Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: dave.woodhall on April 15, 2011, 04:19:03 PM
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I've just remembered that it's the 22nd anniversary of Hillsborough today.
May they rest in peace and may justice eventually prevail.
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RIP.
Anyone at Norwich the week after? That was a strange day - and not just because it was Norwich.
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Didn't Derek Mountfield score an og?
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RIP
Never again.
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RIP
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May they rest in peace and may justice eventually prevail.
This
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Agreed. RIP Devastating tragedy.
On a related note a freing is telling me that MP's are being petitioned and petitioning for Dalgliesh to be knighted due to his support with regards to 'Justice for the 96'. This baffles me slightly as I think the medical staff or family members deserve it more.
The cynic in me wonders why, if they wanted him knighted, they are doing it now rather than a couple of years ago......ie if he was not the current manager, would they be pusing for it.
Once again I must reiterate. terrible tragedy.
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Still sends a chill through me every time I think about it.
It could have been anyone who stood on an away terrace in the 70s and 80s.
Rest In Peace and may you get the justice you deserve.
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R.I.P
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RIP
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RIP I also hope that the families get the justice they are looking for.
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Yes, they had a minutes silence and black armbands at anfield the other day, sad, RIP
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R.I.P
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Until South Yorkshire Police stop covering things up,the 96 will never get justice.If they do get justice it will be far to late for most.It is the British way.
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Those of us who were football supporters through the 80s should never forget. That could, on another day, so easily have been us.
Justice will probably never be done. Not in the sense that we understand. Some future Home Secretary in 50 years time might make same meaningless pronouncement when everyone directly effected is long since gone. Perhaps it is just enough to hope that whilst shielded before and since by the might of his former employers, David Duckenfield is haunted by his actions every day.
And that the Scouse fatwa against Kelvin McKenzie remains in place. .
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Still sends a chill through me every time I think about it.
It could have been anyone who stood on an away terrace in the 70s and 80s.
Rest In Peace and may you get the justice you deserve.
Seconded. I hate to say it but if had been any other sport, the truth would have come out through a full, open enquiry. The problem was/is, they were only football supporters. I really hope the families get closure on this in the very near future. Twenty two years is a shocking amount of time to wait.
RIP.
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R.I.P.
Justice for the 96.
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West Ham away? Forest? It could have been us both before and after that day.
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Rest in peace.
Justice for the 96!
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Resonates for anybody who remembers that day because as said it could have been us. Justice one day.
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I heard Swindon was a dicey affair too.
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Justice for the 96. There but for the grace of God go I. And quite a few others I suspect.
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I heard Swindon was a dicey affair too.
as was Grimsby FA Cup 3rd Rd 86 / 87 ?
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RIP.....
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Any one of us.
As football supporters I suggest you read the Taylor report into what happened that day.
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R.I.P all of them. I remember the day well and it was horrific.
To be honest, i'm not keen on the word Justice. Answers and Closure yes which is what they deserve and should have had by now
, but Justice sounds too much like revenge to me. I'm sure others will disagree with me though and given the delicate nature of the subject, that's fair enough.
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I heard Swindon was a dicey affair too.
as was Grimsby FA Cup 3rd Rd 86 / 87 ?
1994. There was a bit of a crush in the first few minutes.
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Still sends a chill through me every time I think about it.
It could have been anyone who stood on an away terrace in the 70s and 80s.
Rest In Peace and may you get the justice you deserve.
Seconded. I hate to say it but if had been any other sport, the truth would have come out through a full, open enquiry. The problem was/is, they were only football supporters. I really hope the families get closure on this in the very near future. Twenty two years is a shocking amount of time to wait.
RIP.
The next report from the Hillsborough Independent Panel that was set up by the last government will settle most things. The families finally have access to all records and documents from central government, local government and public agencies including the police, ambulance service, fire service, coroner and Sheffield City Council. They have full disclosure and have been given exemption from the 30 year rule with very few exceptions.
There's none of this stopping at 15:15 bollocks, it covers everything including the stuff around the Taylor report, the Stuart-Smith review in 1998-99 and the private prosecution in 2000.
