Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: ozzjim on August 04, 2011, 07:26:19 PM
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Ok, we are talking about this on various topics on the board, but I have done some rudimentary maths, and even an excel spreadsheet. However, I cannot for the life of me get our current squad to more than a cost of 45-50million in wages over a season, a full 30 million off what they were last season. That is even including guestimated costs of Eck and the Eck crew. So - the question I have - how much are they really being paid? I have estimated at a fair few of them on 50-65k a week. I just don't get how the 90 million turnover being made up of 80 million wages is calculated, and I would like someone to explain it to me. The context is that there is no more money to spend on an even more paper thin squad than we had last season and the season before, having moved on a number of the high wage earners and making a small fortune in profits on transfers. What is going on? 2 more players would be approximately 4-5 million on the bill, not unreasonable after what we have shed. From being seemingly supportive of managers, the Generals statement on appointment that McLeish will be supported seems to have been frankly as valuable as the paper it was written on and the side/ squad has some serious question marks. I have not been worried by many of the events this summer, but with a week to go before kick off and us quite categorically saying no more in unless players leave, what the hell are we really paying them?
Anyhow - I have asked enough questions to kick it off - any other ideas, questions, thoughts most welcome!!! Anyone with answers even better.
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I don't know mate. But I have been told by a friend who is a former lawyer that footballers tend to be paid a lot more than you'd read from their stated wages, once you take into account goal bonuses and the like. I mean a LOT more.
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It's a good topic for discussion. I know a mistake that has often been made in the past is making sure the player additions/departures are for the correct set of figures. From memory the accounts your likely to be looking will not be for last season, but actually the season before.
Have you looked on the Swiss Ramble website? This guy does excellent financial analysise of football clubs. Not sure whether he's done one for villa based on the latest set of figures.
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We've got to have cleared a huge chunk off the bill. Nrc, carew, friedel, young, downing, pires.
I think its a case of randy just doesn't want to put up big money which as you say is a piss take considering the general said mcleish would be backed
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We were told that we had to cut the wage bill. We've done that, presumably to around the level that they want it to be. If they go out and buy more players without selling then it will increase again.
If, for example, we can move on Beye and Cuellar then their wages will be available for new signings.
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don't the total wages include everybody at the club, youth team, office staff, stewards and the tea lady....
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We were told that we had to cut the wage bill. We've done that, presumably to around the level that they want it to be. If they go out and buy more players without selling then it will increase again.
If, for example, we can move on Beye and Cuellar then their wages will be available for new signings.
Do you think though Chris? The balance of the squad is all awry at the moment, and if this is the level, then Eck still needs funds to wheel and deal. Maybe next summer when Beye, Heskey and Luke Young go there will be more scope.
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What is the optimal figure for wages to turnover? Isn't it about 60-70%?
We have to be a decent amount below that.
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Even with bonuses I can't see the squad and coaching team much beyong 55 million now. Rest of the club another million or so? At which point if turnover remained 90 million would put us at 60% ish. Plus a decent transfer profit.
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We were told that we had to cut the wage bill. We've done that, presumably to around the level that they want it to be. If they go out and buy more players without selling then it will increase again.
If, for example, we can move on Beye and Cuellar then their wages will be available for new signings.
Do you think though Chris? The balance of the squad is all awry at the moment, and if this is the level, then Eck still needs funds to wheel and deal. Maybe next summer when Beye, Heskey and Luke Young go there will be more scope.
Yes, I agree, Ozz, from a purely football point of view we need more bodies but it looks like we might have to make do and hope that he can can the best out of what he's got. The problem we, as fans, have is that we're told that we need to do something about the wage bill but we don't know what the acceptable level is. I can understand why they don't want to make that public but it means that we can never be sure whether or not there's more to come.
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I then think that the public statement from the General saying that they would back the manager transfer wise has been a farcical one. I agree, not knowing is difficult as you cannot quantify what has gone and what we expect to still go, but to lose the players we have without actually choosing replacements bar 1, being NZogbia for Downing is harsh. Ireland is not a replacement for Jimmy, we never replaced Barry, and Ash is yet to be replaced. 4 England internationals in their prime gone, only 1 replaced and the club saying they will back the new manager. He is a sitting duck at the moment.
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I then think that the public statement from the General saying that they would back the manager transfer wise has been a farcical one.
I looked at his thread on VT today and was surprised. There were a few mentals screaming and shouting, but there was a decent amount of pretty well argued criticism (not something I'd associate with VillaSquawk).
One of the things that kept on getting mentioned was the fact that the General said (paraphrasing here) "When has Randy not backed his manager", "imagine what AM can do with a supportive chairman like Randy" and "you'll see in the next two weeks how we mean business" (two months ago).
I'm sure he does it with good intentions, but I wonder if he's actually so removed from what goes on at the club these days that he's not really aware of the whole situation re finances?
If this is the case, it is unfair of them to expect him to come out with stuff like that in an attempt to pacify people, because those are the sort of statements that come back and bite you on your arse, and that's what they're doing at the moment.
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I do feel a bit for AM, he's not going to get the honeymoon period most new managers get and is not exactly being backed (so far).
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I then think that the public statement from the General saying that they would back the manager transfer wise has been a farcical one.
I looked at his thread on VT today and was surprised. There were a few mentals screaming and shouting, but there was a decent amount of pretty well argued criticism (not something I'd associate with VillaSquawk).
One of the things that kept on getting mentioned was the fact that the General said (paraphrasing here) "When has Randy not backed his manager", "imagine what AM can do with a supportive chairman like Randy" and "you'll see in the next two weeks how we mean business" (two months ago).
I'm sure he does it with good intentions, but I wonder if he's actually so removed from what goes on at the club these days that he's not really aware of the whole situation re finances?
If this is the case, it is unfair of them to expect him to come out with stuff like that in an attempt to pacify people, because those are the sort of statements that come back and bite you on your arse, and that's what they're doing at the moment.
And has he responded, or buried his head in the nearest tank and taken fire?
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I was expecting them to bring the wages down to pre-MON loads of unplaying reserves level but i'm not sure thats the case anymore. it could well be a DOL type wages bill = not that he didn't have quite a few really well paid average players.
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Does anyone know how ST sales are going? Could a noticeable drop make a difference to what they are prepared to outlay each week?
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I do feel a bit for AM, he's not going to get the honeymoon period most new managers get and is not exactly being backed (so far).
Nobody forced him to come here, I'm pretty sure AM knew the restrictions regarding the resources available, isn't that how we ended up with him, every other manager didn't fancy it. AM took the job on, knowing the stick he would get and knowing he would have to sell first. Even whisky nose Ferguson knew what AM was coming into.
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Anyhow - I have asked enough questions to kick it off - any other ideas, questions, thoughts most welcome!!! Anyone with answers even better.
I did a rough tally up by putting all the kids on £10k or £20k a week and all the senior players on £40k or £60k a week. It came to just over £40m per year.
That would put us alongside the likes of Fulham and Blackburn.
Would you fancy putting up your list of player/wages to see if people agree with your figures?
