Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: ROBBO on March 19, 2011, 11:27:11 PM
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Managed to avoid getting up in the middle of the night so didn't see the game. I did watch the first half of the Spurs- W.Ham
game and was very impressed by the amount of fight shown by Spam players, didn't see one player not giving his all and were led by a very good captain. They have had some good results of late, was it only eight weeks ago that Grant was a dead manager walking, now they could well survive. Compare that to the fragile state of the Villa squad, i firmly believe that most of the Villa players don't give a toss about the club, AYand NRC are seeing their time out, Senior pros getting pissed instead of getting fit and a total lack of leadership on the ground. Since Milner left i don't think we have had one player in the side that is prepared to give his all for the club,many are blaming the manager but i see a much bigger problem and it has been with us for years and that is one of respect for the club. We need a complete clear out and a strong disciplinarian at the controls whether that is Houllier or not we can no longer be seen as an easy touch for players looking for an easy life.
The bunch we have playing now don't have a pair of balls between them.
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One word that came to me today was "Steel".
Who were out "steel" players? Barry and Milner; particularly the latter. We have no steel and currently possess a crop of unmotivated/inexperienced/overrated bunch of mercenaries.
Need an 'Ian Taylor' in that side I reckon.
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Absolutely.
The fact that he is pretty certain to leave the club in the summer makes it totally unfathomable why Young is Captain.
The manager plays a part for sure but in all honesty I am fed up of pretty much all of our senior players who seem to mostly not give a fuck. The saddest indictment is that the two who come closest are the two who are likely to leave in the summer. Watching these highly paid professionals and the way they have behaved this season is enough to put you off football.
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Only flaw in all that is the players for the most part played for MON though ROBBO. And Kevin Mac seemed to get a decent response out of them too, barring Vienna at home and Newcastle away. His wins per game ratio is certainly far healthier than GH's.
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I think we should have played Petrov today, not Makoun & Reo Coker together as they are too similar in my opinion. At least Petrov may have shown some leadership, as it was very sadly lacking today.
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I think we should have played Petrov today, not Makoun & Reo Coker together as they are too similar in my opinion. At least Petrov may have shown some leadership, as it was very sadly lacking today.
Spot on, JD, we really missed Petrov's experience and there is no way NRC and Makoun should start, for the reason you state. In fact the more I see of Makoun, and I've seen every minute he's played for Villa so far, the less I am impressed with him. Significant that we finished the game with two French speaking muppets in central midfield, neither of whom seem capable of running!
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Personally i think the cliques and bad atmosphere in the squad is the main factor. You cannot function as a team with that sort of crap going on, however good you are as footballers. GH needs to do something this week whether its a major clearing of the air, or the termination of some player's Villa careers. He needs to do something and randy needs to back him with this or sack him and give someone else a chance. If he doesn't we'll be down
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GH is quoted as telling the players they now have 8 Champions League games, I am sure that has motivated them
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I would imagine that every football club's dressing room is full of massive egos, adults who act like spoilt children, petty-jealousies, bitchy in-fighting and cancerous cliques.
Add a manager who alienates the more "experienced" (for which read: cynical and jaded) players and can't harness and focus the competitive spirit that got the people to that dressing room in the first place, you end up with performances on the pitch such as you saw today.
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The lack of passion and fight today was very disturbing- without that we have no chance.
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We are fucked.
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We are fucked.
I think on that succinct and pretty accurate note, I'm going to call it a night.
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yep. virtual surrender today.
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Sure just go through them.
Walker on loan, was crap today but is only a young lad anyway and wont be here next season.
Herd did his best today but again too inexperienced. Cuellar isnt a leader. We needed him to shout and organise the back 4 today which he never did. Baker was struggling. Delph isnt a left back.
Reo Coker who is a leader always struggles in these types of games where the onus is on our midfielders to get on the ball and create. Again he is off in the summer so you would wonder how much he cares. Though to be fair he has played really well of late.
Makoun is showing all the signs of a player that was struggling for the last 18 months in France. I know he is new to the club but we really needed him to impose himself on the game but instead after a horror show opening he hid.
Downing lacks guts, scored I think it was one goal the season his hometown club went down which says it all. Not a leader. Ashley Young a wannabe leader. Better off on the fringes and definitely seems as if his move in the summer is already signed and sealed. Take the captaincy off him immediately and fuck him onto the wing until we have enough points for survival by which he can head to the reserves. Bent is new to the club, again a follower rather than a leader anyway. Was shit today. Albrighton only a young lad. Friedel should have retired last summer.
