Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Desi on May 18, 2011, 10:48:33 AM
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They should be a good read, especially for anyone with an interest in 'recent' Villa history.
Sir William, now aged 89, took over as chairman of the club from Ellis in 1975 and was chairman at the time of 1-0 victory over Bayern Munich in Rotterdam.
Writing in his book, Settling The Bill, Sir William said: “Doug was very anti-Saunders and tried to veto his appointment but (board member) Harry Cressman said: ‘Who else is there?’ and moved that we appoint him.
“After much argument and discussion regarding re-advertising, we left Doug to discuss terms with Ron.
“Whatever happened next we shall never know, but Ron and Doug were not on the same wavelength from day one.”
Read More http://www.birminghampost.net/news/west-midlands-news/2011/05/18/former-villa-chairman-bill-dugdale-reveals-battles-with-doug-ellis-65233-28711608/#ixzz1MhD62JUU
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That is going on my Christmas list.
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Sir William, now aged 89, took over as chairman of the club from Ellis in 1975 and was chairman at the time of 1-0 victory over Bayern Munich in Rotterdam.
No he wasn't.
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Wasn't it Bendal(l)?
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i thought Bendal was in charge before Doug in the 60s
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I thought Harry Kartz took over from Doug as Chairman when Bendall bought him out in 79, but stepped down in 81 and Bendall himself took the Chair so was Chairman at the time of Rotterdam. I don't think Bendall had any connection to the club until 1979.
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I must get his book.
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Sir William joined the board in the early seventies, and became chairman when Doug stepped down from the role in 1975. He resigned the chair and from the board in 1978, and was succeeded as chair by Harry Kartz. His last act of any great significance was in 1979, when his shareholding proved decisive in Doug being removed from the board.
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Sir William joined the board in the early seventies, and became chairman when Doug stepped down from the role in 1975. He resigned the chair and from the board in 1978, and was succeeded as chair by Harry Kartz. His last act of any great significance was in 1979, when his shareholding proved decisive in Doug being removed from the board.
just how bad or good for the club was it when Doug came back?
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Wasn't it Bendal(l)?
No, Bendall took over from Harry Kartz in 1980 and was responsible for God, sorry I mean Ron Saunders leaving.
Harry Kartz quote
But I feel that a club must have a chairman who is able to get on with his manager, so I asked Ron Bendall to take over.
"Then Bendall went to the Isle of Man to live, so we had our arguments over that."
Kartz bitterly regrets the fact that Saunders quit Villa for Blues at a time when Villa really could have challenged Liverpool to become the team of the 1980s.
He said: "I bumped into him at John Robson's funeral. He looked well and we had a long chat.
"He was one of the best - right up there with Bill Shankly and Brian Clough for what he did at Villa.
"When he left I told Ron Bendall we mustn't get a new manager in. When that happens they get rid of players to get their own in and alter the set-up.
"So we went with Tony Barton and won the European Cup. Then Doug sacked Barton in May 1984.
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Sir William joined the board in the early seventies, and became chairman when Doug stepped down from the role in 1975. He resigned the chair and from the board in 1978, and was succeeded as chair by Harry Kartz. His last act of any great significance was in 1979, when his shareholding proved decisive in Doug being removed from the board.
just how bad or good for the club was it when Doug came back?
I believe it was an act of sheer vandalism, Ellis was chairman and major shareholder of Aston Villa 1968 to 1975. Ellis was replaced as chairman and finally ousted from the board in 1979. During his absence Aston Villa enjoyed its greatest period of success in modern times, winning the Football League title in 1981 and the European Cup in 1982.
I find it hard to take we have a stand named after the twat, this should be renamed THE RON SAUNDERS STAND!
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But would we have had the highs of 81 and 82 if Ellis and co hadn't rescued the club in 68? I doubt it.
The years 68-75 provided a strong platform for the successes that followed.