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Anyhow - I have asked enough questions to kick it off - any other ideas, questions, thoughts most welcome!!! Anyone with answers even better.
I did a rough tally up by putting all the kids on £10k or £20k a week and all the senior players on £40k or £60k a week. It came to just over £40m per year.
That would put us alongside the likes of Fulham and Blackburn.
Would you fancy putting up your list of player/wages to see if people agree with your figures?
i can't imagine many of the kids are on 20k! Could be wrong but i'd say allbrighton is the only one in that bracket.
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Anyone who mentions Spurs in this one gets shot.
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Would you fancy putting up your list of player/wages to see if people agree with your figures?
Haha! Poor Villazawg (née 'dawg')...I can imagine you cowering as you typed that.
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Factor in the new sponsorship deal as well and the wages> turnover ratio should be a lot healthier now.
I don't want to go the Slumberland route and say Big Eck is playing a blinder on this, but after Carson and his cronies made noises about £20, no maybe £30 or maybe even £40 million available for new players, he probably knows the value of keeping schtum.
Lessons learned the hard way, and all that.
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I then think that the public statement from the General saying that they would back the manager transfer wise has been a farcical one. I agree, not knowing is difficult as you cannot quantify what has gone and what we expect to still go, but to lose the players we have without actually choosing replacements bar 1, being NZogbia for Downing is harsh. Ireland is not a replacement for Jimmy, we never replaced Barry, and Ash is yet to be replaced. 4 England internationals in their prime gone, only 1 replaced and the club saying they will back the new manager. He is a sitting duck at the moment.
In fairness I think Downing and Delph - two left-footers, a winger and a midfielder, one quite proven, one with bags of potential were ''replacements'' for Barry.
Of Milner, Young and Downing you could say N'Zogbia is in for one of Ash or Downing.
Ireland obviously came as part of the Milner deal. Two very different players. And very different attitudes more to the point. But Makoun also came in during January so you could argue that Ireland and Makoun motivated more than compensate for Milner.
That leaves one of Downing or Young which the club would argue that this has been partly covered by the emergence of the likes of Albrighton and the fact that a new manager with a different way of playing means like for like replacements aren't as necessary/valid....cost-cutting of course but I wouldn't say there's no reasoning in it and ultimately it's what we're going to have to get used to due to Randy's hawkeye on the wage-bill going forward.
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We've got to have cleared a huge chunk off the bill. Nrc, carew, friedel, young, downing, pires.
I think its a case of randy just doesn't want to put up big money which as you say is a piss take considering the general said mcleish would be backed
blah blah blah boring!! Get off Randy's case! He wants the best for the club!
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Maybe it's McLeish who wants time to properly assess the squad. As has been mentioned on numerous occasions there are a lot of "ifs" within the squad that could not really be promoted/dumped until they've been tested under something like competitive conditions. The no more signings line (largely peddled by Kendrick) could be a smoke screen to get a good deal on other signings. Let's face it, villa under randy have hardly ever courted publicity to get a cheap headline.
At least that is what I hope. But ultimately it's Randy's money and if he cannot afford it there is little we can do.
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i think in comparison to spurs -ohhhhhhhhhh sorry dave please dont shoot.
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It was reported that AM said in the 'fans meeting' he needed a keeper but would wait until he assessed the squad before strengthening. That sounded sensible then and still does.
He's had an opportunity to have a look and after Derby said we need to strengthen.
If there is no money, then why is there all this talk about discussions with or about Parker and Barton?
I think Randy has been asserting himself to get wages under control. He has mainly achieved that, but probably still wants to get rid of Cuellar and Beye.
Having reduced the size of the squad and achieved a significant reduction in the wage bill, why would he change from his long term approach?
I think we will buy, but if Randy hangs tough, not until Beye and Cuellar have gone.
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It was reported that AM said in the 'fans meeting' he needed a keeper but would wait until he assessed the squad before strengthening. That sounded sensible then and still does.
He's had an opportunity to have a look and after Derby said we need to strengthen.
If there is no money, then why is there all this talk about discussions with or about Parker and Barton?
I think Randy has been asserting himself to get wages under control. He has mainly achieved that, but probably still wants to get rid of Cuellar and Beye.
Having reduced the size of the squad and achieved a significant reduction in the wage bill, why would he change from his long term approach?
I think we will buy, but if Randy hangs tough, not until Beye and Cuellar have gone.
why would he change from his long term approach?
probably has something to do with the fact that the financial crisis has reaped havoc in the last 2 years or so and randys finances have probably taken a battering -far different times no than when randy took over.
Five years ago the top 4 was achievable but now it is out of reach without enormous cash investment, i suppose randy thinks why spend £40m or so to try and finish 6th rather than 8th and get an extre £2m in prize money.
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The problem at Villa is we are paying alot of average footballers huge amounts, we simply cannot afford to add more wages, however I don't believe that should stop us strengthening, I honestly think next year is when we'll see the best of our club, we'll clear alot of the deadwood, this season may be similar to MON's first, work with what you have, then the likes of Heskey, Young, Petrov, Cuellar, Beye will all hopefully leave that's potentially 250k a week there in wages, then use scouting to find us better players, like would Nathanial Clyne have been any worse than Beye? He would have been 20k cheaper. That's why I would steer clear of Parker and Barton.
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as a previous employer nothing bothered me more than seeing me paying for someone sat around doing nothing
they either did something or they left.
I suppose Randy Lerner is just taking the same view of his expensive bench as I did of my managers appointments.
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as a previous employer nothing bothered me more than seeing me paying for someone sat around doing nothing
they either did something or they left.
I suppose Randy Lerner is just taking the same view of his expensive bench as I did of my managers appointments.
possibly the case but randy sanctioned those wages so must take some of the blame himself for giving mon carte blanche.
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Interesting piece on BBC website about players without clubs.
PFA say there are 338 players without clubs. Agent Barry Silkman says internationals like Hitzleberger and Upson highlight situation and a lot of players are going to have to accept whats on offer and face a shock. There's not a lot of money out there he says.
NRC certainly miscalculated and had a shock. Bet he loves it at Bolton.
This window seems different to previous ones.
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well I set the wage margins too and then reset them to take account of managers massaging the figures to make their case. They said the new staff would improve things so I agreed with their expertise until I actually found that too many lead to everyone leaving it to everyone else to do stuff and consequently things went downhill.
Some of the worst culprits were the established staff too, not all but some thought it was their chance for an easy ride.
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I know that something is fundamentally wrong with football when a noname like Rubbish Savage says that with his last paypacket he is going out to buy a Lamborghini
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I cannot for the life of me get our current squad to more than a cost of 45-50million in wages over a season, a full 30 million off what they were last season ... I have estimated at a fair few of them on 50-65k a week. I just don't get how the 90 million turnover being made up of 80 million wages is calculated, and I would like someone to explain it to me.
I haven't seen your spreadsheet, Ozz, but isn't the difference between your numbers and those published in the last set of accounts simply the income tax / NI that the club pays on behalf of the players? We see weekly earnings as a net figure but I know in 'normal' businesses accounts report salaries and wages as gross; can't see why it would be different for football clubs.
