Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: villadelph on September 26, 2011, 02:20:18 AM
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Is the 4-5-1 our ideal formation? One would think that it's the system we've been running for some time now, but why not try to adopt something else in hope of a more effective shape? We've got Wigan on the weekend and I don't think there is any better time to take some risks.
Our deep \/-shaped midfield gives little support to the strikeforce, even with our "creative" players like Bannan and Ireland getting forward through the center of the park. Could there be unforeseen benefits in the 4-4-2? Having two strikers being able to combine and work together could stabilize our final third possession. Moreover, with two strikers, the first 15 minutes of the match, in which we usually sit back and take a pounding, could see a change. James Collins moon-shots would have a better chance of finding a forward, ultimately then having a forward run off the first with a flick.
We don't find possession in the final third until the 60 minute mark when opposing legs start to lose their flair. We need to utilize our offense as a defensive measure. Bent's prowess and Gabby's pace could really work wonders. While most believe it is impossible for Bent to have a partner, I don't see him getting service from anyone else.. and Gabby for that matter who had little coming in from the wings today. But by pairing them they could surely work out a couple of combinations and find a new way forward.
Could we handle a 4-4-2 defensively? It would be difficult, and who to pick in the middle of the park..? Would Bannan and Petrov get run over, would Gabby track back enough to hold whatever edge we do have in the center midfield, could Jenas have any role to play in a new formation?
There are a lot of questions that need to be answered on this matter but something needs to change. McLeish was obviously unhappy with today's performance, along with the rest of us, but we just keep juggling pieces in the same 5-4-1 with very little positives to come away with. If it doesn't work, we could always fall back.
Hutton Dunne Collins Warnock
Bannan Petrov/Jenas?/Delph N'Zogbia
Gabby Bent
Just a thought. Different formations and suggestions welcome.
Up the villa, VTID.
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Is the 4-5-1 our ideal formation?
No. Next question?
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Is the 4-5-1 our ideal formation?
No. Next question?
Literally.. Could there be unforeseen benefits in the 4-4-2?
Figuratively, I'd like you to elaborate on your first point.
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When are people going to wake up to the fact we don't have two central midfielders good enough to play 4-4-2? Yesterdays 4-2-3-1 in the second half was much better and suits the players we have. Ultimately though the formation is irrelevant if the players dont put the effort in like yesterdays first half.
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I don't think a discussion about the formation is the most relevant one. Yesterday, in the second half, Ireland (!) and Bannan was showing some glimpses of good passing and creativity, and we were actually creating some chances. We weren't playing like Barcelona, but it wasn't that bad considering that we were playing away against a competitive side.
The biggest problem is that our central midfield pairing doesn't work at all, and I'm starting to doubt that it ever will. Petrov does, for whatever reason, not see himself as a sitting midfielder anymore, and Delph lack the discipline (yet) to be one. That meant that our central midfield was at times nonexistant when the opponents attacked. Not good. We almost got away with it against QPR. If we do the same thing when we play someone good, we'll be slaughtered.
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I still like Bobby Robson's sweeper system.
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When are people going to wake up to the fact we don't have two central midfielders good enough to play 4-4-2? Yesterdays 4-2-3-1 in the second half was much better and suits the players we have. Ultimately though the formation is irrelevant if the players dont put the effort in like yesterdays first half.
I would take this a step further. We lack structure in midfield whatever formation we play IMO. Players appear confused re their roles, while also being positionally poor. Take Delph for example. First half he and Petrov were we think the deeper sitting pair, and much of the time they were forced deep through the centre halves hoofing and giving the ball away as we have not got a focal point without the big man. However, Delph was continuously having the ball played in behind him, so positionally something was a bit out. Then second half he kept marauding down the left hand side. All a bit odd for me. Petrov seems to also want to get forward more, but even in a 4-5-1 we look exposed, so tactically I don't thing the midfield men in that are doing what they should be.
Ireland though, for me, showed promise, enough that would make me tempted to start him and wee Barry together with Petrov in the centre and drop Delph for Bent coming back next week. Attacking wise I reckon we would be a lot more dangerous.
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As an aside, where is Kieran Clark? Injured? He wasn't on the sub's bench, and clearly deserves a chance in central midfield if fit. If not, throw in Gardner. I doubt he'll do worse than Delph.
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If McLeish is set on the lone striker, then Gabby fits the role better than Bent in my opinion, in terms of the overall team structure. Bent doesn't work hard enough not contribute enough outside the box. That is the real dilemna for the manager.