As for Ron Saunders, I have the utmost respect for what he did for us when he was here but he also walked out on us at a vital time in our history and within no time was working at The Sty - so I wouldn't be happy to have a stand named after him either.
Plain old Witton Lane Stand is what it should have remained.
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Wasn't it Bendal(l)?
No, Bendall took over from Harry Kartz in 1980 and was responsible for God, sorry I mean Ron Saunders leaving.
Harry Kartz quote
But I feel that a club must have a chairman who is able to get on with his manager, so I asked Ron Bendall to take over.
"Then Bendall went to the Isle of Man to live, so we had our arguments over that."
Kartz bitterly regrets the fact that Saunders quit Villa for Blues at a time when Villa really could have challenged Liverpool to become the team of the 1980s.
He said: "I bumped into him at John Robson's funeral. He looked well and we had a long chat.
"He was one of the best - right up there with Bill Shankly and Brian Clough for what he did at Villa.
"When he left I told Ron Bendall we mustn't get a new manager in. When that happens they get rid of players to get their own in and alter the set-up.
"So we went with Tony Barton and won the European Cup. Then Doug sacked Barton in May 1984.
I met Ron Bendall's daughter once.
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Wasn't it Bendal(l)?
No, Bendall took over from Harry Kartz in 1980 and was responsible for God, sorry I mean Ron Saunders leaving.
Harry Kartz quote
But I feel that a club must have a chairman who is able to get on with his manager, so I asked Ron Bendall to take over.
"Then Bendall went to the Isle of Man to live, so we had our arguments over that."
Kartz bitterly regrets the fact that Saunders quit Villa for Blues at a time when Villa really could have challenged Liverpool to become the team of the 1980s.
He said: "I bumped into him at John Robson's funeral. He looked well and we had a long chat.
"He was one of the best - right up there with Bill Shankly and Brian Clough for what he did at Villa.
"When he left I told Ron Bendall we mustn't get a new manager in. When that happens they get rid of players to get their own in and alter the set-up.
"So we went with Tony Barton and won the European Cup. Then Doug sacked Barton in May 1984.
I met Ron Bendall's daughter once.
I worked for Ron Bendall's sons.
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Interesting man. Won a Military Cross, rode in The Grand National in the fifties, Uncle of David Cameron and responsible for his interest in the Villa, instrumental in appointing Ron Saunders and didn't like Doug. I think you will find that Kartz, Dugdale and Bendall supported Saunders and got together against Doug to force him out. Unfortunately Bendall later fell out with Saunders and Doug was determined to return and make sure when he did he would never be vunerable to being forced out again. So when Bendall's health was declining Doug was able to buy the European Champions for half a million quid and answer to no-one for the next twenty four years.
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But would we have had the highs of 81 and 82 if Ellis and co hadn't rescued the club in 68? I doubt it.
The years 68-75 provided a strong platform for the successes that followed.
As for Ron Saunders, I have the utmost respect for what he did for us when he was here but he also walked out on us at a vital time in our history and within no time was working at The Sty - so I wouldn't be happy to have a stand named after him either.
Plain old Witton Lane Stand is what it should have remained.
In what way was the club rescued? Financially or were we being badly run?
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Interesting man. Won a Military Cross, rode in The Grand National in the fifties, Uncle of David Cameron and responsible for his interest in the Villa, instrumental in appointing Ron Saunders and didn't like Doug. I think you will find that Kartz, Dugdale and Bendall supported Saunders and got together against Doug to force him out. Unfortunately Bendall later fell out with Saunders and Doug was determined to return and make sure when he did he would never be vunerable to being forced out again. So when Bendall's health was declining Doug was able to buy the European Champions for half a million quid and answer to no-one for the next twenty four years.
And a direct descendant of William the Conqueror. He resigned from the board along with Alan Smith and Harry Cressman in 1978 because of the delay in giving Ron Saunders a new contract and also because it was believed Ellis & Bendall were carving the club up between them. In 1979 Doug was desperate for Sir William's support, offering him the club presidency in return, but after originally saying he would abstain the Dugdale shareholding voted with Bendall. Why Bendall later sold his shares to Doug (In the words of Harry Kartz, "For a pittance to a man he despised") is one of the great mysteries of all time.
