Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: sonlyme on July 21, 2011, 02:32:52 PM
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Oh dear oh dear oh dear. Whatever next? Villa it seems are a selling club with no ambition, no money, and no future. Sack the board say some. That Lerner must go say others - that Faulkener is a fool says someone else - and as for that man in the manager's office? Pfft!
I wasn't going to renew my season ticket - but I might - just so as I can set light to it and throw it at that ginger muppet the first game we lose... as long as there's cameras at the game... etc etc.
There are lots of folk throwing numbers about for some reason. 24 million is a popular one. Closely followed by 20 and 16 million. The current favourites are 9 and 10 million – with Mr Lerner preferring the 9 and Mr Whelan preferring the 10.
But numbers schnumbers. The only number Mr L is concerned with is this one – 38 million – that is roughly what the football club lost in pounds sterling last year. And as losing money is not a good thing in business – he wants to change it.
(http://img.skysports.com/07/08/218x298/lerner_555436.jpg)
Mr Meanie-Tightwad. Won't even buy a razor.
And this is making some people very unhappy. Hence some half-witted calls for him to go. Probably from the same crowd who called for GH to go too – well you got your wish bed sheet painters and let me say thank you for your efforts and how much better we must all feel now.
However Villa fans are not the only contrary lot who fill internet message boards with partisan tripe about 'who's da best' etc etc - you haven't seen the incessant bickering between the Rednoses of L8 and the Rednoses of Surrey (er sorry ... Salford?) over the 'who got the best player' from Villa.
Man Utd's varied fanbase scoff at Kenny D's decision to pay £20 large for Stewie D. While the scousers ridicule old Sir Alex for paying £16 mil for diving Ashley as he only had a year left on his contract.
They then go into a long and tedious tit for tat spat where the relative merits of one is lauded over the deficiencies of the other.
As a Villain of long standing - I wish both men well (ish) - they came to VP and they did their bit - and yes, now they are gone - but at least they left us with some financial recompense - so onward and upward say I not boo hoo hoo.
As to who is better? Can you honestly say? I can't. Having watched a Villa team that only had wingplay and counter-attack in their tactics box I find it impossible.
What I do know is that I learnt to temper my early excitement when one or the other finally managed to outwit their opposing full-back, as far too often the resulting ball into the box was high or wide. And if no pass or cross was attempted then that would mean a go at a 'spectacular' - a shot of outlandish audacity - a few of which occasionally came off - as with Stewie's blast against Liverpool on the last day of the season....mmm?
And as for Darren Bent being 'gutted' at the loss of the two I say, wait Darren, and see. Young Mr Albrighton will find you many more times from out wide. So instead of watching a ball sail harmlessly over the crossbar from the quiet acre of solitude your instinct always seems to find in the opposition's box - you may well be stepping forward to meet an accurate crossed ball - oh happy days will be here again - or at least they could be - in my humble opinion.
And that's just it. We all have opinions and this interweb thingy is built on providing platform for said opinions - but facts is facts - as Damien Comoli of LFC might say and I would like to reference the facts and figures Mr Comoli used to justify his opinion that spending £20 million on Stewie D was a mere snip - a bagatelle.
Comoli is an actuary among football men - he is more bean counter than coach - and he asserts that having looked at Stewie's stats - they have got a bargain. Fair enough - but here are the stats quoted in a Mirror article:-
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Liverpool-news-Stewart-Downing-one-of-most-under-rated-players-in-league-says-Damien-Comolli-article772513.html
(http://www.darryljon.dsl.pipex.com/stewartdowning1.jpg)
I'm full of ambition me. At least an extra 30k a weeks worth.
DELIVERIES
Cross Corner
Baines 351 100
Jarvis 345 69
Downing 324 79
Barton 312 90
Nani 294 75
Mmm? So Stewie made 324 crosses did he - and took 79 corners - but what kind of crosses were they - what kind of corners...?
ASSISTS
Nani 14
Drogba 13
Baines 11
Arshavin 11
Rooney 11
Fabregas 11
Young 10
Brunt 9
Barton 9
Adam 8
Pennant 8
Van der Vaart 8
Downing 7
Mmm? There he is – right at the bottom – with 7 – looks good until you realise that he has tried 324 crosses and 79 corners to get them. That’s one assist for every 57.57 attempts. Let's put that in percentage terms - that's a cross to goal success rate of 0.0173 which to you and me is a success rate of 1.7%. One point seven percent successful.
