Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Gaztonniller on March 09, 2011, 05:56:35 PM
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Came across this article. Maybe its just jumping on the Barcelona wagon but would you agree or disagree with the writer; http://sportwitness.ning.com/forum/topics/aston-villa-will-soon-be And where do you find a Messi type?
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Its very exciting I hope they all make it
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Interesting what the Man U fan said about Barry Bannan.
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More interesting what the Liverpool fan had to say about Houllier.
The comments on James McArthy are interesting as I never heard anything about him joining us. Why would MoN reject him on the basis that he had no premier league experience? He played in the same league as Cuellar, Petrov and Agathe and it didn't stop us signing them. Mind if Wigan go down I'd love to sign him though he is like Bannan in a lot of ways. The boy will go to the top and I for one am dreadfully disappointed that he decided to play for Ireland because those in the youth set up for Scotland were too myopic to give him a go.
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Interesting what the Man U fan said about Barry Bannan.
Yep my mates a Man U season ticket holder watches the reserves games etc and said a lot of united fans have been saying how well Bannans been playing
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Before people say dont get too excited by the 'youth' I would say this season its the only thing to get excited about. Agree with most of that article another couple of names Daniel Devine a giant centre half can see him and Clark playing for Ireland for years also Jack Grealish along with Jordan Graham the most promising youngsters at Bodymoor Heath. Its all good.
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Compelling argument indeed! If it comes off half as well as that it'd be one of our better sides ever, to be honest, so here's hoping!
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I hope they come through and perform brilliantly nothing would make me more proud than if these lads make a big impact at the Villa which i really hope they do.
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Not really a compelling argument at all.
Comes across as two parts factual, 98 parts wishful thinking, interspersed with mind-bending narcotics.
I do think Bannan - in the right set-up- could be a very special player and Albrighton might be in and around the England set up in the not-too-distant. I haven't seen enough of Gardner but I trust the opinion of those who have, and it's encouraging that at such a young age he already has height and a strong physical frame -to go with his undoubted talent. We might not always like it, but physical attributes still play a crucial part of the English game.
Overall, I'd say our set up is closer to Espanyol or Real Sociedad, in so far as we are capable of producing two/three players fit for the first team every few years and others decent enough to ensure that the Acadamy at least justifies the costs. Rather than comparing us to one of the best teams in the world - indeed a side who will probably go down in history as the greatest ever.
That's just crack talk.
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So, we've got the new McGrath, Messi and Henry in the team. Awesome!
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I think the actual Barcelona comparison is meant as eye-catching tongue-in-cheekery. I meant the argument that we can achieve success built around the youth system is compelling.
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We got lot of potential, and if we could poach the cream of French Youth from French Footballing Academy in GH's previous job and develop the team for long term and we could be the choice for top english and french young players to join. I would like us to hire a coach from Barcelona to enable us learn from the best and in 10 years time Barcelona will be looking at Aston Villa with envy.
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in 10 years time Barcelona will be looking at Aston Villa with envy.
To borrow a phrase, that's just crack talk.
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That Liverpool fan was misinformed, Houllier transformed there club into a top 4 club, Benitez wrecked tge club from top to bottom,
Houllier has been quoted as saying Villa have the best young players he has ever worked with.
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I think it's a case of priorities.
Unless you have a special crop, as per Man U mid 90's or Leeds (or even West Ham) early noughties, a whole rake of young players coming through the ranks and establishing themselves in the first XI is unrealistic.
Or would we accept not competing, content to finish 6-16th (or GH's very own 7-12) year on year, providing most of the side is homegrown?
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That Liverpool fan was misinformed, Houllier transformed there club into a top 4 club, Benitez wrecked tge club from top to bottom,
Houllier has been quoted as saying Villa have the best young players he has ever worked with.
They finished top 4 (and higher) under Roy Evans.
Houllier outspent every side in the division (including Man U) and couldn't improve on that.