£50m (your figure) + c.11% (NI) + 40% (tax) = c.£75-78m. Since we've lost 4 big earners and several smaller earners since the figures were published, this makes up the difference.
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If that group of clubs with aspirations to Europe, including us have to trim their wage bills to fit EUFAs Fair Play Rules, that will effectt other clubs lower down the food chain. It might not be cash that the problem.
To coin a phrase, 'Its the wages stupid'. Players be frightened.
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I cannot for the life of me get our current squad to more than a cost of 45-50million in wages over a season, a full 30 million off what they were last season ... I have estimated at a fair few of them on 50-65k a week. I just don't get how the 90 million turnover being made up of 80 million wages is calculated, and I would like someone to explain it to me.
I haven't seen your spreadsheet, Ozz, but isn't the difference between your numbers and those published in the last set of accounts simply the income tax / NI that the club pays on behalf of the players? We see weekly earnings as a net figure but I know in 'normal' businesses accounts report salaries and wages as gross; can't see why it would be different for football clubs.
£50m (your figure) + c.11% (NI) + 40% (tax) = c.£75-78m. Since we've lost 4 big earners and several smaller earners since the figures were published, this makes up the difference.
How should the club pay the tax bill for the players?
Employers NIC is payable so should be included but not the tax that's an individual liability admittedly paid through the PAYE but should not be included in the accounts.
Its a bit like the argument that some Tax Dodgers were using to say how much tax they were paying by including the tax paid by their employees as part of THEIR contribution.
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I do feel a bit for AM, he's not going to get the honeymoon period most new managers get and is not exactly being backed (so far).
Nobody forced him to come here, I'm pretty sure AM knew the restrictions regarding the resources available, isn't that how we ended up with him, every other manager didn't fancy it. AM took the job on, knowing the stick he would get and knowing he would have to sell first. Even whisky nose Ferguson knew what AM was coming into.
Agree entirely with that
AM came because he doubled his wages and would have been sacked by Small heath before Christmas.
Personally I think AM was bought in purely as a fall guy
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How should the club pay the tax bill for the players?
Employers NIC is payable so should be included but not the tax that's an individual liability admittedly paid through the PAYE but should not be included in the accounts.
Its a bit like the argument that some Tax Dodgers were using to say how much tax they were paying by including the tax paid by their employees as part of THEIR contribution.
I was simply making the point that the weekly wages figures quoted by the media are net of tax and NIC, so in trying to reconcile the club's total wage bill with the individuals now left on the payroll it is important to add back those deductions to get the full gross amount reported in the statutory accounts.
I wasn't suggesting any malpractice or anything like that.
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I then think that the public statement from the General saying that they would back the manager transfer wise has been a farcical one. I agree, not knowing is difficult as you cannot quantify what has gone and what we expect to still go, but to lose the players we have without actually choosing replacements bar 1, being NZogbia for Downing is harsh. Ireland is not a replacement for Jimmy, we never replaced Barry, and Ash is yet to be replaced. 4 England internationals in their prime gone, only 1 replaced and the club saying they will back the new manager. He is a sitting duck at the moment.
In fairness I think Downing and Delph - two left-footers, a winger and a midfielder, one quite proven, one with bags of potential were ''replacements'' for Barry.
Of Milner, Young and Downing you could say N'Zogbia is in for one of Ash or Downing.
Ireland obviously came as part of the Milner deal. Two very different players. And very different attitudes more to the point. But Makoun also came in during January so you could argue that Ireland and Makoun motivated more than compensate for Milner.
That leaves one of Downing or Young which the club would argue that this has been partly covered by the emergence of the likes of Albrighton and the fact that a new manager with a different way of playing means like for like replacements aren't as necessary/valid....cost-cutting of course but I wouldn't say there's no reasoning in it and ultimately it's what we're going to have to get used to due to Randy's hawkeye on the wage-bill going forward.
But then you could also argue that Makoun (or Ireland) is a replacement for Sidwell.
And what about the replacements for NRC and Walker.
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To coin a phrase, 'Its the wages stupid'. Players be frightened.
I don't think the players will be "frightened", but we may well have seen a peak in the weekly/monthly amounts being paid. With players wages declining. This probably explains why the 2 players we have just signed are both on 5 year deals, it is probably that their weekly/monthly take home is less than previously expected, but because of the guaranteed 5 years worth of income, they are still banking the same amount but earned over 5 years instead of 3 or 4.
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The problem at Villa is we are paying alot of average footballers huge amounts, we simply cannot afford to add more wages, however I don't believe that should stop us strengthening, I honestly think next year is when we'll see the best of our club, we'll clear alot of the deadwood, this season may be similar to MON's first, work with what you have, then the likes of Heskey, Young, Petrov, Cuellar, Beye will all hopefully leave that's potentially 250k a week there in wages, then use scouting to find us better players, like would Nathanial Clyne have been any worse than Beye? He would have been 20k cheaper. That's why I would steer clear of Parker and Barton.
I think every Prem club are paying average footballers in their squads huge amounts - we are not unique
Who have Spurs bought? Yet they will lose a huge player for them and probably be followed by the other names as they get frustrated at not having CL football
I think this close season has been the lowest for player activity and as usual its really only the top predator clubs that have bought for top end players
For all our gnashing - imagine being a poor Everton fan
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To coin a phrase, 'Its the wages stupid'. Players be frightened.
I don't think the players will be "frightened", but we may well have seen a peak in the weekly/monthly amounts being paid. With players wages declining. This probably explains why the 2 players we have just signed are both on 5 year deals, it is probably that their weekly/monthly take home is less than previously expected, but because of the guaranteed 5 years worth of income, they are still banking the same amount but earned over 5 years instead of 3 or 4.
It's a two way thing. The player has a guaranteed income for 5 years. Villa have potentially better resale income after 2, 3, or even 4 years service, and don't get hit with such high costs if the player is consigned to the reserves.
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I'd even say Houllier was released due to him wanting to make wholesale changes to the squad which would have proved very costly.
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How should the club pay the tax bill for the players?
Employers NIC is payable so should be included but not the tax that's an individual liability admittedly paid through the PAYE but should not be included in the accounts.
Its a bit like the argument that some Tax Dodgers were using to say how much tax they were paying by including the tax paid by their employees as part of THEIR contribution.
I was simply making the point that the weekly wages figures quoted by the media are net of tax and NIC,
How do you know that? I always assumed it was gross. If you're telling me that Habib Beye is on about £75k a week gross I think I'm going to need a stiff drink.
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The problem at Villa is we are paying alot of average footballers huge amounts, we simply cannot afford to add more wages, however I don't believe that should stop us strengthening, I honestly think next year is when we'll see the best of our club, we'll clear alot of the deadwood, this season may be similar to MON's first, work with what you have, then the likes of Heskey, Young, Petrov, Cuellar, Beye will all hopefully leave that's potentially 250k a week there in wages, then use scouting to find us better players, like would Nathanial Clyne have been any worse than Beye? He would have been 20k cheaper. That's why I would steer clear of Parker and Barton.
