Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: oldtimernow on July 28, 2011, 10:04:25 AM
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Interesting piece , are we about to wave byebye to the SKY$4
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/jul/27/european-clubs-breakaway-fifa-uefa
Would this be an opportunity to re-establish a new order?
Step up a new McGregor I think
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As one of the top 20 clubs in Europe, why wouldn't we be joining them?.
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Absolutely agree we should be included but would we want to?
What about Manciteh's claims too?
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As one of the top 20 clubs in Europe, why wouldn't we be joining them?.
We only just crept into the top 20 on the basis of the season before last. I guess we are back out of the top 20 now. It may be in any event that additional places will be allocated to other Countries not already represented, such as France and Holland.
But could we be better off as the best of the rest?
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Absolutely agree we should be included but would we want to?
What about Manciteh's claims too?
This is the interesting thing. If it came to be a straight choice between Villa and Man City, who would they choose? The club with the history, tradition and the honours or the richest club on the planet?
If it did come down to them choosing us or Man City and they chose City it would tell you all you need to know about the game as it stands today.
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As one of the top 20 clubs in Europe, why wouldn't we be joining them?.
The Champions League has more or less established a closed shop of top (=richest) teams in Europe already. This isn't going to change any time soon, so those that have been able to perpetuate the "qualify - get money - strengthen - qualify - get more money - strengthen - qualify..." cycle, might as well piss off on a full-time basis, they have their super-league already.
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Bye.
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As one of the top 20 clubs in Europe, why wouldn't we be joining them?.
The Champions League has more or less established a closed shop of top (=richest) teams in Europe alreday. This isn't going to change any time soon, so those that have been able to perpetuate the "qualify - get money - strengthen - qualify - get more money - strengthen - qualify..." cycle, might as well piss off on a full-time basis, they have their super-league already.
Haven't Liverpool fallen out of that closed shop though? And aren't Arsenal looking increasingly vulnerable?
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Let them have their European Super League; it may enhance domestic competitions without the money whores.
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As one of the top 20 clubs in Europe, why wouldn't we be joining them?.
The Champions League has more or less established a closed shop of top (=richest) teams in Europe alreday. This isn't going to change any time soon, so those that have been able to perpetuate the "qualify - get money - strengthen - qualify - get more money - strengthen - qualify..." cycle, might as well piss off on a full-time basis, they have their super-league already.
Haven't Liverpool fallen out of that closed shop though? And aren't Arsenal looking increasingly vulnerable?
That's a couple of good points... Probably why they're specifically named as being interested parties. Pulling the ladder up, before they're chucked out of the club. Liverpool just talk as if they're still in the top four! Quite odd!
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So, no mancs, possibly half the scousers, hardly any cockneys from west london and half of them from north london, never coming to Villa Park again ? Crikey, we would only need the geordies to get relegated again and what visitors from what areas of England will I be left with to take the piss out of ?
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Liverpool and Arsenal have big global fanbases which is probably as important to those planning this as anything else.
Looks like this would signal the deathknell of international football as we know it.
Could also see matches being played in America and Asia - the 39th Game plan in another name
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As one of the top 20 clubs in Europe, why wouldn't we be joining them?.
We're one of the 20 richest clubs in Europe, but that list is probably at least 50 percent English clubs.
A European league is going to be about television revenues, and for that reason there won't be 9 or 10 English clubs in it.
There's no way we'd be one of them.
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Yep... bye bye.
be interesting to see how man ure fans etc. like it, having to watch them possibly finish 10th some years. As, you put the top 3 clubs in England against the REAL CREAM of europe ie. Barca, Real, Bayern, Inter etc. and they'll come up short. especially over 30 odd games.
So, good riddence to those lot, time for an introduction of a £50k wage cap like the US.
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Liverpool and Arsenal have big global fanbases which is probably as important to those planning this as anything else.
Looks like this would signal the deathknell of international football as we know it.
Could also see matches being played in America and Asia - the 39th Game plan in another name
These big global fan bases have only been built up on the back of the Champs League over these past few years, they're pretty easy to muster up with the right media strategy and PR. I'm sure if AFC Wimbledon were asked to join this new league they would pretty soon amass a hefty fan base, too. I think the point I'm trying to make is that people would watch such a league on the basis of hype as much as the clubs that are involved.