Is that worth £20million?
But maybe I'm being unfair, maybe in the middle of a recession as I struggle to find the dollar to put good tyres on my car I find all this hullabaloo, these shenanigans, and the endless millions on offer a touch crass - a touch bling - a touch out of touch?
Perhaps I'm letting my own troubles cloud the picture? So let's look at Stewie's overalll picture for the 2010 - 2011 season.
Starts 38
Minutes On Pitch 3,387
Goals 7
Shots On Target 26
Shots Off Target 36
Assists 7
Passes 1,487
Pass Completion % 78
Crosses 324
Cross Completion % 24
Tackles Made 38
Tackles Won % 74
So here is it - here must lie Mr Comoli's secret data - the data that tells him he's spent someone else's money wisely. I mean look at those figures. 24% of crosses attempted were completed. Superb! Surely? But what does it mean? Does it mean the ball found a Villa shirt - or is it enough if it simply remained in play? The killing figure remains that assists stat - just 7.
But wait you may say - he made 1487 passes and 78% of them were completed. 78%! Surely that alone is worth £10 million? Yet sadly - anyone who has watched Villa will know that the vast majority of these passes will have been short taps to the full back or little prods inside allowing him to run freely towards the oppositions half in the hope of finding space enough to put one of his deadly crosses in - well one of the 1.7% anyway.
But wait again - look at that tackling - the man's a lion - 74% of tackles he's gone into he's won. What have we done? We've let the greatest midfield destroyer since Patrick Viera slip through our fingers!!!! Oh - 74% won from 38 made - what does that mean - 38 a game? No - it does not - it is a season’s grand total. So that is 38 tackles attempted in 38 games - I won't bother putting that into percentage terms for you then.
So for all the hype - for all the bluster - what have we lost and what have we gained? Granted I haven’t included Ashley’s stats here but surely they won’t be much different?
We’ve sold two players who were at the top of our wage structure and who have gone on to other clubs who will pay them far more than we could. If a player talks of ambition – he’s wanting more money at another club – if he talks of Champions League – he wants more money at a top 4 club (whoever they may be). It is a money game.
We sold a player to a Liverpool Club who have more money than us. And we sold another to a Manchester Club who also have more money than us. And then we’ll pick up quality surplus from richer clubs and poach younger star potential from other clubs who don’t have as much money as us. It is simple really.
And have another look at those stats. How much Barton then? Or Brunt, or Jarvis ? Or my own favourite – Leighton Baines? There is skill and talent and value to be found out there and that is the reality we live in – but it’s not the end of the world.
Here’s one league table that should make this clear – it is the Deloitte Football Money League and it details the top twenty clubs in terms of income – in Europe. And there’s good news – we are on it.
(http://cdn.caughtoffside.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Rich.jpg)
http://fsarena.co.uk/?p=2022 (http://fsarena.co.uk/?p=2022)
20th position in the table that really matters. We’ve always sold players – and we’ve always bought them – what we need to become better at now is producing them.
We have seen the slow emergence of our excellent youth and anyone who has taken the time to visit Bodymoor Heath will realise that Mr Lerner has spent big on creating the right conditions for talent to grow.
He may not be a Sheikh or a Russian Gas Guzzler spunking other peoples money – he spends his own money and he has outlined a vision – and it is one in which Aston Villa will produce more of its own playing staff and give the youth a chance. His manager’s job is to get the playing staff at the club motivated, fit, and fully prepared for each match. There will be money for key signings – like Darren Bent – but Villa’s infrastructure needs to be producing more – and the manager’s will have to take flak and take risks to bring that policy forward.
Steve Davis – Craig Gardner – Gary Cahill – talent lost because they weren’t given a chance by managers pressurised by results– and subsequently sold for a pittance and blossomed elsewhere.
It may be disheartening to watch others wheel and deal and play fantasy football with unreal money but we aren’t like that – and I think that should make us prouder to be Villa fans – we actually produce good players - good English ones at that. We don’t just go out and buy whatever we want – we have to work at it.
I can’t wait to see how the lads who battered the mighty Man Utd last year have come on. Delfouneso and Albrighton and Clark and Bannan. I can’t wait to see young Gary Gardner make his premiership bow.
