Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Greg N'Ash on June 24, 2011, 09:10:42 AM
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From varying statements coming from the club it seems we'll be putting a much bigger reliance on home grown youth players
Now personally i don't think there's much better than a youth player coming through and making the grade but is it practical?
We've got a much better record on youth players coming through than a lot of clubs but even then its hardly a production line. The last 10 years i can think of only Gabby, Cahill and maybe Allbrighton who you could possibly see in a successful side. Of the rest we've had players who've made the grade but faded (Vassell, Moore), those we've flogged on who weren't good enough for us (Ridgewell, whittingham, gardner) but the vast majority haven't made it.
Now as usual, people are tellling me there's the "next Cowans/Yorke/add your own name" coming through but I've heard this so many times that i view it now with a slightly cynical gaze.
If we are trying to model ourselves on some sort of Ajax ideal or similar, are the club being a bit naive expecting this to work, other than ending up like West ham a few years ago, where they bring the talent through at the cost of very inconsistent performances and then the finished product buggers off to chelsea, ManU while they get relegated?
I'm quite happy to put a bigger emphasis on the youth side and would be more than happy to see a youth player on the bench rather than the likes of Beye, but the facts are, there's a good chance they won't be good enough and in the meantime we have to win games. My question is, if Randy has turned off the money tap would you be happy to go this way and is it at all viable without big spending to compliment it?
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What about Clarke and Bannan? The latter when he came on away at Fulham last year practically ran the show. I feel both will offer even more next season and I wouldn't be against Lichaj getting the right back slot either. He didn't look out of place in the games he played so why not?
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the likes of clarke and bannon has just broken through. We have no idea if they'll make it. They're promising i grant you but at this stage no more than that. People were saying exactly the same about the likes of Moore and Vassell a few years back. One thing for certain is both of them will have a period of bad form as all youth players do, and whether they get over it and improve or go backwards, the team will suffer.
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I'd be worried if we didn't have such a formidable academy set up but the truth is we do and the results in terms of what they produce should improve as time goes by.
I've said for a while now, the best, most sensible and most sustainable way we have of competing for top honours is by producing our own players and wise use of the funds Randy will almost certainly provide to supplement this.
However, fans have to be patient and if this philosophy is ever going to succeed, need to realise that its not an exact science and that the youngsters need to "have their head" and be allowed to make mistakes without the massive pressure on them that could shatter their egg shell minds (cheers Jim).
Arsenal have doing this for a while but in a flawed way at times. We can improve on it.
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How many players in the current Arsenal team are home grown??
I can Only think of Wilshere
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I'd be worried if we didn't have such a formidable academy set up but the truth is we do and the results in terms of what they produce should improve as time goes by.
I've said for a while now, the best, most sensible and most sustainable way we have of competing for top honours is by producing our own players and wise use of the funds Randy will almost certainly provide to supplement this.
However, fans have to be patient and if this philosophy is ever going to succeed, need to realise that its not an exact science and that the youngsters need to "have their head" and be allowed to make mistakes without the massive pressure on them that could shatter their egg shell minds (cheers Jim).
Arsenal have doing this for a while but in a flawed way at times. We can improve on it.
do you think people would have the patience to put up with a few years of bottom half finishes while we blood them? I probably would and i know you would but its not too clver sticking youngsters into a relegation fight
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How many players in the current Arsenal team are home grown??
I can Only think of Wilshere
I think there's a dfference between home-grown and players who have come through the youth system. If you take the latter, there's a fair few; Szczesny, Clichy, Song, Diaby all played for the Youth team even if they were shipped in at 16/17 from elsewhere.
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How many players in the current Arsenal team are home grown??
I can Only think of Wilshere
Depends on what you count as home grown, personally anyone signed around the age of 16 / 17 should be considered that, and they've plenty of them.
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I'd be worried if we didn't have such a formidable academy set up but the truth is we do and the results in terms of what they produce should improve as time goes by.
I've said for a while now, the best, most sensible and most sustainable way we have of competing for top honours is by producing our own players and wise use of the funds Randy will almost certainly provide to supplement this.
However, fans have to be patient and if this philosophy is ever going to succeed, need to realise that its not an exact science and that the youngsters need to "have their head" and be allowed to make mistakes without the massive pressure on them that could shatter their egg shell minds (cheers Jim).
Arsenal have doing this for a while but in a flawed way at times. We can improve on it.
do you think people would have the patience to put up with a few years of bottom half finishes while we blood them? I probably would and i know you would but its not too clver sticking youngsters into a relegation fight
What if we're not in a relegation dogfight? The right mixture of youth and experience should set us on a decent path.
I would rather see an academy graduate being given a chance than a mercenary money-grabbing journeyman.
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How many players in the current Arsenal team are home grown??
I can Only think of Wilshere
I think there's a dfference between home-grown and players who have come through the youth system. If you take the latter, there's a fair few; Szczesny, Clichy, Song, Diaby all played for the Youth team even if they were shipped in at 16/17 from elsewhere.
