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Trying N'Zogbia at left back is something that didn't occur to me, but I do think is an excellent shout.
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We cant afford to play Bent,Gabby,keane and ireland in same line up,leaves midfield too light,and no protection for the two worst full backs in the premiership( and lower)
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My thoughts on suggesting N'Zog as left back is that I think it's largely a no lose scenario. He couldn't possibly be worse than Warnock, and he offers the attacking threat I think full backs need nowadays. As I say his early career was a left back as well, so he has some experience in the position.
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We cant afford to play Bent,Gabby,keane and ireland in same line up,leaves midfield too light,and no protection for the two worst full backs in the premiership( and lower)
I agree. Gardner did well on the right second half against Wolves, and so did Albrighton down the left.
Gabby does not do a great job in protecting his full back, Ashley Young was brilliant at it in fairness.
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Nzogbia at left back is the kind of radical idea that works! Im sure he played there for the Geordies a few times.
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Bad idea! let's try that Stevens kid.
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Bad idea! let's try that Stevens kid.
My original idea is a bit of 'mix & match' to try different things and see what works, so I say try them both and see who's best there.
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Good idea.
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Delph at centre back? How many penalties would we concede?!
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N'Zogbia played lots of times for Newcastle at left back and did very well. I'm not opposed to the idea.
I think fundamentally we can try and sharpen the defenders we have up until better players can be acquired. However, we just have to stick to getting at teams and not sitting back soaking up pressure because we're as absorbent as plastic.
Yesterday was a classic example of this.
The more we have the ball and the more we play in the oppnents half, the less our defence has to do and the less they have to do, the better.
Incidentally, Delph at centre half is the perhaps the worst suggestion I have ever heard about anything ever. It's the Sinclair C5 of footballing ideas.
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As well as needing to improve defence, we must learn to retain the ball. We have been giving it away so cheaply for years now. It is pathetic.
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Surprised at the calls for Cuellar, he was poor yesterday and had a shocker at RB against Swansea. I think he's already moved on mentally.
I honestly don't think we have many realistic options to change things it's a question of muddling through until the summer and rebuilding then.
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I also think the second half yesterday exposed Clark's inexperience in midfield, he's done very well there previously but the speed and movement of Ramsey in particular exposed him time and again.
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How bout Heskey at centre back? The best game I can recall him having in recent memory (well, not that recent) was him playing there for Wigan, last game of the season a few years back, with them needing a result to stay up. He was shockingly immense.
Maybe I'm joking. Maybe I'm not. ;)
To be fair though, can he do any worse than Collins this season?
But yeah, a whole new back line would be nice. If not for Given we'd be in even worse shite right now.
N'Zog at left back is a good shout. Defensively can't be any worse than Warnock and would at least offer something going forward. It might also be a good way to fit him in the side effectively right now, because I wouldn't drop Ireland or Alby for him and one of them would have to make way.
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There needs to be a major overhaul, we have players out of position, players that haven't gelled, we have a back 4 that don't communicate, Hutton clearance of the line yesterday slamming the ball into an Arsenal player and then into the net was nothing short of total panic, Bent's tackle back was IMO frustration by a player that wanted to be re-engaged with the game.
Question is not what we would do, what is the chairman going to do, if he hasn't backed McLiesh now why will he in the summer when there is every likelihood that things will be even tighter , not just globally, but falling gates, lack of achievements, can't see it.
There is a rumour (and it probably is just that) that Lerner is offering the club up for sale and this lot in Quatar are interested.
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I don't want fear overcoming me every time one of our current full backs gets the ball so there is little point in bumbling on with what we've got. The pair of them are beyond any revelation in the art of playing football let alone defending that might beset them on the training ground.
Give any combination of Lichaj, Herd, N'Zog, Cuellar the positions as all of them can defend adequately instantly improving the team.
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There was always one pretty consistent thing about supporting villa until last season and that was that we'd be strong in defence. We always had great defenders from McGrath, Teale, Southgate and Ehiogu through to Staunton, Mellberg, Laursen and even Dunne in his first season.
I have never seen a villa team defend so poorly as we have last season and this. Watching villa you were always sure we would battle and keep things tight making it hard for teams to score against us. Scoring goals was always our problem (except maybe the MON era). Now we just look a shambles at the back. No leadership, no lionheart, no calming influence just panic and hoofing.
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Delph at CB is a massive no no! Not sure what was going through your mind when that was suggested.
Nzog at left back is a very good shout in my opinion. When Lichaj is fit then he should be right back. My back four would be
Lichaj Dunne Collins Nzog
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Six years in to Randy's glorious reign, and we're talking about N'Zogbia at left back, and Heskey or Delph in central defence. Christ on a bike.