And alright – we’re not the richest club in the world – we’re not owned by some fossil fuel oligarch who thinks spending the wealth of a nation on a football club is alright - we’re from the West Midlands – where stuff gets made – and people work hard for what they get – and folk have to live within a budget yet still manage to do great things. I think we need to take a bit more pride in what and who we are and the way that we do it.
Yes we are a selling club – and yes we are also a buying club. Yes we have money – and we have ambition – and we have a future – but it won’t be helped by getting on the side’s back – or the manager’s back – or the owner’s back – when things do not go our way.
That is the behaviour of spoilt brats who think they can buy whatever they want in life – and for a time this can be true. But the end, the important things are beyond money – they are priceless, they are precious, and they take effort.
So let’s be proud about who and what we are. We are not wankers – we are Aston Villa.
UTV.
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Great post.
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Well said.
Up the Villa !
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Applauds
Well said
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What a great post. I feel better already.
Now where is that season ticket brochure...
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Applause.
Great post.
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Great post.
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Fantastic Post
UTV
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Almost brought a tear to my eye. Having said that I am still a bit emotional after the golf on Sunday.
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Just one (very long) excuse for Randy giving O'Neill far more money to spend on rubbish players than he should have, and trying to dress it up as an admirable belief in our youth system being the answer to our problems. We've had decent youth sides before, and when the one containing the Moore brothers won the youth cup, people were over-optimistically claiming that Luke Moore was better than Wayne Rooney. We do produce some good young players, but they're not world beaters, and putting all our faith in them as the way forward is asking far too much of them.
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Looking round the premiership there are already a few products of our youth system.
Cahill 10-15m
Gardner 6m
Gabby 10m
Albrighton 5m
Myhill 1m
That's £30m+ of talent there. We have to start trusting your youth set up so it is villa that benefits from these players and not others. If we do that then there will be more money for signings like bent and less money spent on squad fillers.
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Looking round the premiership there are already a few products of our youth system.
Cahill 10-15m
Gardner 6m
Gabby 10m
Albrighton 5m
Myhill 1m
You could say the same for most teams in the Premier League I'm sure. Sunderland and Blackburn have just sold two of theirs for £20m each.
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I'd argue that the fact that they got £20m for them though is that they gave them a chance in the first team. Certainly under MON there appeared to be a reluctance to use young players preferring instead to have experienced players (invariably on higher wages) as squad players.
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You could say the same for most teams in the Premier League I'm sure. Sunderland and Blackburn have just sold two of theirs for £20m each.
But aren't both sides 'one hot wonders' in terms of producing from their academies? We seem to be able to produce a couple of PL standard players a year lately, going back to Vassell, Samuel, Barry, Hendrie, etc.
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Yes. Yes. No.
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Great post. Do you work in PR? If the day job doesn't work out I would suggest you give it a shot!
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Absolutely superb post sir! Gave me goosebumps!
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Re the tackling stats I'd love to know what qualifies as a "tackle", because I can hardly recall Stewie no-balls making any kind of challenge that resembled a good old fashioned tackle.
The investment in the youth set-up is fine but Villa have tended to produce good youth teams rather than exceptional youth players. The model should be academies like Ajax and Barca where the emphasis seems to be on technique and developing individual talent. Which is one reason I was sorry to see GH go, as I think he would have encouraged that kind of approach.
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Well constructed post.
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Thanks everyone for reading and responding.
Just one (very long) excuse for Randy giving O'Neill far more money to spend on rubbish players than he should have, and trying to dress it up as an admirable belief in our youth system being the answer to our problems. We've had decent youth sides before, and when the one containing the Moore brothers won the youth cup, people were over-optimistically claiming that Luke Moore was better than Wayne Rooney. We do produce some good young players, but they're not world beaters, and putting all our faith in them as the way forward is asking far too much of them.
The original post was my personal response to the great wail of whinging that has again arisen online concerning Aston Villa FC. I write because I cannot believe that some folk are calling for the board to go. Calling Randy Lerner tight and in it 'for himself'. Have I missed something? Is Ron Bendall back? Has Douglas Herbert risen again?
The OP is not an excuse - it is an analysis of where we are - and where we are is not that bad - even if we aren't bidding for Tevez or seeking to poach Cesc with a 'mind-blowing' offer. Fair enough to differ in opinion - but if we're going to debate it let's stick to facts.