The families are happy with the the panel led by the Bishop of Liverpool and have a direct input into how the information is released. The initial findings must be due for release pretty soon.
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Still sends a chill through me every time I think about it.
It could have been anyone who stood on an away terrace in the 70s and 80s.
Rest In Peace and may you get the justice you deserve.
Seconded. I hate to say it but if had been any other sport, the truth would have come out through a full, open enquiry. The problem was/is, they were only football supporters. I really hope the families get closure on this in the very near future. Twenty two years is a shocking amount of time to wait.
RIP.
The next report from the Hillsborough Independent Panel that was set up by the last government will settle most things. The families finally have access to all records and documents from central government, local government and public agencies including the police, ambulance service, fire service, coroner and Sheffield City Council. They have full disclosure and have been given exemption from the 30 year rule with very few exceptions.
There's none of this stopping at 15:15 bollocks, it covers everything including the stuff around the Taylor report, the Stuart-Smith review in 1998-99 and the private prosecution in 2000.
The families are happy with the the panel led by the Bishop of Liverpool and have a direct input into how the information is released. The initial findings must be due for release pretty soon.
Good news for all the families involved.
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RIP. Can't think of anything else to say that hasn't already been said.
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Echo the sentiments above and would add my admiration to the families and other Liverpool fans who have refused to let this drop.
RIP.
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Thẹ FA always seem to manage to escape Scott free. Who made thẹ decision to put Liverpool, average attendance over 40,000, in thẹ Leppings Lane end, and Forrest, average attendance approx 25000, in thẹ Kop End. Surely it should have been thẹ other way around?
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Thẹ FA always seem to manage to escape Scott free. Who made thẹ decision to put Liverpool, average attendance over 40,000, in thẹ Leppings Lane end, and Forrest, average attendance approx 25000, in thẹ Kop End. Surely it should have been thẹ other way around?
I don't think that it was an FA decision. More likely to have been a decision taken by the police on traffic control grounds.
RIP to the 96 and a heartfelt wish that the families finally receive the justice that is now long overdue.
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96 people went to watch their beloved football team and was killed in tragic circumstances, one of the most haunting days in the footballing calender
RIP
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Rest In Peace
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Thẹ FA always seem to manage to escape Scott free. Who made thẹ decision to put Liverpool, average attendance over 40,000, in thẹ Leppings Lane end, and Forrest, average attendance approx 25000, in thẹ Kop End. Surely it should have been thẹ other way around?
I don't think that it was an FA decision. More likely to have been a decision taken by the police on traffic control grounds.
RIP to the 96 and a heartfelt wish that the families finally receive the justice that is now long overdue.
The ticket distribution was based on the control of fans and the area they travel from, Forest from the south, Liverpool from the north. To safely segregate the ground the Forest section was larger than Liverpools. If they had swapped they would've had the potential for trouble as the fans passed each other, and back then this was the prime motivation for the arrangements on the day. The same situation applied for most semi's at neutral grounds including Villa Park.
Ticket allocation in games such as this should always be based on the fact that the venue is neutral, so tickets should, where possible, be distributed equally, regardless of average attendance.
Twelve months earlier, the same teams competed a semi-final at the same venue without incident and with identical allocations but crucially a ticket check some way from the Liverpool end was not utilised on the second occasion allowing thousands of ticketless fans to get close to the Leppings Lane entrance and spark the subsequent chain of events.
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I have nothing but sympathy for those who dies - it was a terible tragedy.
I do want to play devil's advocate on this blame and finger pointing though - some poeple have argued that the thousands of ticketless Liverpool fans who rushed the gate might be at least partially resonsible. It's difficult to argue that this arguement doesn't have a degree of merit. I notice Liverpool fans also turned up in Istanbul and stole tickets from the hands of their fellow supporers as they were being frisked outside the ground and many fans with valid tickets weren't able to watch the game. Have they learned nothing?
The official report into Hillsboro blamed mainly the police and the authoirities - Liverpool fans back this report and have used it in their defence stating. A similar independent report into Hysel blames mainly Liverpool fans and this report has been disputed by the Liverpool fans, pick and chooe the reports you like eh guys?