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The football played by the super rich clubs of the Champions League is better but does it have the excitement of the Premier league?
Assuming that the PL is the most watched football league around the world wouldn't PL clubs (the big 4 or 5) be wary of jumping ship for something that might not bring them anything above what they are already getting?
They have two TV revenue streams already so why would they want to give up one?
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Football will go wherever the money is, if that means English teams make more money from TV games in a Euro super league, where a global TV audience is willing to pay, compared to playing in front of a local crowd against local teams, then that is where it will go.
If millions of armchair fans in Asia generate more revenue than 40, 000 inside VP, i am pretty sure i know where the chairman (rightly or wrongly) would go.
Interesting that our new sponsors have the name written in English and what i guess is Chinese/Malay, it is fairly obvious where football is going.
TV is where the money is at, look at how the PL has flexed it's financial muscle over the years to move kick off times and days which suit the TV audience but not the fans at the games, and now the CL has moved the FA Cup final around to suit itself.
AVFC will just jump to the tune of the money the same as everyone else, sad but true.
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If it happens I'd be finished with football. I'd feel the same even if Villa were invited in.
A Super League without promotion / relegation with us below that competing against Man Utd and Chelsea's reserves isn't a game I'm interested in.
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Isn't this more to do with these clubs complaining at the proposed extra international games by FIFA and UEFA? And they're actnually complaining about that rather than an actual break away league?
Away games are going to to mighty expensive!!!
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Won't happen. Domestic leauges are still big enough cash cows to keep their interest. The top clubs moan about international football but they won't be able to get rid of it because, if nothing else, the majority of players take pride in playing international football. I know this will probably lead to a lot of disparaging comments about the commitment of certain England internationals but ask any player if they'd like a World Cup win in their collection & I think I know the answer.
PS if it does happen good riddance to them
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Wouldn't this just mean the UEFA Champion's League becomes The Champion's League or the Pepsi Champion's League or whatever? Other than that, I don't see what would change.
This European Super League nonsense has been talked about for years, but we're no closer to getting it & there doesn't appear to be any desire from the clubs to break away from the domestic leagues.
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I think the breakaway league would be midweek as the Champions League is now, leaving the weekends for the Premier League. I can foresee a time when there will be two leagues - a domestic at the weekend and a midweek European one, probably with two tiers (we'd be in the second tier) with a playoff to get promoted.
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I think the breakaway league would be midweek as the Champions League is now, leaving the weekends for the Premier League. I can foresee a time when there will be two leagues - a domestic at the weekend and a midweek European one, probably with two tiers (we'd be in the second tier) with a playoff to get promoted.
Unless I've missed the point that cant happen. Breakign away form FIFA and UEFA means breaking away from the FA too. Clubs who arent part of this (hopefully we wouldnt be) would be banned from playing games against them.
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If it happens, good riddance to them. Those left behind would have a far more competitive league on a more level playing field.
In the unlikely event that Villa were part of it, it would be bye bye Villa hello Kidderminster Harriers for me. My eldest son already prefers lower/non-league football to the PL although he still comes down the Villa with me when he's home, and to be honest I'm starting to lean that way too. Non-league day may yet have a significant impact on me!
Just a thought - If the proposed super-duper league broke away from FIFA and UEFA, would it impact on any players' eligibility for internationals, given that it's already being mooted that the players wouldn't take part in friendlies?
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There's been talk of a breakaway super league for 15 years. I just wish they'd fuck off and do it. Fans would soon get bored of watching a league with no promotion or relegation. Once the fans interest drops, tv will soon follow. What will these Billy Big Bollocks teams do then, with no tv revenue and falling attendances?
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There's been talk of a breakaway super league for 15 years. I just wish they'd fuck off and do it. Fans would soon get bored of watching a league with no promotion or relegation. Once the fans interest drops, tv will soon follow. What will these Billy Big Bollocks teams do then, with no tv revenue and falling attendances?
