Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Archie on April 19, 2011, 10:54:25 AM
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I think it'd be interesting to discuss if the two last wins (although with average opponents) are or not consequence of some change in formation/tactics by Gerard Houllier.
Surely he has changed the formation, switching from 4-2-3-1 with Gabby exiliated on the wing, to a more effective 4-4-2 in which Gabby can have the role of protagonist that he has always had and that he deserves, as he has demonstrated with his late header against West Ham.
Apart from this, I think that other 2 factors had until now prevented us to reach the spot in the table that the value of the roster would have consented.
The first was playing a lot of players out of role: do you remember when Clark (a CB) played LB, Cuellar (another CB) RB, Gabby (a striker) winger, AJ7 (A winger) in the hole, etc?
With two fullbacks as fullbacks, Gabby upfront and AJ7 on the wing the team showed huge improvements, imo.
Obviously, another negative factor was Richard Dunne. I know that he still has a lot of fans that I don't want to offend being too harsh, so I will refrain to write my complete thoughts about this player that earns 50.000 a week despite of being one of the most error-prone player in the world. I'll limit to say that in Italian "Danno" means "Damage" ;) (nomen omen, said the ancient Romans ;D).
Well, at the end GH seems to have corrected something, he demonstrated that he is not stubborn like his fellow countryman Arsène Wenger that continues to repeat the same identical mistakes year by year; GH at least changed the formation that didn't work and stopped to make players to play out of role.
The next step that I expect is to see Cieran Clarke central back. . .
Thoughts?
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I think the formation has less to do with the positive results than GH winning the game of chicken against player power and their feeling of entitlement. I think GH finally won the battle of wills.
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By reverting to the players' favoured formation?[/devil'sadvocate]
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Or standing up to Young and making him play out wide not up front?
We were playing 4-4-2 essentially, but Young was not giving us anything useful. Now he is. Houllier deserves credit for having the guts to change things, and admitting he was wrong in the first place.
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I don't think you had to be anywhere near a football genius to work out that Gabby is not a winger. Further genius was not required to know that the squad we currently have is more suited to a 4-4-2 formation for most games. That's not to say there is anything wrong with the system that GH had us playing up until 3 or so weeks ago but what was wrong was that it wasn't effective enough.
At least GH finally realised it and made the change, where he got it wrong was the time it took him to figure that out. This is not a climb down by the manager, it's just common sense.
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By reverting to the players' favoured formation?[/devil'sadvocate]
Not really, our best player Ash has been moved back outside, he has said he likes playing centrally.
I think Houllier needs some credit, he saw Ash, Bent and Downing playing for England and has allowed them to bring that form back to Villa, by changing the formation he preferred.
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I'm pretty sure that Houllier said that he prefers Ash to play behind the striker, in the extended MOTD interview that's on the net.
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Although the formation has changed I don't think its as dramatic as people have made out. For large parts of the game on Saturday AY came into a central position and did well when he was there. In fact the second goal came about because he had come in from the wing and was able to pick the ball up after Downings shot was parried. I don't think that we do or should play a strict 4-4-2.
A somewhat unrelated point but its interesting how Luke Young looks a better left-back than right-back. Will it be the case that full-backs will start playing more on the opposite side - i.e. right-footers at left-back and so on - as has happened with wingers? If more and more wingers are cutting in on their stronger foot like Downing does then having a full back that can counter that on his stronger side makes some sense. L.Young being able to cut in and deliver the type of cross he did for Ben't goal is also an advantage.
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In the past the guy who played on the left wing was usually totally left footed so would always go to the byline on his left - this meant that you played a strong right sided full back - same for the left on the opposite side of course
In the modern game most players are equally gifted in both feet and thats why they are so interchangable on each wing (its not just us that do the swap over thing)
So itmakes sense to have FB's who are comfortable inside and outside
AS for Gabby on wing - i have mentioned a few times that due to the times we have had to play kids or players out of position at LB gabby's athletism meant that there was good coverage on that side
Anyhow - was it not MON who played him on the wing for a full season
I dont think formations are that rigid anymore - i would image that most teams have trained on several types of formation and can change at anytime during a game based onscore, others teams changes etc
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Could it possibly be that as all first team senior players are fit and playing it is showing in our performance.?