There you have it. Definitely thought Petrov should have came on for experience alone at half time. Dunne and Collins if motivated were badly missed today. Just remember when Bham went one up early in the season those two were superb in getting us back in the game.
I honestly think the only way we will stay up is if Houllier is replaced. Get someone in who can motivate the experienced players for 8 games. You can only hope they are professional enough not to want relegation on your CV. Bring Warnock, Cuellar back into the back four with Collins and Dunne. This isnt a time for kids really. Reo Coker and Delph in the middle like Bolton with Petrov as part of a three if required. Two from Downing, Albrighton and Young. Bent up top and if were going 442 with Gabby even though he looks as if he wouldnt score in a brothel at the moment. 44 fucking 2 as Mike Bassett would say with strong experienced players. This isnt a time for bedding in Makoun or Bradley. Herd and Baker to drop out. Clark probably on the bench too aswell as Albrighton. Its up to the experienced players to dig us out of a hole now.
With any kind of a decent manager I think they will get enough points to get us out of trouble anyway. Then we start flogging them in the summer.
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We now need someone with a big fucking mouth. A manager to tell it how it is and get the job done. What happens on the training ground now is largely moot. We simply need the right players in the right positions with the right attitude. And, for my money, someone who's already done it at this club and knows what it means.
Big Fat Ron.
Paul Merson.
Martin Laursen.
Ian Taylor.
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BFR is a ridiculous suggestion, in my opinion. We've had our fill of managers who have gone years without Top Flight experience.
I do however agree that the time for a manager is over. We don't need someone to be forward planning for a season where we don't know which league we'll be in, we don't need a master tactician. We DO need someone who knows the players, who knows how to get the best out of them and who will have their respect. Laursen's a great call.
He'll have the lads playing where they should be playing, he'll have the defence sorted and back to doing what they were doing last season in the next fortnight, he'll get the dressing room abck and he'll unite the fans.
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Laursen has no experience and is not in any way the man for the situation right now.
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This point could not have been more starkly brought into focus than by that 85th minute "time-out" created by the linesman replacement. McCarthy brought his players to the touchline and gave them words of encouragement and a drink. The Villa players stood about aimlessly. Friedel even sat down. If ever there was the time for somebody to step up and rouse the players into one last big effort to save something from the game it was then. What happened? Nothing.
The moment for important action came and went and we did nothing. Just like we did nothing when the writing was on the wall at Christmas that Houllier was not the man for the job.
The executives of the club who chose and appointed Houllier decided to gamble with our Premiership status by doing nothing. They gambled and they have lost.
They have no real concept of the size of the gulf between the Premiership and the Championship nor of the damage done to a club fighting 50 games a season of hoofball to get back into the top flight.
This calamity which has been bubbling under for months will only get through to the Villa executives when next season's season ticket sales fall through the floor. That is because they are running the club just like it was any other business. They have no real grasp of what the support base thinks or what it wants, we are just postcodes to be sent junk mail. Neither do they have any real grasp of the traditions, the pride or the history of the club. That is just old blokes going on about Pongo Waring and dusty old photographs of men with moustaches and lace up shirts.
Stand by for our views to be temporarily taken into account when the numbers start to filter through in the summer and get a great big bin bag ready for the junk mail charm offensive.
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What really suprised me was how much AY takes on himself, penalties, free kicks, goes where he wants when he wants. I am not knocking his desire but to be honest he has been very poor of late and needs to play on the wing and stay there. He is not a captain in fact he would improve with a very good captain in the team. I cannot get away from the idea that all the blame is being aimed at one man in the dugout when there are eleven on the pitch doing sod all. I've had a rethink though, we need Dunne and Collins back playing even though i think they are both pricks, they are our best chance defensively of keeping a clean sheet.
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The lack of fight/bottle/steel, whatever you wish to call it, clearly transfered itself to the crowd too. There was clearly an air of resignation that we expected defeat as the game wore on. A distinctly different atmosphere from that present at our previous VP low point at the end of the Sunderland game.
No way am I blaming the crowd, the responsibility lies squarely on the shoulders of the players and management.
The older ones amongst us all know the fan/player dynamic is very different these days because of high wages and perceived lack of loyalty. But yesterday showed a even greater gap. We watched just hoping that somehow some of the present employees get the ball in the net and keep us up before the majority of them move on with their careers elesewhere. This is because of the way Houllier has antagonised so many of us, meaning that at this moment there is no sense of unity and purpose, no connection whatsoever between player and fan.