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We played 442 against Necastle, that should have been enough to convince everyone that it doesn't suit us. I think we need to wait to see what impact Jenas has when he's fit, he's a different player to anything we currently have.
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Is the 4-5-1 our ideal formation?
No. Next question?
Could you be wrong? Yes. Next question? Why? Because when played the right way, as we began to in the second half, a team can be attacking playing 4-5-1 (see Man Utd).
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The tweaks to the offside rule has according to some football boffin increased the active playing area by some 15m or so. As the midfielders are the ones that have been most affected by this I think a 442 (or a flat one at least) will always struggle unless the players are unfeasibly fit or exceptionally talented.
Personally I like the 4231 but it does mean the 3 are potentially in no man's land between the midfield and attack i.e. doing nothing well. A 433 arguably has more defined roles and could avoid the situation where Petrov starts roaming and the likes of Nzogbia fail to support the striker.
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If we could play like we did in the second half of yesterdays game in every game I would like us to play that way.
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Is the 4-5-1 our ideal formation?
No. Next question?
Could you be wrong? Yes. Next question? Why? Because when played the right way, as we began to in the second half, a team can be attacking playing 4-5-1 (see Man Utd).
If wouldn't take my answer seriously, if I were you.
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The biggest problem is that our central midfield pairing doesn't work at all, and I'm starting to doubt that it ever will. Petrov does, for whatever reason, not see himself as a sitting midfielder anymore, and Delph lack the discipline (yet) to be one. That meant that our central midfield was at times nonexistant when the opponents attacked. Not good.
I mentioned this last week after the Newcastle game, Petrov thinks he's a young Frank Lampard and after his wonder strike at Everton it's only confirmed it in his mind. Delph needs some babysitting and Petrov should be the one sitting back, building and directing play. Delph has been left far too exposed by Petrov's walkabouts, so it's hardly a surprise people are questioning his ability.
Key for me if players bringing the ball forward, both Dunne and Collins can do it, as should Petrov. It reduces the space between the midfield and attack, plus with players like Bannan and Ireland who can spot a pass, we should be able to start creating more chances for the strikers, something that is a major concern and reflected in our poor total of shots on target.
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Personally I think we're having problems in an attacking sense due to this new found obsession of playing wide players on their weaker foot.This wasn't such a bad thing when we had Downing and Young as both could use their weaker foot pretty effectively.As it is we have players cutting back inside and running into traffic.None moreso than yesterday when we were up against a 5 man midfield.Both Gabby and Bent are more potent when we have players hitting the byline and cutting the ball back.Simple, basic footballing ideals of playing players in their best positions, rather than an issue of technical formations.
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As far as I'm concerned a 4-2-3-1 is just a staggered 4-5-1 and up until this point has very little success. I'm just trying to raise the point that we should try something new against Wigan, whether its a 4-4-2 or not.
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Is the 4-5-1 our ideal formation?
No. Next question?
We've played 4-5-1 since MON took over and it works pretty well with the right players. You have to have 2 quality midfield wingers for it to work effectively, though.
We haven't got that at the moment so the loan striker is, literally, on his own.
If we only use one midfield/winger then that's what he has to do, be a winger. Albrighton and, more so, N'Zogbia cut in far to much, they should both attack the fullback and get those crosses in for Bent and Gabby.
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Would playing Warnock in midfield give us some much needed bite whilst also taking away some of his liability as a full back.
Wasn't he Blackburn's player of the year in that role?
don't know who to play at Left back though
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The rules today, that have all but outlawed tackling, preclude the need for the old fashioned physical midfield player. What you need is players with the energy and stamina to harry opponents, close them down quickly and hurry them into giving the ball away. The sort of thing Darren Fletcher does so well for Manu.
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And Karl Henry for Wolves, although he loves a tackle too! Is also what Milner did so well for us.
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The rules today, that have all but outlawed tackling, preclude the need for the old fashioned physical midfield player. What you need is players with the energy and stamina to harry opponents, close them down quickly and hurry them into giving the ball away. The sort of thing Darren Fletcher does so well for Manu.
We had 4 trying to do that in the first half against QPR and not that well too
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The rules today, that have all but outlawed tackling, preclude the need for the old fashioned physical midfield player. What you need is players with the energy and stamina to harry opponents, close them down quickly and hurry them into giving the ball away. The sort of thing Darren Fletcher does so well for Manu.
I don't think athleticism is our issue. Delph is athletic, just had a rough day on the ball yesterday. We don't have an offense worth defending. Teams realize that if they high pressure us we immediately fall back, and are willing to do so. We will sit on our heels all day.