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I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect it's wishful thinking. If any of them did turn out to be the next Messi, Henry, McGrath or even Wilshere...we wouldn't have them for long.
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You're probably right Sexwhale, the cream of the crop will be sold off, but for big money and in the meantime we'll benefit from ability.
The fact they may be sold is hardly reason to not try and develop the best youth possible.
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I watch plenty of clubs at that age and level. Gary Gardner is light years above the lot without a doubt.
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But would you like to see us sell a 30 millions pounds player every season. That mean we got the talent and talent production line.
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It's a very tricky task to bring through so many young players and keep them all involved and all happy. At some point they all want regular football and the manager has to make sure that they don't start thinking that they might have a better chance of getting that elsewhere. Gerard has shown that he's not afraid to rotate so we have a better chance of doing that than under his predecessor but it take long term planning.
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Right or wrong, virtually every decision Houllier has made so far has appeared to be for the long term good of Villa rather than his reputation and arguably the league position for this season.
With that philosophy - which may have been imposed from randy - I think the kids will be well looked after at villa.
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I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect it's wishful thinking. If any of them did turn out to be the next Messi, Henry, McGrath or even Wilshere...we wouldn't have them for long.
The thing is in terms of the best players we are a selling club. Most clubs are. There are only a few clubs in the world that don't have to worry about losing their best player(s). Its what we can do whilst we have those players in the team. If they start winning together then the side can only strengthen with better quality additions. If it doesn't work we just keep trying.
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I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect it's wishful thinking. If any of them did turn out to be the next Messi, Henry, McGrath or even Wilshere...we wouldn't have them for long.
If this happened I would then begin to ask, "What is the point?"
At some point we have actually got to show the ambition that we want to be the very best club around and to win the biggest prizes once more.
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I think if things had been a bit different this season, Maybe a couple or three less injuries, maybe 3 or 4 points more, pretty much where we were 90% sure we were not going down. And I dont mean just now I mean back in December when it really went wrong, it could have been a lot different. These kids would have been playing in a confident team not scratching for points. I think that would have made a big big difference. But fair play to GH for playing them
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Or are we just bringing the younger players through to the first team quicker, because it is cheaper than buying players and paying them big money contracts, enabling us to sell off the high earners, therefore maximising profits and AVFC the franchise is successful.
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Or are we just bringing the younger players through to the first team quicker, because it is cheaper than buying players and paying them big money contracts, enabling us to sell off the high earners, therefore maximising profits and AVFC the franchise is successful.
nah I dont think thats the case at all
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It would be marvellous if the youngsters were to reach the heights we all hope but we've had good youth teams and players more often than not and few if any of them have lived up to the hype generated in their teen years. I really want to be wrong but history indicates otherwise.
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I still reckon Graham Fenton will be the new Gary Shaw.
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Gareth Farrelly the new Dennis Mortimer.
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Didn't Owen and Gerrard come through Liverpool's system whilst Houllier was there?
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This season really has a nightmare feel about it....the only bright thing that can be said about it is the fact that we have seen the kids get some useful experiences at a higher level.If they can remain hungry and develop into proper premier league players that will give me a great deal of satisfaction and the club a bright future.
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Dreadful 'what if' fantasy article.
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Piss take all you like but our youth set up is top class, improving and will eventually help to produce the best team in the land.
I honestly believe that.
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I found this about the 2002 Youth Cup winning side from a couple of years ago -
Villa's FA Youth Cup winning team not only achieved great glory back in May 2002 but went on to enjoy rewarding careers in the game.
Most of the Villa players involved in that two-leg final against Everton went on to make the grade professionally - a fitting testament to the club's youth academy and its coaching staff.
Everton's youngsters were less successful although a young striker called Wayne Rooney broke the mould joining Manchester United in a £20 million move in 2004.
WAYNE HENDERSON: Villa's goalkeeper whose stunning 33rd-minute reflex save denied Wayne Rooney and ensured Villa held on to their 4-2 aggregate lead. After leaving Villa he went to Brighton before being snapped up by Championship side Preston North End. He is their first choice keeper but, now 24, has missed most of this season with a back injury.