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Nothing to do with the quality of the opposition after all we have been beaten by some mediocre teams home and away since January. This has to be other factors such as Houllier learning, players realising the situation, selection and tactics such as Ash playing wide, players performance such as Petrov.
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I thought that this was titled "God changed his views....."
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I think that any time we see an upturn in form like this it's down to a few reasons:-
1. A better formation and team selection, in particular Ash wide and Luke Young at LB.
2. The spirit seems to be back in them that was sadly lacking previously.
3. Dunne and Collins back at CB after their 'injuries'.
Long may it continue!
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I think Luke Young has been great since getting back into the team,gets forward well,works well with Ash,always solid at the back.
Hope he stays after the summer.
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I dont think its tactical genuis. We scraped a 1-0 win against Newcastle and beat the hammers in 90 minute.
I am glad we are winning but its nothing to do with muppet Houiller
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Although the formation has changed I don't think its as dramatic as people have made out. For large parts of the game on Saturday AY came into a central position and did well when he was there. In fact the second goal came about because he had come in from the wing and was able to pick the ball up after Downings shot was parried. I don't think that we do or should play a strict 4-4-2.
A somewhat unrelated point but its interesting how Luke Young looks a better left-back than right-back. Will it be the case that full-backs will start playing more on the opposite side - i.e. right-footers at left-back and so on - as has happened with wingers? If more and more wingers are cutting in on their stronger foot like Downing does then having a full back that can counter that on his stronger side makes some sense. L.Young being able to cut in and deliver the type of cross he did for Ben't goal is also an advantage.
Agree on both points.
Although we're playing an extra striker it is a very fluid formation that still gives Young licence to pop up all over the pitch. Th
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Luke may or may not be a better left back than right back but for the balance of the team long term I would always choose a left footer at left back.
Wingers who cut inside are going into an area of the pitch where there are more defenders so it should be easier to defend.
I like Young as a player so it would be good to keep him next season but we are desperate for a new left back, does Warnock have a younger brother who is less home sick and can stay on his feet a bit more.
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I like Young as a player so it would be good to keep him next season but we are desperate for a new left back, does Warnock have a younger brother who is less home sick and can stay on his feet a bit more.
I'm sure Ray Wilkins would know if he did.
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Obviously the improvement in results is down to the appointment of Glen Roeder. I knew we were on to a winner there!!
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I'm pretty sure that Houllier said that he prefers Ash to play behind the striker, in the extended MOTD interview that's on the net.
Exactly, so Houllier has not been stubborn and rigid, he has adapted for the sake of the team.
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He's reverted to a much more MON Villa.
The players don't attempt to pass it half as much as they have done since GH has been in charge. They get it forward much quicker.
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He's reverted to a much more MON Villa.
The players don't attempt to pass it half as much as they have done since GH has been in charge. They get it forward much quicker.
exactly - GED tried to change too much too quickly. Back to (MON) basics will get the team more than safe - the time to change will be in the summer.
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I dont think its tactical genuis. We scraped a 1-0 win against Newcastle and beat the hammers in 90 minute.
I am glad we are winning but its nothing to do with muppet Houiller
So it's entirely his fault when we lose but nothing at all to do with him when we win??
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He's reverted to a much more MON Villa.
The players don't attempt to pass it half as much as they have done since GH has been in charge. They get it forward much quicker.
exactly - GED tried to change too much too quickly. Back to (MON) basics will get the team more than safe - the time to change will be in the summer.
Spot on. I've likened GH to a Bull in a china shop when he first arrived at Villa Park.
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He's reverted to a much more MON Villa.
The players don't attempt to pass it half as much as they have done since GH has been in charge. They get it forward much quicker.
exactly - GED tried to change too much too quickly. Back to (MON) basics will get the team more than safe - the time to change will be in the summer.
Spot on. I've likened GH to a Bull in a china shop when he first arrived at Villa Park.
Yeah - you could argue he should have come to this conclusion much sooner, but I'm just glad he got there before it was too late.
