Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Concrete John on March 31, 2011, 04:49:49 PM
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Make of this what you will:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/9441854.stm
My own opinion is that football is a business where morality goes out the window, so if a club will employ violent thugs, alcoholics and granny shaggers, then the colour of a manager's skin won't matter to them aslong as they win!
Although I know very little about this 'Rooney Rule' from America, I also don't like the use of the phrase 'as of right'.
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I honestly dont believe that black managers are not getting opportunties because of the colour of their skin at all.
Paul Ince was given a chance at Blackburn and was crap. This Steve Kean has been given a go and he is crap. I'm sure Blackburn fans wont point to Paul Ince's skin colour for the reason he didn't last very long.
The same goes for black referees and black goalkeepers which also seem in very short supply in the top few divisions.
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With the possible exception of giving a helping hand to people with disabitilties I've no time for so-called "positive discrimination"*. It's still discrimination whatever adjective you stick in front of it. Football is one of the most racially integrated sports around. Black players proliferate because they have the talent. I don't see why that wouldn't extend to coaches and managers - if they have the talent. If Ince had actually been any good at Blackburn he's still be there, or somewhere better.
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When you think about it; most managers are ex-players from a generation of predominantly white players. Due to the influx of black players in the last 10/15 years or so, I believe that in the future their will be plenty of black managers.
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I don't mind the colour of a person's skin as long as they are the best man for the job that's all that matters but i know what you are saying John me myself i would love Ian Taylor to be our manager one day.
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What does BFR say about this matter? (Tee hee)
I do agree though that in the next couple of decades there'll be a rise, and it's just a natural result of having more black players in football. Until the 80's it was quite a rarity. Even in the 80's there weren't many black players.
Perhaps we'll also see more Pakistani players breaking through in the next decade as well.
But yeah, I don't think there's much of a problem to be honest. Football is very culturally diverse in this country.
Oh and another vote for Ian Taylor as a future Villa boss. I'd love to see him given the shot.
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No ones disputing that Ince was shite, what people are saying is they're not getting the same chances white managers are, and it's probably more subconcious than an act of discrimination.
When footballers are retired, you tend to assume they'll either go into TV work, coaching or a managerial position. With black footballers people don't tend to associate them with management, and maybe this scheme will change it, slowly.
Much the same way people don't tend to associate women with being a mechanic for example. Except the difference is there are X amount of black ex-players who could offer something back to the game.
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When you think about it; most managers are ex-players from a generation of predominantly white players. Due to the influx of black players in the last 10/15 years or so, I believe that in the future their will be plenty of black managers.
Great point.
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Think it will be good for football and black community if this happens. But it need to be on merit.
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When you think about it; most managers are ex-players from a generation of predominantly white players. Due to the influx of black players in the last 10/15 years or so, I believe that in the future their will be plenty of black managers.
Exactly. It'd be interesting to know the percentage of white players to black players and do a comparison with black and white managers in the 10-15 year period afterwards. It'd also be good to get figures from the past on this as well.
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When you think about it; most managers are ex-players from a generation of predominantly white players. Due to the influx of black players in the last 10/15 years or so, I believe that in the future their will be plenty of black managers.
fair point. But it doesn't explain why footballers that get top jobs in the Prem without any experience tend to be white. There were plenty of black players in the 90s that should have been given the same opportunity as a gareth Southgate, david Platt, Stuart pearce, Roy keane etc
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When you think about it; most managers are ex-players from a generation of predominantly white players. Due to the influx of black players in the last 10/15 years or so, I believe that in the future their will be plenty of black managers.
fair point. But it doesn't explain why footballers that get top jobs in the Prem without any experience tend to be white. There were plenty of black players in the 90s that should have been given the same opportunity as a gareth Southgate, david Platt, Stuart pearce, Roy keane etc
Maybe they didn't want to be managers. The ones you've mentioned above, you could've guessed that they would become managers (well, maybe not David Platt). What black player do you think would've wanted to be a manager? Ian Wright?!?!?!?
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I'm sure there'll be more in the future. Julian Joachim will be Villa manager in 2020.
As of yet though, the few who have made it like John Barnes and Paul Ince, haven't exactly shown the ''honkys'' how it's done.
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Maybe in percentage terms more ex white players are interested in coaching than ex black players?
I think that's just as feasible as the idea that boardrooms up and down the country are either full of racists or otherwise unwittingly "institutionally racist".