Don't forget Fabregas.
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How many players in the current Arsenal team are home grown??
I can Only think of Wilshere
well they're a case in point. they nick a lot of the best young players in the world but even with their set-up they've never really looked like winning anything. And it makes financial sense to go down this way so how come the likes of Manu/chelsea aren't doing it? Manu's golden youth age (and frankly most of them were nicked from other clubs) are now entering the veteran stage and they've had nothing similar since.
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It's unrealistic, I feel, for any club to expect a nucleus of youth players to all turn into world beaters at the same time - it's happened once to a PL team as far as I can remember, the most famous example anyone ever quotes.
But what we have got now is a group of kids who are all maturing nicely, who all played decent roles in the team and squad last season, and all (or most) who I would expect to feature next season. Some of them prominently. And while some of them perhaps won't be major players next season, what that allows us to do is to operate without having to spend good money on squad players.
Next season Albrighton, Clark, Bannan, Delfouneso, Baker, Lichaj, Gardner, Herd and Hogg (and also perhaps Weimann) can all, as far as I can see, play meaningful roles in the first season squad. The first two of them arguably deserve to be nailed-on starters, the next two certainly pushing hard for starts. Baker and Lichaj, from what I've seen, are more than capable of being, at least, back-up players for the full-back positions.
That's ten players there who could justifiably compete for places or play some part in the first team next season. That's a very high ratio - I don't see any other PL club bringing through better youth players at the rate we are. It hopefully scraps the need for us to go hunting around for wasters like Habib Beye to fill a squad place, and allows the manager to focus on recruiting more established players, the 'big names' who can lead the side.
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I think people are obviously going be sceptical because of how it's worked out in the past - Moore, Moore, Cooke, Bewers etc prime examples. But I don' think we've ever had so many top prospects coming through at once? Bannan, Clark, Albrighton, Hogg, Delfouneso, Gardner, Weimann, Baker, Lichaj, Herd & Lowry are all the same generation and if you look at their contributions so far, it does look as if they can all (bar one or two) make it through together. Whether they stay together for the next ten years, it's doubtful, but some can maybe make us a lot of money if not. Out of those listed, they have all impressed in first team games when they've had the chance, very rarely putting a foot wrong. Lowry may be getting a little bit to old now without the level of progress expected but the others are doing well. Coached correctly these players could all be top class and I'd love to see them all get a fair few chances next season - I'd say they're all at the final stage before being the finished article.
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I'd be worried if we didn't have such a formidable academy set up but the truth is we do and the results in terms of what they produce should improve as time goes by.
I've said for a while now, the best, most sensible and most sustainable way we have of competing for top honours is by producing our own players and wise use of the funds Randy will almost certainly provide to supplement this.
However, fans have to be patient and if this philosophy is ever going to succeed, need to realise that its not an exact science and that the youngsters need to "have their head" and be allowed to make mistakes without the massive pressure on them that could shatter their egg shell minds (cheers Jim).
Arsenal have doing this for a while but in a flawed way at times. We can improve on it.
do you think people would have the patience to put up with a few years of bottom half finishes while we blood them? I probably would and i know you would but its not too clver sticking youngsters into a relegation fight
What if we're not in a relegation dogfight? The right mixture of youth and experience should set us on a decent path.
I would rather see an academy graduate being given a chance than a mercenary money-grabbing journeyman.
Well i'll give you an example. Say we let Ivanhoe go this summer, would you be happy with Gabby, Bent, the Fonz and another youth player as our 4 strikers? Now i know the Fonz is rated in some circles but he's got to make the breakthrough soon, so say Bent got crocked for 3 months in December would you give him a try for say 6 games and see if he found his feet at the expense of maybe not scoring much or would you want AM to buy a replacement?
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I'd be happy with a quartet of Bent, Gabby, Delfouneso and Weimann next season. I thought Delfouneso looked pretty sharp when he started at Fulham, home to Blackpool last season.
But I'll quantify that by saying we do need to look at bringing in a couple of goalscoring players in other positions - wide an obvious example now Young's gone but also from central midfield. If we do that, I've no problems at all with those four strikers.
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I'd be worried if we didn't have such a formidable academy set up but the truth is we do and the results in terms of what they produce should improve as time goes by.
I've said for a while now, the best, most sensible and most sustainable way we have of competing for top honours is by producing our own players and wise use of the funds Randy will almost certainly provide to supplement this.
However, fans have to be patient and if this philosophy is ever going to succeed, need to realise that its not an exact science and that the youngsters need to "have their head" and be allowed to make mistakes without the massive pressure on them that could shatter their egg shell minds (cheers Jim).
Arsenal have doing this for a while but in a flawed way at times. We can improve on it.
do you think people would have the patience to put up with a few years of bottom half finishes while we blood them? I probably would and i know you would but its not too clver sticking youngsters into a relegation fight
What if we're not in a relegation dogfight? The right mixture of youth and experience should set us on a decent path.