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Six years in to Randy's glorious reign, and we're talking about N'Zogbia at left back, and Heskey or Delph in central defence. Christ on a bike.
Or Moses on a skateboard.
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Six years in to Randy's glorious reign, and we're talking about N'Zogbia at left back, and Heskey or Delph in central defence. Christ on a bike.
Re: Nzog at leftback, maybe thats because he has played there before and cant do any worse than Warnock?
As for Delph at CB, I really have no idea what was on their minds when that was suggested
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Six years in to Randy's glorious reign, and we're talking about N'Zogbia at left back, and Heskey or Delph in central defence. Christ on a bike.
When you put it like that... Wasn't somebody on about bringing in Ridgewell recently or was I having a nightmare?
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Six years in to Randy's glorious reign, and we're talking about N'Zogbia at left back, and Heskey or Delph in central defence. Christ on a bike.
Delph at CB was a suggestion by our old friend the Gnasher, so can be filed with any number of his other pearls of wisdom in your nearest convenient bin.
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Six years in to Randy's glorious reign, and we're talking about N'Zogbia at left back, and Heskey or Delph in central defence. Christ on a bike.
When you put it like that... Wasn't somebody on about bringing in Ridgewell recently or was I having a nightmare?
I seem to remember a lot of people stating what a good signing Hutton was at the time. I think it's called cognitive dissonance; when people convince themselves that a negative event is actually a positive, and become more and more entrenched, regardless of the evidence.
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We could do the big change ready for next season with:
Given
Lichaj Cuellar Clark Stevens
Albrighton Herd Gardner Bannan N'Zog
Gabby
Obviously injuries permitting.
At the moment I feel Bent might be a luxury we can't afford. I would try and get Andy Carrol from Liverpool, simply because he puts it about more than DB. I would also consider Garys brother to give us some bite in the midfield.
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I see nothing wrong with being positive about the Hutton signing at the time. Relatively young Scottish international who Spurs paid a lot of money for, but struggled to get into their team. Seemed a decent move to me, so I won't go back and retrospectively ciriticise it because he hasn't worked out yet.
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At the moment I feel Bent might be a luxury we can't afford. I would try and get Andy Carrol from Liverpool, simply because he puts it about more than DB.
Would Carrol have scored that chance yesterday ? Errr I dont think so! Have you not see Carrol's scoring record since he joined LFC and this season? If we had him, we would be in the bottom 3 for sure.
What makes you think we cant afford him?
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Carroll is being found out - half a decent season in the PL for Newcastle, lots of goals in the Championship, and he goes for £35m.
Absolute madness.
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Were being run on a budget with both eyes on the UEFA financial rules. Nothing more nothing less. There is no agenda. There are no wealthy Arab buyers. Randy isnt looking to sell. He would sell if a buyer comes in with wads of cash but that buyer in the present circumstances besetting the world isnt out there. Saying that we have to go with what we have though each senior defender has to be on the get rid of list. Why is it that the biggest critics of everything Villa on this forum are the ones who never set foot in Villa Park?
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I think it is about more than the UEFA fair play rules. They only apply when you're actually in Europe, anyway.
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And I reckon we are just about the only club who is going to play by the rules. I doubt that our management are the only ones who have realised that they are coming in, especially considering the aptitude for football club management they have exhibited in recent times.
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Carroll is being found out - half a decent season in the PL for Newcastle, lots of goals in the Championship, and he goes for £35m.
Absolute madness.
He didn't even score that many in the Championship. 19 in 40, imagine how many Bent would get in 40 Championship games playing for a team that romped to the title.
Andy Carroll for £35mill has to be one of the biggest moments of madness in a sport that has never ending money madness.
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I think The Baggies are playing the same game as us. Arsenal wont upset their wage structure for anything either. I would like to know where we go in the summer when another couple of high earners are off the wage bill. When do we stop cutting?
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N'zogbia did start off as a left back but he was poor defensively. He was sold to Wigan as a left back if I remember rightly, and a pretty poor one at that. Wouldn't ideally play him there, as I'd prefer he was in the team on the wing when he's fit. Lichaj and Cuellar should probably given the nod as first choice full backs, but I really can't see Hutton or Warnock being dropped. Hutton is a McLeish player and after dropping Warnock last week and the comments he made, I don't think he'll do it again.
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Six years in to Randy's glorious reign, and we're talking about N'Zogbia at left back, and Heskey or Delph in central defence. Christ on a bike.