I think every Prem club are paying average footballers in their squads huge amounts - we are not unique
Who have Spurs bought? Yet they will lose a huge player for them and probably be followed by the other names as they get frustrated at not having CL football
I think this close season has been the lowest for player activity and as usual its really only the top predator clubs that have bought for top end players
For all our gnashing - imagine being a poor Everton fan
I agree entirely Hookey. I know there's an overall malaise on here, but outside of an initial burst of activity from Man U, Liverpool and Sunderland, there's really nothing else going on in the market outside of the odd deal here and there. There's a lot of players unsigned because either the majority of the clubs have taken a different approach to fees and wages as we have as it relates to FFP, or there are players still living in the clouds with wages demands that may have been fine two years ago, but are no longer in the real world. And I haven't even mentioned inflated transfer fees and agent fees yet.
I know we've lost a lot of players, but most of them were utterly useless. Most clubs haven't been able to sign players, and whether those managers have been as vocal as ours has, outside of a couple of clubs, everyone appears to be in the same boat. I think the market will only open up properly in the last week to 10 days when players and selling clubs realize their bluff has been called and they are forced into deals they would not have accepted a few weeks prior. What I hope we are seeing is the emergence of a new financial environment. My biggest concern is that the CL revenue being as lucrative as it is will make the revenue divide between the haves and have nots even wider than it is now.
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Likewise.. Eamonn...join me in a nice little cyprus sherry and you'll be helping the Eurozone
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I then think that the public statement from the General saying that they would back the manager transfer wise has been a farcical one. I agree, not knowing is difficult as you cannot quantify what has gone and what we expect to still go, but to lose the players we have without actually choosing replacements bar 1, being NZogbia for Downing is harsh. Ireland is not a replacement for Jimmy, we never replaced Barry, and Ash is yet to be replaced. 4 England internationals in their prime gone, only 1 replaced and the club saying they will back the new manager. He is a sitting duck at the moment.
In fairness I think Downing and Delph - two left-footers, a winger and a midfielder, one quite proven, one with bags of potential were ''replacements'' for Barry.
Of Milner, Young and Downing you could say N'Zogbia is in for one of Ash or Downing.
Ireland obviously came as part of the Milner deal. Two very different players. And very different attitudes more to the point. But Makoun also came in during January so you could argue that Ireland and Makoun motivated more than compensate for Milner.
That leaves one of Downing or Young which the club would argue that this has been partly covered by the emergence of the likes of Albrighton and the fact that a new manager with a different way of playing means like for like replacements aren't as necessary/valid....cost-cutting of course but I wouldn't say there's no reasoning in it and ultimately it's what we're going to have to get used to due to Randy's hawkeye on the wage-bill going forward.
But then you could also argue that Makoun (or Ireland) is a replacement for Sidwell.
And what about the replacements for NRC and Walker.
Yeah but replacing Milner and replacing Milner and Sidwell amounts to the same thing ;)
Obviously for all his weaknesses there is now an NRC-shaped hole in the squad.
As for Walker, when he arrived Warnock had been ostracized and Luke Young was one month into a three month absence through injury. They will both start the season as our regular full-backs you'd imagine.
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Only the very rich or the stupid ones buy early
Wait until the 10 day sale comes along!
oohh wasn't that the way a certain manager used to buy and didn't that end up with us buying a load of crap with stupid warranties....mmm
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yes let other teams pay their wages for pre-season training and get them fit and we will buy them when the season is ready to begin and save on wages. wishful thinking sadly.
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yes let other teams pay their wages for pre-season training and get them fit and we will buy them when the season is ready to begin and save on wages. wishful thinking sadly.
unless a player is a free agent, don't you think all players playing for another team are working out and playing in friendlies already? Why should players signed late in the window be unprepared fitness wise to play immediately.
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Don't forget the costly pre season tours
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yes let other teams pay their wages for pre-season training and get them fit and we will buy them when the season is ready to begin and save on wages. wishful thinking sadly.
unless a player is a free agent, don't you think all players playing for another team are working out and playing in friendlies already? Why should players signed late in the window be unprepared fitness wise to play immediately.
The point im making is that signing players late in the window saves paying their wages for pre-season and for a player on £65000 a week that could save half a million in wages buying him in august rather than june.
The wishful thinking comment was meant in that i wish were signing players.
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Factor in the new sponsorship deal as well and the wages> turnover ratio should be a lot healthier now.
I don't want to go the Slumberland route and say Big Eck is playing a blinder on this, but after Carson and his cronies made noises about £20, no maybe £30 or maybe even £40 million available for new players, he probably knows the value of keeping schtum.
Lessons learned the hard way, and all that.
But....but....but... they did spend £40m net on transfer fees in his last two seasons and also brought in several highly paid loanees
Transfer Markt - Clicky (http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/birmingham-city/transferbilanz/verein_337.html)
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yes let other teams pay their wages for pre-season training and get them fit and we will buy them when the season is ready to begin and save on wages. wishful thinking sadly.
unless a player is a free agent, don't you think all players playing for another team are working out and playing in friendlies already? Why should players signed late in the window be unprepared fitness wise to play immediately.
N'Zogbia wasn't, he was on holiday in NY and Dubai.
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yes let other teams pay their wages for pre-season training and get them fit and we will buy them when the season is ready to begin and save on wages. wishful thinking sadly.
unless a player is a free agent, don't you think all players playing for another team are working out and playing in friendlies already? Why should players signed late in the window be unprepared fitness wise to play immediately.
N'Zogbia wasn't, he was on holiday in NY and Dubai.
it wouldn't have mattered then when we signed him. He had a scheduled holiday. It's not like had we signed him back in June he'd have come back earlier. He was apparently given extra time off due to his international commitments with France. There's still players on holiday now that played in Copa America.
Most players are back in pre-season training with their current clubs at around the same time, and to think signing a player late has a bearing on fitness levels isn't really true. Would it help to have them in early to meet their team mates and go on pre-season tours etc? It's not a bad thing but even that's overblown in my opinion. Darren Bent had never played with us when he joined in January and spent the rest of the season performing like he had played with us for 5 years.
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Anyone who mentions Spurs in this one gets shot.
Can I be first.....
As a rough guide we now have 14 senior professional of first team quality, and another 13 squad / youngsters who are probably on between 5-20k per week.
Heskey 65,000
Beye 40,000
L Young 40,000
Warnock 50,000
Dunne 60,000
Collins 30,000
Bent 65,000
Ireland 65,000
Gabby 45,000
Given 50,000
Cuellar 35,000
Makoun 35,000
N'Zogbia 65,000
Petrov 50,000
Total per week = £695k
Per Year = £36 million
If you add in the squad / youngsters wages probably adds another £10 million per year max.
A guess at squad bonuses etc a further £10 million. We are looking at wages of circa £56 million per year.
Our revenue in 09/10 was circa £90 million, which will have decreased last season based on performance in all competitions, to say circa £80 million.
We are as an estimate spending 70% of our turnover on wages.
This is probably already at a level which is unsustainable.
IMO.... Heskey, Beye, Ireland, Dunne, Collins, Warnock, Young, Petrov are all being paid an extremely high wage for the performances they have put in last season, and the majority of them are either close to 30 or over 30. The squad itself needs to move these players through during the next few seasons, to rebalance the ratios.