I would rather see an academy graduate being given a chance than a mercenary money-grabbing journeyman.
Well i'll give you an example. Say we let Ivanhoe go this summer, would you be happy with Gabby, Bent, the Fonz and another youth player as our 4 strikers? Now i know the Fonz is rated in some circles but he's got to make the breakthrough soon, so say Bent got crocked for 3 months in December would you give him a try for say 6 games and see if he found his feet at the expense of maybe not scoring much or would you want AM to buy a replacement?
I think that Randy would encourage McLeish to pick the youth product. I don't think that he would authorise the signing of a player who would fill the gap left by the hypothetical Bent injury.
Ultimately you have to at least give the youth players a chance.
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I'd be happy with a quartet of Bent, Gabby, Delfouneso and Weimann next season. I thought Delfouneso looked pretty sharp when he started at Fulham, home to Blackpool last season.
But I'll quantify that by saying we do need to look at bringing in a couple of goalscoring players in other positions - wide an obvious example now Young's gone but also from central midfield. If we do that, I've no problems at all with those four strikers.
say we're about 14th in december, the crowd are on the manager's back and the players. you stick the Fonz in to fill Bents shoes. Asking a lot of the kid to find his feet in those circumstances. If it goes right, you've got a young player who's made the grade. If it goes wrong we'll in the bottom three by the time Bent comes back and the Fonz's confidence has been destroyed.
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I'd be worried if we didn't have such a formidable academy set up but the truth is we do and the results in terms of what they produce should improve as time goes by.
I've said for a while now, the best, most sensible and most sustainable way we have of competing for top honours is by producing our own players and wise use of the funds Randy will almost certainly provide to supplement this.
However, fans have to be patient and if this philosophy is ever going to succeed, need to realise that its not an exact science and that the youngsters need to "have their head" and be allowed to make mistakes without the massive pressure on them that could shatter their egg shell minds (cheers Jim).
Arsenal have doing this for a while but in a flawed way at times. We can improve on it.
do you think people would have the patience to put up with a few years of bottom half finishes while we blood them? I probably would and i know you would but its not too clver sticking youngsters into a relegation fight
What if we're not in a relegation dogfight? The right mixture of youth and experience should set us on a decent path.
I would rather see an academy graduate being given a chance than a mercenary money-grabbing journeyman.
Well i'll give you an example. Say we let Ivanhoe go this summer, would you be happy with Gabby, Bent, the Fonz and another youth player as our 4 strikers? Now i know the Fonz is rated in some circles but he's got to make the breakthrough soon, so say Bent got crocked for 3 months in December would you give him a try for say 6 games and see if he found his feet at the expense of maybe not scoring much or would you want AM to buy a replacement?
I think that Randy would encourage McLeish to pick the youth product. I don't think that he would authorise the signing of a player who would fill the gap left by the hypothetical Bent injury.
Ultimately you have to at least give the youth players a chance.
true but in those hypothetical circumstances, everyone would be calling for AM to bring someone in during the January transfer window. A few goalless games and missed sitters from the Fonz and it would go from young promising player to "why's he playing a kid ffs?"
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That's one scenario, sure. Another is that by December, the manager has already started Delfouneso in half a dozen or more games, he's bagged a couple of crucial goals, he's already found his feet and feeling confident in himself. When he needs to step up, he's more than capable.
Or another scenario is that the manager shifts his formation, plays Gabby as a lone striker (done it before, very successfully), brings in Bannan and plays an attacking three behind him - Albrighton, Bannan, Downing. Delfouneso is the first change striker off the bench.
Good fun, this game.
The point is, it's not about youth players v making any other signings ever. It's whether our investment in a youth policy results in young players graduating to the senior team and developing and contributing to the senior team. We're doing that, and doing it very successfully.
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I'd be happy with a quartet of Bent, Gabby, Delfouneso and Weimann next season. I thought Delfouneso looked pretty sharp when he started at Fulham, home to Blackpool last season.
But I'll quantify that by saying we do need to look at bringing in a couple of goalscoring players in other positions - wide an obvious example now Young's gone but also from central midfield. If we do that, I've no problems at all with those four strikers.
say we're about 14th in december, the crowd are on the manager's back and the players. you stick the Fonz in to fill Bents shoes. Asking a lot of the kid to find his feet in those circumstances. If it goes right, you've got a young player who's made the grade. If it goes wrong we'll in the bottom three by the time Bent comes back and the Fonz's confidence has been destroyed.
The Fonz has been around the 1st team squad long enough now to not be considered "youth". Your logic applies more to Weimann.
It's a hypothetical scenario; would we end up in the bottom three? We could hypothetically change our tactics for the duration of the Bent absence and play Gabby as a lone striker.
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It's unrealistic, I feel, for any club to expect a nucleus of youth players to all turn into world beaters at the same time - it's happened once to a PL team as far as I can remember, the most famous example anyone ever quotes.
But what we have got now is a group of kids who are all maturing nicely, who all played decent roles in the team and squad last season, and all (or most) who I would expect to feature next season. Some of them prominently. And while some of them perhaps won't be major players next season, what that allows us to do is to operate without having to spend good money on squad players.
