Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: griffter1982 on July 25, 2011, 06:52:34 PM
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Back in 1992, who would have envisaged that £50 million, £20, £10 million would be what a football player was worth. And a salary of a footballer would rival our top minds and be vastly less than honourable in this country? That being said, it is what it is.
Chairman’s and football teams and players since have come and gone in vast amounts. Now the topic all real football fans care to delve into is the debt. There’s debt all across the world, some didn’t invest heavily into stocks and shares until the time was right, and had enough assets to keep a certain amount of wealth within its means. The same will happen in football. I firmly believe that riding the tide but keeping your head well above water in the next few years is extremely important. Knowing family members and family friends at the top end of their own business, the ‘saving for a rainy day’ policy is integral to deal with any circumstances that arise. As we all know, there’s major circumstances other teams are having to deal with.
Look 3 miles down the road.
What does every business need? The tools, the assets, the infrastructure. Football teams in general are different to other business’s granted, but the basics are important.
In recent weeks we’ve seen a lot of business go threw the Premier League, Liverpool for example. Last season they didn’t manage to clinch a European spot for the first time in years, the new owner has taken the risk, the gamble in investing a lot not only into signings but more wages. Here’s some figures.
TOP PREMIER LEAGUE WAGE BILLS 2009-10
Chelsea - £174m (£167m)
Man City - £133m (£83m)
Man Utd - £132m (£123m)
Liverpool - £121m (£107m)
Arsenal - £111m (£104m)
In brackets was previous amounts, the other being estimated amount. Aston Villa’s wage bill stood in between £70-£80 million. This is a staggering amount for a team that’s not in Europe. Some might say ‘all the more reason to invest so we can be a part of the elite’. To me that makes no sense because Aston Villa is a business as well as an institution. We’ve seen English car companies do the same in the past 40-50 years and we’re left with only a few. My point being that making sure your making a net profit you are always able to invest brick by brick.
With FIFA’s new financial fair play regulation coming through next season I think this is the only way forward until we break into Europe. I think everybody has to look at the future of the football club and not look for quick fix answers which are what a lot of the premier league does to no avail. The reason I am making this post is response to all the comments I’ve seen all week, actually all month. People’s impatience, people’s failure to reason and most importantly, the fact the great deal are pessimistic.
Let’s look at the infrastructure of Aston Villa. We have an amazing training ground and academy facilities, and is one of the best in the country to get the best out of the players, currently one of, if not thee, best youth in the country. We have a great, big stadium that can get a lot of revenue. As a football club we have a lot in place where it looks positive. Our first team has been slashed since the end of the season, we’ve lost a few players who have been major to us for the last few seasons but something we haven’t had in years upon years we finally have, A goalscorer, and a vast amount of ‘youth’ coming through that need their time on the big stage, to prove how good they, and our academy is, as well as a few players that’s will hopefully be like new signings to us. This looking over the fence at other teams mentality and constant fear we’ll be outdone is something I cant stand. ‘Proven’ players was once youth and got their chance, we have at least 5 we can all name straight away that we want to see.
All week I’ve seen impatient comments all over the internet, facebook, twitter, villa forums, sky sports…with “sort it out” “put your hand in your pocket Randy” “the boards gotta go” “we’re goanna go down” “that ginger bastard needs to pull his finger out his arse”. I get that people question, I get people are anxious, I get that people are nervous. But whatever happened to controlling yourself and logically thinking about a situation. I think a lot of us get Randy's thinking, that its vital we get the wages down in order to maintain a profitable business in order to progress from year to year. Holding your nerve and not splashing out in the long term WILL pay off. Aston Villa Football Club is not a business to be gambled away like the rest of the premier league (with the exception of Arsenal). We will reap the rewards in years to come when teams are going bankrupt and not being able to get into the precious European spots. One year before the implements its imperative you get your business in order for the long run, others (like Liverpool) are gambling. Maybe it'll pay off, but imagine if it doesn't? My point being please sit tight.
Now a lot has been said about the chairman. But in Randy I trust. Since his take over he has made profit’s go up £50 million, the only thing letting us down was the ridiculous wage bill. Not to mention his investments into the club since 2006 stands at £200 million. In the coming years when certain teams are breaking their necks to get into Europe but cant when because they cant balance the books, we’ll be able to pick threw the bones and find gold! Its all about holding your nerve and having faith. He may not be born into the club and have claret and blue blood, but I think its good he’s not because blind faith is disastrous. I am more than happy we have a successful businessman at the helm, running Aston Villa the way it should, and not like some toy.
I recently read a long post saying that over the years its been disappointment after disappointment which your entitled to think but going forward to have that pessimistic outlook then we are gonna be doomed. This is a time to unite! If we want to see good things for the Villa, for the youth and for the young fans coming threw we must all adopt the positive attitude, where if a player tries something and it doesn’t come off you say 'unlucky' rather than “that’s shit”.
If your reading this and your one of those people who constantly moan, constantly have your negative pennyworth on forums, think of the effect it has.. Have faith! Give Alex time, give it all time. Because of the way the premier league actually is, we’ll be reaping the rewards soon enough. That’s for sure.
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I think we should keep youth development and bring in one big signing every year as it is sensible way, like Real Madrid in Ronaldo, Beckham, Figo, Zidane days. As it can't be good for the club to spend 40 millions pounds on players every season. We don't need expensive journeymen benchsitters on long contract with high wages.