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When you think about it; most managers are ex-players from a generation of predominantly white players. Due to the influx of black players in the last 10/15 years or so, I believe that in the future their will be plenty of black managers.
fair point. But it doesn't explain why footballers that get top jobs in the Prem without any experience tend to be white. There were plenty of black players in the 90s that should have been given the same opportunity as a gareth Southgate, david Platt, Stuart pearce, Roy keane etc
Maybe they didn't want to be managers. The ones you've mentioned above, you could've guessed that they would become managers (well, maybe not David Platt). What black player do you think would've wanted to be a manager? Ian Wright?!?!?!?
Of you look at the likes of Carlton Palmer, Mark Bright, Keith Alexander, Paul Ince etc the point is that they automatically had to start at the bottom - and rightly so - for those that wanted to go into management. Yes, there would undoubtedly be more white than black ex-players following that route due to obvious numbers. But the black players wouldn't be able to rely on a helping hand that some white ex-players get/got. It may be racist, it may be the ex-players qualities, but either way its a longer and harder route for a black manager.
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Maybe in percentage terms more ex white players are interested in coaching than ex black players?
I think that's just as feasible as the idea that boardrooms up and down the country are either full of racists or otherwise unwittingly "institutionally racist".
I feel this may be the case too.
I think that even though black people are good are football, they aren't interested in football in the same way as white people.
This is illustrated by the fact that 98% of Villa Park is white, when Brum is only like 65% white.
Also, I remember in the build up to Carling Cup final that James Milner said he was there in 1996, supporting Leeds as a boy against Villa in the League Cup final.
I could never imagine a black player saying this...
Anyone else think this could be the case?
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Maybe in percentage terms more ex white players are interested in coaching than ex black players?
I think that's just as feasible as the idea that boardrooms up and down the country are either full of racists or otherwise unwittingly "institutionally racist".
I feel this may be the case too.
I think that even though black people are good are football, they aren't interested in football in the same way as white people.
This is illustrated by the fact that 98% of Villa Park is white, when Brum is only like 65% white.
Also, I remember in the build up to Carling Cup final that James Milner said he was there in 1996, supporting Leeds as a boy against Villa in the League Cup final.
I could never imagine a black player saying this...
Anyone else think this could be the case?
What, you mean someone like Ian Taylor? or Garry Thompson?
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Positive discrimination is just as wrong as discrimination. However positive action is good. The difference is PD would mean choosing a person with obvious discriminatory factors such as race, colour, sex or disability in front of someone else who may be ahead on merit , whilst PA would mean ensuring that there is representation in the selection process and than someone is selected on merit. The Rooney rule does exactly that. Most large companies in UK have adapted similar approach.
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DJ Spooney did a program on this on R5 last night, they had Ince Barnes and others sugesting there was discrimination and why there are too few black managers, there was nothing to back it up. I need one stat, out of all the managers that are out of work right now how many of them are black?
There was a sicologist who said the only pertanant thing in that people will choose people as managers that appear similar to the ones that have been successfull and until a black manager breaks through then the staus quo will remain.
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Positive discrimination is just as wrong as discrimination. However positive action is good. The difference is PD would mean choosing a person with obvious discriminatory factors such as race, colour, sex or disability in front of someone else who may be ahead on merit , whilst PA would mean ensuring that there is representation in the selection process and than someone is selected on merit. The Rooney rule does exactly that. Most large companies in UK have adapted similar approach.
The Rooney rule is totally ridiculous. Football clubs should be able to choose who the hell they want to manage them and the shortlist from which the successful candidate is selected should be confidential unless the club wish to disclose it.
This talk about "positive action" irritates me as if this is an important issue. The fact is that we're talking about already rich ex players here who don't need to do another days work in their lives. Whether a few more black ex players become managers will do nothing to help the lives of the unemployed black youth of Nechells.
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DJ Spooney did a program on this on R5 last night, they had Ince Barnes and others sugesting there was discrimination and why there are too few black managers, there was nothing to back it up. I need one stat, out of all the managers that are out of work right now how many of them are black?
There was a sicologist who said the only pertanant thing in that people will choose people as managers that appear similar to the ones that have been successfull and until a black manager breaks through then the staus quo will remain.
Yes but Ince and Barnes are shit managers.Managers would be 20 years behind because of the natural timing of it all.In 10 years time there will be a lot more black managers.
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"There's a serious debate to be had about the colour of one's skin having no relevance in a meritocracy......quick, send for DJ Spoony!"
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How many black players can you think of and think he would make a really good manager in a few years time.... Thierry Henry springs to mind, intelligent and eloquent, maybe Vieira, can imagine Ugo being quite good for some reason. I think an issue is that the last 10 -15 years, with the massive inflation of wages from before, the amount of players who are hungry enough to raise their head above the sand and try management is decreasing, most good ones are from the lower leagues coming through, and the top clubs are turning to older heads increasingly due to the lack of obvious talent coming through in management. Maybe if we got more players, black white and grey through the uefa pro license, working in all levels of football, the technique of the english game might improve and more young managers would look like they had a clue, starting in coaching positions first to learn some of the functions. How many black coaches do we see? Les Ferdinand at Spurs is about the only one I can think off. Maybe that is where there needs to be a start, but not through some sort of weighted process..