Next season Albrighton, Clark, Bannan, Delfouneso, Baker, Lichaj, Gardner, Herd and Hogg (and also perhaps Weimann) can all, as far as I can see, play meaningful roles in the first season squad. The first two of them arguably deserve to be nailed-on starters, the next two certainly pushing hard for starts. Baker and Lichaj, from what I've seen, are more than capable of being, at least, back-up players for the full-back positions.
That's ten players there who could justifiably compete for places or play some part in the first team next season. That's a very high ratio - I don't see any other PL club bringing through better youth players at the rate we are. It hopefully scraps the need for us to go hunting around for wasters like Habib Beye to fill a squad place, and allows the manager to focus on recruiting more established players, the 'big names' who can lead the side.
Well said mate.
And from what Ive seen/heard/been told etc there are a few lads in the 15-17 group that could be very very special indeed.
In the meantime I have no doubts whatsoever that Albrighton, Clark and Gardner will become top players and I still think Delfouneso, Bannan, Lichaj, Siegrist, Herd and Weimann have a great chance. I'm not sure about Baker, Lowry and Hogg but they have potential and are both solid players.
We have to see something of this age group this season to get a better idea of how ready they are. How capable.
Behind them we have the likes of Johnson, Williams, Carruthers, Serrano and Burke who I like. And the same sort of percentage of maybes that the current lot have. It's all looking good and we'll be after more.
As the quality rises it will force those who are questionable out sooner and the more promising younger players can move up. There's always another batch hot on their heels.
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Ajax have been doing it for what 30 years? IMO were only really starting to bare fruit now. I think now the English mentality of teams/coaches of saying ' he's not big enough' is slowly starting to be phased out we may see the slight yet more technical players coming through. Which can only be a good thing as far as AVFC have been concerned as we have produced many of these in the past, not making the grade.
I believe recently we are starting to see more consistent results as far as the youth academy is concerned. I think good coaching combined with the recent development of Bodymoor heath must have had an impact. We can all see the likes of Clark and Albrighton as regulars in the side in the years to come. We've seen Baker, Lichaj, Delfouneso & Bannan showing glimpses that they can do it. G.Gardner and Weimann to come, with others to follow.
The future should be to bleed out MON's 30 something dud's and combine youth with big money, quality signings. In a way the emergence of Man City & Liverpool's possible resurgence means there's even less pressure or expectation for us to make the Champions league. Which should mean more opportunity to give the youth a chance.
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It's unrealistic, I feel, for any club to expect a nucleus of youth players to all turn into world beaters at the same time - it's happened once to a PL team as far as I can remember, the most famous example anyone ever quotes.
But what we have got now is a group of kids who are all maturing nicely, who all played decent roles in the team and squad last season, and all (or most) who I would expect to feature next season. Some of them prominently. And while some of them perhaps won't be major players next season, what that allows us to do is to operate without having to spend good money on squad players.
Next season Albrighton, Clark, Bannan, Delfouneso, Baker, Lichaj, Gardner, Herd and Hogg (and also perhaps Weimann) can all, as far as I can see, play meaningful roles in the first season squad. The first two of them arguably deserve to be nailed-on starters, the next two certainly pushing hard for starts. Baker and Lichaj, from what I've seen, are more than capable of being, at least, back-up players for the full-back positions.
That's ten players there who could justifiably compete for places or play some part in the first team next season. That's a very high ratio - I don't see any other PL club bringing through better youth players at the rate we are. It hopefully scraps the need for us to go hunting around for wasters like Habib Beye to fill a squad place, and allows the manager to focus on recruiting more established players, the 'big names' who can lead the side.
Well said mate.
And from what Ive seen/heard/been told etc there are a few lads in the 15-17 group that could be very very special indeed.
In the meantime I have no doubts whatsoever that Albrighton, Clark and Gardner will become top players and I still think Delfouneso, Bannan, Lichaj, Siegrist, Herd and Weimann have a great chance. I'm not sure about Baker, Lowry and Hogg but they have potential and are both solid players.
We have to see something of this age group this season to get a better idea of how ready they are. How capable.
Behind them we have the likes of Johnson, Williams, Carruthers, Serrano and Burke who I like. And the same sort of percentage of maybes that the current lot have. It's all looking good and we'll be after more.
As the quality rises it will force those who are questionable out sooner and the more promising younger players can move up. There's always another batch hot on their heels.
You obviously know a lot more about these young players than most of us and I share the hope that they will make the breakthrough.
But, unfortunately, the fact remains that very few of these young players realise their potential and become Premier League players. What's more is that the bigger clubs are also developing their youth systems and doing so by buying up the best talent from around the globe. So while it's great we are producing quality local (for the most part) talent, we are still going to fall behing the bigger clubs in this area as well.
The "youth route" should be a continuous strategy for all clubs and not a change in policy. We should always be looking to bring in youth players to the first team. But they need to blooded gradually, although a lot of ours were thrown in last season due to necessity.
