Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Drummond on December 13, 2011, 08:01:30 PM
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Twitter update 3 mins ago......
*Market
2+2=?
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Wouldn't surprise me.
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Maybe he's shopping and forgot to add the photo.
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He was just at the German market
Cuellar24 Carlos Cuellar
@Ollie_Upton yes i did the German Markect is nice
11 minutes ago
Cuellar24 Carlos Cuellar
*Market
10 minutes ago
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there's a lot of shit i'd like us to sell MON but Cuellar isn't one of them. He'll improve their defence leaps and bounds. Sadly with our board you can see us selling him for peanuts or more likely paying his wages so he can go on loan.
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He's out of contract end of the season, he's on big money and we never pick him. Even when we do, he gets played out of position. He's certain to be off this Summer. Like most Villa fans, I wish him all the best wherever he turns up*.
* unless it's Small Heath, Stoke, Leeds, Rangers, Crawley, Swindon, any of another 753 teams I hate...
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I would rather tempt MON with Collins to raise some cash and offer a new contract to Cuellar but I guess Mcleish does not rate him.
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I would rather tempt MON with Collins to raise some cash and offer a new contract to Cuellar but I guess Mcleish does not rate him.
why you guess that steve? strange how mcleish, o'neill, macdonald, houllier and macallister rated collins more.
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Fair point but which of those Managers has ever given him a decent run in the team, none of us will ever know how good or bad he would have been.
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He has played quite a few games at centre back. He was inconsistent
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Collins has played many games and is also inconsistent but for me has had a fairer crack of the whip than Cuellar, anyway looks like he might be off and if so I wish him well.
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Get rid, he's not goin to play so what's the point and he runs like a girl
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McLeish loves the two oil tankers at the back. Kickaball Carlos has kicked his last in a claret and blue shirt I fear.
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Me too Eamonn. I never thought I would see a sepecialist right back I would have rather had Cuellar in there for but Hutton has managed it! At centre back he is better than Collins by a mile, but I reckon Dunne and Collins fill the coaching staff' head with crap about how tight they are as a unit etc, and people are afraid to disrupt it.
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Needs to go unfortunately. Only made 78 appearances in 4 years. Cost us atleast £15m in transfer and wages and barely used by our last 3 [fulltime] managers. It's unfortunate cause I love Carlos but at 200k an appearance...the majority of which were out of his natural position it just makes little sense to keep him on.
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Everton, I reckon.
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Whoever he goes to are getting a very good centre half who never got a proper run in his right position.
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His best game was in the 3-1 win at Liverpool, alongside Curtis and with Beye at right-back. If that lot had played like that more often we'd have saved a fortune.
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His best game was in the 3-1 win at Liverpool, alongside Curtis and with Beye at right-back. If that lot had played like that more often we'd have saved a fortune.
If you look back in that season, he played very well at centre back alongside Dunne in the run up to Xmas.
I can see Sunderland signing him in January.
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I like Cuellar, but I think there is a case of his reputation growing the more he doesn't play. It's wrong to say he never got an extended run at centre back, he played plenty of games in the 2nd half of the season when Laursen got injured and our defence fell apart (08/09??).
It would be a shame to sell him though. As a back up centre half, which he is at the moment, we won;t find anyone as good to replace him. Also, I do agree that he should be given a chance ahead of Collins sooner rather than later, as he isn't playing well.
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I like Cuellar, but I think there is a case of his reputation growing the more he doesn't play. It's wrong to say he never got an extended run at centre back, he played plenty of games in the 2nd half of the season when Laursen got injured and our defence fell apart (08/09??).
It would be a shame to sell him though. As a back up centre half, which he is at the moment, we won;t find anyone as good to replace him. Also, I do agree that he should be given a chance ahead of Collins sooner rather than later, as he isn't playing well.
Him and Curtis Davies was never a good combination, no natural leader there, infact Curtis Davies and anyone is never a good combination.
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I like Cuellar, but I think there is a case of his reputation growing the more he doesn't play. It's wrong to say he never got an extended run at centre back, he played plenty of games in the 2nd half of the season when Laursen got injured and our defence fell apart (08/09??).
It would be a shame to sell him though. As a back up centre half, which he is at the moment, we won;t find anyone as good to replace him. Also, I do agree that he should be given a chance ahead of Collins sooner rather than later, as he isn't playing well.
Him and Curtis Davies was never a good combination, no natural leader there, infact Curtis Davies and anyone is never a good combination.
Curtis Davies and Martin Laursen were a great combination for the 1st half of that season.....mind you Paul McGrath and Phil Babb were once a great combination.
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Davies and Cuellar both wanted to be the player covering behind and not the one meeting the ball, hence they didn't work well as a pair. Play either with a Dunne or Laursen type and you get a better combination.
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mind you Paul McGrath and Phil Babb were once a great combination.
God next to anyone was a great combination.
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Whoever he goes to are getting a very good centre half who never got a proper run in his right position.
I would say a decent centre half rather than a very good one...
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I like Cuellar, but I think there is a case of his reputation growing the more he doesn't play. It's wrong to say he never got an extended run at centre back, he played plenty of games in the 2nd half of the season when Laursen got injured and our defence fell apart (08/09??).
It would be a shame to sell him though. As a back up centre half, which he is at the moment, we won;t find anyone as good to replace him. Also, I do agree that he should be given a chance ahead of Collins sooner rather than later, as he isn't playing well.
Him and Curtis Davies was never a good combination, no natural leader there, infact Curtis Davies and anyone is never a good combination.