I think Barcelona current system is a excellent way to follow but not with their high wages.
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I like to moan and groan but tomorrow night I will be watching the claret & blue shirts at Chasetown -
Keep The Faith -
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Great post.
I've been saying this on other forums elsewhere, you get these doom and gloom merchants who have us relegated before a ball's been kicked. Then there're the ones who say Randy's spent no money, yes, unbelievable, you can't get your hat on at some comments. You begin to wonder what these people really want.
Agree with post 2. One big signing a season and maybe a couple of minor ones and develop the younger guys.
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When I was young, I had a dream, to watch the greatest football team
Now here we are, we believe, in Randy Lerner and Alex McLeish....
and Alex McLeish, and Alex McLeish, and Alex McLeish
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Nice sentiments, but if your theory hangs on the fair play rules coming into being then sadly this is naive in the extreme. these are the people who sold the World Cup to Qatar. Citeh have no chance of meeting the criteria but I dont see them holding back, they will fiddle the numbers as will Real Madrid Barcelona and countless others. They are going to say you can not enter the CL, yeh right
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So to sum up: think happy thoughts and it's jam tomorrow. Gah.
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Would UEFA stop giants from entering Champions League due to unfair finanical stuff. Would Michel Platini say to Real Madrid no you can't enter or tell Sky and co Real Madrid is not entering.
I don't think so.
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6 years ago it "at least we're not Leeds". Now it's "we have to obey the UEFA financial rules". Like they're going to matter to us.
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I'm sorry but that post is just to long to read on my little iPhone, so I shan't be bothering
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I'm sure I watched us playing a UEFA Cup qualifier against Rapid Vienna in 2010, maybe I was sleep watching again. Or maybe it was just deja vu.
I disagree with villadawg on many, many things. But in one key respect, I think he has a point: RL took the club on in 2006 at a good price. He knew also that to close the gap on the sides above us he'd need to spend considerably to grow the business. This would also mean making up for the shortfall in revenue that we receive, compared to the clubs we were competing with.
Any arguments past that point generally centre on how this money was spent, was it maximised to it's full potential? Did we get the full benefit of it? I'd say no. Others would still have you believe that a certain curly haired Ulsterman actually had us punching above our weight.
In most businesses, staying in the black and turning a profit -even a small one is- clearly the way to go. But football isn't like most businesses. A big lump sum spent at a critical juncture can have far more benefit than modest, sensible spending on a consistent basis.
None of us can honestly say we're certain of what RL's plans are from this point onwards. Whenever this site has gone into meltdown previously, with our imminent doom being being forecast on various transfer and manager related threads, RL has come through. I don't agree with some of the recent decisions, but -on balance- there has still been far more good than bad. If RL is cutting back his level of investment, so be it. As a football fan I'd be disappointed, but we have no divine right to expect the club to skittle the Lerner family trust. The wage bill was also something that clearly needed to addressed, as it was bloated to dangerous levels.
I don't see turning a small net profit year by year as anything to truly aspire to though, if I'm honest. Not if it means consistently selling our best players and being permanently marooned somewhere between 6th-16th. You don't put balance sheets in the trophy cabinet.
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I'm sorry but that post is just to long to read on my little iPhone, so I shan't be bothering
that's a pity as it was a pretty good post
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I hate the idea of waiting for other clubs to go to pot in order for us to become competitive again. Plus we seem to have been saying that for a long, long time.
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If you want to make money, don't buy a football club or an airline. Eventually it will all end in tears.
But hey someone has to do it and I think Doug Ellis is still doing a good job as the chairman.
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That remark made me laugh Pig, a fellow Villa fan i know has been saying for the last 3 or 4 years that Doug was still in charge.I use to laugh at him but now i am not so sure!
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If you want to make money, don't buy a football club or an airline. Eventually it will all end in tears.
But hey someone has to do it and I think Doug Ellis is still doing a good job as the chairman.
That's funny, but we all know Doug would never have allowed the club to spend 80 percent of income (or whatever it is) on salaries; never in a million years!
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I agree with you Griffter we need to get behind everybody at the club and all pull in the same direction.
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I'm sorry but that post is just to long to read on my little iPhone, so I shan't be bothering
Would you like me to draw you some pictures?
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Great post!
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Great post.
I've been saying this on other forums elsewhere, you get these doom and gloom merchants who have us relegated before a ball's been kicked. Then there're the ones who say Randy's spent no money, yes, unbelievable, you can't get your hat on at some comments. You begin to wonder what these people really want.
Agree with post 2. One big signing a season and maybe a couple of minor ones and develop the younger guys.
I'll stick to being pessimistic and moaning as I see fit
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Great post.
I've been saying this on other forums elsewhere, you get these doom and gloom merchants who have us relegated before a ball's been kicked. Then there're the ones who say Randy's spent no money, yes, unbelievable, you can't get your hat on at some comments. You begin to wonder what these people really want.
Agree with post 2. One big signing a season and maybe a couple of minor ones and develop the younger guys.
I'll stick to being pessimistic and moaning as I see fit
He obviously struggles with the notion that other people aren't quite so blindly optimistic.
I also object to the suggestion that not been so optimistic means you're in some way not behind the manager or the team. It's the boring old "better fan than yow" thing again.