Clark and Albrighton need to step in to be fully fledged first teamers this year. We need to be saying the same about Bannan and Fonz this time next year or I fear they wont make the grade. The rest need to impress the new manager and take any chances that come their way, but we certainly shouldnt be looking to build a team around them.
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The other aspect to developing youth players, of course - the Plan B - is that if they don't ultimately cut it at Villa, they generate transfer revenue. There's obviously a far better margin in selling a Craig Gardner than selling on a Habib Beye or a Marlon Harewood or a Steve Sidwell or a.... (insert knackered old pro here)
Make no mistake, that's another reason for developing good young players. If they're not quite good enough for us, they will be for another PL or Championship club.
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Greg, I don't think your opening question was particularly theoretical. It IS the way the club will have to compete: we cannot afford to buy success (at least not if we want it quickly) and the strategy therefore has be developed as a combination of the Arsenal way (grabbing the youth potential from as wide a geography as possible and developing them in our academy) and the Chelsea way (buying the finished article, spending as much as we can afford).
And I don't think this is a new approach.
And since no one has mentioned it explicitly above (although it was hinted at) we will - like most of the middling P'ship clubs - be a 'selling club': until we can offer regular Chumps Lge, our better players will get poached by clubs that can.
Our challenge is to (i) continue developing enough good players that we can stock our first team squad with talented youngsters who retain some loyalty; (ii) sell those in demand for the best possible price and build in sell-on clauses for all of them when they do go; (iii) buy experienced players who can add value to the development of our youngsteres as well as contributing to the first team performance.
So, McGinge has a real responsibility - IMHO - to continue the good work, make sure he becomes known as someone who values good youngsters and plays them when appropriate and also retains / brings in the experienced players that can help. By doing all that he will ensure that Villa continue to be seen by the future stars as the place to learn their trade.
I know that other clubs probably could write the same thing about their strategy, but the difference is that we sem to be doing all the right things in the Academy, courtesy of Mr Jones and his team there.
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I don't know if Bannan can cut it, he's shown glimpses but he's also faded in a lot of games, it's been discussed on the transfer thread, he can't be loaned out again, If he's going to be part of the first team it has to be now for me!
The Fonz, Like Agbonlahor, he divides opinion. Is he strong enough? GH said he needed to man up. One goal at Burnley & he looked lost at times.
Lichaj he looked ok to me when he played, it was rumoured he took the blame of the man city debacle, for me I think he can cut it. Need to see him more really.
Albrighton, the best of the lot for me but at times last year he looked short of ideas, was it Wigan when he came on and was terrible? it was one of the latter home games I recall.
Clark, Looks good, played in Midfield when we had injuries he did OK, best position CB or make shift LB for me, He is prone to mistakes though and looks like he could get sent off every game.
Weimann not sure my mate supports watford he said he was shite
Can we play them all in the same team at the same time?? For me No.
We need a mix of experience and youth imo.
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I don't think anyone's suggesting they all play in the team at the same time. Definitely not.
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As we appear to have a better than average crop of yougsters coming through; one would hope the requirement for squad fillers would no longer be necessary - this had cost us a fare few million over the years.
If our new manager is happy with the youth as back-up, we can spend 'whatever' budget we have on excellence and not journeyman dross.
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It's getting the balance of giving them experience and over playing them right. Until Christmas Albrighton was playing really well,then his formed dipped due to tiredness and maybe defenders sussing him out a bit.
This is to be expected with young players,though you don't wanna put them in situations where their confidence gets battered.
If they can get 15 to 20 games experience that'll be a bonus. I really hope Clark Albrighton and Delph can cement their place in the first team this season and Gardner,Johnson get some experience.
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There's no reason to think we'll "fall behind bigger clubs" in this regard.
Firstly, Aston Villa is a massive club. If you're a kid its a tantaslising prospect coming to Villa.
Secondly we've already been taking players at the expense of other clubs who might be considered as big or bigger.
The truth is that if you make a name for yourself in terms of producing young players you will be considered before other clubs. It wont always play out that way of course, but the type of kids you want, the ones who see past going to a so called "top 4" club in order to make a name for themselves at a club with ambitions and precedent for bringing players all the way through, who have lavished funding on facilities to that end, will as often as not or more often than not, choose Villa.
We've set our stall out for this already. It is the future I believe.
What are we going to do otherwise? Try and pick up the scraps that the champions league clubs dont want? How will we ever compete for honours?
We wont be the only club trying things this way, but we'll be one of the best at it hopefully.
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There's not much I can add to what has already been said apart from that Villa's challenge will be to keep the slight edge they appear to have at the moment. The big advantage we can offer a young player is that we are an established Premier League club that can give them a genuine chance to prove themselves, unlike a Chelsea or a Manchester City with their congested squads and their big money signings constantly arriving.
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Totally agree with what's been said.