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Didn't see the West Ham game but was at the Newcastle game and form what I saw Gabby spent most of his time wide left, so I'm struggling to see where there was a change of formation. The main change recently is that now the injuries have cleared up GH has reverted to the more experienced members of the squad, Petrov, NRC, L Young, Dunne, Collins etc., sending Bannan and Delfounso on loan , and using Albrighton, Delph and Clarke as subs or more sparingly. I agree he tried to change too much too soon but his hand was forced a little with the injuries.
BTW Archie, I know English is not your first language but use of Americanism like "roster" instead of "squad" really grates. I hate it when I hear Wenger talking about offensive play and players when it's always been attacking play/ players. Savage and Barton, now they are offensive players but it has nowt to do with their attacking play.
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BTW Archie, I know English is not your first language but use of Americanism like "roster" instead of "squad" really grates. I hate it when I hear Wenger talking about offensive play and players when it's always been attacking play/ players. Savage and Barton, now they are offensive players but it has nowt to do with their attacking play.
I really didn't know it was an americanism, sorry for my poor English mate, I won't use this word in the future if it's not appropriate!
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There's nothing poor about your English Archie.
If you want to use roster, go ahead. We know what you mean by it.
Likewise, offensive is not incorrect when used in context to mean attacking.
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Agree, Archie's wording is perfectly fine. I think you're being a bit pernickity there ktvillan.
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I dont think its tactical genuis. We scraped a 1-0 win against Newcastle and beat the hammers in 90 minute.
I am glad we are winning but its nothing to do with muppet Houiller
So it's entirely his fault when we lose but nothing at all to do with him when we win??
Under Houlllier I wouldn't say that we've won any single game as a consequence of his inspirational leadership, or tactical acumen.
Conversely we have lost plenty as a consequence of his bizarre team selections and tactical ineptitude.
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I dont think its tactical genuis. We scraped a 1-0 win against Newcastle and beat the hammers in 90 minute.
I am glad we are winning but its nothing to do with muppet Houiller
So it's entirely his fault when we lose but nothing at all to do with him when we win??
Under Houlllier I wouldn't say that we've won any single game as a consequence of his inspirational leadership, or tactical acumen.
Conversely we have lost plenty as a consequence of his bizarre team selections and tactical ineptitude.
Houllier did sign Bent though, our previous manager would not have.
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He's reverted to a much more MON Villa.
The players don't attempt to pass it half as much as they have done since GH has been in charge. They get it forward much quicker.
exactly - GED tried to change too much too quickly. Back to (MON) basics will get the team more than safe - the time to change will be in the summer.
Spot on. I've likened GH to a Bull in a china shop when he first arrived at Villa Park.
Although I remember when he dropped Cuellar to bring fatty Dunne back into the side thinking that the only possible explanation was that Houllier didn't want to rock the boat or change too much too quickly.
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I dont think its tactical genuis. We scraped a 1-0 win against Newcastle and beat the hammers in 90 minute.
I am glad we are winning but its nothing to do with muppet Houiller
So it's entirely his fault when we lose but nothing at all to do with him when we win??
Under Houlllier I wouldn't say that we've won any single game as a consequence of his inspirational leadership, or tactical acumen.
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So changing our system over the last 3 games and accrueing 7 points in the process has nowt to do with Houllier ??
Many players in the press have mentioned a meeting with Houllier that has cleared the air and motivated the team ( including Collins)
I'm not Houlliers greatest fan but the upturn is as much down to him as the players IMO
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Although I remember when he dropped Cuellar to bring fatty Dunne back into the side thinking that the only possible explanation was that Houllier didn't want to rock the boat or change too much too quickly.
As has been mentioned on here before, the reason Carlos doesn't play more is that passing it the weakest part of his game, but something that Gezza values greatly.
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Agree, Archie's wording is perfectly fine. I think you're being a bit pernickity there ktvillan.
As long as you don't use the term 'score zone' regarding the penalty area!
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BTW Archie, I know English is not your first language but use of Americanism like "roster" instead of "squad" really grates. I hate it when I hear Wenger talking about offensive play and players when it's always been attacking play/ players. Savage and Barton, now they are offensive players but it has nowt to do with their attacking play.