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How many times have you been to a Villa game and turned up at kick off or just after? the bigger the game the more the party mood the more drink consumed and arrival at the ground will be later rather than sooner. On top of that countless fans without tickets will also turn up trying to get into the ground. That has happened since time immemorial - look at the first final at Wembley. The question is, knowing this why were the police seemingly so ill prepared?
Justice would be ideal in an ideal world but this was a chain of events with many people at fault. The legacy of the disaster rather than the continued fight for justice should be the denouement of Hillsborough and the improvement in safety for all of us. Lessons were learned and it took 96 people to die to get there.
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One of those days like 9/11 where you remember exactly when you realised the enormity of the dreadful events unfolding. I'll never forget the words of that fat ****** UEFA boss immediately afterwards, something like "once again it is English football, and once again it is Liverpool fans." Disgraceful.
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I have nothing but sympathy for those who dies - it was a terible tragedy.
I do want to play devil's advocate on this blame and finger pointing though - some poeple have argued that the thousands of ticketless Liverpool fans who rushed the gate might be at least partially resonsible. It's difficult to argue that this arguement doesn't have a degree of merit. I notice Liverpool fans also turned up in Istanbul and stole tickets from the hands of their fellow supporers as they were being frisked outside the ground and many fans with valid tickets weren't able to watch the game. Have they learned nothing?
The official report into Hillsboro blamed mainly the police and the authoirities - Liverpool fans back this report and have used it in their defence stating. A similar independent report into Hysel blames mainly Liverpool fans and this report has been disputed by the Liverpool fans, pick and chooe the reports you like eh guys?
It is the responsibility of the Police and the authorities to implement crowd control and as such take into account that such behaviour may not be orderly and responsible, this is the case for all major events. That is not to exonerate the actions of certain fans, but at West Ham, Ipswich in '87 and at Swindon in '88, the majority of Villa fans that I encountered were just trying to get into the ground to watch the game yet encountered similar scenes, albiet on a smaller scale than those at Hillsborough.
For the authorities to blame the supporters is just an abdication of their responsibility
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I have nothing but sympathy for those who dies - it was a terible tragedy.
I do want to play devil's advocate on this blame and finger pointing though - some poeple have argued that the thousands of ticketless Liverpool fans who rushed the gate might be at least partially resonsible. It's difficult to argue that this arguement doesn't have a degree of merit. I notice Liverpool fans also turned up in Istanbul and stole tickets from the hands of their fellow supporers as they were being frisked outside the ground and many fans with valid tickets weren't able to watch the game. Have they learned nothing?
The official report into Hillsboro blamed mainly the police and the authoirities - Liverpool fans back this report and have used it in their defence stating. A similar independent report into Hysel blames mainly Liverpool fans and this report has been disputed by the Liverpool fans, pick and chooe the reports you like eh guys?
That lie about thousands of ticketless fans is seemingly still going strong after more than 20 years now, even though the Taylor Report completely discounted ticketless fans as a contributory factor to the Hillsborough Disaster.
If you're going to amuse yourself by playing Devil's advocate about 96 football fans being crushed to death, whose only contributory factor was that they bought a ticket to see their team play, at least have the decency to find some basic fucking facts.
The story that thousands of ticketless fans had stormed the gates was the first and biggest unforgivable lie that the South Yorkshire police peddled. It formed the basis for the completely discredited initial newspaper reports, which have haunted the families for all this time.
People should never forget the incompetence, corruption and brutality that surrounded many games back then. If you want to understand the attitude of the police and authorities that day you should just consider for a moment the experience of Margeret Aspinall. She was ushered into a room where the body of her 18 year old son James was laid out. She wanted to hold her boy and as illogical as it sounds, she wanted to put a coat on him because she wanted him to be warm. She was carried out of the room in screaming hysterics having being told "sorry love, he doesn't belong to you now, he belongs to the coroner".