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But would we have had the highs of 81 and 82 if Ellis and co hadn't rescued the club in 68? I doubt it.
The years 68-75 provided a strong platform for the successes that followed.
As for Ron Saunders, I have the utmost respect for what he did for us when he was here but he also walked out on us at a vital time in our history and within no time was working at The Sty - so I wouldn't be happy to have a stand named after him either.
Plain old Witton Lane Stand is what it should have remained.
In what way was the club rescued? Financially or were we being badly run?
You need to read a couple of the history books - "Children of the Revolution" or "Aston Villa: the first 100 years" are good starters. Or you could talk to our resident expert Mr Woodhall and get him to flog you some of his (excellent) tomes.
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Yes read the children of revolution. I never heard of Harry Kartz, why did he sell his shares to Bendall then sold to HDE then Lerner. Shame there is no Randy Lerner in 1977 to take over the Villa. We will be bigger than Barcelona if this actually happens. :( and probably win more European Cup than any English club.
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I put it on amazon wish list to remind me
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If I remember correctly Bendall sold to Doug because his health was very bad (I think he passed away not long after), the club was in debt and Doug offered more money than Harry Parkes did.
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Why Bendall later sold his shares to Doug (In the words of Harry Kartz, "For a pittance to a man he despised") is one of the great mysteries of all time.
Indeed it is.
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Interesting man. Won a Military Cross, rode in The Grand National in the fifties, Uncle of David Cameron and responsible for his interest in the Villa, instrumental in appointing Ron Saunders and didn't like Doug. I think you will find that Kartz, Dugdale and Bendall supported Saunders and got together against Doug to force him out. Unfortunately Bendall later fell out with Saunders and Doug was determined to return and make sure when he did he would never be vunerable to being forced out again. So when Bendall's health was declining Doug was able to buy the European Champions for half a million quid and answer to no-one for the next twenty four years.
And a direct descendant of William the Conqueror. He resigned from the board along with Alan Smith and Harry Cressman in 1978 because of the delay in giving Ron Saunders a new contract and also because it was believed Ellis & Bendall were carving the club up between them. In 1979 Doug was desperate for Sir William's support, offering him the club presidency in return, but after originally saying he would abstain the Dugdale shareholding voted with Bendall. Why Bendall later sold his shares to Doug (In the words of Harry Kartz, "For a pittance to a man he despised") is one of the great mysteries of all time.
Did you never get to talk to him Dave?
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Interesting man. Won a Military Cross, rode in The Grand National in the fifties, Uncle of David Cameron and responsible for his interest in the Villa, instrumental in appointing Ron Saunders and didn't like Doug. I think you will find that Kartz, Dugdale and Bendall supported Saunders and got together against Doug to force him out. Unfortunately Bendall later fell out with Saunders and Doug was determined to return and make sure when he did he would never be vunerable to being forced out again. So when Bendall's health was declining Doug was able to buy the European Champions for half a million quid and answer to no-one for the next twenty four years.
And a direct descendant of William the Conqueror. He resigned from the board along with Alan Smith and Harry Cressman in 1978 because of the delay in giving Ron Saunders a new contract and also because it was believed Ellis & Bendall were carving the club up between them. In 1979 Doug was desperate for Sir William's support, offering him the club presidency in return, but after originally saying he would abstain the Dugdale shareholding voted with Bendall. Why Bendall later sold his shares to Doug (In the words of Harry Kartz, "For a pittance to a man he despised") is one of the great mysteries of all time.
Did you never get to talk to him Dave?
Several times. The aristocracy are most obliging to the lower orders.