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When you think about it; most managers are ex-players from a generation of predominantly white players. Due to the influx of black players in the last 10/15 years or so, I believe that in the future their will be plenty of black managers.
fair point. But it doesn't explain why footballers that get top jobs in the Prem without any experience tend to be white. There were plenty of black players in the 90s that should have been given the same opportunity as a gareth Southgate, david Platt, Stuart pearce, Roy keane etc
Maybe they didn't want to be managers. The ones you've mentioned above, you could've guessed that they would become managers (well, maybe not David Platt). What black player do you think would've wanted to be a manager? Ian Wright?!?!?!?
Of you look at the likes of Carlton Palmer, Mark Bright, Keith Alexander, Paul Ince etc the point is that they automatically had to start at the bottom - and rightly so - for those that wanted to go into management. Yes, there would undoubtedly be more white than black ex-players following that route due to obvious numbers. But the black players wouldn't be able to rely on a helping hand that some white ex-players get/got. It may be racist, it may be the ex-players qualities, but either way its a longer and harder route for a black manager.
Maybe it used to be. Not any more. The person who is best for the job will get it, regardless of skin colour.
Football is about money. Winning brings you that. If the best candidate to bring success and money to the club is black then he will be the one employed.
If we were having this conversation 20 years ago i'd agree with you.
I just can't see any interview panel saying, "we're not employing him; he's black."
Not in this day and age and not at such a high profile level.
Maybe the question they should be asking is, why aren't black people getting these jobs? Not, why aren't we giving these jobs to them ahead of white people?
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Maybe the question they should be asking is, why aren't black people getting these jobs? Not, why aren't we giving these jobs to them ahead of white people?
Tend to agree with what you're saying. Devil's in the detail and all that. In normal recruitment, which I accept is nothing like football recruitment, quite often subconsciously, interviewers appoint based on mirror images of their own background.
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Maybe the question they should be asking is, why aren't black people getting these jobs? Not, why aren't we giving these jobs to them ahead of white people?
Tend to agree with what you're saying. Devil's in the detail and all that. In normal recruitment, which I accept is nothing like football recruitment, quite often subconsciously, interviewers appoint based on mirror images of their own background.
I'm glad someone understood what I was trying to say. Don't think I put it across too well.
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Positive discrimination is just as wrong as discrimination. However positive action is good. The difference is PD would mean choosing a person with obvious discriminatory factors such as race, colour, sex or disability in front of someone else who may be ahead on merit , whilst PA would mean ensuring that there is representation in the selection process and than someone is selected on merit. The Rooney rule does exactly that. Most large companies in UK have adapted similar approach.
The Rooney rule is totally ridiculous. Football clubs should be able to choose who the hell they want to manage them and the shortlist from which the successful candidate is selected should be confidential unless the club wish to disclose it.
This talk about "positive action" irritates me as if this is an important issue. The fact is that we're talking about already rich ex players here who don't need to do another days work in their lives. Whether a few more black ex players become managers will do nothing to help the lives of the unemployed black youth of Nechells.
I think you need to read my post properly. I am talking about PA in general not just for ex footballer. PA IS an important issue. It means being given an opportunity. The "black youth of Nechells" need is an opportunity. You may be surprised but you will find a large number of employers have adapted PA whilst rejecting PD and this is the correct thing to do.
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How many black players can you think of and think he would make a really good manager in a few years time.... Thierry Henry springs to mind, intelligent and eloquent, maybe Vieira, can imagine Ugo being quite good for some reason. I think an issue is that the last 10 -15 years, with the massive inflation of wages from before, the amount of players who are hungry enough to raise their head above the sand and try management is decreasing, most good ones are from the lower leagues coming through, and the top clubs are turning to older heads increasingly due to the lack of obvious talent coming through in management. Maybe if we got more players, black white and grey through the uefa pro license, working in all levels of football, the technique of the english game might improve and more young managers would look like they had a clue, starting in coaching positions first to learn some of the functions. How many black coaches do we see? Les Ferdinand at Spurs is about the only one I can think off. Maybe that is where there needs to be a start, but not through some sort of weighted process..
I think you have covered it. There is under representation of Black managers v number of black footballers but this may be due to choice. Some stats are required to establish how many black applications were rejected prior to interview. However if there are no applicants than no one can do anything about it except the ex black players.