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I am nowhere near as depressive as some but the original post is nonsense. The idea that we sit on our hands, turning a small profit like a one man window cleaners, and then world domination beckons when swathes of teams go out of business? Bloody hell, that really is back to Dougonomics.
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This is the second one of these long winded posts this week that seem designed just to get as many people as possible replying "great post!!!!!1111".
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Great post.
I've been saying this on other forums elsewhere, you get these doom and gloom merchants who have us relegated before a ball's been kicked. Then there're the ones who say Randy's spent no money, yes, unbelievable, you can't get your hat on at some comments. You begin to wonder what these people really want.
Agree with post 2. One big signing a season and maybe a couple of minor ones and develop the younger guys.
I'll stick to being pessimistic and moaning as I see fit
He obviously struggles with the notion that other people aren't quite so blindly optimistic.
I also object to the suggestion that not been so optimistic means you're in some way not behind the manager or the team. It's the boring old "better fan than yow" thing again.
Tend to agree
As a fan you pay your money so if you chose to boo after a shit performance you can boo.
Some people are pessimistic because we have seen it all so may times
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Great post.
I've been saying this on other forums elsewhere, you get these doom and gloom merchants who have us relegated before a ball's been kicked. Then there're the ones who say Randy's spent no money, yes, unbelievable, you can't get your hat on at some comments. You begin to wonder what these people really want.
Agree with post 2. One big signing a season and maybe a couple of minor ones and develop the younger guys.
I'll stick to being pessimistic and moaning as I see fit
He obviously struggles with the notion that other people aren't quite so blindly optimistic.
I also object to the suggestion that not been so optimistic means you're in some way not behind the manager or the team. It's the boring old "better fan than yow" thing again.
: pauliebentnuts: That's not what I'm saying.
I'm not "blindy optimistic" and I don't begrudge peoples opinions that differ from mine either.
What I'm saying is that I can't understand fans who think we've a devine right to be "Top 4" and have us relegation material before the seasons starts.
Every fan of every club should start the season with at least a glimmer of optimism (obviously not in your case) even if it's being optimistic of avoiding relegation. Did all the Blackpool fans start the season with " Why bother? We're going down anyway"? I bet they didn't. I bet they all started the season with "it will be a struggle, but, we'll stay up.
You're entitled to your opinions, I haven't a problem with that, but you obviously have a problem with people expressing theirs though!
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I actually think the pessimism is lifting a bit of late. Most people are happy with Given and also N'Zogbia looks like getting done. Add to that the win at Walsall, where some of our 'salvage jobs' looked in good nick, and even if not ultra happy with things, some predictions seem to have gone from relegation scrap to mid table mediocrity.
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I love it when the Pessimists take umbrage with the Optomists.
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I'll be ever the optimist when we have at least 6 points from our first 3 games.
Until the Fulham game I will draw nothing from our performances because pre season friendlies mean jack shit
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Pre season friendlies mean a little bit more than jack shit. Certainly a bit more again when we have a new manager and a potentially new style of play.
How else do you propose we assess the match fitness levels of players, new formations and the starting 11 with the season only a few weeks away?
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I actually think the pessimism is lifting a bit of late. Most people are happy with Given and also N'Zogbia looks like getting done. Add to that the win at Walsall, where some of our 'salvage jobs' looked in good nick, and even if not ultra happy with things, some predictions seem to have gone from relegation scrap to mid table mediocrity.
A bad show against Blackburn and the tide will turn.
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You're entitled to your opinions, I haven't a problem with that, but you obviously have a problem with people expressing theirs though!
No, I don't at all, the point i was trying to make was that going on about "what do people expect" and "for all those constantly moaning" blah blah blah is patronising in the extreme.
Your point about "relegated before a ball is kicked" is one example, and the original poster's long ramble which seemed to be saying "if you're pessimistic, you're clearly not behind the team and manager" is an even better one.
I am massively uninspired by the managerial apppointment, I think the club is abysmally run, and I think the belief that getting one more signing in and relying on the kids is cause to think we can challenge for top four (see the General's last post on VT) is incredibly wishful thinking and more likely to end up with us as bottom four, but I fucking object to people suggesting I'm in some way "not supporting the manager" or not behind the team. I'll be there in my seat as usual next year, supporting the team, and giving the manager a chance to show I was totally wrong.
As I said, it is patronising guff - the old "better fan than you" argument dressed up in some nonsense about sitting tight, using the kids more and hoping lots of clubs go bust.
It's almost as if people have forgotten what happened last season when, due to injuries, we had to rely on the kids too much. It all went to shit. Except now there seems to be the implication that we should have an actual policy of doing precisely that.
If it is such an obvious good idea, why weren't these same people saying "hang on, no, I don't think we should be spending 40m on players this summer, I reckon we should be really prudent, sit tight and use the kids instead" when we were spending big money?
Madness.
Incidentally, where did this "divine right to top four" thing come from? I don't think I have ever seen a post which suggested someone thought we had that.
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I actually think the pessimism is lifting a bit of late. Most people are happy with Given and also N'Zogbia looks like getting done. Add to that the win at Walsall, where some of our 'salvage jobs' looked in good nick, and even if not ultra happy with things, some predictions seem to have gone from relegation scrap to mid table mediocrity.
A bad show against Blackburn and the tide will turn.