We are where we are were we are.
And so - I think Mr L - a footballing virgin remember - a billionaire with a lion rampant tattooed on his ankle - wants only the best for the club - but the club needs to be balanced. sustainable and have a plan to move forward as the only other way is to throw money at it (hence my post). It is not an excuse to want to develop more youth - it is a policy. A policy born of financial realism.
Yes, we have had 'promising' youth before - but as others have said, they were luck of the draw finds - we had no system and no infrastructure and no policy in place. Now we have all of them and a state of the art youth academy alongside the first teams training facilities. And those facilities are world class. That's world class. And all paid for by Mr L.
We now have permanent coaching staff who remains at the club whoever is first team boss - no more walking out or getting fired and taking the support staff with you. No more complete changes in philosophy ever time a manager spits his dummy or gets the boot. This is progress.
Poor old Randy bought MON's "I'm in total charge of everything" sales pitch, hook line and sinker. As did I - because that was the way successful managers used to do it - big names like Shankly - Paisley - and latterly Ferguson. I was suckered too - because all I wanted was some glory days back at Villa Park. I wanted them so much I ignored the defensive counter-attacking style because by and large it worked - keep it tight and wait for a mistake won games against other average teams - it won games right up until we faced teams of quality and purpose - and then we'd fall.
MON had always succeeded before on shoe-string budgets controlled by tightwad owners - what has become apparent after his Villa years is that he plainly had no comprehension of how to deal with the financial reality of running a football club. He is - to use the lexicon of the message board - a fiscal fool.
And yes - Randy Lerner was a fool too - for buying it. But Randy was a football virgin - and he has learned something here - hence Mr Faulkener - hence a policy - note, a policy not an excuse - a policy based on reality - a policy re-stated clearly when MON walked out - with Randy stating "there have been no changes in our approach to building the club, aiming always to be as competitive as possible given our size and resources."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/aug/11/randy-lerner-aston-villa-oneill (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/aug/11/randy-lerner-aston-villa-oneill)
How can anyone think Mr L needs an excuse not to spend? Does £24million ring any bells? The Guardian reports he has spent £200million on our club so far. Hardly Deadly Doug is he?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/mar/01/aston-villa-randy-lerner-accounts (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/mar/01/aston-villa-randy-lerner-accounts)
Randy was guilty of bad judgement - but as they say - good judgement comes from experience - experience comes through bad judgement.
Yes - we may well have to cut our cloth accordingly but I think there is virtue in that. In a world of plastic allegiances and clubs trying to become brands I think it could be something to set us apart. In much the same way the Acorns thing did. There is a chance here were we can lead the way for once - and alright - a route to instant success it is not - but we've tried the spending hundreds of millions route - and what a bag of shite that turned out to be.
To want more spending is the childish response to the childish urge to feel like a winner. Hence the number of ManU and Chelski shirts you see around Birmingham - they've all got a good reason of course - their uncle used to clean the toilets at Old Trafford - or they fell in love the day they saw "Chopper Osgood and Peter Harris" play (honest) . How long before we begin to see Man Citeh shirts as well - cos 'Franny Lee once got in the same lift as me mam and farted'.
The transfer window has turned into a version of 'The Only Way is Essex' - but should be retitled 'The Only Way is Excess'. With faces paraded and ridiculous numbers quoted, with You Tube compilations and insider rumours (yeah, right) and players smiling and talking of ambition, or threatening to leave before getting that 240k a week deal. 240k a week! And in between all the posturing and the twittering comes the Disasters Emergency Committee asking me for a couple a quid to help some little kids who are dying because they haven't got any water or food. Water and food for christ'sake.
My point is - f**k'em. If we can't buy 'em off the shelf for 40 million - or pay them all 200k a week - f**k'em - we'll make some of our own. That's my point -- and maybe if they all grow up together and come through together they will stick together and be great together. I know it's madness and never been done but I think it could work. Unless of course it is true - you can win nothing with kids?