With just 8 games left to try and avoid the drop, this is a recipe for disaster.
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The lack of fight/bottle/steel, whatever you wish to call it, clearly transfered itself to the crowd too. There was clearly an air of resignation that we expected defeat as the game wore on. A distinctly different atmosphere from that present at our previous VP low point at the end of the Sunderland game.
No way am I blaming the crowd, the responsibility lies squarely on the shoulders of the players and management.
The older ones amongst us all know the fan/player dynamic is very different these days because of high wages and perceived lack of loyalty. But yesterday showed a even greater gap. We watched just hoping that somehow some of the present employees get the ball in the net and keep us up before the majority of them move on with their careers elesewhere. This is because of the way Houllier has antagonised so many of us, meaning that at this moment there is no sense of unity and purpose, no connection whatsoever between player and fan.
With just 8 games left to try and avoid the drop, this is a recipe for disaster.
Spot on, listening on the telly to the game it had all the air of a club imploding. Fans not prepared to cheer on the team a poisonous atmosphere from the offset and body language from the players that stank of a lack of spirit and fight. It was pretty depressing to see and thus the result was a foregone conclusion. For Houllier to then wibble on about the Bolton game before turning on the fans just made a bad situation worse.
It strikes me that from the board, through the management team to the players and fans, the fight to stay up is not there and that really is a perfect storm.
We are sleeping walking into financial meltdown and we're doing it with a whimper.
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That's what we need to do start fighting together has a team instead of fighting each other we need the older players in the team to bring there experience to the team and put some fight into the other players.
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The lack of fight stems from the Manager. I think it's apparant they don't believe in his tactics/methods of playing.
We have the players, the coaching is to blame
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the lack of fight comes from the manager admitting that its ok to not bother if you dont think you are good enough in the fa cup game...
he has set the tone, and the players are responding...
the manager, and the players are all a disgrace for it...
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BFR is a ridiculous suggestion, in my opinion. We've had our fill of managers who have gone years without Top Flight experience.
Not only that, when he was coaxed out of retirement to try and salvage Notts Forest's top flight status, he failed miserably.
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Trevor Francis made a good point in commentary after the Bent penalty shout, not one Villa player appealed to the referee for the decision. It was like they didn't give a fuck.
There was also another bizarre episode. Wolves were breaking half heartedly in the second half but we were outnumbered. Pires the nearest midfielder though started arguing with the ref during play. Francis couldn't believe it.
The lack of professionalism throughout the side all season has been vomit inducing. Of course it spreads like wildfire and with a hapless egotistical clown in charge your left fighting relegation. A good manager nips that in the bud. We on the other hand routinely give away stupid freekicks in dangerous areas, players on the piss, don't return from holidays etc etc That clown is extremely well paid too to deliver results so
I sure as fuck don't feel sorry for him.
I actually wouldn't mind so much if we had a shit group of players. But with the players at his disposal we should be at a minimum top 8. That's what makes it so sick though. The side and management team are frankly rotten to the core. It's like we are freewheeling towards financial meltdown through indifference both from the chairman who doesn't want to admit he was badly wrong, from a manager who thinks he is too good for the players he manages and the club he employs while the players frankly shame the shirt on a weekly basis almost as if to get the manager out of the job.
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Has anyone else posted this from today's Mail?
Newcastle boss Alan Pardew has promised an investigation after nightclub photos of three players - striker Leon Best on-loan midfielder Stephen Ireland and reserve team player Stephen Folan - were posted on the internet.
Villa still own Ireland, so how did we end up with so many overpaid wasters?
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We now need someone with a big fucking mouth. A manager to tell it how it is and get the job done. What happens on the training ground now is largely moot. We simply need the right players in the right positions with the right attitude. And, for my money, someone who's already done it at this club and knows what it means.
Big Fat Ron.
Paul Merson.
Martin Laursen.
Ian Taylor.
Most of these ideas seem somewhat Newcastle-esque to me. I think by their own admission Big Ron and Sir Graham are yesterday's men and they much prefer the quiet life doing media work. Don't get me wrong I love both of them but as we have seen in the past getting in a guy who has been out of the hotseat for so long doesn't work. Look at SGT's second spell, Kinnear at Newcastle and Houllier here. The only real exception I can think of being Kenny Dalglish (anyone who disagrees with that should consider we were above Liverpool when he took charge and now they are outside bets for Europe). As for Taylor and Laursen they might work out, they might not. They could be tomorrow's men. The same goes a couple of years down the line for Mellberg.