Delph at CB was a suggestion by our old friend the Gnasher, so can be filed with any number of his other pearls of wisdom in your nearest convenient bin.
well i said it was leftfield and really its desperation to get something out of a player who's been useless or else its another 6m down the tube with all the rest of MON's 'gems'. Anyway it's not much more mental than paying 10m for a winger and playing him at fullback like some are suggesting
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Greg, a winger that played the first 3-4 years of his career at full back, so not really that out there as a suggestion! He is even still listed on Football Manager as a left back/ winger ;-)
Delph, a short arsed midfielder, more attacking than holding, as a centre back is a bit more men in white coats.
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well it is, but Delph has to be good at playing somewhere surely?. I mean even with our limited options in midfield AM has still seen fit to shove him off to leeds. Playing N'Zogbia at left-back rather begs the question why did we buy him at all for 10m, when we could have saved our money and just bought a decent left-back.
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I suggested nzogbia as left back a couple of weeks ago. I'd give the following a go:
given
cuellar dunne clark nzogbia
gardner bannan ireland
albrigton gabby
bent
with keane coming off the bench after an hour and lichaj to replace gabby and push nzog forward if we're struggling, the pull the wingers deeper to protect the full backs and push ireland/keane into 'the hole'.
The line up relies on the midfield trio playing keep ball and making space for each other which is why I've gone for the 3 players capable of doing that. I think Mazrim said earlier on the thread the key until we can get some replacements in and build a proper defence is to keep the ball away from them. The current 'style' of letting the opposition have 60% possession clearly doesn't work, it's the failure to realise and address this aspect that has left me convinced McLeish is taking us nowhere good.
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Bring back Olaf!
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At the moment I feel Bent might be a luxury we can't afford. I would try and get Andy Carrol from Liverpool, simply because he puts it about more than DB.
Would Carrol have scored that chance yesterday ? Errr I dont think so! Have you not see Carrol's scoring record since he joined LFC and this season? If we had him, we would be in the bottom 3 for sure.
What makes you think we cant afford him?
You're right, Carrol probably wouldn't have scored that chance yesterday, he may have scored the first time though :D The other side of the coin is, would he have been caught offside 4 times?
Don't get me wrong, I like DB, but, when we signed him we had Young and Downing firing in quality for him, oh for that now. And I'm certainly glad we had him last season.
We haven't got that this season. He's a poacher, and a good one at that. He's not a player who'll get busy, and I just feel that quite a lot this season it's been like playing with 10 men.
Carrol is being played differently to how he was at Newcastle and I just think that he'd give more to the team.
I agree his scoring record at Liverpool hasn't been good, but he's quality and it will happen.
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At the moment I feel Bent might be a luxury we can't afford. I would try and get Andy Carrol from Liverpool, simply because he puts it about more than DB.
Would Carrol have scored that chance yesterday ? Errr I dont think so! Have you not see Carrol's scoring record since he joined LFC and this season? If we had him, we would be in the bottom 3 for sure.
What makes you think we cant afford him?
You're right, Carrol probably wouldn't have scored that chance yesterday, he may have scored the first time though :D The other side of the coin is, would he have been caught offside 4 times?
Don't get me wrong, I like DB, but, when we signed him we had Young and Downing firing in quality for him, oh for that now. And I'm certainly glad we had him last season.
We haven't got that this season. He's a poacher, and a good one at that. He's not a player who'll get busy, and I just feel that quite a lot this season it's been like playing with 10 men.
Carrol is being played differently to how he was at Newcastle and I just think that he'd give more to the team.
I agree his scoring record at Liverpool hasn't been good, but he's quality and it will happen.
I don't understand this at all. Bent will score us goals, even this season his record is good, he isn't the problem, he's one of the few people who is doing the job he's in the team to do.
The major issue in the squad, as I've been saying for months, is our complete inability to retain possession. Our players are always looking for the ultra safe option, which invariably leads to the ball ending up at the feet of the keeper with the only option to punt it up field. When this then doesn't stick to Bent people start to call him a passenger. We need to spend a huge portion of our time in training working on pass and move, making triangles and giving the player on the ball options. Once this becomes second nature the difference on the pitch will be huge. If we start this now we'll know by the summer which players aren't capable of adapting to it and we can get rid of them and bring in replacements.
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I find most keepers hate a ball passed back to them. Look at how many make a hash of the clearance.
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I would seriously consider having Bent on the bench, as much as we say it isnt his fault his ball retention is awful, and he privides no outlet, he does not run the chanels to give us any outlet at all, so the opposition just keep coming back at us. We should have the players to enable us to carry the Bent threat but we dont.
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At the moment I feel Bent might be a luxury we can't afford. I would try and get Andy Carrol from Liverpool, simply because he puts it about more than DB.