(http://indonewyork.net/uploads_user/1000/91/5530.jpg)
You say it is asking too much of them to play in the premier league. Sorry - if you're good enough you are old enough. Besides, what's the alternative? A stream of second rate Carlos Kickaballs sucking million upon million out of the club and the country? That's what we've been doing for the last twenty years. I would prefer a team of local lads with spirit and talent and drive? And I think you prejudge them saying they are not worldbeaters - only time will tell us that. I think they can become world beaters - and I hope they do too - otherwise they never will be.
(http://www.avfc.co.uk/javaImages/2f/44/0,,10265~5915695,00.jpg)
It may mean not competing for that exciting sixth place that so many think important (it's worth £2.6 million extra over 9th place) - it may mean taking a thumping now and again - but they will only get stronger and better and lets be honest - we're not putting all our faith in kids are we? Is Darren Bent an unproven youngster? Is Super Shay Given a nervous callow youth? Petrov, Ireland, Dunne, Collins, Warnock, Agbonlahor, et al, these are all international class players. Form is temporary - while class is permanent. I think a few of these senior pros will recover their form under old gingernut - and so they should - they owe us after last season.
(http://www.avfc.co.uk/javaImages/7b/c7/0,,10265~3655547,00.jpg)
The question it seems remains. Are we are wankers? - Or are we Aston Villa?
I am not a pr person (though I'll listen to offers!) and have no link whatsoever with Mr L or the club - I'm just a fan like everyone else.
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Very cool essays! The terms wanker and Aston Villa should never be used in the same sentence! Like any sports team we have our ups and downs. Yesterday I was very impressed with Ireland (I never thought I would ever say that). I wonder if Shay Given's presence is helping to mentor him? If Ireland returns to his form of three years ago - he will be a big asset. McLeish needs to do what it takes to keep Ireland on his game. Some of his passes (e.g. leading to Bent's goal) were magnificent. Ireland, Macoun, Bent and Albrighton need to develop chemistry. I think that all we need now is a top shelf attacking winger.
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I say we should petition the club to make "We are not wankers, we are Aston Villa" our new club motto.
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Just one (very long) excuse for Randy giving O'Neill far more money to spend on rubbish players than he should have
There is a fair bet that Randy is regretting this now, but that post was more about how we move forward isn't it?
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Just one (very long) excuse for Randy giving O'Neill far more money to spend on rubbish players than he should have
There is a fair bet that Randy is regretting this now, but that post was more about how we move forward isn't it?
That's not allowed, there's still a whole load of bitching and whining to do before we kick a ball in anger.
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Great, great post.
Thank you.
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Interestingly, I wrote something of a similar theme - albeit without the analytical rigour of Sonlyme here - recently; again, in response to what I saw as the unreasonable expectations of some here.
Feel free to read (http://bit.ly/n8wp6R (http://bit.ly/n8wp6R)) and give feedback / opinion ... opinion is what football is all about, amongst many other things.
Great work, Sonlyme, and difficult to argue with your conclusions.
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The OP is not an excuse - it is an analysis of where we are - and where we are is not that bad - even if we aren't bidding for Tevez or seeking to poach Cesc with a 'mind-blowing' offer. Fair enough to differ in opinion - but if we're going to debate it let's stick to facts.
You mention 'facts' just after using Tevez and Fabregas as ludicrously overblown examples to make a point. I don't think anybody ever expected us to sign players of the calibre of those two, but replacing the two England wingers we've sold should be possible without having to spend £40m on one player.
To want more spending is the childish response to the childish urge to feel like a winner.
Again, you mention Chelsea and Man U levels of spending, which is ridiculous. I just want to see enough spent, and channeled in the right direction to make us competitive again.
My point is - f**k'em. If we can't buy 'em off the shelf for 40 million - or pay them all 200k a week - f**k'em - we'll make some of our own.
More hyperbole.
That's my point -- and maybe if they all grow up together and come through together they will stick together and be great together. I know it's madness and never been done but I think it could work. Unless of course it is true - you can win nothing with kids?
If you're expecting our younger players to get even close to emulating the likes of Neville, Beckham and Scholes, three of the best players to have played for the best Premier League team, you are going to be sorely disappointed.
You say it is asking too much of them to play in the premier league.
No I didn't say that at all, maybe if you spent as much time reading posts as you do compiling your pompous Blackwellian epics, then you'd understand. I said it was a mistake to put all our faith in them, and I stand by that, unless you expect Marc Albrighton to be able to play at the same level that Young consistently has for a whole season. I'm all for giving youth a chance, but not putting all of our eggs in the one basket marked "cost cutting".