We can all see what an outstanding job the acadamy has been doing down the Villa and some will develop better than others, some will surprise us and others disappoint. It's a big year coming up for the likes of Clark, Bannan and Fonz in particular. I'm certain Albrighton has a big future.
You'd have to think the sheer quantity and general quality of young lads coming through means RL and AM can build a squad around these players with 5-6 quality imports for the first XI - Bent being a prime example.
I'm expecting another season of transition but if a few of these lads kick on and fulfill their potentials we've one hell of a team in the offing in a couple of years time I know that much - so there is much to be optimistic about.
Having someone like James Milner around would suit this young, hungry ambitious group of players down to the ground.
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The only two I can see playing week in week out next season are Clark and Albrighton as both showed last season they're good enough I think.
Bannan, Fonz, Baker not really sure will be.
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dont you all realise that if Clark and Albrighton have a good season we will only sell them to man ure and other top 5 teams, what is the point ?
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As our squad stands right now Clark, Bannan, Albrighton and Delph are probably in the matchday 16, 2 in the first 11 and 2 on the bench. Delfouneso will be pushing Heskey hard for his place on the bench too and Lichaj, Baker, Gardner, Hogg etc will be an injury or 2 from being involved. We need at least 3 or 4 of these guys to make the Agbonlahor/Cahill level at least it if we are to have a chance of challenging the top 6-8. We can't build a very strong team (like we had 3 yrs ago with Mellberg, Bouma, Laursen, Young, Milner, Barry, Carew, Friedel etc) from just Bent, Gabby, Downing and Makoun, we need Clark, Delph, Albrighton, Bannan etc to step up a level and really make it. We dont have the funds to buy 3/4 of a new team, one or 2 new additions yes (keeper, Young replacement etc) and maybe the odd big name like Bent, but the core of the team for the next 3/4 yrs needs to really be made up of what we have right now.
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dont you all realise that if Clark and Albrighton have a good season we will only sell them to man ure and other top 5 teams, what is the point ?
Quite right, let's just give up now and melt the players down for glue.
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The only two I can see playing week in week out next season are Clark and Albrighton as both showed last season they're good enough I think.
Bannan, Fonz, Baker not really sure will be.
I concur
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dont you all realise that if Clark and Albrighton have a good season we will only sell them to man ure and other top 5 teams, what is the point ?
Well, if you read some of the more thoughtful posts above you might realise that - whilst selling them is certainly a possibility - the strategy we're chasing down will eventually put us in the top echelons of the P'ship.
Meantime, you might be better supporting a club that can give you instant gratIfication.
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The only two I can see playing week in week out next season are Clark and Albrighton as both showed last season they're good enough I think.
Bannan, Fonz, Baker not really sure will be.
True although Hogg got a regular game for Portsmouth and may be ready to step up and Herd seemed to be close to getting a few more games.
Additionally, I think Lichaj will definitely feature in one of the FB positions.
I'm most interested to see whether Weimann can 'cut it' - he seems to be a better prospect than the Fonz.
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dont you all realise that if Clark and Albrighton have a good season we will only sell them to man ure and other top 5 teams, what is the point ?
Obviously not. We all bow to your superior intellect.
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This is one of the things that worries me about rumoured pursuits of middling (at best) pros like Gardner and Adam. These guys play in a similar position to where we would accomodate Delph, Bannan and a year or so down the line Gardner. I have no qualms in singing players who are absolutely top class that get in the team ahead of young players but if we are spending it on mediocre ones then I'm not so happy. We have finite funding and I'd rather see us use that on top class players who can play with our young players than mediocre ones who will play in the place of them.
Next season will be crucial. We have no certainty that any of our current prospects will make it. There are still reservations to be had with Clark and Albrighton and next season will be crucial in dispelling those. I think both should be regulars at the start of the season to prove themselves. Maybe Bannan and Lichaj too though I see them playing supporting roles.
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This is one of the things that worries me about rumoured pursuits of middling (at best) pros like Gardner and Adam. These guys play in a similar position to where we would accomodate Delph, Bannan and a year or so down the line Gardner. I have no qualms in singing players who are absolutely top class that get in the team ahead of young players but if we are spending it on mediocre ones then I'm not so happy. We have finite funding and I'd rather see us use that on top class players who can play with our young players than mediocre ones who will play in the place of them.
Next season will be crucial. We have no certainty that any of our current prospects will make it. There are still reservations to be had with Clark and Albrighton and next season will be crucial in dispelling those. I think both should be regulars at the start of the season to prove themselves. Maybe Bannan and Lichaj too though I see them playing supporting roles.
Agree with all that, but I do think Clark will definitely make it. He looks excellent to me.
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dont you all realise that if Clark and Albrighton have a good season we will only sell them to man ure and other top 5 teams, what is the point ?
Good point. I'd much rather them have no impact whatsoever and end up flogging them to the Blues for £450k in a year or so.