Don't worry - we can turn that around when we next play them again, which shouldn't take too long ;)
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This is the second one of these long winded posts this week that seem designed just to get as many people as possible replying "great post!!!!!1111".
great post!!!!!1111
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You're entitled to your opinions, I haven't a problem with that, but you obviously have a problem with people expressing theirs though!
No, I don't at all, the point i was trying to make was that going on about "what do people expect" and "for all those constantly moaning" blah blah blah is patronising in the extreme.
Your point about "relegated before a ball is kicked" is one example, and the original poster's long ramble which seemed to be saying "if you're pessimistic, you're clearly not behind the team and manager" is an even better one.
I am massively uninspired by the managerial apppointment, I think the club is abysmally run, and I think the belief that getting one more signing in and relying on the kids is cause to think we can challenge for top four (see the General's last post on VT) is incredibly wishful thinking and more likely to end up with us as bottom four, but I fucking object to people suggesting I'm in some way "not supporting the manager" or not behind the team. I'll be there in my seat as usual next year, supporting the team, and giving the manager a chance to show I was totally wrong.
As I said, it is patronising guff - the old "better fan than you" argument dressed up in some nonsense about sitting tight, using the kids more and hoping lots of clubs go bust.
It's almost as if people have forgotten what happened last season when, due to injuries, we had to rely on the kids too much. It all went to shit. Except now there seems to be the implication that we should have an actual policy of doing precisely that.
If it is such an obvious good idea, why weren't these same people saying "hang on, no, I don't think we should be spending 40m on players this summer, I reckon we should be really prudent, sit tight and use the kids instead" when we were spending big money?
Madness.
Incidentally, where did this "divine right to top four" thing come from? I don't think I have ever seen a post which suggested someone thought we had that.
I have introduced a new "post of the month" competition, and am pleased to report that you are the very first winner.
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Pre season friendlies mean a little bit more than jack shit. Certainly a bit more again when we have a new manager and a potentially new style of play.
How else do you propose we assess the match fitness levels of players, new formations and the starting 11 with the season only a few weeks away?
Yes you can use them to assess fitness, formations but you cannot read anything into the outcome.
For example the way some were going on about the walsall game I thought we had beaten Real Madrid when in fact it was a shit 1st division team
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It was the same when we won the Peace Cup. Yes it was good, and the young players did well, but when you're in a bad spell in March and the squad is creaking, pre-season games 6 months earlier don't really have any relevance. The best thing about the Walsall game was probably that it got Mcleish off to a good start and relieved some of the pressure. Imagine if his first game in charge had been a 3-0 loss to another Premier League team.
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The thing with friendlies is you can't read anything into them, especially not the very first one, they're of little relevance beyond getting prepped for the season physically.
I also don't think AM was ever going to get the barrage of abuse some thought he would (or that, bizarrely, the Daily Mail thought he actually did get).
The vast, vast majority of people who didn't want to see him appointed are bright enough to realise that throwing abuse at him during matches is going to achieve absolutely nothing. I suspect that includes the vast majority of those who were pointlessly protesting at VP when he got the job.
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I agree the results of pre-season friendlies matter little, but had we lost to Walsall some on here would be talking of being certainties for relegation, calling McLeish's resignation, Randy's head and Faulkner's public flogging.
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Can we tar and feather Faulkner instead, then?
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I do feel that beating Walsall by two goals, an encouraging cameo from Ireland, and the impending signing of N'Zogbia (pleasing though that is) is perhaps masking the bigger picture. Tot up the players sold or released in the last 18 months - and be realistic, don't include the half-dozen kids from the end of this season, just first teamers and first team squad members who have left - and then compare with those who have arrived in the last 18 months. Draw your own conclusions; I've drawn mine.
I'll always stand by the club and the team, we can be playing non-league football and I'll always be proud of the Villa. But I do reserve the right to be critical of what's happening and question the direction we're now taking. Prompted by a reference on here, I've just been to another Villa site and read a post from the General... the level of denial, the lack of understanding as to why fans are concerned, and the overwhelming theme of 'nothing's changed, we're still going for 4th place' is quite remarkable.
At the very least this summer, the very least, I expected the manager to be able to spend money generated by player sales. Seems he's not even getting all of that, but around 50%. If it wasn't sell to buy before, it is now... perhaps sell sell release release to buy.
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I agree the results of pre-season friendlies matter little, but had we lost to Walsall some on here would be talking of being certainties for relegation, calling McLeish's resignation, Randy's head and Faulkner's public flogging.
I remember us losing with a full strength team to walsall in I think 2004 when merson had just become their player manager. I didn't worry and we beat Southampton 2-0 on the opening day.
I vowed never to watch a friendly again after the valencia game last season when I left at half time because watch a repeat of Homes under the hammer was more appealing
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I do feel that beating Walsall by two goals, an encouraging cameo from Ireland, and the impending signing of N'Zogbia (pleasing though that is) is perhaps masking the bigger picture. Tot up the players sold or released in the last 18 months - and be realistic, don't include the half-dozen kids from the end of this season, just first teamers and first team squad members who have left - and then compare with those who have arrived in the last 18 months. Draw your own conclusions; I've drawn mine.
Out:-
Gardner
Sidwell
Shorey
Milner
Carew
Freidel
NRC
Young
Downing
Davies
In:-
Bent
N'Zogbia (presumably)
Given
Makoun
Ireland
Promoted:-
Clark
Bannan
Delph
Delfouneso
Albrighton
So:-
Gardner = Bannan
Sidwell = Delph
Shorey = ????