We cannot keep blaming old Martin for all the ills within the squad, the board sanctioned the contracts and wages for these players, and we are now paying the price. In comparative terms for our turnover we are spending enough on wages to be a top 6-7 club. The trouble for me is the spending over the last four - five years bar a few exceptions has not been done so wisely.
Randy appears to have decided (too fast in my opinion) to pull the plug and wait for the contracts to run down on the players who have been brought in on high wages. This is a risky strategy given the fact we were for most of last season in a relegation battle, however he holds the purse strings and decides the direction of the club.
Interesting that neither Everton or Spurs our supposed competition are yet to spend any money either. Seems only Man City, Man United and Liverpool have any money to spend.
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If sell to buy is a truism, then under these new FFP guidelines no club outside of a select few is going to significantly add salaries without selling assets first. Liverpool have not only spent a lot, but added a lot in wages to what was already a big squad. They have a significant sponsorship deal, but have a stadium that doesn't add significant commercial value. They're not in the CL or Europa either. They've basically gone all in on this season to qualify for the CL. If they don't they're going to be hard pushed to continue this level of spending and to balance their spending against revenues. They really haven't sold many players either. I think they've put immense faith in Dalglish and it might work out, but cracking the top 4 isn't easy.
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Oh and won't I smile and have a little chuckle to myself when I see the part that the spineless lion might play in that
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Anyone who mentions Spurs in this one gets shot.
Can I be first.....
As a rough guide we now have 14 senior professional of first team quality, and another 13 squad / youngsters who are probably on between 5-20k per week.
Heskey 65,000
Beye 40,000
L Young 40,000
Warnock 50,000
Dunne 60,000
Collins 30,000
Bent 65,000
Ireland 65,000
Gabby 45,000
Given 50,000
Cuellar 35,000
Makoun 35,000
N'Zogbia 65,000
Petrov 50,000
Total per week = £695k
Per Year = £36 million
If you add in the squad / youngsters wages probably adds another £10 million per year max.
A guess at squad bonuses etc a further £10 million. We are looking at wages of circa £56 million per year.
Our revenue in 09/10 was circa £90 million, which will have decreased last season based on performance in all competitions, to say circa £80 million.
We are as an estimate spending 70% of our turnover on wages.
This is probably already at a level which is unsustainable.
IMO.... Heskey, Beye, Ireland, Dunne, Collins, Warnock, Young, Petrov are all being paid an extremely high wage for the performances they have put in last season, and the majority of them are either close to 30 or over 30. The squad itself needs to move these players through during the next few seasons, to rebalance the ratios.
We cannot keep blaming old Martin for all the ills within the squad, the board sanctioned the contracts and wages for these players, and we are now paying the price. In comparative terms for our turnover we are spending enough on wages to be a top 6-7 club. The trouble for me is the spending over the last four - five years bar a few exceptions has not been done so wisely.
Randy appears to have decided (too fast in my opinion) to pull the plug and wait for the contracts to run down on the players who have been brought in on high wages. This is a risky strategy given the fact we were for most of last season in a relegation battle, however he holds the purse strings and decides the direction of the club.
Interesting that neither Everton or Spurs our supposed competition are yet to spend any money either. Seems only Man City, Man United and Liverpool have any money to spend.
I wouldn't argue with your wages figures. What I would say is that the bonus £10m is a pretty arbitrary figure and only gets paid on success and subsequent earning of corresponding prize money. At this point there is also the additional £25mish profit from transfer fees.
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I thought this is quite a good article to add to this debate about a club in similar stature to ourselves facing much of the same issues and frustrations that we are.
Six years after flirting with elite, Everton are still pining
Tonight's visitors to Goodison bring a bitter reminder that the promised land has grown more remote each year
By Simon Hart
Friday, 5 August 2011
Thoughts of what might have been will enter Evertonian minds when Villarreal visit Goodison Park for the Merseysiders' final pre-season friendly tonight.
It was against the Spanish club in 2005 that Everton fell one step short of the Champions League group stage, in a qualifier remembered for Pierluigi Collina's mystifying decision to rule out a potentially pivotal Duncan Ferguson goal.
After a 2-1 home defeat, Everton thought they had restored parity at El Madrigal when, after Mikel Arteta's free-kick had made it 1-1 on the night, Ferguson powered home a header from a corner. Instead Collina whistled for a perceived infringement by Marcus Bent on Gonzalo Rodriguez, when TV cameras showed the pair merely jostling for position.
Villarreal, who salted the wound with a second goal at the death, reached the semi-finals; Everton, despite twice surpassing the points total that earned them fourth place in the Premier League in 2004-05, have not got closer to modern football's promised land since.
Mick Rathbone, part of David Moyes' Goodison inner sanctum for eight years as Everton's head of science, recalls the "amazing damp squib" that followed the feat of finishing fourth. Arteta had warned that Villarreal were the team to avoid, and so it proved. "When Villarreal came out, there was a kind of deathly silence – it was a draw we didn't want. [Moyes] really felt that was the chance to move Everton on and become that top-four team," says Rathbone, adding that disappointment melded with anger once they reviewed Collina's decision and "realised that was a blatant mistake".
As the 10th full season of Moyes' reign approaches, a more pertinent question than "what if?" is "what next?" for a club who won the last of their nine league titles 25 years ago next May. A section of Everton's support has become increasingly active in voicing its frustrations with owner Bill Kenwright and his board over their failure to find the necessary investment to back Moyes in the transfer market even modestly.
Everton's debt is an estimated £45m and, according to the chief executive, Robert Elstone, in a blog on the club website, "the squeeze on money is harder than ever". The contrast with their close neighbours could not be more striking. While the Liverpool manager, Kenny Dalglish, has recruited £100m worth of new players in 2011, Moyes, whose side have finished one place behind their rivals for three of the last four seasons, has spent no more than £2m combined in the past three windows and must again sell before he can buy.
Kenwright's critics also point to the failed ground moves to Kings Dock and Kirkby; the fact Goodison Park has remained essentially untouched for 17 years means it generates roughly one-fifth of the income Old Trafford does on a match day. This week a coalition of protest groups called the Blue Union and comprising Keep Everton In Our City (which campaigned against Kirkby), Evertonians for Change, The People's Group and School of Science 1878, issued a press release complaining about "stagnation" and a "lack of transparency".
Keep Everton In Our City member Dave Kelly says: "It is sad Evertonians have become accustomed and accept it as the norm that we have to sell to buy. Do we only aspire to finish seventh or do we attempt to kick on?"
Even the defender Sylvain Distin, responding on Twitter to fans' queries about Moyes' reported interest in the Aston Villa-bound Charles N'Zogbia, suggested: "[It] seems like we can't afford no one [sic] at the moment."
It is a far cry from last summer, when a rare outbreak of pre-season optimism followed the strong finish to 2009-10 – two defeats in 24 Premier League games – and Moyes' success in keeping his squad intact. Even Sir Alex Ferguson echoed Moyes' belief that a Champions League push was not beyond Everton, yet a poor start and lack of a reliable striker cost them. Moyes still needs that forward and had hoped to raise money by selling Yakubu and Joseph Yobo; the question now is whether he sacrifices a key asset like Phil Jagielka to fund moves, or relies on the loan market.