ANDREW WELLS: Released by Villa in 2003.
LIAM RIDGEWELL: Young central defender outplayed Wayne Rooney in the first leg and went to play regularly in Villa's first team. In the summer the former England Under 21 International became one of a rare breed to make move across the Second City joining Premier League rivals Blues in a £2.5 million deal.
RYAN AMOO: Joined Northampton Town in 2004 after leaving Villa and went on to date Celebrity Big Brother star Jade Goody. Currently with Lincoln City.
PETER WHITTINGHAM: "Whitts" flourished in the Villa first team making his debut in midfield against Newcastle in 2003. Now with Championship side Cardiff City and pursuing the FA Cup for real.
PETER HYNES: Now a lorry driver back in his native Ireland but enjoyed a career with Doncaster, Cheltenham and Tamworth upon leaving Villa.
COLIN MARSHALL: The 24-year-old has played for half-a-dozen Scottish clubs since leaving Villa and is now with Forfar.
STEVEN DAVIS: Became a fully-fledged Villa first-team player and attracted interest from a host of clubs including Manchester United before leaving for Fulham in a £4.5 million deal last season. The Northern Ireland International is on loan with Scottish Premier League side Rangers.
STEPHEN FOLEY: The Dublin born youngster went on to play in the 2005 FA Youth Cup with Villa only to suffer defeat at the hands of Middlesbrough before moving on to AFC Bournemouth.
LUKE MOORE: Together with brother Stefan was considered player of the tournament. Scored in the 4-1 first leg win at Goodison and made his Villa debut against Birmingham City in 2003. Still only 22 he was last night heading for West Bromwich Albion on loan with the view to a £3.5 million permanent deal at the end of this season.
STEFAN MOORE: The elder of the Moore brothers also scored in the vital first leg. Played 29 times for Villa's first team and was considered a major prospect but took his eye off his game and went on to play for Millwall and then QPR but was recently released.
JAMES O'CONNOR: Villa youngster went on to join Championship side Port Vale after impressing them during a loan spell.
MICHAEL HUSBANDS: Now 24, he enjoyed spells at several clubs upon leaving Villa including Hereford United, Bristol Rovers, Walsall and Macclesfield and now plays for Midlands side Telford United.
Now out of them players only really Ridgewell and Davis have gone on to make a career in top flight football, with Whittingham just outside.
So even out the current crop, if 2/3 manage to make it in top flight football, let alone at the Villa, then we'll have done very well indeed.
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In and around that side were also Cahill, Gardner. Plus the only thing letting down the likes of Luke Moore is mental attitude, not talent. Which is also something we're getting better at.
But yes, only the cream rise to the top and it's often mental issues which hold some of the more talented players back from breaking through.
If we get two or three players from each crop that are good enough for Villa, that's an amazing percentage. And the ones that dont make it and are sold can still make good money to reinvest in the programme.
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Piss take all you like but our youth set up is top class, improving and will eventually help to produce the best team in the land.
I honestly believe that.
No piss take, but I don't want us to become a bigger version of Crewe. The way things are with money in the Premier League, even if we do produce a gem (say for example, Gary Gardner) then what's to stop City or Chelsea just waltzing in and snapping him up? OK selling youngsters for big fees would fund the next crop, but is that really what we want?
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No of course not. Selling our best young players is in complete contrast to a policy of developing a strong side by our own means. In that situation we would just refuse any offers. We have enough clout to. Of course, it would depend on who it was, how vital they are and what the deal was.
Crewe aren't trying to produce a team to compete at the hghest levels. We are.
It's the only way to compete for us. Otherwise we would have to compete with the likes of Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea and whoever for the best players and thats not likely to come off well for us is it?
So it leaves us one path and fortunately, its a path we're already paving handsomely.
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The 2002 Youth side were supposed to be our future, but there was so much dross.