Milner = Ireland
Carew = Bent
Freidel = Given
NRC = Makoun
Young = N'Zogbia
Downing = Albrighton
Davies = Clark
Apologies if I've forgotten anyone.
I'm a huge Milner fan, so him for Ireland does weaken us, and we also need that extra FB cover for Shorey, but all in all not overly weakened, IMO. Although not mentioned above, the aging of Petrov is another issue we need to address.
Costs had spiralled, mainly the wagebill, and needed to be brought back under control as continuing as we were was not an option.
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For what it's worth, this is the list I've been considering. Again, senior players leaving since Jan 2010, in terms of both bringing in transfer revenue and easing the strain on the wage bill. And senior players arriving in the same time frame.
Out: Friedel, Downing, Ashley Young, Reo-Coker, Kyle Walker (loan expired), Davies, Carew, Sidwell, Pires, Bradley (loan expired, permanent deal cancelled), Milner, Shorey, Bouma, Harewood, Craig Gardner, Salifou, Osbourne.
In: Given, N'Zogbia (pending), Bent, Makoun, Ireland, Walker (loan), Pires, Bradley (loan).
Obviously, I recognised the need for us to trim the fat from the squad, and I endorse that, and there's natural wastage and development of younger players to be considered also. But generally, I feel Villa have been reducing the squad, acting on the wage bill issue, and yet... I would have expected us to now be in a position to re-invest in the squad, at least by using all of the transfer fees generated. I'm not seeing that this summer.
Again, this is my view; if anyone interprets what's happening another way, fine. If you're happy with how Villa are moving forward, I'm happy for you. I'm not convinced there are good times ahead, to be honest. But I'll see as many positives as I can, and back the team and manager 100%, as always.
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You're entitled to your opinions, I haven't a problem with that, but you obviously have a problem with people expressing theirs though!
No, I don't at all, the point i was trying to make was that going on about "what do people expect" and "for all those constantly moaning" blah blah blah is patronising in the extreme.
Your point about "relegated before a ball is kicked" is one example, and the original poster's long ramble which seemed to be saying "if you're pessimistic, you're clearly not behind the team and manager" is an even better one.
I am massively uninspired by the managerial apppointment, I think the club is abysmally run, and I think the belief that getting one more signing in and relying on the kids is cause to think we can challenge for top four (see the General's last post on VT) is incredibly wishful thinking and more likely to end up with us as bottom four, but I fucking object to people suggesting I'm in some way "not supporting the manager" or not behind the team. I'll be there in my seat as usual next year, supporting the team, and giving the manager a chance to show I was totally wrong.
As I said, it is patronising guff - the old "better fan than you" argument dressed up in some nonsense about sitting tight, using the kids more and hoping lots of clubs go bust.
It's almost as if people have forgotten what happened last season when, due to injuries, we had to rely on the kids too much. It all went to shit. Except now there seems to be the implication that we should have an actual policy of doing precisely that.
If it is such an obvious good idea, why weren't these same people saying "hang on, no, I don't think we should be spending 40m on players this summer, I reckon we should be really prudent, sit tight and use the kids instead" when we were spending big money?
Madness.
Incidentally, where did this "divine right to top four" thing come from? I don't think I have ever seen a post which suggested someone thought we had that.
Regarding "Top 4 thing" you obviously don't go on the forums that I do, otherwise you'd know excactly what I'm on about!!
Regading my point of "relegated before a ball is kicked" I've read several posts on this site, as well as other saying "relegation material", " bottom 4" etc.
Regarding "patronising guff" as you put it, it's other peoples opinions!!
I would never claim to be a better fan than you or anyone else.
If someone wants to pay their money then sit and moan all game, that's up to them, f***ing sad if you ask me, but, how can that be classed as supporting the team?
I'm a petty objective supporter, if they play badly I'll say so, I won't make excuses and if they play well I'll say so too.
However badly they play, I will never boo the team.
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I think some people actually think that the crowd have an effect on the game.
15-20 years ago it probably did but the majority of footballers are millionaires and couldn't give a monkeys chuff.
Plus the acoustics at VP are shit. i sit in the north stand more often that not and it is very rarely that you can hear the Holte. I have also sat in the upper trinity inbetween the halfway line line and the Holte and struggled to hear.
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You're entitled to your opinions, I haven't a problem with that, but you obviously have a problem with people expressing theirs though!
No, I don't at all, the point i was trying to make was that going on about "what do people expect" and "for all those constantly moaning" blah blah blah is patronising in the extreme.
Your point about "relegated before a ball is kicked" is one example, and the original poster's long ramble which seemed to be saying "if you're pessimistic, you're clearly not behind the team and manager" is an even better one.
I am massively uninspired by the managerial apppointment, I think the club is abysmally run, and I think the belief that getting one more signing in and relying on the kids is cause to think we can challenge for top four (see the General's last post on VT) is incredibly wishful thinking and more likely to end up with us as bottom four, but I fucking object to people suggesting I'm in some way "not supporting the manager" or not behind the team. I'll be there in my seat as usual next year, supporting the team, and giving the manager a chance to show I was totally wrong.