I really didn't know it was an americanism, sorry for my poor English mate, I won't use this word in the future if it's not appropriate!
Your English is excellent Archie, grammatically there's no problem with it, I just hate the way americanisms are creeping into our language more and more and people just seem to accept it. Offensive is often used in a miltary context for attacking but was rarely if ever heard of in the context of football prior to the influx of foreign players and managers (particularly Wenger). It is annoying to me as someone calling football soccer. And I reckon there'd be a fair few Brits who wouldn't have a clue what you mean by roster if they had no interest in American sports. It is perhaps just me being a grumpy old git but in my Dee-fens (another teeth grater) I'd guess I'm not alone in disliking this tendency of blindly accepting American cultural influence.
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I'd guess I'm not alone in disliking this tendency of blindly accepting American cultural influence.
You're not alone. I agree with you on this.
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Whilst there has been a change in the style of play since the Wolves debacle which has led to some improvement, there has also been a change in luck more our way as well.
Everton's disallowed goal which would have put them 2-1 ahead as we would not have scored 20 secs later, Newcastle not having a good youngster upfront to chose the correct options and Nolan not playing, West Ham missing Parker and the ref ruling Dunnes push in our favour along with Can't Control having a duff match. Whilst it is not 100% in our favour (Evertons Pen and the Bent disallowed goals) it is still in our direction.
In previous matches almost every defensive howler was punished with a goal, recently it hasn't been.
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Thank you Ktvillan and to everyone, mates; I'm very happy (and lucky) to have the opportunity to learn certain details and shades of English language discussing with you about our beloved Villa. I know that a lot of people think English is easy to learn, whereas I think it's very, very difficult, so thank you to everyone for your precious suggestions.
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Thank you Ktvillan and to everyone, mates; I'm very happy (and lucky) to have the opportunity to learn certain details and shades of English language discussing with you about our beloved Villa. I know that a lot of people think English is easy to learn, whereas I think it's very, very difficult, so thank you to everyone for your precious suggestions.
Sounds good to me Archie!
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I'd guess I'm not alone in disliking this tendency of blindly accepting American cultural influence.
You're not alone. I agree with you on this.
Way to go!
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I'd guess I'm not alone in disliking this tendency of blindly accepting American cultural influence.
You're not alone. I agree with you on this.
Way to go!
I didn't realise Archie was Italian (poor observation, missed his location), I thought he was English (which I guess is a compliment on Archie's skills). With this in consideration I agree it was a bit of a fussy comment. My agreement is withdrawn.
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I don't see anything wrong with givng a friendly pointer to our European cousins in the ways of "proper" English rather than that bastardised version from across the pond. I did acknowledge that it wasn't Archie's first language and he appears to have accepted the comments in the enlightening spirit in which they were intended. Good man Archie. Whereas I despair of some of the native speakers on here who seem to think terms like "must of" and "could of" are part of the English language . They are just ignorant gits.
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I bet Archie's English is better than the vast majority of this site's Italian.
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As far as I know "could of" is part of established Brummigam dialect. Everyone I knew growing up used it.
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As far as I know "could of" is part of established Brummigam dialect. Everyone I knew growing up used it.
Possibly, but more likely this. http://wsu.edu/~brians/errors/couldof.html
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I bet Archie's English is better than the vast majority of this site's Italian.
Archie's English is better than the vast majority of this site's English.
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Oui.
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Isn't the upturn in results because we've become vaguely competent at defending set pieces? Of course we've played some good stuff going forward but by not giving away soft goals that now counts for something.
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It helps having all the first team available for selection particulary the defenders
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It helps having all the first team available for selection particulary the defenders
It helps that someone took a look at some of the videos from last season and figured out how to use this squad to win a couple of games.
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It helps having all the first team available for selection particulary the defenders
It helps that someone took a look at some of the videos from last season and figured out how to use this squad to win a couple of games.
Glen Roeder?
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In my opinion, we either go back to playing the passing style that he brought in, or he leaves now. He's no good for us trying to play playing MON football.
I also think we looked, on occasions, very good when passing the ball and only lost due to some unfortunate mistakes. Either way, he has to make the decision. Stay or go.