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Ron Bendall was definetely chairman in May 1981. The film shown at the VP before each home game until about a season ago culminating with Morty lifting the cup showed Bendall in the background. He looks really grumpy, but then again I would doubt anybody ever saw him looking anything but grumpy and grouchy-thats how he always struck me, a big grumpy bloke with a hell of a lot of money. His son Donald was the one who was more the Villa fan and maybe the reason his Dad got involved in the first place. Sir William Dugdale was a very different kettle of fish, an aristocrat with a ready smile, well spoken and cheerful.
At boardroom level during the 1970s the Villa must have had more political in fighting than any other club in the country. What with Doug, the Bendalls, Sir William Dugdale and various other directors coming and going it's surprising that the whole period on the pitch was one of almost continual progress. Because of the fans share issue in 1969, AGMs used to be held on the pitch in front of the Witton Lane stand and it would always be full (approx 5,000 or so ?). There was a big power struggle in the mid 70s between Doug and another director called Jim Hartley, cant remember exactly but the other directors around at the time were Harry Kartz, Harry Parkes, Harry Cressman, Bob Mackay (father of the disgraced tory MP Andrew Mackay) and Alan Smith (the ex cricketer). There was an extrordinary general meeting called, I honestly cant rememer all the ins and outs but I think it resulted in the beginning of the end of Dougs first spell. All I know for certain is that it was an incredibly heated meeting with brickbats and insults being thown between directors on the stage and big big arguements breaking out all over the stand. This was a time of recession, strikes, 3 day weeks and power cuts but for Villa shareholders this was what used to really get a lot of them steamed up- only because they loved and cared about the club as we all still do. I remember at cup game up at Burnley and our Dad got talking to someone he knew before kick off about boardroom issues at the time. The next thing we know the two of them are having a full blown arguement and it nearly turn into a physical fight. All over who should be on the board of directors !
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Looks like a great read!
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In what way was the club rescued? Financially or were we being badly run?
In 1968 Villa were a club dying on their feet, on and off the pitch they had been left behind in the 1950s and were rapidly heading for financial ruin. Doug Ellis along with people he brought in such as commercial manager Eric Woodward modernised the club and the whirlwind year of Tommy Docherty got the crowds back. This is why you will generally find many older Villa fans have more time for Doug. For all his faults, few of us have the same animosty or think of him having just been in it merely for his own financial gain.
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Wasn't it Bendal(l)?
No, Bendall took over from Harry Kartz in 1980 and was responsible for God, sorry I mean Ron Saunders leaving.
Harry Kartz quote
But I feel that a club must have a chairman who is able to get on with his manager, so I asked Ron Bendall to take over.
"Then Bendall went to the Isle of Man to live, so we had our arguments over that."
Kartz bitterly regrets the fact that Saunders quit Villa for Blues at a time when Villa really could have challenged Liverpool to become the team of the 1980s.
He said: "I bumped into him at John Robson's funeral. He looked well and we had a long chat.
"He was one of the best - right up there with Bill Shankly and Brian Clough for what he did at Villa.
"When he left I told Ron Bendall we mustn't get a new manager in. When that happens they get rid of players to get their own in and alter the set-up.
"So we went with Tony Barton and won the European Cup. Then Doug sacked Barton in May 1984.
I met Ron Bendall's daughter once.
Ellis opposed Saunders appointment so for all financial stability he might have gave the club imagine our history with no Ron Saunders, no European cup, no league title, no European super cup. I know it's a long time ago now but it was magical and anyone lucky enough to be there at the time will forgive him going to the clowns. Saunders only wanted a 3 year rolling contract, after what he achieved at the club he deserved it.
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In what way was the club rescued? Financially or were we being badly run?
In 1968 Villa were a club dying on their feet, on and off the pitch they had been left behind in the 1950s and were rapidly heading for financial ruin. Doug Ellis along with people he brought in such as commercial manager Eric Woodward modernised the club and the whirlwind year of Tommy Docherty got the crowds back. This is why you will generally find many older Villa fans have more time for Doug. For all his faults, few of us have the same animosty or think of him having just been in it merely for his own financial gain.