We already know some of the contributory factors, we also know some things that were not contributory factors e.g. ticketless fans. Hopefully the Hillsborough Independent Panel will provide the full picture. But please, lets stamp out the cruel lie that the people who died or their fellow supporters were responsible for what happened, they weren't.
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RIP
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I am not trying to 'amuse myself by playing devil's advocate' but stimulate discussion. I have not read the full Taylor report but is it a fact that ticketless fans did turn up late and rush in to an open gate thus causing over crowding or not? I agree that the police/ authorities should shoulder most of the blame but in some people's view not all. This may b e inconsistent with the official report but we aren't all bound to agree with official reports are we? The main thrust of my post was to point out inconsistencies in the views and actions of the Liverpool fans. How many of them would say never again after Hillsboro but turned up in Istanbul and did the same thing? No blame on the fans? I disagree.
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Lovejoy, rather than post offensive speculation I suggest you do some basic research. It's all on the Internet so you don't have to put yourself out.
The Taylor report nailed the lies and the reason I believe is that I am old enough to remember those times, the way football fans were treated by the police and the dangerous state of so many grounds. People died because of a lack of crowd control which allowed too many people into the central pens while other parts of the stand still had spaces.
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I am not trying to 'amuse myself by playing devil's advocate' but stimulate discussion. I have not read the full Taylor report but is it a fact that ticketless fans did turn up late and rush in to an open gate thus causing over crowding or not? I agree that the police/ authorities should shoulder most of the blame but in some people's view not all. This may b e inconsistent with the official report but we aren't all bound to agree with official reports are we? The main thrust of my post was to point out inconsistencies in the views and actions of the Liverpool fans. How many of them would say never again after Hillsboro but turned up in Istanbul and did the same thing? No blame on the fans? I disagree.
Ticketless fans turned up to every game back then. I myself used to run around Villa Park as kid trying to sneak in wherever I could when I couldn't afford or didn't want to pay in. Lord Taylor said that there were some fans without tickets but there wasn't a large body of them, probably not 100s. He specifically said that ticketless fans were not a contributory factor. So no, it is not a fact that ticketless fans did turn up late and rush in to an open gate thus causing the overcrowding. Those people would have died if there had not been a single fan without a ticket.
All of the Liverpool supporters who had tickets for the Main Stand as well as those with tickets for the Leppings Lane stand were being channelled through the Leppings Lane turnstiles. There had been roadworks on the motorway that had delayed all of the supporters travelling from Merseyside and because a decision was taken to start the game with thousands still outside, the police at the Leppings Lane turnstiles decided to open a gate that led directly into that central enclosure. The signs inside the ground were out of date and contradictory, the natural reaction of the Liverpool supporters would have been to head straight ahead into pens 3 and 4. If Villa or any other big club had been at Hillsborough that day, there is no reason to imagine the outcome would have been any different.
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Just a question? not being offensive but why do we have this every year and nothing 'national' regarding for instance The Bradford fire victims?
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From what I remember about the Taylor report, it wasn't ticketless fans, but the build up of fans arriving just before the kick-off with too few turnstiles open to accommodate them all at Leppings Lane.
Pressure was building up outside, with the atmosphere turning to irritation/anger as the kick off approached. There was also crushing outside.
The Police opened a large gate to ease the pressure and let people in. This surge wasn't directed inside the ground and so the fans headed for the most obvious entrance to the terrace, which was the tunnel leading to the already full pens at the Leppings Lane.
It was a sad chain of events that could be traced back to the day the teams were drawn together.
As for justice and blame there are too many groups that could have responsibility attached, the Police, the FA, the clubs involved, the Government of the day and football fans, whose behaviour around the country and Europe had led the authorities to view them in worse possible light at every occasion.
It was a horrible sickening day and I still can remember it as if it was yesterday.
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Just a question? not being offensive but why do we have this every year and nothing 'national' regarding for instance The Bradford fire victims?
I think this was the one that changed football completely wwith regards to all seter, all tickets, no gates etc. The Bradford fire was tragic, 4 minutes it took for the stand to burn down, all disasters deserve huge recognition and each one is a terrible tragedy
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Just a question? not being offensive but why do we have this every year and nothing 'national' regarding for instance The Bradford fire victims?