We'd welcome them back with open arms - once they'd played their way back through their local Blue Square/Conference/League 2/League 1/Championship same as any other new team ;)
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It's the right idea to question the true value EUFA and FIFA - and agents, but the motivation (more money please) and end result (a closed shop) are not going to do anything for the game as a whole. Yet another organisation where money takes precedence over true competition. I'm not sure I want to be part of a reality show whose true function is to provide titilation for audiences in the far east at a price.
Forget about issues over whether there should be promotion and relegation. Over time promotion to a European super league will be as pyrrhic as climbing from the Championship to the Premier League currently is. If we are not in at the ground floor, forget it. And on the whole I would be happy to do so.
I am surprised that Clubs have not challenged EUFA/FIFA before, or tried to do something about collectively addressing where all the money goes. "When you have every club losing money every year and the only winners the players and Fifa..." - no shit, Sherlock.
I did wonder whether Blatter had gone too far for his and FIFA's own good.
There's more to democracy than putting an X on a ballot paper. The current constitution of FIFA has left us with a situation where the tail is wagging the dog. In all the recent shenanigans over World Cup venues the names that cropped up as the true powerbrokers were inevitably from an FA that otherwise was pretty insignificant. The countries that would ultimately provide the teams for the knockout stages, not to mention delivering the bulk of the TV revenues, virtually had no say at all and got little else for their trouble than a kick in the nadgers.
It's a bit like having a House of Commons where the Isle of Sky and London both have a single representative.
There are a lot of rotten boroughs in football. A number that could well increase by one.
Football could well die as a result. As long as it remained a community resource - however widely you define community - it had a strength of its own. As soon as it decided it was a product and put itself in competition with X-Boxes, social networking technology and so on, and merely competed for people's time and money it was always likely to struggle in the long term.
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I think as a founding member of league football it is important if not beholden upon us to take a leading role in this sort of decision making.
I would be quite happy for the Sky$4 to clear off and play in what would possibly become a sort of display competition whilst we could then be left involved in something more competitive, interesting and enjoyable.
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I thI would be quite happy for the Sky$4 to clear off and play in what would possibly become a sort of display competition whilst we could then be left involved in something more competitive, interesting and enjoyable.
Sounds good in theory, but how many of the "second tier" clubs that were left behind would go to the wall when the TV money followed the "big boys" to the European League?
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I think as a founding member of league football it is important if not beholden upon us to take a leading role in this sort of decision making.
I would be quite happy for the Sky$4 to clear off and play in what would possibly become a sort of display competition whilst we could then be left involved in something more competitive, interesting and enjoyable.
I think, as the creators of league football, we should make our voice heard. If this move has genuine integrity then Aston Villa need to be consulted.
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Does the contract with UEFA and FIFA that ends in 2014 have any relation to Premier League clubs contracts with the FA? If not, would this simply mean an end or change to current European competitions with the domestic leagues carrying on?
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I read this last night. I'd happy if they split away. If it meant what was left and teams could compete again with each other then that's fine by me. If they split, they should go for good with no chance of return. I'd be more than happy if the league was 4 or 5 teams less, if we had a much better chance of winning things by good management, and hopefully some sort of salary cap.
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If they did go then it would be a good opportunity for those who remain to completely overhaul the league. We could bring in genuinely strict financial regulation and a US style salary cap. Not a cap relative to income. An actual £s amount cap. It would mean the best players being spread out amongst all the teams.
Obviously we wouldnt see the very best players in our league because they'd all have followed the money to the breakaway Super Intergalactic Champions League. But its all relative. I'd love it and almost certainly get my season ticket again.
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It won't happen, they will come to some agreement. I can't see the CL usual suspects setting up a league independent of UEFA and FIFA. They would have to have a league and knockout cup competition just amonst themselves. UEFA and FIFA wouldn't let them compete in their domestic leagues, the players would probably be banned from international football and even transfers in and out could be a problem. It would be interesting to see whether an Ashley Young or Luca Modric would choose to stay with one of the top clubs left and have a good chance of winning things and be able to play for their country or go and compete in the 'new' league and no longer be able to play international football.
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Heart echoes Dave's "see yer later then" comment but.... Head says what we'd be left with would be Championship MrkII. The quality of football would be shit, there would be likely be no squad size limit for the elite clubs and certainly no wage cap so every single last player of quality would be off.