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Risso - I think we need to agree to disagree. As my cup is half full and yours is half empty. Whatever the facts and figures - the rights and wrongs - I think we go forward better if we are positive and optimistic - in all aspects of life - not just professional football.
I will say no more.
Thank you.
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Risso - I think we need to agree to disagree. As my cup is half full and yours is half empty. Whatever the facts and figures - the rights and wrongs - I think we go forward better if we are positive and optimistic - in all aspects of life - not just professional football.
I will say no more.
Thank you.
I think you progress in life and business if you know what you are doing and have a clearly defined goal and a plan to achieve that goal. I do not believe that Randy knows what he's doing, nor that he has a plan that stretches beyond cutting costs, probably in preparation for a sale of the club to recoup his investment at some point in time not too distant from now, be it six months or two years.
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Sonlyme,
Please post more often. Not everyone will agree - clearly - but your posts are well thought out and interesting to read (I'd guess) regardless of ones perspective.
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Risso - I understand now - you honestly think Randy Lerner doesn't know what he is doing - fair enough mate - but I can't agree with you. Cheers.
Dante - bless you.
Do you think the Divine Comedy could fit one more circle into the descent into hell? Football message boards perhaps?
Perhaps every online forum could carry the header - "'Abandon all hope, all ye who enter here.'"
Scratch that - they'd get sued - Carson Yeung has copyrighted said phrase for St Andrew's.
UTV
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Just one (very long) excuse for Randy giving O'Neill far more money to spend on rubbish players than he should have
There is a fair bet that Randy is regretting this now, but that post was more about how we move forward isn't it?
we spent an average of £20m a season during Randy's first 4 seasons. We've recouped 75% of that with sale of the 3 most expensive players bought during that period. He hasn't got much to complain about in relation to transfer fees invested in the squad.
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Hello Dawg
Love the signature - "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."
How do you arrive at those figures? £80 000 000 out and £60 000 000 in - for a net spend of £20million.
I can find no source that concurs.
For a good read on Villa finances try this... http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/mar/01/aston-villa-randy-lerner-accounts (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/mar/01/aston-villa-randy-lerner-accounts)
Or this... http://swissramble.blogspot.com/search/label/Aston%20Villa (http://swissramble.blogspot.com/search/label/Aston%20Villa)
A tad out of date but Swiss Ramble remains one of the most interesting sites on football finance the web has to offer.
I'm not seeking to argue with you - I just think there is a lot of misinformation circling our club, and I agree with you - arguments based on facts and figures are the only way we can move forward as a fanbase - otherwise it's all opinion only - and tends to go round and round.
Maybe one of the more reliable mods could sticky and lock a verified facts and figures thread? This could cut down on a lot of the crossed wires and heat that builds up in these discussions.
What has become clear is that some people still regard Mr L as suspect. A bit dodgy. I find that hard to understand myself. Maybe I'm missing something.
UTV.
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Sorry, we have no reliable mods on here. Anyway there are rather a lot of stickies at the moment.
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The swissramble is a great blog (if long). He uses a number of examples from abroad saying that the best clubs (who do not have massive fanbases) continually sell their best player and grow from that income. Lyon and Porto are two example that he writes about in detail iirc.
The problem with Villa at the moment is that they haven't reinvested the money.
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Hello Dawg
Love the signature - "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."
How do you arrive at those figures? £80 000 000 out and £60 000 000 in - for a net spend of £20million.
I can find no source that concurs.
For a good read on Villa finances try this... http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/mar/01/aston-villa-randy-lerner-accounts (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/mar/01/aston-villa-randy-lerner-accounts)
Or this... http://swissramble.blogspot.com/search/label/Aston%20Villa (http://swissramble.blogspot.com/search/label/Aston%20Villa)
A tad out of date but Swiss Ramble remains one of the most interesting sites on football finance the web has to offer.
I'm not seeking to argue with you - I just think there is a lot of misinformation circling our club, and I agree with you - arguments based on facts and figures are the only way we can move forward as a fanbase - otherwise it's all opinion only - and tends to go round and round.
Maybe one of the more reliable mods could sticky and lock a verified facts and figures thread? This could cut down on a lot of the crossed wires and heat that builds up in these discussions.