Because the reasons for the Bradford disaster are all in the open, rubbish allowed to collect under a wooden stand and the disasterous decision to padlock fire exits at the back of the stand.
There was also a better response to Bradford from the emergency services.
Nobody has tried to shift the blame for Bradford on anyone else, it was what it was, a tragic accident.
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The tragedy happened because all the Police were interested in was crowd control not crowd safety.
What other was there for just standing there once the crush was building up and forcing people back into the pens?
They acted like the scum they'd trained to be. The only difference is that they lied about everything and have done everything to cover it up.
I also have no idea that how you can prove that ticket less fans rushed and open gate. Since no one was checking the tickets how could it be proved they didn't have one? It can't. It was just another lie.
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Why dont we get memorial services for the Bradford fire victims though?
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The tragedy happened because all the Police were interested in was crowd control not crowd safety.
What other was there for just standing there once the crush was building up and forcing people back into the pens?
They acted like the scum they'd trained to be. The only difference is that they lied about everything and have done everything to cover it up.
I also have no idea that how you can prove that ticket less fans rushed and open gate. Since no one was checking the tickets how could it be proved they didn't have one? It can't. It was just another lie.
I know I might have only 126 posts in 6 years,but is your post not a bit libellous ?
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Why dont we get memorial services for the Bradford fire victims though?
They do.
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The tragedy happened because all the Police were interested in was crowd control not crowd safety.
What other was there for just standing there once the crush was building up and forcing people back into the pens?
They acted like the scum they'd trained to be. The only difference is that they lied about everything and have done everything to cover it up.
I also have no idea that how you can prove that ticket less fans rushed and open gate. Since no one was checking the tickets how could it be proved they didn't have one? It can't. It was just another lie.
I know I might have only 126 posts in 6 years,but is your post not a bit libellous ?
If David Duckinfield was intersted in sueing, I'd happily stand in the busiest part of the country handing out photocopies of this in fluorescent bold capitals while reading it out through a loudhailer.
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The tragedy happened because all the Police were interested in was crowd control not crowd safety.
What other was there for just standing there once the crush was building up and forcing people back into the pens?
They acted like the scum they'd trained to be. The only difference is that they lied about everything and have done everything to cover it up.
I also have no idea that how you can prove that ticket less fans rushed and open gate. Since no one was checking the tickets how could it be proved they didn't have one? It can't. It was just another lie.
I'd like to hear from an ex police man who used to police football in the 70s and 80s to see what he would make of this post. From what I've read and seen and heard I suspect it wasn't an easy job and the police were more sinned against than sinners. Why does this type of discussion always turn a blind eye to the culpability of fans in all this and specifically why the police felt the need to herd people around - I am not talikng about Hillsboro specifically here but football supporters in the 70s and 80s generally.
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The tragedy happened because all the Police were interested in was crowd control not crowd safety.
What other was there for just standing there once the crush was building up and forcing people back into the pens?
They acted like the scum they'd trained to be. The only difference is that they lied about everything and have done everything to cover it up.
I also have no idea that how you can prove that ticket less fans rushed and open gate. Since no one was checking the tickets how could it be proved they didn't have one? It can't. It was just another lie.
I'd like to hear from an ex police man who used to police football in the 70s and 80s to see what he would make of this post. From what I've read and seen and heard I suspect it wasn't an easy job and the police were more sinned against than sinners. Why does this type of discussion always turn a blind eye to the culpability of fans in all this and specifically why the police felt the need to herd people around - I am not talikng about Hillsboro specifically here but football supporters in the 70s and 80s generally.
I could tell you what Peter Garratt, Liverpool supporter and former policeman says. It's much the same as we do. To re-re-re-re-rereiterate, the supporters on the day were about 1% to blame, if that.
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could you imagine if they'd had this kettling tactic back then. could have been thousands killed by the time they realised
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RIP
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Fair play to all those who have heroically stuck to the task of keeping the campaign alive.
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Why dont we get memorial services for the Bradford fire victims though?