Curtis Davies and Martin Laursen were a great combination for the 1st half of that season.....mind you Paul McGrath and Phil Babb were once a great combination.
We still conceded goals with those two, I think it was more the greatness of Laursen covering Davies's flaws (and also Zat Knight's). When Laursen wasn't around, Curtis got found out big time.
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His best game was in the 3-1 win at Liverpool, alongside Curtis and with Beye at right-back. If that lot had played like that more often we'd have saved a fortune.
For me his best game was against Man United and he kept Tevez in his pocket all game.
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I like Cuellar, but I think there is a case of his reputation growing the more he doesn't play. It's wrong to say he never got an extended run at centre back, he played plenty of games in the 2nd half of the season when Laursen got injured and our defence fell apart (08/09??).
It would be a shame to sell him though. As a back up centre half, which he is at the moment, we won;t find anyone as good to replace him. Also, I do agree that he should be given a chance ahead of Collins sooner rather than later, as he isn't playing well.
big time. he was fairly hopeless in his first season at the club 08/09. He was a daft signing anyway with no thought behind it. Laursen was top dog and Davies was his partner. Knight as back up. Why was Cuellar bought?
Also begs the question why Dunne and Collins were bought? Definitely a need for one of them but with Cuellar and Davies still at the club there wasnt a need for both of them. Especially with Clark coming through. MON short term thinking in action.
Cuellar had some good games, Wolves away last season. Seem to recall him playing well against Liverpool and Man Utd a few times. But he isnt any better than Collins on the ball and liable to lunging in like Collins too at times. Collins is better at the physical stuff and blocking shots where Cuellar can be good at reading situations. I think to be honest considering he is 2 years older, it makes sense to move him on.
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I reckon we should keep him.
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Also begs the question why Dunne and Collins were bought? Definitely a need for one of them but with Cuellar and Davies still at the club there wasnt a need for both of them. Especially with Clark coming through. MON short term thinking in action.
it certainly is. I just mentioned this elsewhere, but where's the long term thinking in this:
2008-9: Davies (9m), Friedel (2.5m), Luke Young (5m), Shorey (4m), Cuellar (8m) = almost 30m on defenders (which ignores the purchase of Knight the year before)
2009-10: Beye (2.5m), Warnock (7m), Collins (5m), Dunne (5m) = another almost 20m on defenders.
That's nigh on 50m on the defence in two seasons.
And we don't even have much of a defence to show for it.
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Shorey was forced on us at short notice by the Bouma injury but he turned out to be a wanker, remodelling the centre of defence by the Laursen injury.
I think you'll find that most clubs have more than 4 defenders.
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I think you'll find that whilst most clubs have more than four defenders, they don't spend quite that much money on them, and in the space of two years.
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£7.8M seemed to me at the time as an awful lot of money for a back-up central defender, and that is how it has turned out. Whilst I don't have a problem with Carlos, MON certainly had the habit of overpaying for mediocre players. It seems as though the culture of the club was for MON to decide (eventually) who he wanted, and then they just got the deal done. Inevitably we didn't achieve much in the way of value, and this has become gradually more apparent over time. A similar one is Harewood, who was just expensively enlarging the squad without tangibly improving its quality. This culture is brought into relief by how clubs like Milan shop around for free transfers.
Also, as unrealistic as it sounds, Carlos was talking about hoping to improve his national team prospects with the move.
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2008-9: Davies (9m), Friedel (2.5m), Luke Young (5m), Shorey (4m), Cuellar (8m) = almost 30m on defenders (which ignores the purchase of Knight the year before)
2009-10: Beye (2.5m), Warnock (7m), Collins (5m), Dunne (5m) = another almost 20m on defenders.
That's nigh on 50m on the defence in two seasons.
And we don't even have much of a defence to show for it.
Well, three of those players still make up 3/4s of our present defence.
The total is £43m. As I mentioned on another thread, we lost Mellberg, Laursen & Bouma for nothing, so if you presume their replacements were Cuellar, Dunne and Shorey, that means £17m was essential maintenance and the remaining £26m was what we spent to improve to be a top 6 side. And we've re-couped about £10 from Shorey, Young and Davies going.
I'll be honest and say I think the signings of Beye and Collins were unnecessary, so we could have been where were for less, plus the wages we put them on were too high.
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Not sure about your sums there, John.
Shorey was sold for £1m, Davies £1.75m with potential add-on of £750k and Luke Young to QPR was undisclosed. Not sure how you got to £10m.
Also Paulie's figures add up to £48m not £43m.
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We signed Shorey after Bouma's injury but in typical MON short sighted style, he thought he was too slow and didn't really fancy him when he bought him. Of course there may have been better options on the continent but woe betide us looking there.
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Yep, Shorey was a total panic buy and in any case wasn't needed due to us playing Carlos at RB and Young at LB. The summer 2008 Habib Beye.
I think Carlos was signed partly because he was so outstanding in Rangers's run to the europa final so given we were in that competition a logical signing. I even remember Gregnash was advocating his signing on here.
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Not sure about your sums there, John.
Shorey was sold for £1m, Davies £1.75m with potential add-on of £750k and Luke Young to QPR was undisclosed. Not sure how you got to £10m.
Also Paulie's figures add up to £48m not £43m.
Yep - I'll blame that on a calculator mishap, but it is indeed a total of £48m.
I'd have to check back, but I thought we got more for Shorey and Davies than that. I was thinking about £2m for one and £3m for the other?
Either way, the point still stand that a large chunk was essential and we still have the players that comprised a great defence (Carlos, Dunne, Collins & Warnock), so it's wrong to just quote the figures as it if was 100% money thrown away.