We'd be left with a little league scenario like in baseball and clubs like Villa would really struggle to stay afloat because the TV revenue would disappear faster than you could say Scottish Premier League.
In short, I think it would be a disaster, especially for 'second tier' clubs like ours.
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Most fans of Scottish clubs other than Rangers & Celtic would love the Old Firm to bugger off to a Euro or English league so they could all scrap it out on a level playing field (or as close as you can get to one given some clubs will always have more cash than others, but properly administrated it's achievable). Similarly, the Premiership would be a better spectacle without the mega monied big clubs involved, I'd drive them to the airports myself.
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While i do get the whole level playing field thing, I worry about the revenue drop. How would clubs like Villa, Everton, Sunderland, Spurs etc fund the massive operations they currently do? 43,000 seater stadiums, club shops, everything geared towards the big time. It would be a huge scaling down required and certain clubs would, and there is no doubt of this, perish. It'd be OK for the smaller clubs. For us it would be a disaster I think.
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Apalling thought. IMHO.
What? Travelling to Spain or Germany for an away game? It is once again -like the Premier League- a chance for the big guys to run the circus. Guess what ,a circus only survives if the punters pay to watch.
And we won't. Sky might but we won't. Can't afford it. We don't earn 200k a month.
This is a reach too far. They all want to make out on the worldwide success of the Premier League. That is fine if twenty Million Chinese support Man U - they might buy a shirt once a year but they don't but tickets every second week.
Financially, and that is all this is about. It doesn't compute. Again IMHO
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While i do get the whole level playing field thing, I worry about the revenue drop. How would clubs like Villa, Everton, Sunderland, Spurs etc fund the massive operations they currently do? 43,000 seater stadiums, club shops, everything geared towards the big time. It would be a huge scaling down required and certain clubs would, and there is no doubt of this, perish. It'd be OK for the smaller clubs. For us it would be a disaster I think.
I think we could form our own league and market it in a different way, based on different, more old-fashioned principles. We could return the game to the way it was: a wage cap and so on. We could make the game fairer and based on the virtues of true sportsmanship and genuine competition. I think there would be a real market out there for this. Indeed, I think, in time, this league would be looked upon as the better, "cooler", more fashionable league. More importantly it would be a league formed for the right reasons.
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What's the difference between this and the top 10 of the EPL? Very little. Or indeed NFL and that maintains interest.
Frankly I love the Villa and would want them to be at the top but don't really give a shite what happens. As soon as EPL was formed the European version became inevitable.
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a few years ago i would have been dead against this, but now would welcome it with open arms,
we will never again be able to compete against the big money clubs in the prem, its imposible, there is absolutley no competition in the prem outside of the clubs with big money to spend,
its a totaly pointless competition to a club like Villa who are at least trying to live within there means
let them go and take the tv money and the best players, and the rest of us can get back to watching football on a levelish playing field with kick offs at 3 o'clock, and without all the hype and bullshit that surrounds the game at the moment.
yes i know crowds would probably dip, so what,
yes we wouldnt be live on sky, so what
we would be getting back to the game as it used to be,
the main problem is that the big clubs would soon get fed up with the european league, playing in europe every week sounds fancifull, but in reality fans like there trips to West Ham, Villa, Everton, Sunderland, Fulham, Wolves, Wigan etc and the novelty would soon wear thin,
if it were to happen, and we were invited in, that certainly would be it for me, the tipping point would have arrived, no thanks
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Let it happen, let the top four or five clubs in England go into it, then see how many want to watch Liverpool and Arsenal once the novelty's worn off and they're finishing 17th every season.
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I'm sure this has been banded about before. It didn't happen then and it won't happen now
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While i do get the whole level playing field thing, I worry about the revenue drop. How would clubs like Villa, Everton, Sunderland, Spurs etc fund the massive operations they currently do? 43,000 seater stadiums, club shops, everything geared towards the big time. It would be a huge scaling down required and certain clubs would, and there is no doubt of this, perish. It'd be OK for the smaller clubs. For us it would be a disaster I think.