It's a good point.This is a horrible thing to say but true.
Liverpool were the worlds biggest club at the time.
I would think more people thought the Valley hosted Rugby League than football.
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Why dont we get memorial services for the Bradford fire victims though?
It's a good point.This is a horrible thing to say but true.
Liverpool were the worlds biggest club at the time.
I would think more people thought the Valley hosted Rugby League than football.
There's an annual memorial service for the Bradford victims.
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Why dont we get memorial services for the Bradford fire victims though?
It's a good point.This is a horrible thing to say but true.
Liverpool were the worlds biggest club at the time.
I would think more people thought the Valley hosted Rugby League than football.
There's an annual memorial service for the Bradford victims.
It get nowhere near as much coverage though.
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Why dont we get memorial services for the Bradford fire victims though?
It's a good point.This is a horrible thing to say but true.
Liverpool were the worlds biggest club at the time.
I would think more people thought the Valley hosted Rugby League than football.
There's an annual memorial service for the Bradford victims.
It get nowhere near as much coverage though.
It might not get as much coverage but its not about coverage, its about those families being able to pay their respects to their loved ones.
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There are two main reasons why Hillsborough is better remembered than Bradford - the Valley Parade disaster is over in a way Hillsborough will never be until justice is done, and everyone who attended a game in that period knows it could have been any of us. Again, you don't get that feeling about Bradford.
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I have read a number of books on Hillsborough and one of the key factors was that Duckenfield was in charge of a large scale football match for the first time. He also did not use the previous year's experience as a guide where there was much better crowd control and filtering of supporters prior to reaching the Leppings Lane turnstiles.
Once the crush outside was becoming dangerous in the minutes up to kick-off, the police at the turnstiles asked for permission for the gates to be opened. Even then, once Duckenfield made that decision (which he subsequently lied about), the tragedy could have been avoided if he had put a line of policeman in front of the tunnel leading to the central pen.
As it was, several hundred fans walked straight down the tunnel to a pen that was already seriously overcrowded and where people were already in serious distress prior to kick-off.
As others have said, the police decisions on that day reflected an overriding objective of crowd control rather than crowd safety and that entrenched approach largely contributed to the disaster.
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The passing of the years have never dampened my shock over that day, my disgust over the behaviour of the police, subsequent press reaction and the realisation that it could so easily have been any of us who went home and away with Villa in the 1980’s. I still can recall like yesterday my shock as the BBC cut to the live pictures from Hillsborough and the true scale of what was happening was suddenly beamed into my parents living on a gloriously sunny day.
A school friend of mine was a Forest fan and was of course there. It deeply, deeply affected him and he was wracked with guilt over the fact that at first the Forest fans merely suspected another crowd riot until the Liverpool fans started making makeshift gurneys to ferry the injured and dying form Leppings Lane.
The bottom line is that 96 football fans like me and you, went out on a sunny day to watch their football team play and never came back. Had we as football fans been treated like human beings instead of being branded as troublemakers and scum by Thatcher and her government, I doubt this would have occurred.
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The reason for fans being treated like scum wasn't some sort of class agenda against football fans, but the fact for the best part of 20 years English football had a large minority of idiots who had spent many a Saturday afternoon wrecking pubs, trains, coaches and each other, let alone the European cities and cross channel ferries that were regularly destroyed too.
This culminated in the death of a fan at St Andrews, in the largest riot ever seen at a English football ground where 250+ police were taken to hospital and Heysel a week or so later where 39 Juventus fans were killed.
While this doesn't in anyway excuse the actions (or lack of them) of the police at Hillsborough it goes some way to explain why they were slow to react to an entirely different problem that was occurring in front of them.
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There are two main reasons why Hillsborough is better remembered than Bradford - the Valley Parade disaster is over in a way Hillsborough will never be until justice is done, and everyone who attended a game in that period knows it could have been any of us. Again, you don't get that feeling about Bradford.
Although Bradford could have happened to us due to the wooden structures at a lot of grounds at the time. I only know of Wolves having to close a stand but I'm sure a lot of others probably did as well after the disaster.