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Positive discrimination is just as wrong as discrimination. However positive action is good. The difference is PD would mean choosing a person with obvious discriminatory factors such as race, colour, sex or disability in front of someone else who may be ahead on merit , whilst PA would mean ensuring that there is representation in the selection process and than someone is selected on merit. The Rooney rule does exactly that. Most large companies in UK have adapted similar approach.
The Rooney rule is totally ridiculous. Football clubs should be able to choose who the hell they want to manage them and the shortlist from which the successful candidate is selected should be confidential unless the club wish to disclose it.
This talk about "positive action" irritates me as if this is an important issue. The fact is that we're talking about already rich ex players here who don't need to do another days work in their lives. Whether a few more black ex players become managers will do nothing to help the lives of the unemployed black youth of Nechells.
I think you need to read my post properly. I am talking about PA in general not just for ex footballer. PA IS an important issue. It means being given an opportunity. The "black youth of Nechells" need is an opportunity. You may be surprised but you will find a large number of employers have adapted PA whilst rejecting PD and this is the correct thing to do.
Nah! Everybody needs an opportunity.What colour you are really does not matter.
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completely glosses over the fact that a lot of the prominent black english players over the last 20 years have elected to go into the media instead. mark bright, ian wright, stan collymore, dion dublin all spring to mind.
who would genuinely want the day-to-day stress and hassle of being a football manager, when you could pick up a few thousand quid a week to spout crap?
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DJ Spooney did a program on this on R5 last night, they had Ince Barnes and others sugesting there was discrimination and why there are too few black managers, there was nothing to back it up. I need one stat, out of all the managers that are out of work right now how many of them are black?
That wouldn'r actually prove anything. If black ex-players aren't taking the coaching badges or even thinking about taking up managerial roles after their careers end because they percieve football to be predjudiced then there will always be more white mangers out of work than black managers, obviously.
This is where the Rooney rule comes in, if black players at least think there will be a level playing field then they might be encouraged to get the qualifications.
Tamworth have a black manager by the way, he's a bit shit but it is only his first season!
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Taylor said Ince should have been fully qualified when he took the Blackburn post, but added: "I spoke to Richard Scudamore [the chief executive of the FA Premier League] and said 'we've got to give him a chance, we have promised that we'll fast-track him and get him qualified'.
Why was he not qualified? Because he was black? I doubt it somehow. If they choose to fast track a manager it should not be because of his skin colour, which is what they're suggesting.
Am I right in thinking they fast tracked Southgate, or someone similar, a few years back?
I presume he wasn't fast tracked because he was white, but because they wanted to give him a chance. Ince should have been fast tracked for that reason only.
Never liked Gordon Taylor anyway.
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DJ Spooney did a program on this on R5 last night, they had Ince Barnes and others sugesting there was discrimination and why there are too few black managers, there was nothing to back it up. I need one stat, out of all the managers that are out of work right now how many of them are black?
There was a sicologist who said the only pertanant thing in that people will choose people as managers that appear similar to the ones that have been successfull and until a black manager breaks through then the staus quo will remain.
That's the key point with all these claims, it' appears to be assumption based on the fact there have been very few black managers at the top level. No-one is providing any stats to say how many were interviewed, how many were even interested, how many have even bothered starting the coaching badges, how many just saw football as a way to make a few quid before going off to enjoy the rest of their lives, how many were more interested in the far less pressurised media side of the game. Barnes was given opportunities at big clubs based on being a big name player, as was Ince. Neither exactly blazed a trail for others to follow. I'd be more inclined to give Gordon Taylor some credit if the PFA carried out a survey of all players of all ethnicities and asked them some of these questions. Then he might have something to go on.
Incidentally, nowadays most top level players will end their careers as multi-millionaires with no need to "work" again. I wonder how many of them will be bothered to go into management.
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It's not something that's restricted to football.
The only black faces in my office either work on the security desk, as cleaners or the real high-flyers who work in low-ranking IT jobs.
Not a single black manager here.
Mind you, not many women managers either.
Summat's wrong
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It's not something that's restricted to football.
The only black faces in my office either work on the security desk, as cleaners or the real high-flyers who work in low-ranking IT jobs.
Not a single black manager here.
Mind you, not many women managers either.
Summat's wrong
you need Halle Berry there ... mind, I would'nt get any work done...
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you need Halle Berry there ... mind, I would'nt get any work then...