I think we could form our own league and market it in a different way, based on different, more old-fashioned principles. We could return the game to the way it was: a wage cap and so on. We could make the game fairer and based on the virtues of true sportsmanship and genuine competition. I think there would be a real market out there for this. Indeed, I think, in time, this league would be looked upon as the better, "cooler", more fashionable league. More importantly it would be a league formed for the right reasons.
Unless it scaled down gradually for a good 5 or 6 years, we and other clubs of our current stature would be up shit creek before this new league had a chance to be anything approaching cool.
It wouldn't be like going back to the old style league either because 5 or 6 of the teams would no longer be competing and the feel of it all would be a bit wooden spoon.
I agree that the CL is already a closed-shop and something does need to be done to rectify this, starting a new league isn't the way forward though. I personally think it should be the winners of the league like the 'good' old days. If this can't happen then top 2 in the league qualify and another place gets decided in a play off between 3rd to 6th. This would at least give most teams a chance like in the Championship playoff.
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I am somewhat agnostic on this. On the one hand it would mean a more competitive and interesting league with greater opportunities for us to win things (assuming we are not in it - which I would like). I am an Aston Villa supporter and regardless of what is going on I will continue to be so and I'm sure that there are plenty who feel the same way. Regardless of the league, quality or what is going on we will still have a healthy support and be Aston Villa. I'd much rather have that than have to schlep out to Munich or Madrid for an away game. However, we may lose all our good players to the big league and we would have a financial black hole from the loss of TV money.
What I think will happen is nothing. This league will not happen and the governing bodies and the top clubs will reach a compromise which will probably involve reform of the bodies, the abolition of international friendlies and perhaps even a watering down of financial fairplay regulations.
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Can't we all just get along? Its strange that something so simple as a game of football causes all of this political dispute. Just get all the players in each league into a big group, each club takes it in turns to pick one player, then find a couple of jumpers for goalposts and a ball and off they go.
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The football bubble will burst as surely as all other bubbles have.
Is it better to let those that want to move on do so and let them bear the brunt of the calamity whilst those with the interest of the sport and its supporters are left to enjoy a more regulated competition. Where your chance of success is not determined by how deep are the pockets of your owner/sponsor/sugar daddy but by the way you can develop and nurture talented individuals.
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I am somewhat agnostic on this. On the one hand it would mean a more competitive and interesting league with greater opportunities for us to win things (assuming we are not in it - which I would like). I am an Aston Villa supporter and regardless of what is going on I will continue to be so and I'm sure that there are plenty who feel the same way. Regardless of the league, quality or what is going on we will still have a healthy support and be Aston Villa. I'd much rather have that than have to schlep out to Munich or Madrid for an away game. However, we may lose all our good players to the big league and we would have a financial black hole from the loss of TV money.
What I think will happen is nothing. This league will not happen and the governing bodies and the top clubs will reach a compromise which will probably involve reform of the bodies, the abolition of international friendlies and perhaps even a watering down of financial fairplay regulations.
some good points made there.
i think the most difficult part is the transition, obviously you cant go from having millions of pounds from TV money to next to nothing and survive,
but if that could somehow be overcome [and i dont know how] you would be left with a league where players didnt get paid the monstrous sums they are getting today,
maybe the whole thing could downscale and be a lot more fan based, with cheaper tickets and more people supporting there local clubs,
yes, it would be a sort of second teir football, but thats what weve got now to be fair, when a player comes or goes to Man City/Man utd for the same amount or more than Randy paid for the whole of AVFC then we are second tier, like it or not.
the players would be playing hoping for a big money move to the 'big' league, but thats just something we would have to accept,and again no different from whats happening now, see Young/Downing etc
i dont think it will happen certainly not in the short term, and its just a bit of wishfull thinking on my part, but hey i can dream if i want
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Whilst this seems an obvious next-step development on the Chumps League and doesn't necessarily surprise me I hanker for a time when football was more grounded in the lives of its fans, rather than in the unreality of their obscenely-rich owners.
Whether I'd feel the same if Villa were in the elite group is perhaps questionable - well, actually it isn't 'cos it would still seem pretty grubby to me - but my 'take' on it is that (i) teams like Villa will suffer relatively even more under this scenario; (ii) more 'top-club' football will disppear into a pay-per-view environment; (iii) getting hold of, and then keeping. good / great footballers will get more difficult as the rewards from an elite league build (at the same time sucking sponsorship money away from those that don't make the 'elite' status).