Used to watch Ryan Amoo in the reserves, awful.
I've no doubt most of our youngsters will make it in the professional game, but for most it will be in the lower leagues.
It's very, very hard to produce your own players, so many factors are involved.
Can your talent evolve? Will you develop physically? Have you got the right attitude? Will you get a sustained opportunity?
One name - Stephen Cooke.
Many on here said he was the new Cowans, I honestly couldn't see the attraction.
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its already started with man utd and chelsea after jordan graham, who looks superb for a 15 year (although he turned 16 beginning of march i think)... grealish is another than is attracting attention, along with robinson... both of whom have been fast tracked ahead a couple of years...
although man utd were after delfouneso too, liverpool / inter after gardner, etc... we lost daniel sturridge to coventry years back...
some go, some dont, but one thing i am positive of, is that the current crop are very good, but in years to come, with the work that is being done with the academy, better quality players, with technical ability as standard will be coming through more often than not...
i think over the next 5-10 years these sorts of players will start coming through as standard... we have bannon, delfouneso, clark, albrighton, baker, and a couple below that, who at the moment, stand out because all of them have good technical ability... but the work being done by the academy, (ben petty for example, has 7 year olds doing nothing but pass and move, and all these young kids are comfortable on the ball with both feet), will bring through players like jack grealish and jordan graham, where they stand out even more with their technique and intelligent movement as standard, because they will also have the physical side to go along with it... graham for example is a beast for 15 years old... (thats not to say he will make it, he is an example of someone who looks like he has potential due to his comfort on the ball at the age of 15) only thing that will stop them is a poor attitude... but the quality of players will improve, and players like bannon, will not be seen as anything that special because they will have become the norm...
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The thing with this is two best domestic examples of recent years are Man Utd and West Ham. The difference between the two was that Man Utd brought their lot into a sucessful side (likes of Schmichael, Keane, Cantona) and then bought on top of it (Yorke, Cole, Stam). West Ham didn't and the kids eventually got bought off by the big boys.
How successful we are with them and how long we keep them for is dependent on what we do alongside the emerging youth.
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No of course not. Selling our best young players is in complete contrast to a policy of developing a strong side by our own means. In that situation we would just refuse any offers. We have enough clout to. Of course, it would depend on who it was, how vital they are and what the deal was.
Crewe aren't trying to produce a team to compete at the hghest levels. We are.
It's the only way to compete for us. Otherwise we would have to compete with the likes of Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea and whoever for the best players and thats not likely to come off well for us is it?
So it leaves us one path and fortunately, its a path we're already paving handsomely.
Unfortunately, when we've sold our best two players, two years running, it doesn't bode that well for holding onto people. As things stand, we absolutely don't have the financial clout to refuse big offers.
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Can't see Ashley, I say Ashley staying.
But i'd like all the proceeds to be spent on a replacement.
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Our youth set up is barely recognisable to what it was in 2002 and it was good by standards then.
It's one area where we can genuinely say we are the best or at least one of. In England anyway. And what's more encouraging is that we've got our gaze fixed even more on 5 years down the line than we have now.
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although tbf risso, neither did liverpool or man utd when it came to torres and ronaldo respectively...
its unfortunate when players want to leave, but all we can do when that happens is to get the best deal for them...
although ideally, we would want to really make sure that they dont want to leave, but that is very difficult for a lot of teams, including the above...
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No of course not. Selling our best young players is in complete contrast to a policy of developing a strong side by our own means. In that situation we would just refuse any offers. We have enough clout to. Of course, it would depend on who it was, how vital they are and what the deal was.
Crewe aren't trying to produce a team to compete at the hghest levels. We are.
It's the only way to compete for us. Otherwise we would have to compete with the likes of Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea and whoever for the best players and thats not likely to come off well for us is it?
So it leaves us one path and fortunately, its a path we're already paving handsomely.
Unfortunately, when we've sold our best two players, two years running, it doesn't bode that well for holding onto people. As things stand, we absolutely don't have the financial clout to refuse big offers.