Despite the constraints, Rathbone says it is wrong to assume it is all doom and gloom at Everton's Finch Farm HQ. A highlight of his highly entertaining and insightful autobiography, The Smell of Football, is his insight into Moyes' working methods, and he says: "The idea that he has been sitting there bashing his head against the wall is wrong."
Each pre-season Moyes "paid attention to small things to make things a bit fresher and more stimulating", adds Rathbone, who also worked with him at Preston. "The summer before last he started putting the satnav vests on one or two players to make sure we saw what they were doing in training. It doesn't cost the same as a £20m player but is a little tap on the shoulder for everybody – 'We're going forward, boys'."
Everton's academy also ensures some "evolution" and the promising pre-season showings of 17-year-old midfielder Ross Barkley, now recovered from a broken leg suffered on England Under-19 duty, provide one source of hope.
The club's straitened circumstances, Rathbone declares, also guarantee a formidable team spirit and it is telling that neither of their highly rated England defenders, the Arsenal target Jagielka and Leighton Baines, appears in any rush to leave. "The tightness of the squad and the tightness of the people who work there make it, I would suggest, quite a unique situation in modern-day Premier League football."
This backs-to-the-wall quality will be essential if Moyes is ever to fulfil the wish he reiterated before his 400th game last December to "lift one of those silver things" with a club once known as the Mersey Millionaires.
Moyes' moves in the market
Transfers so far this summer:
In Eric Dier (loan from Sporting Lisbon)
Out James Vaughan (£2m, Norwich City)
Summer 2010
In Jermaine Beckford (free), Jan Mucha (free), Magaye Gueye (£900,000), Joao Silva (undisclosed).
Main sale None
2010-11 finish 54pts, 7th position
Summer 2009
In Diniyar Bilyaletdinov (£9m), Sylvain Distin (£5m), John Heitinga (£6m), Lucas Neill (free), Jo (loan), [plus youngsters Cody Arnoux (undisclosed) and Shkodran Mustafi (free plus Fifa training compensation)].
Main sale Joleon Lescott for £22m
2009-10 finish 61pts, 8th position
Summer 2008
In Marouane Fellaini (£15m), Louis Saha (undisclosed), Carlos Nash (free), Lars Jacobsen (free), Segundo Castillo (loan).
Main sale Andrew Johnson for £10m
2008-09 finish 63pts, 5th position; FA Cup finalists
Moyes' six best buys:
Tim Cahill £2m, Millwall, 2004
Mikel Arteta £2.2m, Real Sociedad, 2005
Phil Jagielka £4m, Sheffield United, 2007
Steven Pienaar £2.05m, Borussia Dortmund, 2008
Seamus Coleman £60k, Sligo Rovers, 2009
Landon Donovan loan, LA Galaxy, 2010
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A lot of tightness talked about there....perhaps we should get used to this austerity budget...after all we're in this together
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Minor amount in the greater scheme if things but you also need to add the wages of the manager and his team plus the support staff, secretaries etc etc.
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Good last point but the manager is probably on 2-3m a year plus his staff on another 1 million. Even if Villa then employ another 100 people on an average of £30k a year (including Faulkener and the like) thats only 3m - so maybe 7-8m tops for all the non-playing staff wages.
I think the previous point made that the figures quoted in the media may not include tax and NI could be right - but if it is that means say Darren Bent on £65k a week AFTER tax equates to him costing the club approx £150k a week after 50% income tax and employers and employees NI totalling approx a further 25%. If true that means he costs us £8m a year.
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Good last point but the manager is probably on 2-3m a year plus his staff on another 1 million. Even if Villa then employ another 100 people on an average of £30k a year (including Faulkener and the like) thats only 3m - so maybe 7-8m tops for all the non-playing staff wages.
I think the previous point made that the figures quoted in the media may not include tax and NI could be right - but if it is that means say Darren Bent on £65k a week AFTER tax equates to him costing the club approx £150k a week after 50% income tax and employers and employees NI totalling approx a further 25%. If true that means he costs us £8m a year.
When you earn Darren Bent-sized wages paying tax is optional.
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I wonder what the Everton fans made of this part in particular:
"The summer before last he started putting the satnav vests on one or two players to make sure we saw what they were doing in training. It doesn't cost the same as a £20m player but is a little tap on the shoulder for everybody – 'We're going forward, boys."
Reassuring, eh?
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that Moyes buy list just shows what you can do on a limited budget really. Arteta, Cahill and Jakielka for the same we paid for Davies *facepalm*
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that Moyes buy list just shows what you can do on a limited budget really. Arteta, Cahill and Jakielka for the same we paid for Davies *facepalm*
Yakubu - £14.5m
Andy Johnson - £9.6m
Bilywhodyanickabollockov - £8.8m
Andy Van Der Meyde - £7.9m
James Beattie - £7.9m
You're right, Moyes is fantastic with his "limited" budget.
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that Moyes buy list just shows what you can do on a limited budget really. Arteta, Cahill and Jakielka for the same we paid for Davies *facepalm*
Yakubu - £14.5m
Andy Johnson - £9.6m
Bilywhodyanickabollockov - £8.8m
Andy Van Der Meyde - £7.9m
James Beattie - £7.9m
You're right, Moyes is fantastic with his "limited" budget.
well he made a profit on johnson. I don't know where you're getting these fee's but according to wiki Beattie cost 6m and was sold for 4m. de meyde cost 2m. hardly MON type losses. yakubu cost 11.25m and was the first everton striker since Beardsley to get 20 goals a season and was doing pretty good until he ruptured his achilles. Bilyaletdinov has managed 50 appearances in 2 season so not a write off yet i'd say. Anyway all managers makes transfers mistakes. its the scale of them that counts. that little lot would be more than covered by just Lescott's sale
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So you're forgiving Moyes for his transfer mistakes, but didn't mind sticking the knife in with MoN for his transfer mistakes?
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As i said Moyes transfer mistakes were less frequent and covered by his transfer successes., you can afford to drop the occassional bollock if you can pick up Cahil, Jagielka and arteta for 8m and sell rooney and Lescott for 47m
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As i said Moyes transfer mistakes were less frequent and covered by his transfer successes., you can afford to drop the occassional bollock if you can pick up Cahil, Jagielka and arteta for 8m and sell rooney and Lescott for 47m
How about selling Milner and Downing for £46m?
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Moyes is somewhat overrated. He has made transfer mistakes like anyone else, but not as frequently and costly as MON. The biggest reason that Everton has plateaued is lack of resources, but it's also because Moyes isn't the kind of genius he's sometimes portrayed as. Apart from little money to spend, he's enjoyed continuity and stability at Everton -- he has worked under quite benign circumstances compared to many PL managers.