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From listening to people who watch the babbies more regularly than me, the likes of Bannan and so on deserve to be given a chance. The problem is finding the balance between breaking them in gently and throwing them all in at once. Personally I'd send the younger ones out on loan as long as they're guaranteed games. If they're sitting on someone else's bench they might as well be playing for our reserves.
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As people have already mentioned that united team was a bit of a one of. It also contained alot of older heads in the team and the squad to learn from. When last season our younger players were played as we had so many injuries, and our older "professionals" were the ones causing issues, not setting a great example or showing support. So a tough comparison.
I think that if every couple of years we can produce players of clark and albrighton's ability, and a few players as good squad players then our youth policy will be viewed as sucessful. If you add to that scouting and poaching players at a young age like arsenal have done for years, then the future looks really bright.
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I think of the current crop, Clark, Albrighton and Lijah will be regulars, it's up in the air whether Delph would be ahead of Bannan though I can't see it myself.
Promote the youth, play the long game and when football and it's wages destroy itself we'll be top of the pile. Wenger already knows this.
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I'd be happy with a quartet of Bent, Gabby, Delfouneso and Weimann next season. I thought Delfouneso looked pretty sharp when he started at Fulham, home to Blackpool last season.
But I'll quantify that by saying we do need to look at bringing in a couple of goalscoring players in other positions - wide an obvious example now Young's gone but also from central midfield. If we do that, I've no problems at all with those four strikers.
say we're about 14th in december, the crowd are on the manager's back and the players. you stick the Fonz in to fill Bents shoes. Asking a lot of the kid to find his feet in those circumstances. If it goes right, you've got a young player who's made the grade. If it goes wrong we'll in the bottom three by the time Bent comes back and the Fonz's confidence has been destroyed.
The Fonz has been around the 1st team squad long enough now to not be considered "youth". Your logic applies more to Weimann.
It's a hypothetical scenario; would we end up in the bottom three? We could hypothetically change our tactics for the duration of the Bent absence and play Gabby as a lone striker.
I'd say he was still youth because if he isn't you have to ask why he hasn't made the breakthrough yet. If we are going down the youth route then he really does need to get a run of games this season because otherwise it won't be long until we have an osbourne situation of a youth player who's just blocking the path of the players below him. At the moment i'd say his record doesn't even show if he can come in and score goals as a back-up
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Maybe with the Fonz and Weimann it would be worth giving them a full season on loan at the top end of the championship?
The problem both faced last season was that they were going out on loan late into the season when pressure was greater and the managers had their ideas on how the team should be setup. If we loan them to someone at the top end of the championship then we have the option of a recall that we wouldn't have if we loaned them to someone like Swansea at the lower end of the Premiership. I think what both have suffered from is a lack of football.
Of course we would have to sign another striker as backup if we did this...
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I think that powers that be would like the youth route to be the case. Certainly for English football, we need to nuture our own talent and make a better national side in years to come. But Fifa wants to put more emphasis on home grown players. Whether this proves realistic is another matter. And how well they curb the likes of Man City too.
Hopefully this will happen. I think we have the talent in our academy to sprinkle into our first team squad over the next few years. We might have lost a few by the wayside, but who knows how some players may have developed had they been given more chance on the big stage. Though Whittingham, Luke Moore for example failed, they had the potential to be very good. Even Ridgewell could actually be a useful squad player for us to be fair. While as we all know, we should have kept Cahill. Granted Moore has plenty of chance here, and his attitude held him back. With better guidance he could still be with us, doing the business. He was never the same after we let him go. Same with Stefan.
But yeah, I'd like to see players like Bannan and Fonzie given far more game time, to see how they handle matters. Not 2-3 games , and then taken out the firing line and not seen much beyond. There was no point at all in either going out on loan last season. People here are raving about Gary Gardner, so lets see him given a shot. If we have 11 genuinely good quality experienced players in our squad, and the rest our young players, including those recently established, like Bannan and Albrighton, then we could be a very good side potentionally. We won't compte just yet, but in a few years, we could be in good shape.
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My strategy would be: proven players for the first xi, kids as first choice back up. If we'd had that strategy we'd have kept Cahill and Gardner and not Davies / knight or sidwell; saved a few bob and been better off as a result.
If we do that, albrighton, delph and clark will get enough chances and bannan, fonz, lichaj and baker will get chances here and there.
I think people saying fonz faces a make or break year are mistaken. Sturridge has only just had a proper break through and he's almost two years older.
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It may be just me but I am very impressed with the calibre of 'home grown' players coming through to the first team at Villa. The fact that they have made it and perform very well in that context says a lot about the selection and subsequent development and training of those young players under the Villa system.
Has anybody looked at the stats for success in similar youth team investment in the PL and Europe?
It seems to me that in every cohort of 20 or 30 - odd, there are going to be maybe only 1, 2 or 3 who could realistically be considered for a place on the team in the 'top flight'. As I understand it, these players may be sent on loan to extend their first team experience.
And, there will be a larger number of players who will have learned well and can play to a standard which is attractive to some Premiership and Championship teams.