They werent our best youth players. And yes, we do have enough financial clout to refuse offers that dont suit us.
If the player then kicks up a fuss it's our policy to move them on when it suits us. Obviously we need to make sure players, especially ones we've spent years bringing through, dont feel like they want to leave us.
Other teams manage it.
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No of course not. Selling our best young players is in complete contrast to a policy of developing a strong side by our own means. In that situation we would just refuse any offers. We have enough clout to. Of course, it would depend on who it was, how vital they are and what the deal was.
Crewe aren't trying to produce a team to compete at the hghest levels. We are.
It's the only way to compete for us. Otherwise we would have to compete with the likes of Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea and whoever for the best players and thats not likely to come off well for us is it?
So it leaves us one path and fortunately, its a path we're already paving handsomely.
Unfortunately, when we've sold our best two players, two years running, it doesn't bode that well for holding onto people. As things stand, we absolutely don't have the financial clout to refuse big offers.
They werent our best youth players. And yes, we do have enough financial clout to refuse offers that dont suit us.
If the player then kicks up a fuss it's our policy to move them on when it suits us. Obviously we need to make sure players, especially ones we've spent years bringing through, dont feel like they want to leave us.
Other teams manage it.
Isn't that all a bit hopeful, though?
We have a policy of not selling players unless the offer suits us ... OK
but, if the player then kicks up a fuss, we move them on when it suits us ... which is pretty soon after the player kicks up a fuss, which tends to be when an offer comes in.
The end result is the same, the player goes. It's fine having a policy of not selling - in the sense of not being an active selling club, one that developers or buys to sell, like Wigan, for example - but it is a totally different thing thinking we can withstand the same pressures which lead to almost every other club having to sell when another club offers more money.
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Its not easy to keep your better youth players when you're not offering chances of winning medals, and then the very top honours. Also if anyone thinks we're not a selling club to the top clubs then they are also deluded. it doesn't mean we are a selling club in terms of finances, but more in terms of pecking order.
It wasn't the likes of Stoke or Sunderland taking our best players but Man City. And like it or not they are above us in teh pecking order in terms of success, or perceived success. I don't believe Bent moved for money but he thought he had a better long-term chance of winning something with us than Sunderland. proving that despite position we are above them, perhaps, in the pecking order - although this season will narrow that hugely.
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I dont see any point in worrying who's going to come in for our best youth players. They wouldnt be worth big money until they been successful for us first anyway.
The aim is to produce the best players and after that you have to trust the powers that be to do the right thing.
Now, are we producing the best players to make money from or to be successful? I'm willing to bet heavily that it's the latter.
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Or are we just bringing the younger players through to the first team quicker, because it is cheaper than buying players and paying them big money contracts, enabling us to sell off the high earners, therefore maximising profits and AVFC the franchise is successful.
That would be a high risk strategy to say the least, not that there is a strategy without risk. My take on it would be to enjoy the success of the youth team, hope they are given a chance but don't put too much expectation on them.
As for Graham Fenton, chanting his name certainly shut up the Newcastle fans at one memorable away match!
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Bringing youth through will be even more important when the new European rules on club finances come in. If we are ahead of the game when that happens then it will give is a chance to bridge the gap.
Which ever way you look at it, I'd rather have a top performing Academy than a failing one. Even if the 'only' benefit is financial profit throough selling them on.
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We have a policy of not selling players unless the offer suits us ... OK
but, if the player then kicks up a fuss, we move them on when it suits us ... which is pretty soon after the player kicks up a fuss, which tends to be when an offer comes in.
Paulie - I share your frustration at selling our best/better players (especially Milner), but the situation with Man City was highly unusual. They have been able to offer silly money to any player they choose and follow that up with crazy money on transfer fees. No club has been able to say no once their player has been turned by the notion of wheelbarrows of cash.
On a more general note, having a highly successful academy can only be a good thing for us. As others have said, sometimes we will reap financial benefits and sometimes we will reap player benefits.