As I said, it is patronising guff - the old "better fan than you" argument dressed up in some nonsense about sitting tight, using the kids more and hoping lots of clubs go bust.
It's almost as if people have forgotten what happened last season when, due to injuries, we had to rely on the kids too much. It all went to shit. Except now there seems to be the implication that we should have an actual policy of doing precisely that.
If it is such an obvious good idea, why weren't these same people saying "hang on, no, I don't think we should be spending 40m on players this summer, I reckon we should be really prudent, sit tight and use the kids instead" when we were spending big money?
Madness.
Incidentally, where did this "divine right to top four" thing come from? I don't think I have ever seen a post which suggested someone thought we had that.
I have introduced a new "post of the month" competition, and am pleased to report that you are the very first winner.
This is the second one of these long winded posts this week that seem designed just to get as many people as possible replying "great post!!!!!1111".
Drama Queens of the World Unite! (winky)
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It's almost as if people have forgotten what happened last season when, due to injuries, we had to rely on the kids too much. It all went to shit.
It wasn't the kids that let us down last season, it was the senior players.
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It's almost as if people have forgotten what happened last season when, due to injuries, we had to rely on the kids too much. It all went to shit.
It wasn't the kids that let us down last season, it was the senior players.
That bit is debatable, but what isn't is the fact we had an unprecedented injury crisis. When you imagine that the summer 2010 deals only meant our net loss on player numbers was one Nicky Shorey, then you can see that we had plenty numbers wise, but got hit with a crippling number being out at the same time. So the issue wasn't the kids playing, but all playign at once and often in positions they were unfamiliar with.
This season we can realistically expect a better injury record and also have the benefit of them being a year older and a year wiser thanks to last season.
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There's nothing wrong with being cautiously optimistic or holding a wait and see what happens attitude. At least that's where I stand. I don't think anybody should be blindly optimistic or being massively down in the dumps. I see AM as a project that will bring us stability firstly, and then steady year on year improvements. Was I impressed by the appointment - No. Have I been impressed with him so far? Well he hasn't done anything to disappoint me, and he seems to have galvanised the squad, and is on the verge of making his second very good signing.
The proof will be once the season starts. I certainly won't be shouting from any rooftops if it starts really well, but I certainly won't be jumping off them if we start less than impressively. I'll give him every chance to get the right balance. The season is a long one and a lot can change very quickly. In my opinion he deserves patience just by being Villa manager. The same that I'd offer anyone in his position. I'm sure it's not lost on him that his rope is a little shorter than most given the circumstances of his arrival.
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There's nothing wrong with being cautiously optimistic or holding a wait and see what happens attitude. At least that's where I stand. I don't think anybody should be blindly optimistic or being massively down in the dumps. I see AM as a project that will bring us stability firstly, and then steady year on year improvements. Was I impressed by the appointment - No. Have I been impressed with him so far? Well he hasn't done anything to disappoint me, and he seems to have galvanised the squad, and is on the verge of making his second very good signing.
The proof will be once the season starts. I certainly won't be shouting from any rooftops if it starts really well, but I certainly won't be jumping off them if we start less than impressively. I'll give him every chance to get the right balance. The season is a long one and a lot can change very quickly. In my opinion he deserves patience just by being Villa manager. The same that I'd offer anyone in his position. I'm sure it's not lost on him that his rope is a little shorter than most given the circumstances of his arrival.
Well said.
I actually was impressed with the AMcL appointment for the simple reason that it took massive balls to appoint him and even bigger balls for him to accept.
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It's almost as if people have forgotten what happened last season when, due to injuries, we had to rely on the kids too much. It all went to shit.
It wasn't the kids that let us down last season, it was the senior players.
The kids didn't let us down, you're right there - but they struggled when we asked too much of them.
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Regarding "patronising guff" as you put it, it's other peoples opinions!!
I would never claim to be a better fan than you or anyone else.
If someone wants to pay their money then sit and moan all game, that's up to them, f***ing sad if you ask me, but, how can that be classed as supporting the team?
I'm a petty objective supporter, if they play badly I'll say so, I won't make excuses and if they play well I'll say so too.
However badly they play, I will never boo the team.
I didn't say you would boo the team, my point was that assuming as the original poster seems to be that being pessimistic now means you're not fully behind the team once the season starts is wide of the mark.
That's the patronising thing I was referring to.
I've no idea what they're saying on other forums about us having a divine right to top four, I don't read other forums, why would anyone when all the clued up, non brain-dead cool kids are on here? *wink*
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It's almost as if people have forgotten what happened last season when, due to injuries, we had to rely on the kids too much. It all went to shit.
It wasn't the kids that let us down last season, it was the senior players.
That bit is debatable, but what isn't is the fact we had an unprecedented injury crisis. When you imagine that the summer 2010 deals only meant our net loss on player numbers was one Nicky Shorey, then you can see that we had plenty numbers wise, but got hit with a crippling number being out at the same time. So the issue wasn't the kids playing, but all playign at once and often in positions they were unfamiliar with.
Quite true - we started against Man United with Bannan and Hogg in the middle. They did pretty well in that game, but it's not really an ideal situation to have to rely on kids to that degree.
All clubs should be bringing their youth players on, but there's a pretty thin line between giving them the chance to flourish and relying on them too heavily.
It's a bit worrying that we're a number of bodies light on last year. I know many of the 10 released were unknowns, but some of them, such as NRC and Carew weren't. We've also sold two of our best players and seem to be replacing them with one player.