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There are two main reasons why Hillsborough is better remembered than Bradford - the Valley Parade disaster is over in a way Hillsborough will never be until justice is done, and everyone who attended a game in that period knows it could have been any of us. Again, you don't get that feeling about Bradford.
Although Bradford could have happened to us due to the wooden structures at a lot of grounds at the time. I only know of Wolves having to close a stand but I'm sure a lot of others probably did as well after the disaster.
I don't think anyone could hark back to an incident they'd personally experienced where they'd felt in imminent danger of being burned alive. Many of us had been involved in a crush on terraces.
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There are two main reasons why Hillsborough is better remembered than Bradford - the Valley Parade disaster is over in a way Hillsborough will never be until justice is done, and everyone who attended a game in that period knows it could have been any of us. Again, you don't get that feeling about Bradford.
Although Bradford could have happened to us due to the wooden structures at a lot of grounds at the time. I only know of Wolves having to close a stand but I'm sure a lot of others probably did as well after the disaster.
I don't think anyone could hark back to an incident they'd personally experienced where they'd felt in imminent danger of being burned alive. Many of us had been involved in a crush on terraces.
No but it could have happened at any time back in the day and Bradford was the unlucky team it did happen too. The difference is you were intimately aware of feeling overcrowded but not aware if the person behind you had dropped a cigarette through the floorboards of the stand which just missed a pile of rubbish. (which is pretty much the point you were making anyway at the start, I was just adding that it could have happened at any of the wooden stands).
As a slight aside, did Villa do anything special with the old Trinity to allow it to stay open as that was a Wooden base wasn't it?
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But none of us had never been in a fire, or had any idea how one could start. We'd all been in crushed and we all knew what caused them.
All the burnable materials in Trinity Rd were heavily fireproofed. I still wouldn't have fancied testing it though.
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The point is, it was obvious what caused Bradford, and lessons were easily learned, the only controversy was the locked fire exits at the back of the stand.
No one wanted to admit responsibility for Hillsborough, easier to blame the scum that followed football.
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I think what resonates more than anything is exactly what has been said, those of us who were supporters at the time - actively following the club home and away - have been in crushes rather than fires, which is what makes this all to real for so many. West ham away and even at Hillsborough a few months before the semi-final.
As much as anyone who saw the pictures of what happened it feels like a stand alone tragedy as it wasn't a tragedy waiting to happen, unlike Hillsborough. there were plenty of preambles to the semi-final which you couldn't say for bradford. in that situation its death or nothing.
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I was re-reading Simon Inglis's first "Football Grounds of..." a few weeks ago ( a masterpiece, by the way, written in 1983) and he actually comments on the amount of combustable rubbish piled up under the wooden seats at Valley Parade.
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Saw the photos of the Liverpool supporters with their faces being pushed up against the bars of the fences again yesterday, truly heartbreaking. Some families lost more than one member, all because they were unlucky enough to get into the ground first.
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Still sickens me to this day.
I recall watching the match being stopped in The Jewellers Arms, Hockley, so it must have been a Villa home game that day.
Nobody at the time realised how serious the situation was.
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We weren't at home, Everton were in the other semi-final at Villa Park that day.
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We weren't at home, Everton were in the other semi-final at Villa Park that day.
Christ knows what I was doing in there then.
I only used to drink in there on match days.
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And how readily we put ourselves in harm's way. This made me think back to Nottingham Forest vs Swindon in 1967. It was an F.A. Cup 5th round second replay at Villa Park. Goodness knows why I went, but there were nearly 53,000 (for a 5th round replay????) in the ground and shops had been shut early in Nottingham to allow fans to go (Monday night game).
The Holte End was utterly rammed with Forest fans, no ticketing, and I paid at the turnstile - all of 15, 5' 2" - all I really saw of the game were fleeting glimpses as I was swept around most of the lower right between Forest fans, often feet off the ground, dependent entirely on men holding me up from being trampled on the floor. I remember being scared witless and at the same time excited. Stupid twat.
Forest won 3-0 (I found out afterwards).