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As i said Moyes transfer mistakes were less frequent and covered by his transfer successes., you can afford to drop the occassional bollock if you can pick up Cahil, Jagielka and arteta for 8m and sell rooney and Lescott for 47m
How about selling Milner and Downing for £46m?
ah but they were't cheap in the first place were they? 22m roughly? compare that with rooney and lescott. 5m? and all the others like Jagielka who arsenal are rumoured to be interested in for 15-17m
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Moyes was lucky with Rooney, as in inheriting him. Had Rooney been coming through the Villa system and MoN sold him for £28m or however much it was you'd be saying that.
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Moyes was lucky with Rooney, as in inheriting him. Had Rooney been coming through the Villa system and MoN sold him for £28m or however much it was you'd be saying that.
Moyes brought him through and played him. We'd have been in a similar position currently if MON could have seen the quality of Cahill instead of preferring the frankly bobbins Davies.
Anyway i don't see how you can question the fact that Moyes can pick up players dead cheap and then sell them for vast sums. Who did MON buy in the 2-4m mark that we sold for a fortune or could sell? Actually did he ever buy anyone that cheap? Salifou?
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Moyes is somewhat overrated. He has made transfer mistakes like anyone else, but not as frequently and costly as MON. The biggest reason that Everton has plateaued is lack of resources, but it's also because Moyes isn't the kind of genius he's sometimes portrayed as. Apart from little money to spend, he's enjoyed continuity and stability at Everton -- he has worked under quite benign circumstances compared to many PL managers.
I agree with that which is why I wasn't as keen on him being our new manager. That said I didn't foresee what was going to happen there. Despite a lot of talk about the limited resources he has still been able to make the odd big buy like Fellani. It is only really in the last two seasons where the tap has been turned off though I suppose that the earlier big signings were funded by the departure of valuable players.
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Watched the Charity Match with a redscum supporter who was bleating on about the need for a salary cap to bring things more equal. ManSheiky is starting to get them really rattled methinks
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Good last point but the manager is probably on 2-3m a year plus his staff on another 1 million. Even if Villa then employ another 100 people on an average of £30k a year (including Faulkener and the like) thats only 3m - so maybe 7-8m tops for all the non-playing staff wages.
I think the previous point made that the figures quoted in the media may not include tax and NI could be right - but if it is that means say Darren Bent on £65k a week AFTER tax equates to him costing the club approx £150k a week after 50% income tax and employers and employees NI totalling approx a further 25%. If true that means he costs us £8m a year.
When you earn Darren Bent-sized wages paying tax is optional.
It's not, apparently footballers are actually paid PAYE.
It kind of seems wrong. A payslip like you or I would get, except with pretax pay of 250,000 on it. Mind boggling.
Worth remember also the employers NI contributions the club makes on these salaries, 11 percent (Risso will tell me if I'm wrong). So a player on 50k a week isn't costing 50k a week, it's more like 55 and a bit.
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Saw this article yesterday.
Blackburn Rovers are trying to sell a handful of players in a secret list that reveals the salaries of Steve Kean’s unwanted men.
The Indian owners Venkys are looking to slash £125,000-a-week from the payroll in a purge of the dressing room they inherited when they took over.
Mirror Sport has a copy of the sales brochure from Indian negotiator Krish Naidoo who has advised foreign agents and clubs to contact him.
The no-holds-barred document lists the salaries of the Rovers men, their appearance bonuses, signing-on fees, increases they are due and percentages to former clubs
It is an attempt to hurry up exits to help bring in cash for new faces in a major turn-around after a slow summer of movement at Ewood Park.
Keith Andrews is on £21,000-a-week and an extra £2,000 for every game. His wages also increase every time he plays five Premier League games – and an annual extra payment of £26,667.
MK Dons, who sold the Republic of Ireland international, are also entitled to 10 per cent of any profit over his purchase price of £1million.
Vince Grella is on a cool £30,000-a-week with a further £6,000 a game. Blackburn are asking for a £500,000 loan fee if he goes – and all of his salary paid.
El Hadji Diouf – told he is unwanted by Kean – is also on £30,000 a week and a further £5,000 per game. West Ham would like to take him on loan but the demand is for his pay to be made in full to Rovers.
Even Nikola Kalinic is on the list. He is about to join Dnipro and is on the flat rate of £30,000 a week.
Some mediocre players on good money there.
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/transfer-news/Blackburn-Rovers-reveal-salaries-of-El-Hadji-Diouf-Vince-Grella-and-Keith-Andrews-in-secret-list-to-hurry-exits-article782861.html?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed
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Saw this article yesterday.
Blackburn Rovers are trying to sell a handful of players in a secret list that reveals the salaries of Steve Kean’s unwanted men.
The Indian owners Venkys are looking to slash £125,000-a-week from the payroll in a purge of the dressing room they inherited when they took over.
Mirror Sport has a copy of the sales brochure from Indian negotiator Krish Naidoo who has advised foreign agents and clubs to contact him.
The no-holds-barred document lists the salaries of the Rovers men, their appearance bonuses, signing-on fees, increases they are due and percentages to former clubs
It is an attempt to hurry up exits to help bring in cash for new faces in a major turn-around after a slow summer of movement at Ewood Park.
Keith Andrews is on £21,000-a-week and an extra £2,000 for every game. His wages also increase every time he plays five Premier League games – and an annual extra payment of £26,667.
MK Dons, who sold the Republic of Ireland international, are also entitled to 10 per cent of any profit over his purchase price of £1million.
Vince Grella is on a cool £30,000-a-week with a further £6,000 a game. Blackburn are asking for a £500,000 loan fee if he goes – and all of his salary paid.
El Hadji Diouf – told he is unwanted by Kean – is also on £30,000 a week and a further £5,000 per game. West Ham would like to take him on loan but the demand is for his pay to be made in full to Rovers.
Even Nikola Kalinic is on the list. He is about to join Dnipro and is on the flat rate of £30,000 a week.
Some mediocre players on good money there.
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/transfer-news/Blackburn-Rovers-reveal-salaries-of-El-Hadji-Diouf-Vince-Grella-and-Keith-Andrews-in-secret-list-to-hurry-exits-article782861.html?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed
Quite possible the biggest understatement I've ever seen!
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Over the past few years every club has paid over the odds for mediocrity. Why? Because other clubs were doing it, so in order to get or keep a Steve Sidwell, a Habib Beye or a Keith Andrews in Blackburn's case, clubs paid a little more than what others were willing to pay. Ridculous really, and what we are seeing now, outside of essentially Man City and seemingly Liverpool is a bit of a reset amongst PL teams. The window thus far overall has been awful. Sunderland made a lot of average signings early on, and Liverpool paid a lot of money for good, not great players. Outside of that, it's been almost non-existent. What I've found very interesting is that as a club, we've made comments relating to FFP more than others. Or at least it seems that way. Yet, my belief is every club is starting to address it in their own way. They all need to sell certain players, but many are finding it hard to move their own Habib Beye's and Emile Heskey's because of the inflated salaries these players are on. We're fortunate to have sold most of those types of player, and even luckier that those two players are in their final 12 months and very likely will be gone next summer. My guess is there are many other clubs who aren't so lucky, and their transfer spending has been hurt as a result.