I do agree with the essence of what you are saying. We need a big personality who can get them to believe and to re-organise the team. We need a man who can do that if we are to replace Houllier at this stage. I know others do not like him but I reckon Big Sam could do that. Wishful thinking points to Jol assisted by Chris Hughton (which got Spurs to the cusp of the top four) and even that might be too ambitious.
Of course they do have to motivate and re-energise some total shits amongst the team.
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Laursen as manager? You can't be serious?
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GH is quoted as telling the players they now have 8 Champions League games, I am sure that has motivated them
I doubt an away trip to Žilina in February playing in -5°C without a snood would have me at my best.
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Laursen has no experience and is not in any way the man for the situation right now.
Correct.
Is he coaching at the moment?
Has he done any?
Is he even jnterested in coaching or managing?
Good players don't always make good coaches and good coaches weren't always good players.
Just because he was a good player for us doesn't automatically mean he'd do a good job as a manager.
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Not sure if this has been mentioned but watching that yesterday bore similarities with the Newcastle game of a couple of seasons ago, when they needed a win to stay up. That day Newcastle had no fight in them, no one busting a gut and no desire. Yesterday Villa were Newcastle, the difference is we have time to put it right but the application needs to be there as yesterday was embarrassing.
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Chris Hughton isnt a bad shout, as a temporary fix, if we are going to do it, it needs to happen very quickly, if nothing has been done by tuesday, we are stuck with him.
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I suppose it is impossible to divert any thread from the manager. We all seem to resort to that argument.
But where is our Captain? Where is the man that can turn to the crowd and demand a voice of support. The raised arms, chest out " come on!!!" character to unite team and fans. The man we respect and support for his effort and guts. The man who when he asks for help achieves the support the team needs. When we are in shit.
The Leader.
We are in a scrap for survival and we know that Villa Park can unite against adversity- but not now.
Where in this team is the one man who would and could call upon the fans to sing, yell, chant for his team?
Yes I came to the same conclusion.
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He is playing for Stoke because he was a very naughty boy.
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He is playing for Stoke because he was a very naughty boy.
Get real, he's played crap all season because HE didnt want to play for Houllier, just like the other bad apples.
Managers can make a team but players can break the manager.....do we want to poll the players who they want to manage them...what is Aston Villa ? A co-operative
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"Lions led by donkeys"
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You know I can put up with the defensive mistakes; I can deal with the bad luck and even live with the missed chances. However, what I truly cannot truly abide is watching a team who by rights should be nowhere near this position play with a total lack of conviction and pride because they seemingly have a beef with the manager.
If we go down (and the if is turning increasingly into a when) these bunch of petulant clowns who don’t like the management style will be the first ones clambering for the likes of Stoke, Bolton and Everton to snap them up and avoid the nightmare of the Championship. They’ll hide behind the excuse that they could not work within the management style and blame that for the total lack of basic pride in what they are paid to do.
I’m tired of hearing the excuses getting rolled out like some great big get out clause for the inevitable. Whatever the wrongs of Houllier are, the facts are that these players could get us out of this if they actually had a sense of pride and passion in what they do, instead when the chips are down they mope about like spoiled kids or sit on the ground like so many Cup Final losers have done. It’s us the fans that will pick up the pieces from this, it’s us that will be dropped into the abyss not the players.
I live in hope that somewhere within the yellow bellies of these excuses for footballers there lies a modicum of pride that will manifest itself at least once between now and the end of this season and avoid thus avoid the nightmare that could await us. If they can do this, I suspect then that the board will deal with the festering sore that is the rift between the manager and team and make the right decision.
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saw on a local Spanish Carnival float this weekend, in translation,
'In order to be Champions of the World you need good balls'
Spot on and worth taking note of from the Spanish.
Although they did use the word pelotas instead of cajones
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"Lions led by donkeys"
More like Lions without a pride
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over paid over rated pre maddonas, we all have to work with gaffers we may not always like but thats life.... wheres the pride? wheres the passion??
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It's about time they got the stick they deserve. Regardless of the manager, they're putting in performances way below anything you'd expect from a professional in any job.