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Went to Hillsborough myself that season. First time at that ground. Thẹ Leppings lane end was an accident waiting to happen. Villa took approx 3000, and most a large proportion were in that central pen. Totally rammed. Couldn't see a thing first half. It was only during half time that people worked out how to enter thẹ side pens, and after that it was much better. Dread to think what it must have been like on that day.
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Saw the photos of the Liverpool supporters with their faces being pushed up against the bars of the fences again yesterday, truly heartbreaking. Some families lost more than one member, all because they were unlucky enough to get into the ground first.
It wasn't just the people at the front who got crushed. There were deaths in the tunnel as well.
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That was one of the other problems with Leppings Lane. The paddock had a capacity of something like 6000, but that was for the whole paddock. There was no way of knowing how many people were in each of the bays, or when one was full to capacity, which is was when the gates were opened outside.
Also, unlike the terracing at the front of the North Stand at the time, there was no passage-way at the back that easily allowed people to move from one bay to the next.
There were a number of points where the disaster could have been avoided. Even something as simple as a couple of stewards at the mouth of the tunnel could well have stopped it happening.
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That was one of the other problems with Leppings Lane. The paddock had a capacity of something like 6000, but that was for the whole paddock. There was no way of knowing how many people were in each of the bays, or when one was full to capacity, which is was when the gates were opened outside.
Also, unlike the terracing at the front of the North Stand at the time, there was no passage-way at the back that easily allowed people to move from one bay to the next.
There were a number of points where the disaster could have been avoided. Even something as simple as a couple of stewards at the mouth of the tunnel could well have stopped it happening.
One more point as well. Can you, or anyone else, think of any other ground where you could walk from the turnstile to the top of the terrace without having to go up a single step? Even something as small as that might have encouraged people to go to the sides rather than through the tunnel.
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What strikes me now when I look back is how well organised the Holte was in comparison.
Following the revamp in the mid-70's that created the central corridor right up the middle of the terrace, I always felt reasonably safe. Plenty of stweards and police. It was reasonably easy to get in and out and how Leppings Lane must have seemed in comparison I really cannot imagine.
The fact that 96 fellow football fans lost their lives was a sickening tragedy. The tragedy has been made so much worse by the fact that 22 years later justice has not prevailed.
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Not in a ground of that size.
That is the sad thing about what happened, so many relatively minor factors contributed to the deaths of innocent fans.
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Yep, the Holte in 1989 was pretty much a text book case of how to design a large terrace.
Lowered circulation routes at the back of each third.
Crush barriers running fully across the terracing.
Central channel splitting the stand.
Plenty of entrances onto the terrace.
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My uncle took my cousin for his 8th birthday to hillsborough to watch their beloved Liverpool.They were in the seats at the Leppings Lane end of the ground.Not once were they asked to show their tickets and several other people i know gained entrance to the ground without showing their ticket.Luckily my relatives found there way to their seats and friends of mine decided to go to the side pens.They were the lucky ones.No one should have experienced what happened that day let alone an EIGHT year old boy who saw dead bodies lying on the floor of the tunnel on the way out.As peope have said previously it could of been any big club,including us.
I went over to Anfield for the 20th anniversary and what struck me was the rawness of it all,even now.The families and everyone involved that day deserve justice and i certainly hope they get it.
Justice for the 96. RIP
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Breaking news on BBC News website that the government have been ordered to release confidential files about Hillsborough.
Perhaps the 96 and there families will finally get the justice that they deserve.
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My grandad started taking me to the Villa the season after Hillsborough (my first actual game at VP was days after the tragedy) and all the times I stood on the Holte, I never, ever had the slightest sense of any danger.
I still find the concept of ninety-six people going to watch a football match and not going home completely heartbreaking, regardless of their affiliation.
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My dad took me upto Celtic for the first game for Liverpool afterwards. He wanted to go because even though it was Liverpool, it could have been anyone of us. Liverpool won 4-0 not that it matters but the atmosphere will always stay with me. My dad still has the programme.
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remember seeing it all unfold on grandstand -a truly awful event for liverpool and for football-justice should have been done long before now.
r.i.p.