I'm tired of waiting 60 minutes for attacking football. While other teams use the first 15 minutes to absolutely bombard us, we waste it away. We have no offensive threat. If we forced teams to defend us, via the 4-4-2 I think results would begin to change in our favor.
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This would be my team and formation against Wigan.
Given
Hutton Collins Dunne Warnock
Petrov Jenas
Agbonlahor Ireland Bannan
Bent
Subs : Guzan Herd Clarke Delph Albrighton N'Zogbia Delfouneso
I would swap Hutton for Herd if he has another stinker ( Scottish Cafu, pffffffftttt )
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Would playing Warnock in midfield give us some much needed bite whilst also taking away some of his liability as a full back.
Wasn't he Blackburn's player of the year in that role?
don't know who to play at Left back though
Clarke??
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I'd play a 4-3-3.
I'd have Clark anchoring in midfield then Jenas and Petrov/Delph either side of him.
As for the front 3, I'd go for Gabby and Bent. The other wide position I'd go with Bannan to play free. Gabby's played the wide role pretty well this season and offered width, whilst managing to get in the box effectively too. There'd be a risk of being narrow, but I think we'd be more solid in midfield, whilst our fullbacks are better going forward than they are at the back. I want to see us attack more, because Warnock and Hutton are frightening in defence. Thankfully Given, Dunney and on the whole, Collins have held firm this season.
If it doesn't work out for Bannan there, then I'd try Ireland. Or of course if we need to open the pitch out a bit, I'd get N'Zogbia to play as an out and out winger, or Albrighton.
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If there's one thing this thread highlights is the dilemma facing McLeish. Based on current form he has to play Gabby, Bent our star striker must also be included. How much longer he continues with N'Zogbia I've no idea but if he doesn't vastly improve against Wigan, then a time on the bench is awaiting.
Midfield is our major problem; is it Delph's fault Stan goes walk about leaving him exposed, then we have young Barry and Ireland, two gifted players that appear to be on the same wavelength. Can we play them both? I'd like to think so, especially at Villa Park where hopefully we'd be spending most of our time attacking and trying to supply Bent.
Thinking about it, bollocks, drop N'Zogbia, he really hasn't done enough to warrant a place and go 4-3-1-2 with Petrov Delph and Bannan (Stan and Delph holding), Bannan box to box and give Ireland a free role behind the strikers but make sure he puts a bloody shift in.
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It's all very well playing the right players even in the right system, but if we so clearly have an endemic issue with our football philosophy there's no point. We had a damn talented attacking midfield trio yesterday, and none of them got any of the ball in the first half because the ball would constantly go sailing over their heads from the defence and the goalkeeper. We need to make an effort to start playing from the back properly - the centre backs not just fleeing from the keeper when he gets the ball, for instance - or there's no point in playing any combination of midfielders really.
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It's all very well playing the right players even in the right system, but if we so clearly have an endemic issue with our football philosophy there's no point. We had a damn talented attacking midfield trio yesterday, and none of them got any of the ball in the first half because the ball would constantly go sailing over their heads from the defence and the goalkeeper. We need to make an effort to start playing from the back properly - the centre backs not just fleeing from the keeper when he gets the ball, for instance - or there's no point in playing any combination of midfielders really.
An excellent point, one that I tried to address in the original post. Surely with two forwards atop the Collins clearance we've become accustomed to would more likely land in our favor.. no?
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Which is why Bannan would probably see more ball playing deeper with the defence told to give it to him to playmake, a little like Xavi, but obviously not on that level. Heskey in the side helps us retain the ball too, which is a bit of a dilemma.
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Which is why Bannan would probably see more ball playing deeper with the defence told to give it to him to playmake, a little like Xavi, but obviously not on that level. Heskey in the side helps us retain the ball too, which is a bit of a dilemma.
I agree with you in terms of Heskey. He's like a backwards compliment to our side, and has attributes that can help us control the ball and actually retain possession. But Bannan deep kind of scares me, in front of the back four I'd be nervous of his defensive prowess. Though, I hope he can evolve into our medium as far as possession from the back to front.
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We played 442 against Necastle, that should have been enough to convince everyone that it doesn't suit us. I think we need to wait to see what impact Jenas has when he's fit, he's a different player to anything we currently have.
I agree we dont have the players to play 4-4-2. Maybe Jenas is the missink link, its worth a go.. What was interesting yesterday Delph and Petrov sat deep and waited for thier midfielders to come forward. I guess this is tactical
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We played 442 against Necastle, that should have been enough to convince everyone that it doesn't suit us. I think we need to wait to see what impact Jenas has when he's fit, he's a different player to anything we currently have.