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although tbf risso, neither did liverpool or man utd when it came to torres and ronaldo respectively...
its unfortunate when players want to leave, but all we can do when that happens is to get the best deal for them...
Whilst that's true in the case of Man U (and Arsenal to a certain extent, with Adebayor and Toure), it doesn't seem quite so bad if you're still challenging for trophies and qualifying for CL. Those sides could make a decent argument to say they haven't been too adversely affected by taking advantage of a business opportunity.
Where we are slightly different is that selling Barry and Milner has impacted on our status as one of the sides challenging in and around 4th. Both deals made a degree of financial sense at the time, but the simple fact of the matter is we didn't have the depth of squad to work around losing two players of that calibre.
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Are we seeing the emergence of the youth team players in the first team because they are good enough or because they represent better value for money,
Of course, I am playing devils advocate by saying this, but it seems convenient that suddenly the academy and youth team players is where it's at, and older experienced more expensive players are now considered surplus to requirements.
The younger players need to be blended into a team. Players like Hogg, Herd, Baker, Lichaj, Lowry, are not ready yet, and their inexperience may cost us.
I can't help but think that this strategy, as well as selling off the big earners, will provide a quick fix solution to the balancing the wages to turnover ratio problem.
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Are we seeing the emergence of the youth team players in the first team because they are good enough or because they represent better value for money,
Of course, I am playing devils advocate by saying this, but it seems convenient that suddenly the academy and youth team players is where it's at, and older experienced more expensive players are now considered surplus to requirements.
The younger players need to be blended into a team. Players like Hogg, Herd, Baker, Lichaj, Lowry, are not ready yet, and their inexperience may cost us.
I can't help but think that this strategy, as well as selling off the big earners, will provide a quick fix solution to the balancing the wages to turnover ratio problem.
We have been moaning for ages that our youngsters don't seem to get a chance and I am delighted that they are at the moment. The key is getting the balance right. I would much prefer Lichaj to be an emergency full back than Beye who is on £40,000 a week. Even the top clubs do this and I think we were in a league only with Man City before where we played players stupid amounts of money to come in and not get anywhere near the matchday squad.
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Having a top class youth setup, on it's own, will not gurantee anything but it gives you a better chance than if you didn't have one.
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The thing with this is two best domestic examples of recent years are Man Utd and West Ham. The difference between the two was that Man Utd brought their lot into a sucessful side (likes of Schmichael, Keane, Cantona) and then bought on top of it (Yorke, Cole, Stam). West Ham didn't and the kids eventually got bought off by the big boys.
How successful we are with them and how long we keep them for is dependent on what we do alongside the emerging youth.
Your point seems to reflect this http://observer.guardian.co.uk/osm/story/0,,708220,00.html except Ajax were'nt receiving the kind of monies Villa currently recieve from just being in the Premier league.
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although tbf risso, neither did liverpool or man utd when it came to torres and ronaldo respectively...
its unfortunate when players want to leave, but all we can do when that happens is to get the best deal for them...
Whilst that's true in the case of Man U (and Arsenal to a certain extent, with Adebayor and Toure), it doesn't seem quite so bad if you're still challenging for trophies and qualifying for CL. Those sides could make a decent argument to say they haven't been too adversely affected by taking advantage of a business opportunity.
Where we are slightly different is that selling Barry and Milner has impacted on our status as one of the sides challenging in and around 4th. Both deals made a degree of financial sense at the time, but the simple fact of the matter is we didn't have the depth of squad to work around losing two players of that calibre.
as the gareth barry situation has proven, unfortunately, we would have been affected either way, as his performances were not the same after he wanted to leave...
best to cut losses and replace...
again, unfortunately, when barry was replaced with milner (and he performed better than barry), milner then wanted to leave, and the situation arose where we tried to replace milner when he wanted to leave with ireland... that didnt work out...
i dont think man utd have replaced ronaldo, yet arsenal replaced anelka...
swings and roundabouts...