Meanwhile over on VT the general is talking about bringing in CNZ, using youth more and targetting the top four. I think that'd be both ridiculously over optimistic and dangerous.
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Meanwhile over on VT the general is talking about bringing in CNZ, using youth more and targetting the top four. I think that'd be both ridiculously over optimistic and dangerous.
It was a typo: he meant "targeting the bottom four"
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Regarding "patronising guff" as you put it, it's other peoples opinions!!
I would never claim to be a better fan than you or anyone else.
If someone wants to pay their money then sit and moan all game, that's up to them, f***ing sad if you ask me, but, how can that be classed as supporting the team?
I'm a petty objective supporter, if they play badly I'll say so, I won't make excuses and if they play well I'll say so too.
However badly they play, I will never boo the team.
I didn't say you would boo the team, my point was that assuming as the original poster seems to be that being pessimistic now means you're not fully behind the team once the season starts is wide of the mark.
That's the patronising thing I was referring to.
I've no idea what they're saying on other forums about us having a divine right to top four, I don't read other forums, why would anyone when all the clued up, non brain-dead cool kids are on here? *wink*
It was another poster who said that "They pay their money, so are entitled to Boo the team"
Sorry for the misunderstanding on that.
I just can't get my head around that sort of thing.
I am an optimistic supporter, but my head is not buried in the sand. Realisticly I can see us finishing in the 8th, 9th, 10th region, looking to kick on the season after.
Have to say that this is a better quality of forum though :D
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i'm optimistic about a lot of the players we have especially the younger ones who i'm hoping we'l see plenty of in the coming season. i'd certainly rather see some young player from the academy given a shot than some average joe, who's just looking for the best pay cheque
the big problem is that we have appointed a very defensive manager who plays boring football, thats not a myth its a fact, i'm not making it up,its what weve seen of him over the last few years,
theres no getting away from it we can put the old blinkers on if it makes us feel better, or just hope and pray he will 'change' but the bottom line is that he will probably revert to type when things get tough.
lets hope he proves us wrong, and we see some attractive football played, but history suggests it aint gona happen.
yes we will all get behind him,
i got behind MON at the beggining, and i hated his style of football, but at least it was more possitive than AM's
so we can get behind and support the team and manager, but if you appoint the most negative manager in the prem, theres a good chance thats the sort of football we are going to get, you know the saying 'if it looks like fish and smells like fish, it probably is fish'
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i'm optimistic about a lot of the players we have especially the younger ones who i'm hoping we'l see plenty of in the coming season. i'd certainly rather see some young player from the academy given a shot than some average joe, who's just looking for the best pay cheque
the big problem is that we have appointed a very defensive manager who plays boring football, thats not a myth its a fact, i'm not making it up,its what weve seen of him over the last few years,
theres no getting away from it we can put the old blinkers on if it makes us feel better, or just hope and pray he will 'change' but the bottom line is that he will probably revert to type when things get tough.
lets hope he proves us wrong, and we see some attractive football played, but history suggests it aint gona happen.
yes we will all get behind him,
i got behind MON at the beggining, and i hated his style of football, but at least it was more possitive than AM's
so we can get behind and support the team and manager, but if you appoint the most negative manager in the prem, theres a good chance thats the sort of football we are going to get, you know the saying 'if it looks like fish and smells like fish, it probably is fish'
I understand the recent reputation, but it's also what he had to deal with at the shit that influenced the way he played. He didn't always have his teams play that way in Scotland, and he certainly didn't tell his team to defend first in the game vs Walsall. Yes, yes, I know it's Walsall, but if he was going to employ his defence only strategy we'd have seen some signs of it there. In fact, having watched the entire game, we attacked almost constantly. While that strategy won't be the same in the PL, it didn't indicate to me that he has started to instill a radical defensive mindset at the club.
We'll learn more over the next couple of friendlies as to how he's setting us up to play. It will be interesting if we make it the Chelsea game if he really gives it a go. I just happen to think that given the better weapons, especially Ireland, Bent, Gabby, N'Zogbia, Albrighton he'll want to use their attacking skills as much as possible.
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i'm optimistic about a lot of the players we have especially the younger ones who i'm hoping we'l see plenty of in the coming season. i'd certainly rather see some young player from the academy given a shot than some average joe, who's just looking for the best pay cheque
the big problem is that we have appointed a very defensive manager who plays boring football, thats not a myth its a fact, i'm not making it up,its what weve seen of him over the last few years,
theres no getting away from it we can put the old blinkers on if it makes us feel better, or just hope and pray he will 'change' but the bottom line is that he will probably revert to type when things get tough.
lets hope he proves us wrong, and we see some attractive football played, but history suggests it aint gona happen.
yes we will all get behind him,
i got behind MON at the beggining, and i hated his style of football, but at least it was more possitive than AM's
so we can get behind and support the team and manager, but if you appoint the most negative manager in the prem, theres a good chance thats the sort of football we are going to get, you know the saying 'if it looks like fish and smells like fish, it probably is fish'
I understand the recent reputation, but it's also what he had to deal with at the shit that influenced the way he played. He didn't always have his teams play that way in Scotland, and he certainly didn't tell his team to defend first in the game vs Walsall. Yes, yes, I know it's Walsall, but if he was going to employ his defence only strategy we'd have seen some signs of it there. In fact, having watched the entire game, we attacked almost constantly. While that strategy won't be the same in the PL, it didn't indicate to me that he has started to instill a radical defensive mindset at the club.