You're right in many respects, ALITA, but I'm afraid my gratitude toward him faded during the 1980's and the share-issue of the 1990's. In the end I felt he had run the club in too conservative a way through the early days of the "Sky revolution"and became a 'dead hand' on its affairs. His obit, I'm sure, will focus on the halcyon days of the mid-1970's when we re-asserted ourselves as a significant club, following the roller-coaster ride of the 3rd Division.
We were certainly a club that had media interest, for its regular boardroom dramas.
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The first boardroom battle was in 1972, just after we'd got promoted from division three. Only Villa could celebrate promotion by deposing the chairman, but we did. Doug was briefly out of office and replaced by Jim Hartley but reinstated at a subsequent EGM with Hartley kicked off the board. There were a number of directors who came and went from 1968 onwards and in 1979 every one of them with the exception of Eric Houghton voted against Doug.
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Do this mean David Cameron is related to William the Conquestor. as he is related to Sir William Dugdale. I wonder if our media knew about that lol.
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This is why you will generally find many older Villa fans have more time for Doug. For all his faults, few of us have the same animosty or think of him having just been in it merely for his own financial gain.
It's not just the fact that like so many others he was in it for financial gain, (which of course worked) but my animosity mostly arises from his insatiable and ruthless desire for self promotion and agrandisement at the expense of others, even though I know he couldn't (and still can't) help it.
Or perhaps it's just that I'm not as old as I thought I was.
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Double post
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In what way was the club rescued? Financially or were we being badly run?
In 1968 Villa were a club dying on their feet, on and off the pitch they had been left behind in the 1950s and were rapidly heading for financial ruin. Doug Ellis along with people he brought in such as commercial manager Eric Woodward modernised the club and the whirlwind year of Tommy Docherty got the crowds back. This is why you will generally find many older Villa fans have more time for Doug. For all his faults, few of us have the same animosty or think of him having just been in it merely for his own financial gain.
You can exclude me from that Andy - I'm from that generation although I was only 7 in 1968. My Dad loathed the man from day one, and I grew to loathe him too. He came across to me as a complete slimeball. I remain convinced he was only in it not necessarilly for financial gain but for the self-promotion and ego trip. Pat Matthews was the real instigator behind putting the rescue package together, although I will admit that under Doug's first regime Villa were modernised and a fair bit of commerical thinking was introduced. I'd guess much of the latter was diown to Eric Woodward. If Doug really had the best interests of the club at heart, I wonder why so many of his fellow directors were in conflict with him, and why he felt the need to populate the board with his cronies in his later regime.
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Do this mean David Cameron is related to William the Conquestor. as he is related to Sir William Dugdale. I wonder if our media knew about that lol.
He's not a blood relative. Bill Dugdale married DC's aunt.
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It was rumoured at the time that Bendall sold Ellis his shares on the cheap, as he thought it the besy way to get back at the Villa fans for the long term :).
He wasn't universally loved for removing Ron Saunders by not agreeing to the rollover contract he wanted.
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It was rumoured at the time that Bendall sold Ellis his shares on the cheap, as he thought it the besy way to get back at the Villa fans for the long term :).
He wasn't universally loved for removing Ron Saunders by not agreeing to the rollover contract he wanted.
I remember the chant:
"we won the league, we won the cup and Ronnie Bendall fucked it up".
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It was rumoured at the time that Bendall sold Ellis his shares on the cheap, as he thought it the besy way to get back at the Villa fans for the long term :).
He wasn't universally loved for removing Ron Saunders by not agreeing to the rollover contract he wanted.
Which is as true now as it was the first time you made it up.
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I'm related to William the Conqueror through Adam and Eve.
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This is why you will generally find many older Villa fans have more time for Doug. For all his faults, few of us have the same animosty or think of him having just been in it merely for his own financial gain.
It's not just the fact that like so many others he was in it for financial gain, (which of course worked) but my animosity mostly arises from his insatiable and ruthless desire for self promotion and agrandisement at the expense of others, even though I know he couldn't (and still can't) help it.