I agree we dont have the players to play 4-4-2. Maybe Jenas is the missink link, its worth a go.. What was interesting yesterday Delph and Petrov sat deep and waited for thier midfielders to come forward. I guess this is tactical
They may have done, but Delph was caught wrong side a number of times first half. Positionally to be deep lying you don't actually have to be great in the tackle if you can position yourself in the right place. Delph is young and lacks the knowledge or discipline at the moment in there for me. Sometimes a young player has that, but it is rare.
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Out of the three strikers we have possibly Heskey is the most adept at holding the ball up and that says a lot.
It just seems to ping off Bent most of the time and Gabby's not that much better
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Whatever we play, we need three midfielders, either in a flat three (Jenas-Petrov-Delph could work) or a triangle, which would be my preference; I'd choose between a more defensive shape (Clark at the base, with two - Jenas and Delph - further forward) or a more attacking one, with Jenas and Delph slightly behind a playmaker at the point (Bannan). Whenever Bannan plays, he absolutely has to be in a central role where he can be fed the ball and link play. Not in a wide role, right or left.
Can't see us using 4-4-2 anymore. We have the ideal players for 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1 or 4-5-1, we just haven't found the right mix yet.
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Granted it was Wigan, but we've seemed to stumble upon something that works. I'm interested to see how we come out against citeh.
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Granted it was Wigan, but we've seemed to stumble upon something that works. I'm interested to see how we come out against citeh.
What was the formation Villadelph?
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Granted it was Wigan, but we've seemed to stumble upon something that works. I'm interested to see how we come out against citeh.
What was the formation villadelph?
It was shown pre-game as a 4-3-3, but obviously it wasn't that simple. It kind of looked like there was a diamond in the midfield at times, but our pressure up front was great. Bent, Gabby and Ireland all getting forward, with Delph, Petrov and Bannan sitting behind them. Bannan was a genius today.
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We can forget about Jenas for the next four weeks, he's done his achilles according to AM.
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I think that we don't play 4-5-1 but, more properly, 4-2-3-1 as the two CM play behind the line formed by the wingers and Barry Bannan.
So said, as our style of play is effective but quite boring, I'd try to return to the good old 4-4-2 with one attacking CM, one defensive, two wingers, and two strikers.
For instance:
Given
Herd - Clarke - great question mark - Warnock
Albrighton - Petrov (Delph) - Bannan - N'Zogbia
Bent - Agbonlahor
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I think that we don't play 4-5-1 but, more properly, 4-2-3-1 as the two CM play behind the line formed by the wingers and Barry Bannan.
So said, as our style of play is effective but quite boring, I'd try to return to the good old 4-4-2 with one attacking CM, one defensive, two wingers, and two strikers.
For instance:
Given
Herd - Clarke - great question mark - Warnock
Albrighton - Petrov (Delph) - Bannan - N'Zogbia
Bent - Agbonlahor
It'd be exciting, I'll give you that.
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I like the current set up. It's probably the only way we can accommodate Ireland, Bannan and two strikers in the same team without ending up being too powder puff.
The changes I'd think about making are more related to personnel. I'd think about bringing someone in for Hutton at right back (I'd think about Beye as I think Herd might deserve a run out in midfield) and someone into midfield (probably Herd) to take Delph out of the firing line.
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Today was only Wigan, we all knew a win was on the cards, I had us down for more that 2 TBH, I still think we lack horribly in the midfield area's, the thing is we play our first real test next, what must be deemed a quality side, today was brilliant and enjoyable because i thought it would be a forgone conclusion, thought at times we made hard work of it, next will be Man City and they have more than enough to keep Gabby quiet, its then we will see how cohesive our playing style and formation really is.
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Today was only Wigan, we all knew a win was on the cards, I had us down for more that 2 TBH, I still think we lack horribly in the midfield area's, the thing is we play our first real test next, what must be deemed a quality side, today was brilliant and enjoyable because i thought it would be a forgone conclusion, thought at times we made hard work of it, next will be Man City and they have more than enough to keep Gabby quiet, its then we will see how cohesive our playing style and formation really is.
Today was very narrow.
Fair play to AM, he's seen us get overrun through the midfield by the likes of Newcastle so he stuck four in the middle and did without wingers. And it worked to a point although there were still too many long balls punted from the back.
However, try that formation against a decent side and they will absolutely destroy us down the flanks. There were quite a few times today Hutton was left with two because he didn't have a winger in front of him, which was fine because Wigan were crap. Give Man City that luxury and it could be a cricket score.