We'll learn more over the next couple of friendlies as to how he's setting us up to play. It will be interesting if we make it the Chelsea game if he really gives it a go. I just happen to think that given the better weapons, especially Ireland, Bent, Gabby, N'Zogbia, Albrighton he'll want to use their attacking skills as much as possible.
thats what i mean, we can all build a case, but if that style of football is the mans DNA it wont change
i saw Big Sams Blackburn have some exceptional talented footballers, ones who had entertained right round the world, but when you watched Blackburn play, it was in the style of big Sam, ie absolute shite, didnt matter what sort of players he had, they still wernt worth watching appart from a couple of games a season,
its not up to us to say 'come on lets get up and support the lads ' thats pretty much a given, its up to AM to give us something to shout about, yes there is a lot of doubt about AM, but he's the only one that can do something about it.
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I'm neither optimistic nor pessimistic about this season, I'm intrigued.
Intrigued to see how McLeish performs, how the disaffected players from last season rehabilitate, which of the youngsters makes the step up, what Makoun and N'Zogbia have to offer, what direction the board go in and how the fans react to it all.
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I'm neither optimistic nor pessimistic about this season, I'm intrigued.
Intrigued to see how McLeish performs, how the disaffected players from last season rehabilitate, which of the youngsters makes the step up, what Makoun and N'Zogbia have to offer, what direction the board go in and how the fans react to it all.
yes , i agree, its a good word intrigued.
i dont think since AM has been with us he has done anything wrong at all, quite the opposite in fact, he has come over extremley well and obviously wants to be here,
but we all support Villa for one thing, football, and thats where he has a bit of convincing to do, well with me anyroad, but certainly a good start so far
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Griffster. Thanks for taking the time and making the effort to write your post. It was interesting.
Don't be downhearted if the Villa Trolls attack your positive post with one or two lines of dismissive bile. Look with pity upon them. I think half of them got lost on the way to St Andrews sometime during the 1980's and some never let a fact or a figure get in the way of an opinion.
I enjoyed your post - but then again I would - because I too think getting behind a team is always better than getting on top of one.
UTV.
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I'm perfectly positive about the new season and am looking forward to it immensely but is there really any need for this smug self-righteousness?
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Clearly Dave, if you're not cracking out the bunting and generating faux American-style atmosphere on matchdays - regardless of what's actually going on on the pitch -you're probably a troll.
If you have major misgivings about recent events and decisions and think this will inevitably spill over into the forthcoming campaign - you're probably a troll -and maybe a bluenose too.
In fact, even if you're cautiously optimistic (like me) or prepared to see how events unfold before making any drastic conclusions (like Chris) you probably don't qualify for the Super Fans Best of the Best club either. It's an elite clientele, clearly.
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I'm also cautiously optimistic. I usually am at this time of year regardless of who is manager and what's gone on over the summer.
This can often be drained out of me by 5pm on the first day of the season though.
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I'm also cautiously optimistic. I usually am at this time of year regardless of who is manager and what's gone on over the summer.
This can often be drained out of me by 5pm on the first day of the season though.
Yup
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Clearly Dave, if you're not cracking out the bunting and generating faux American-style atmosphere on matchdays - regardless of what's actually going on on the pitch -you're probably a troll.
Worse than that, you're actually probably a nose.
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I'm also cautiously optimistic. I usually am at this time of year regardless of who is manager and what's gone on over the summer.
This can often be drained out of me by 5pm on the first day of the season though.
Based on the two most likely first purchases -and the wages they'll command- it doesn't say to me that we're done competing.
I'm curious -or to use Smudger's word- intrigued to see how they knit together with the likes of Ireland (if he sorts it out) Albrighton and maybe even Bannan. Recent history tells us not to lionise our young players too early, but if just one of those goes on to have a big impact for us next season, we won't miss the creative impact of Ash and Downing as much.
Makoun with a full pre season under his belt an the possibility of a Parker or Dann adding to what we already possess would put us in a far healthier position than plenty of clubs in our self same 'best of the rest' category. At least from a squad point of view.
As for McLeish, my head agrees with john e but my heart says maybe this is just the break he needs. I think back to Brian Little's Leicester early 90's. They were far from a fluid, entertaining side too. But when Sir Bri had better resources and better players to operate with at VP he was able to rise to the occasion and fashion a busy, attractive unit.
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Griffster. Thanks for taking the time and making the effort to write your post. It was interesting.
Don't be downhearted if the Villa Trolls attack your positive post with one or two lines of dismissive bile. Look with pity upon them. I think half of them got lost on the way to St Andrews sometime during the 1980's and some never let a fact or a figure get in the way of an opinion.
I enjoyed your post - but then again I would - because I too think getting behind a team is always better than getting on top of one.
UTV.
Thankyou Sonlyme , for some sanity , I could,nt put it better myself . A thoroughly well written and thought out piece , Griffster , Bravo...I,m with you 100% + ! ....................Godzvilla!
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I enjoyed your post - but then again I would - because I too think getting behind a team is always better than getting on top of one.
Personally, I think getting on top of any the American Football Lingerie teams would be better than pretty much anything.