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Over the past few years every club has paid over the odds for mediocrity. Why? Because other clubs were doing it, so in order to get or keep a Steve Sidwell, a Habib Beye or a Keith Andrews in Blackburn's case, clubs paid a little more than what others were willing to pay. Ridculous really, and what we are seeing now, outside of essentially Man City and seemingly Liverpool is a bit of a reset amongst PL teams. The window thus far overall has been awful. Sunderland made a lot of average signings early on, and Liverpool paid a lot of money for good, not great players. Outside of that, it's been almost non-existent. What I've found very interesting is that as a club, we've made comments relating to FFP more than others. Or at least it seems that way. Yet, my belief is every club is starting to address it in their own way. They all need to sell certain players, but many are finding it hard to move their own Habib Beye's and Emile Heskey's because of the inflated salaries these players are on. We're fortunate to have sold most of those types of player, and even luckier that those two players are in their final 12 months and very likely will be gone next summer. My guess is there are many other clubs who aren't so lucky, and their transfer spending has been hurt as a result.
Well, yes, and Citeh have exactly the same problem; just at an altogether higher level, and one that excludes some good players getting valuable game-time ... Jimmy M for a start.
The wages-spiral will, in a few years' time, be regarded as one of the very significant reasons for the decline of England's better players. Increasingly I hope and pray for the success of clubs like Norwich who try and retain P'ship status without busting the bank.
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In the news paper yesterday. (Mail on Sunday i think)
It said that Man Citeh will be paying Bellany, adebayor and Hughes other unwanted signings over £400,000 a week in wages and they are not even going to be in the 25 man squad.
Thats over £20mil and they cant even kick a ball for them.
It really does show that they are in a different league when it comes to funding players.
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Even adding 10% or so on costs to each salary though, I still can't equate the wages (maybe 60 million) to not allowing us to manoever a small amount, taking the hit of 3-5 million in wages this season in the knowledge that next summer Young, Beye, Heskey will all be out of contract in any case.
2 players, well scouted on 25k a week - say the dutch winger and a destructive midfield player - are not going to tip the wages over the bank. I agree with cutting the wage bill, I just think it would have been good to have someone other than George Osborne doing the cutting.
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Even adding 10% or so on costs to each salary though, I still can't equate the wages (maybe 60 million) to not allowing us to manoever a small amount, taking the hit of 3-5 million in wages this season in the knowledge that next summer Young, Beye, Heskey will all be out of contract in any case.
2 players, well scouted on 25k a week - say the dutch winger and a destructive midfield player - are not going to tip the wages over the bank. I agree with cutting the wage bill, I just think it would have been good to have someone other than George Osborne doing the cutting.
I think outside of the very top end, the market is at a standstill right now Ozz. I don't believe that our transfer business has stopped. Neither do I l believe the market has closed. I think urgency will get things going again in the last 10 days where clubs realise they won't get what they want, players/agents will realise they have to curb their demands. I think it will be a bit more of buyers market towards the end as there are still a lot of unsigned players out there, and a lot of players at clubs where the squad size needs to be trimmed. Many players may not get into the 25 man PL squad. Those players (Man City's fat contract players aside maybe) will want to move on, and the clubs will want to move them on. Right now, my belief is that Villa are being quoted either stupid transfer fees or stupid wages for players they have an interest in.
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Good last point but the manager is probably on 2-3m a year plus his staff on another 1 million. Even if Villa then employ another 100 people on an average of £30k a year (including Faulkener and the like) thats only 3m - so maybe 7-8m tops for all the non-playing staff wages.
I think the previous point made that the figures quoted in the media may not include tax and NI could be right - but if it is that means say Darren Bent on £65k a week AFTER tax equates to him costing the club approx £150k a week after 50% income tax and employers and employees NI totalling approx a further 25%. If true that means he costs us £8m a year.
When you earn Darren Bent-sized wages paying tax is optional.
It's not, apparently footballers are actually paid PAYE.
It kind of seems wrong. A payslip like you or I would get, except with pretax pay of 250,000 on it. Mind boggling.
Worth remember also the employers NI contributions the club makes on these salaries, 11 percent (Risso will tell me if I'm wrong). So a player on 50k a week isn't costing 50k a week, it's more like 55 and a bit.
12.8%-13.8%
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It's not, apparently footballers are actually paid PAYE.
It kind of seems wrong. A payslip like you or I would get, except with pretax pay of 250,000 on it. Mind boggling.
Eh? Whatever a footballer earns, they'll pay tax and NI on it. There are clever ways of avoiding a certain amount of tax and NI, but they don't get paid PAYE. I'm not sure what you mean by that.
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It's not, apparently footballers are actually paid PAYE.
It kind of seems wrong. A payslip like you or I would get, except with pretax pay of 250,000 on it. Mind boggling.
Eh? Whatever a footballer earns, they'll pay tax and NI on it. There are clever ways of avoiding a certain amount of tax and NI, but they don't get paid PAYE. I'm not sure what you mean by that.
That's what I mean - they pay tax and NI on it.
I was just using the term PAYE to mean they're employees and subject to tax and NI, and not - as some would suggest - getting their salaries paid into holding companies in tax havens.
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Ah sorry, get you perfectly now.
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It's not, apparently footballers are actually paid PAYE.
It kind of seems wrong. A payslip like you or I would get, except with pretax pay of 250,000 on it. Mind boggling.
Eh? Whatever a footballer earns, they'll pay tax and NI on it. There are clever ways of avoiding a certain amount of tax and NI, but they don't get paid PAYE. I'm not sure what you mean by that.
That's what I mean - they pay tax and NI on it.
I was just using the term PAYE to mean they're employees and subject to tax and NI, and not - as some would suggest - getting their salaries paid into holding companies in tax havens.
I read an article by Max Clifford recently, saying Gareth Bale would earn £10-£20m in image rights (paid into a limited co) on top of his wages.
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I'd be interested to hear how that would affect their overall wage bill.
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Talking of wages, just heard a bit on 5 Live and they were saying that Levy has a strict £70k top limit at Spurs due to the limited income of 36000 capacity. That is why Harry cannot bring in the really top class players as they won't go there for that - Gervinho was mentioned as having gone to the Gunners due to Levy refusing to pay him more.
Also has anyone seen the list of players that was in a newspaper recently where they have been released and have not yet got a club - Hitz and Upson were two that I remember but I think the figure was over 200! (probably wrong though).
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Talking of wages, just heard a bit on 5 Live and they were saying that Levy has a strict £70k top limit at Spurs due to the limited income of 36000 capacity. That is why Harry cannot bring in the really top class players as they won't go there for that - Gervinho was mentioned as having gone to the Gunners due to Levy refusing to pay him more.
Also has anyone seen the list of players that was in a newspaper recently where they have been released and have not yet got a club - Hitz and Upson were two that I remember but I think the figure was over 200! (probably wrong though).
It was something like that but it did say that most frees wait until after the end of July to sign for a new club so as to get an extra month's pay from their old one.
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£70k should be more than enough for a club of Spurs and Villa's stature.
Anything more and you're going to have a seriously lopsided distribution if wages amongst the squad.