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Good post Neil. if this were a club like Lyon, Real Madrid or PSG (spit!) the fans would be down at the training ground giving the players some serious stick (and in some cases, smashing their cars up and stuff, WHICH WE DON'T CONDONE, before anyone gets any ideas).
In France there have been banners, yes banners, with slogans such as:-
"SHAME ON YOU!"
"ARE YOU READY TO DRENCH THE JERSEY WITH SWEAT?"
"BEAT [team X] AND PREVENT THOSE COCKSUCKERS FROM GOING ABOVE YOU!"
"GIVEN UP, HAVE WE?"
"VALUES WE BELIEVE IN HUMILIATING" (sic)
and the reprehensible (Marseille got a €5000 fine for this)
YOU MINCING POOVES. BE MEN! (OK, not happy with the homophobia here, but they certainly like their team to give a fuck).
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the side that got relegated to div 3 1970 atleast went down fighting and i mean on the pitch not at the bar
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It's about time they got the stick they deserve. Regardless of the manager, they're putting in performances way below anything you'd expect from a professional in any job.
You know that, I know that, do you think the manager and the Board do not ?
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What summed it up for me was in the second half when if Downing had sprinted into the challenge he would have made it a 50/50 instead he though sod this and slowed down.
We have relegation written all over us, far to many players not prepared to stand up and be counted,
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If I had put in such a day's work I would expect to get a right rollocking, and I worked for myself
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Not sure if this has been mentioned but watching that yesterday bore similarities with the Newcastle game of a couple of seasons ago, when they needed a win to stay up. That day Newcastle had no fight in them, no one busting a gut and no desire. Yesterday Villa were Newcastle, the difference is we have time to put it right but the application needs to be there as yesterday was embarrassing.
I have been noticing the similarities with Newcastle all season. For one, we have appointed an over-the-hill manager who is unable to motivate his players and basically hasnt a clue.
Newcastle got rid of Kinnear when they looked doomed, but the problem was bringing in a rookie like Shearer.
My mates a Newcastle fan and he said that for the first 3 quarters of the season he just kept thinking that the players they had were too good to go down until it finally dawned that they lacked enough spirit to stay up.
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I have no doubt with senior players back we have a squad that should be to good for those around us, the problem is no-one is showing leadership on the pitch, AY is the captain why i don't know because he was lucky not to get sent of on Saturday with his show of petulance.
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It's a reasonable parallel to draw - the season Newcastle went down also started in crisis with Keegan leaving suddenly; they never really recovered, made an appointment that didn't work out, and couldn't get out of trouble. Similar sized club, several senior players who just didn't perform, etc.
The players are really concerning me. Many of the senior players seem to have issues with the manager for various reasons - so much so that in the middle of a defensive crisis we have two players who could help us sitting it out, and we also have injury problems rearing up again. Is it a coincidence that Dunne and Collins, obviously critical of the management, are now both injured? Can't help wondering if they'd have been fit for O'Neill. I don't get that feeling that we have players wanting to bust a gut for Houllier.
What worried me more were Gabby's quotes last week that the players weren't thinking or talking about relegation. They f***** well need to be.
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My mates a Newcastle fan and he said that for the first 3 quarters of the season he just kept thinking that the players they had were too good to go down until it finally dawned that they lacked enough spirit to stay up.
If we go down that will be why.
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I was pretty much apoplectic after the game, I cant remember ever being that angry after a Villa game for many a year.
The lack of any desire made my blood boil, we can slate Houiller but you'd have hoped that the players would have a bit of professional pride, they don't give a shit, if we go down some other mugs will be paying their 40k a week wages, we'll be travelling to Barsnley but it wont matter to these players.
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We lack a leader. Like him or loathe him but MON was the leader at the club and GH just isn't. On the pitch we have never replaced Martin Laursen and if we had him now we would not be anywhere enar relegation.
Whatever happens we need to find a leader for next season.
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It's a bad mix right now - too many senior players with an axe to grind, or fully aware that they won't be at the club next season; and a group of promising young players who have been pressed into action in a tough situation.
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What summed it up for me was in the second half when if Downing had sprinted into the challenge he would have made it a 50/50 instead he though sod this and slowed down.
We have relegation written all over us, far to many players not prepared to stand up and be counted,
I saw that, but Downing has always been like that. IMO he was one of the better players on Sat along with Carlos and Albrighton.
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Its not fight, its a distinct lack of confidence and an inability to defend.
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and score goals