I read somewhere that the clubs who were to break away would want to try and put their second teams into their national leagues - as happens in Spain currently - in order to retain some presence there.
There might be the benefit that terrestrial TV might be in a position to afford a better live football offering ... not sure whether that'd be good or bad, frankly.
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Let say if you are Real Madrid and play in such league and not la liga how patience would those team be to win the league as you might not be able to win the trophies often enough. Instead of being top dog in Spain, would they be happy with top 6 position or thereabout.
Fans will be bored and too much travelling and no underdog or giant killing. Where are the places for Villareeal, Nottingham Forest and co.
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The first law of football is “follow the money”.
A breakaway by the “top Euro Clubs” may mean nothing more than more money , and power, for them. We have a de facto Euro League anyway when you look at who has qualified from the major footballing countries since the inception of the CL.
The next move will be that the English CL clubs sell their TV rights individually to enable them to compete with Barca / Real Madrid.
The PL 39th game will not come about simply because whilst Liverpool v Man U in Delhi would be huge, Wigan v Fulham in Bejing would not, but Chelsea v Bayern Munich in Manilla would. Expect a deal where the top Euro clubs, not the top PL clubs, play on neutral territory.
With English clubs having owners from America, Egypt, the Middle and Far East it is inevitable that the commercial lure from those territories will prove irresistible. Expect a tournament where the top Euro and South American Clubs compete against franchise clubs drawing payers from the “best of the rest” enabling Bejing v Man U, Sydney v Barcelona and New York v Bayern Munich on an annual basis in the “close season”. All the tensions we have seen in the Cricket IPL will surface as non-participating clubs squeal as their best players are lured with multi-million pay packets ( and compensation packages for those clubs) during the (summer?) break.
And it will all come to pass.
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I think by the time the Qatar WC comes around this will happen in some form. FIFA are in dissaray and that creates an opportunity. Blatter will fall in line just like the FA did with the PL.
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Bye.
Let it happen, let the top four or five clubs in England go into it, then see how many want to watch Liverpool and Arsenal once the novelty's worn off and they're finishing 17th every season.
this
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I can see it being like World Series Cricket. All the best players will want to be part of it, as will sponsors and TV and probably wealthy owners too. What would be in it for Randy Lerner to stay at Villa?
It's tempting just to say fuck 'em but it is very difficult to predict what the impact will be on the rest of us.
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I think that would be it for me and football. I already prefer rugby now (something that wasn't the case ten years ago). I'd also be pretty pessimistic as to what it would mean for Villa. For those thinking that somehow this would all be a failure for those involved in the super league, then I think your dreaming. It'd be different, maybe you just wouldn't have significant away supporters, but the hype and the TV money for this would be huge. It would be an effect like the dawning of the CL for the clubs involved and I think it would be a huge financial success. There would also be a huge vacuum of finance for those clubs left behind and I fear you would see a lot of clubs just like us go to the wall. International football would also be finished. Someone asked if footballers would prefer the mega bucks or the 'pride of playing for their national sides, well I think we all know what the answer to that would actually be. Footballers have already shown where their loyalties lie (and it won't be to their national flag) and it is for that reason that I'm falling out of love with football; this development though would be grounds for divorce....
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This will happen and the trigger will be the FFP rules.
By bringing those in UEFA have set themselves on a head-on trajectory with the big clubs. Sooner or later a big club will breach the rules and UEFA will have to either punish them and run the risk of the rich owner kicking up a major fuss (can you imagine Real Madrid accepting being kicked out of the Champions League?) or backing down and that will effectively mean the end of UEFA authority. UEFA falling, as the major financial constituent of FIFA, will bring the whole circus down.
With FIFA and UEFA fucked the clubs will follow the money to this European Super League. The major concern as many people have pointed out is how clubs like ours will cope when the vast majority of our funding (TV money) stops. All the best players will leave and we'll be left with a very poor relation to what we have now. It doesn't sound good.
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I was'nt that overly bothered about the Man Utd V Barcelona CL Final the other month so they can play each other as many times as they like for all i care.