What has become clear is that some people still regard Mr L as suspect. A bit dodgy. I find that hard to understand myself. Maybe I'm missing something.
UTV.
I arrived at the £80m figure by adding up the published transfer fees for players we bought and sold.
I agree that Swiss Ramble is an excellent blogger and very knowledgeable. That article (Apr 2010) estimates our net transfer spend at "around £85m" (I think the Gardner sale was not included in his figures), so he more or less agrees on the net spend figure. As you know, we've since sold Milner (£26m), Young(£17m) and Downing(£20m) for a total of £63m or approx.
That doesn't equate to a net spend of £20m (I wasn't suggesting it did) as it doesn't account for Ireland (£8m), Bent(£18m), Makoun(£5m) and Given(£3m). The net transfer spend since he took over currently stands at approx. £50m if you add in the Shorey, Sidwell and Davies sales, which is nothing special for a club with revenues of £90m per year, the 20th highest in Europe.
I don't think Lerner is dodgy. He's a businessman and he's a businessman who has placed £100m of debt on the clubs books and charged the club £12.2m in one years management fees and interest payments.
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... in preparation for a sale of the club to recoup his investment at some point in time not too distant from now, be it six months or two years.
I think that's a misjudgement of RAL's objectives, albeit I have only my opinion to back that (as you have yours). I think that RAL is gambling on the gradual re-balancing of the European football market for player-prices and salaries, partially as a result of FFD and partially because of Platini's perceived strong UEFA leadership.
I think RAL's faith in this is a little misplaced, but nonetheless it says to me that he is indeed in for the long term. That does not mean, however, that he will be shooting for the stars - as many thought he would be doing ad infiinitum.
Whilst I'm on a roll, I think he'll back McL; either in this window or in others. I think what's holding up the transfers right now is the lack of market activity generally and a belief by McL that he has players in the squad that can do the job for next season. The current close-season tournies will shake out both McL's thinking and the current market lethargy.
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The swissramble is a great blog (if long). He uses a number of examples from abroad saying that the best clubs (who do not have massive fanbases) continually sell their best player and grow from that income. Lyon and Porto are two example that he writes about in detail iirc.
The problem with Villa at the moment is that they haven't reinvested the money.
Lyon and Porto are able to attract the very best youth players in their respective nations, same as Ajax. We're not in the same situation and can't rely on the same model.
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We are neither.
We are a business.
We have signed big name players and sold them, we have signed shite players and sold them. we have improved the ground and training facilities and paid big money along the way.
We have devolped the youth team and put them on 4-5 year contracts, Delboy, Bannan, Albrighton. If they come good we can earn big transfer fees for them.
The ticket prices have increased and the TV revenues have goe through the roof.
The only way to achieve anything in this league is to spend millions and millions on BIG name players. The big names sell shirts and merchandise and attract the media to the games each week.
Deadly Doug ran it as a business and so is Lerner. O'neil probably wanted another 50-100 million worth of players to getus to the top 4 but lerner was reluctant to give him anymore money. Fair enough.
Man Utd can do it because of the revenue they bring in, Chelsea and Man City can because of the billionaire owners and Liverpool and spurs have borrowed millions to do it, relying on the champions league to pay off the loans.
Its ok spending 24m on Bent, but having to sell Youngy and Downing to fund it is the position we are in.
We are a mid to top half team who are probably up there with the best of the rest, but until we can pay 30 milliion and 100k a week for each player thats where we will stay. Nothing wrong with that.
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My point is - f**k'em. If we can't buy 'em off the shelf for 40 million - or pay them all 200k a week - f**k'em - we'll make some of our own.
More hyperbole.
Just like your "everything is shit, woe is me and we're sure to go down" back catalogue then.
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The swissramble is a great blog (if long). He uses a number of examples from abroad saying that the best clubs (who do not have massive fanbases) continually sell their best player and grow from that income. Lyon and Porto are two example that he writes about in detail iirc.
The problem with Villa at the moment is that they haven't reinvested the money.
Lyon and Porto are able to attract the very best youth players in their respective nations, same as Ajax. We're not in the same situation and can't rely on the same model.
Due to Portuguese law, Porto are able to cherry pick the best from Brazil and South America. If you want a good youth model reference, look no further than Sporting. A selling club.
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Yes. Yes. No.
Yes.