Manchester United's system threw up (sorry) about 6 players who were able to enter the premiership squad, in the late 90's. Have they done it before, or since?
I think what I'm asking is, as to me Villa's youth set-up looks very good, can the club learn anything from an analysis of what other top clubs are doing with their youth training and recruitment? And if not, are we exploiting our expertise to the max?
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Bannan or Ireland .............Clark or Beye.............Lichaj or Warnock ? -
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I don't think any of the 'kids' have had a proper chance yet with the possible exception of Albrighton and maybe Clark. I think more of them will pleasantly surprise us than some on here imagine. They need playing time and I think in this coming season they will get it. I so wanted to see Fonz and Bannan, for example, get more pitch time here last season. Maybe Houllier thought it was unfair to play them in a relegation scrap.
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I don't think any of the 'kids' have had a proper chance yet with the possible exception of Albrighton and maybe Clark.
I would agree with this. He hasn't been mentioned as much as the others but I thought Chris Herd looked promising from what I saw.
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Gary Gardner will/should get more first team chances after a full pre season. Delph is also needs a good summer but is still injured. Clarke and Baker also have a big chance. But they have to be brought in around strong first team players ........
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the likes of clarke and bannon has just broken through. We have no idea if they'll make it. They're promising i grant you but at this stage no more than that. People were saying exactly the same about the likes of Moore and Vassell a few years back. One thing for certain is both of them will have a period of bad form as all youth players do, and whether they get over it and improve or go backwards, the team will suffer.
[think that's a bit harsh to be lumping vassell in with moore, greg. Vassell made it at Villa whereas moore never did and I was disappointed when he went to City. I went on his website when he was in Turkey a couple of years back and its pretty clear he's just not very clever - loves the villa though. Could've been a great.]
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We have potentially very good young players, we could be wasteing millions by not giving them a chance.
The trouble is we are Aston Villa, we expect, rightfully , to be competative, we are not Bolton, or Albion for example who can afford to try these kids and see how they turn out.
Having seen all of them, Hogg, Albrighton, Delph, Delfunso, Weimann, Clark, Baker, Licjah, Bannan, and all of them could be good players, some very good.Its about getting the balance right.
I always judge players against the best teams, and Hogg, Bannan, and Albrighton were very good against Ure.They all need to develop, but given time they could all represent us in the forthcoming years.
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i like vassell... always thought he would have made a better winger than a striker though...
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We have potentially very good young players, we could be wasteing millions by not giving them a chance.
The trouble is we are Aston Villa, we expect, rightfully , to be competative, we are not Bolton, or Albion for example who can afford to try these kids and see how they turn out.
Having seen all of them, Hogg, Albrighton, Delph, Delfunso, Weimann, Clark, Baker, Licjah, Bannan, and all of them could be good players, some very good.Its about getting the balance right.
I always judge players against the best teams, and Hogg, Bannan, and Albrighton were very good against Ure.They all need to develop, but given time they could all represent us in the forthcoming years.
didn't we pay leeds 7m for Delph?????
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as for the topic, its great that we have a decent academy and are producing some technically gifted players these days...
the likes of bannon, albrighton, delfouneso, clark, baker, are all comfortable with the ball at their feet, and with the work that we are doing at really young ages (ben petty has 9 year olds doing nothing but pass and move and most are comfortable with the ball on both feet), i really believe we are going to produce a real superstar over the next 10 years...
jordan graham and jack grealish are two who look like the have huge potential... raw potential at the ages of 15 / 16, but they are being progressed quicker than others in the same age group, and with graham, he has the physical stature to back up the fantastic ability he has on the ball... attitude and match intelligence is something that could be a cause of stopping the likes of him being a very good footballer... but that wont become apparent until he is in and around the first team... as always with youngsters, ability is nothing if they dont have the right mentality...
so the work in the academy is fantastic and i genuinely believe we can produce real quality players in the future... (whether we get to keep them, is a different discussion)...
however, we cant just rely on the youngsters... we obviously need to get the balance right... an outstanding talent should be integrated into the first team and be helped by quality experienced players... otherwise the talented youngster will sink without a trace... chucking too many in at once, while they will have good games and bad games, will damage the clubs results, because no matter how good they are and how much potential they have, consistancy with youngsters just isnt there... so for half the team to be youngsters, means that results will suffer, and then confidence suffers and we are then on a slippery slope...
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pablo - just interested to know how you can make the assessment above. Do you work around the squad, not being funny??
Steven Davies did well when he was chucked in at the deep end, can't think of too many others who have.
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no, i dont work around the squad (i live in devon these days)...
my views are merely my opinion based on watching a lot of youth football over the years, and having a bit of "knowledge" about the current set up...
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Some good points Pablo, interesting hear about the Ben Petty comments. Imagine if we produced a two footed Paul Merson!
I don't think anyone would advocate throwing all the kids in at once, however having Licaj instead of Beye, Cahill instead of Knight, and the fonz instead of Heskey should free up sufficient transfer money and wages to buy more players like Bent.
That's how I hope it pans out anyway.