I've always thought Ellis wanted to be seen as Sir William Dugdale; war hero, country gent etc..
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Does the book include an apology for the sacking of Vic Crowe, one of the greatest managers the club ever had?
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I sit next to Harry Kartz's son, grandson and great-grandaughter every home game. I think that's what you call Villa through-and-through. Harry's 98 now.
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Does the book include an apology for the sacking of Vic Crowe, one of the greatest managers the club ever had?
He wasn't chairman then, and from what he said previously he thought Vic should have stayed but was his own worst enemy in terms of how he defended himself.
By coincidence I got a copy of the book today and the bits I've read are very interesting. One thing he touched on was Villa's supposed inability to sign local young Catholic players because Wolves had that particular market covered. It's the first I've heard of this; does anyone else know about it?
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One thing he touched on was Villa's supposed inability to sign local young Catholic players because Wolves had that particular market covered.
First I have heard that. They certainly didnt sign any more Jehovah Witness players.
(http://www.wolvesheroes.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/knowles-colour-copy-283x300.jpg)
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I sit next to Harry Kartz's son, grandson and great-grandaughter every home game. I think that's what you call Villa through-and-through. Harry's 98 now.
98 not out is a fine innings, good for him.
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Yes, Deadly Doug did the Dirty Deed on Vic Crowe. Doug always defended himself by pointing out that the sacking decision was unanimous.
Or, to put it another way, none of them knew what they were doing.
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Yes, Deadly Doug did the Dirty Deed on Vic Crowe. Doug always defended himself by pointing out that the sacking decision was unanimous.
Or, to put it another way, none of them knew what they were doing.
Vic was a lovely man, but would he have done what Saunders did?
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One thing he touched on was Villa's supposed inability to sign local young Catholic players because Wolves had that particular market covered.
First I have heard that. They certainly didnt sign any more Jehovah Witness players.
(http://www.wolvesheroes.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/knowles-colour-copy-283x300.jpg)
Remember this one old timers?
Jingle Bells, Dougan smells, McGarrys got no hair. Peter Knowles is saving souls and Wagstaff is a spare....
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Nice long write up for him in the Daily Mail
"An hour or so with Sir William is a treat. He may be old-fashioned, unfashionably posh and hold some fairly entrenched views, but he is also bold, clever, refreshing, wonderfully entertaining company and fabulously optimistic.
As he puts it: ‘I made it through the war, I’ve had two lovely wives, six children, a series of interesting jobs (and only been sacked once) and a very nice house to live in. I’m a lucky devil really.’"
...
"But the bit that will really get Cameron squirming are his tales of being arrested with members of the super-posh Bullingdon Club for throwing soot and water over a demonstration (and, by accident, a policeman). It was in support of Russia’s invasion of Finland and was led by Roy Jenkins and Tony Crosland, who both went on to become Labour Cabinet ministers.
‘The police sergeant was very indulgent with us and more or less apologised for the fact that someone would have to pay for his replacement uniform.’ Unlike his nephew, Sir William isn’t the sort to edit his views.
On the question of homecoming ceremonies for casualties of the recent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, he says: ‘I’m very sorry for anyone who gets killed, but this business about bringing them back and wheeling them through Wootton Bassett is not good for force morale.’
And superinjunctions? ‘If you want to misbehave, you have to be prepared to take the flak — the Duke of Wellington got it right when he said “publish and be damned”.’
‘The thing is, and the Labour Party underestimate it, but if you ask the working classes who they want to lead them, they prefer to be led by a duke,’ he said at his book launch party earlier this week. ‘I know it’s an unpopular thing to say these days, however I have learned this from my own experience.’"
The Daily Mail = Clicky (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1389275/Dave-Camerons-wicked-uncle-He-dreamed-PM--got-waylaid-claret-horses-flirty-petrol-pump-attendant.html#ixzz1Mw6IgGC5)