Would Carrol have scored that chance yesterday ? Errr I dont think so! Have you not see Carrol's scoring record since he joined LFC and this season? If we had him, we would be in the bottom 3 for sure.
What makes you think we cant afford him?
You're right, Carrol probably wouldn't have scored that chance yesterday, he may have scored the first time though :D The other side of the coin is, would he have been caught offside 4 times?
Don't get me wrong, I like DB, but, when we signed him we had Young and Downing firing in quality for him, oh for that now. And I'm certainly glad we had him last season.
We haven't got that this season. He's a poacher, and a good one at that. He's not a player who'll get busy, and I just feel that quite a lot this season it's been like playing with 10 men.
Carrol is being played differently to how he was at Newcastle and I just think that he'd give more to the team.
I agree his scoring record at Liverpool hasn't been good, but he's quality and it will happen.
I don't understand this at all. Bent will score us goals, even this season his record is good, he isn't the problem, he's one of the few people who is doing the job he's in the team to do.
The major issue in the squad, as I've been saying for months, is our complete inability to retain possession. Our players are always looking for the ultra safe option, which invariably leads to the ball ending up at the feet of the keeper with the only option to punt it up field. When this then doesn't stick to Bent people start to call him a passenger. We need to spend a huge portion of our time in training working on pass and move, making triangles and giving the player on the ball options. Once this becomes second nature the difference on the pitch will be huge. If we start this now we'll know by the summer which players aren't capable of adapting to it and we can get rid of them and bring in replacements.
Paul, I'm not actually arguing with you, I agree with everything that you're saying about Bent. I've been waiting years for a true striker to come along.
All I'm saying, perhaps not well enough, is if we're going to keep him we've got to play his game and I don't think we do.
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What Paul_e said. Without Bent's goals we'll be down before we know what's hit us. You can't expect him to win long punts from the keeper, he just isn't that type of player. Gabby doesn't win them any better when he plays there. We pretend to pass it around but ultimately it almost always ends up back at the keeper for the hoof.
Plus we need a whole new defence, preferably players who can display signs of intelligent life, know how to stay on their feet and have some positional sense and ability to read the game. I'd certainly get Lichaj in asap to see what he can do, maybe Stevens too. As for Clark, good on the ball but I have a feeling he's just too slow to make it as either a top class CB or defensive midfielder.
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I think we need to drop Warnock, Collins & Hutton.
Stevens, Clark, Dunne & Herd/Lichaj surely can't be any worse?
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Bent is our main goal threat. Do people seriously want to drop him? Unbelievable.
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This whole selling / dropping Darren Bent makes me mad. People saying he doesnt run the channels etc etc. Are you tell me that Carrol would run the channels (im just using him as an example). Say if we get rid of Bent and get a striker who runs the channels, who will be in the box to bury the ball? errr no one so we will be back to square one and start slating the strike force and then the manager for selling a proven goal scorer. The problem is that we have never replaced Young and Downing with the equivalent skill set or better so of course Bent is going to be starved of service and goals but replacing him with another striker who will run a little bit more is not going to solve the problem now is it? We would be worse off. The problem lies with the midfield and defence in my opinion and that really needs to be addressed but looks like we have to wait until the summer for any of that to be done.
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This whole selling / dropping Darren Bent makes me mad. People saying he doesnt run the channels etc etc. Are you tell me that Carrol would run the channels (im just using him as an example). Say if we get rid of Bent and get a striker who runs the channels, who will be in the box to bury the ball? errr no one so we will be back to square one and start slating the strike force and then the manager for selling a proven goal scorer. The problem is that we have never replaced Young and Downing with the equivalent skill set or better so of course Bent is going to be starved of service and goals but replacing him with another striker who will run a little bit more is not going to solve the problem now is it? We would be worse off. The problem lies with the midfield and defence in my opinion and that really needs to be addressed but looks like we have to wait until the summer for any of that to be done.
Exactly.
It makes you wonder just what they do in training when you constantly see long, lofted balls aimed at Bent. He rarely has any hope of gaining any advantage from them and usually loses possession immediately. As much as I'm a fan of Bent, let's face it, he's not even up to Heskey's standard in those circumstances. It's just not his game. Play to your strengths is what we must do.
It's on a par with the midfield constantly bottling the forward pass and passing back to Given so that he can hoof it forward and lose possession.
How is it that no one at the club can see this?
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Bent is the least of our problems, hence John's original post about the state of our defence. That - and our central midfield - are top priorities to address.
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Bent is the least of our problems, hence John's original post about the state of our defence. That - and our central midfield - are top priorities to address.
Exactly! We need to sort out this leaky defence that really has no clue how to defend set pieces for a start and a midfield that lacks any leadership and creativity.