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I think that we don't play 4-5-1 but, more properly, 4-2-3-1 as the two CM play behind the line formed by the wingers and Barry Bannan.
So said, as our style of play is effective but quite boring, I'd try to return to the good old 4-4-2 with one attacking CM, one defensive, two wingers, and two strikers.
For instance:
Given
Herd - Clarke - great question mark - Warnock
Albrighton - Petrov (Delph) - Bannan - N'Zogbia
Bent - Agbonlahor
Archie, regarding the "great question mark", how about Richard Dunne?
(runs to the hills)
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Granted it was Wigan, but we've seemed to stumble upon something that works. I'm interested to see how we come out against citeh.
What was the formation Villadelph?
At times, it looked like a hybrid version of "Wembley", "Spud" and "What's the time Dr Wolf?". Still, we won so I think Alex should pursue this strategy. I do think he might want to bring in a bit of Kiss-chase" if we start scoring more than one goal per game on a regular basis.
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I can't see us playing the same diamond v citeh. We need more protection against city's nimble attacking midfielders, and I'd be worried their full backs would have too much space.
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Diamonds aren't forever.
Tactical flexibility is the order of the day. Whatever criticisms may be levelled at McLeish he does at least try and mix it up a bit.
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Diamonds aren't forever.
Tactical flexibility is the order of the day. Whatever criticisms may be levelled at McLeish he does at least try and mix it up a bit.
agreed. You'd think after the rigidity of the Mon era people would be jumping for joy at someone trying a few different ways of playing!
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well it looks like it's 451 against Citeh with EH being the defending striker
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I personally dont see any value in setting up too defensively against Man City. If we sit back they'll murder us.
May as well go for it I say. Not recklessly but purposefully.
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I would keep the same team at city, as maz says no point sitting back and hoping for a draw , might be tempted to swap clark for delph but otherwise id like to see the same team and formation as against wigan, gabby is on form and ireland will be up for the game so we might as well have a go at them-i expect nothing either way to be honest but they are too good to just sit back and try and defend against.
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I'd like to see Bannan more central.
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I think formation should be defined by the players. If you're starting 11 has 5 midfielders then it's 4-5-1, but should you have two strikers that can't play anywhere else, then 4-4-2 it is. We saw a midfield diamond on Saturday not because AM wanted to try it, or at least not mainly, but because the players in form that he wanted to pick suited that formation best.
So, if you want to look for our best formation, look at our best 11. The keeper and flat back 4 pretty much pick themselves, as do Bent and Gabby, wheteher the latter be wide or up top. I also think Bannan's form makes him an automatic choice right now. And lastly Petrov, as captain and the nearest thing we have to a DCM, will start.
So you start with our usual defence and Given behind them and Petrov infront. Bent up top and then Bannan and Gabby somewhere in the midfield/forward area. That leaves two places and I think Jenas hasn't come not to play, plus he'd add some experience and strength to the central midfield area, so he slots in alongside Petrov. That last player is therefore from the options of Heskey, Delph, Ireland, N'Zogbia or Albrighton. I think ideally you'd want N'Zogbia in form and playing - again we didn't pay £10m not to play him.
So if that's the best 11, then foramtion wise it strongly leans towards 4-3-3 for me. Gabby and N'Zog wide of Bent and Bannan as the furthest forward of a 3 man midfield:-
Given
Hutton
Dunne
Collins
Warnock
Petrov
Jenas
Bannan
Gabby
N'Zogbia
Bent
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Good post John but N'Zogbia has to earn his place and if the player in front of him cost us nowt but is doing the business, tough tittays!
Obviously though N'Zogbia has a lot of ability so once he does settle in and finds his form he will be a fixture you'd imagine.
I'd like to think McLeish will mix and match his line up to suit though rather than just pick an in-form XI. Yes that has to happen to a degree as it would be demotivating to drop a player doing well for somebody not doing so well just because they play in a natural position that is needed at that moment. However, it is a squad game and players wont get form back unless they're trusted.
When all players are fit McLeish has more options than we might think. I'd like to see him be canny and creative with them.
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Fair play to McLeish for having the balls to drop N'Zogbia on Saturday.It's early days but for whatever reason he hasn't done the business yet for us.For McLeish to leave out his biggest signing in favour of Bannan sends a message out to the whole squad that no one can get too comfortable.
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Cuellar Dunne Collins Warnock
Albrighton Petrov N'Zogbia
Irenland Gabby
Bent
FROM NOW ON.