I'd prefer Chuck Berry, to be honest
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That's the key point with all these claims, it' appears to be assumption based on the fact there have been very few black managers at the top level. No-one is providing any stats to say how many were interviewed, how many were even interested, how many have even bothered starting the coaching badges, how many just saw football as a way to make a few quid before going off to enjoy the rest of their lives, how many were more interested in the far less pressurised media side of the game. Barnes was given opportunities at big clubs based on being a big name player, as was Ince. Neither exactly blazed a trail for others to follow. I'd be more inclined to give Gordon Taylor some credit if the PFA carried out a survey of all players of all ethnicities and asked them some of these questions. Then he might have something to go on.
Fully agree.
I may be wrong, but I don't see all that great a difference between the number of black players now to 10-15 years ago, which is the era where managers like Southgate, Hughes and Keane come from. So I can't see there being more as we go forward unless we understand WHY they aren't coming through. I don't believe it's a matter of racism and Taylor would be better off looking at the various coaching courses and asking why there are so few black ex-players on them.
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Tricky question really. you could probably make a similar case about english managers at the top level at least. Its fashionable to have a foreign manager now, before the craze was for big name ex-players as your manager. Seem to remember Ince saying that he had to start at a much lower level in the leagues than similar high profile white colleagues. That may have some truth in it but then there was people like Nigel Clough who hardly went in at the top. I suppose the real question is if the likes of Andy cole, Dwight York, Ian Wright etc.. all wanted to get into manangement when they retired, got the qualifications and couldn't get a job, or if they just looked at the job and thought "sod that"....
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I think that black people make up less than 2% of the population of the UK, so if anything I'd say they are statistically over-represented in football.
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Good point Risso. I think good points made about clubs all going for success and hire accordingly, rather than background and skin colour of manager. In my book its the same as the discussion about not enough English players in the premier league, or enough managers that are English either. If they are good enough they will get there, i dont think anyone should be owed anything. We can put in quotas, but that just artificially alters the "population", and we get skewed results. The best guys will tend to end up in the top teams, getting paid the most money. I honestly dont think most people care about skin colour, sex or background these days, certainly not the hirer and firers, they just want the best people for the job regardless (its what I look for), and thats the way it should be. Positive discrimination is almost a reflex action to racisim or equivalents, and I think its made into too much of an issue, but maybe im naive.
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I think that black people make up less than 2% of the population of the UK, so if anything I'd say they are statistically over-represented in football.
Yes as players however than under represented in football administration, management and on the terraces.
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completely glosses over the fact that a lot of the prominent black english players over the last 20 years have elected to go into the media instead. mark bright, ian wright, stan collymore, dion dublin all spring to mind.
who would genuinely want the day-to-day stress and hassle of being a football manager, when you could pick up a few thousand quid a week to spout crap?
That's true, to a degree.
Some of the obvious candidates (Regis, Dublin and co) who were earmarked as the most likely candidates have shown no interest (yet) in pursuing the gig. What can you do, short of forcing them to take jobs.
I guess the argument would be that managers generally come from the pool of somewhat unfancied players, those who haven't had a particularly notable playing career are more hungry to make a name for themselves. And from that group, we haven't seen enough black players make the transition.
I also think -if anything- opportunities might be a bit harder lower down the football pyramid. The old style chairman of yesteryear still rules the roost at some of the lower league clubs and casual racism might be more prevalent amongst (some) of that generation.
At top flight clubs, those kind of bygone attitudes just couldn't be entertained with the sums of money involved. For a start, we're generally talking about billionaire owners of huge industries or multi-national corps now. It's possible they might have still been successful on that scale had they been bigoted and insular, but unlikely. Plus, even if they possessed less than PC views about certain cross sections of society, they'd be foolish to damage their substantial investment by not hiring the best bloke for the job whether he was black, white or Phil Orange.
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DJ Spooney did a program on this on R5 last night, they had Ince Barnes and others sugesting there was discrimination and why there are too few black managers, there was nothing to back it up. I need one stat, out of all the managers that are out of work right now how many of them are black?
That wouldn'r actually prove anything. If black ex-players aren't taking the coaching badges or even thinking about taking up managerial roles after their careers end because they percieve football to be predjudiced then there will always be more white mangers out of work than black managers, obviously.
This is where the Rooney rule comes in, if black players at least think there will be a level playing field then they might be encouraged to get the qualifications.
Tamworth have a black manager by the way, he's a bit shit but it is only his first season!
so we are not saying the issue is racism, its percieved racism, well i cant help you there, i could not give a monkeys toss about the colour of a Villa manager I just want the best manager we could possibly attract and I guess that is the view of fans, players and chairmen, the R5 live thing tried to make a sensational point, they failed because other than a few whingers there was no evidence to back it up. The more black players that take the coaching badges and apply for jobs the more black managers will get jobs.