Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: cdward on March 03, 2011, 09:54:29 AM
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Last nights motivation.
http://www.thefa.com/TheFACup/FACompetitions/TheFACup/FACupPages/FACupPrizeFund20082009
£1.8 million if you win the FA cup.
http://www.suite101.com/content/premier-league-prize-money-2010---how-much-do-football-clubs-get-a235614
or £12 to £7.2million for finishing 6th to 12th, essentially £800k for every league position higher.
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£1.8 million if you win the cup, £7.2 million if you finish 12th! F**king mental.
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You win the cup, you actually win a trophy, you finish 2nd to 17th, you don't win anything or go down.
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Portsmouth beat Cardiff in the final not too many years back - would we swap places with them now?
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Portsmouth beat Cardiff in the final not too many years back - would we swap places with them now?
In my mind, it's not an easy one to answer. Obviously we'd have to accept being in the Championship, but, on the other hand, imagine being able to say you saw Villa win the FA Cup? The whole point of football is about winning things isn't it?
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In my mind, it's not an easy one to answer. Obviously we'd have to accept being in the Championship, but, on the other hand, imagine being able to say you saw Villa win the FA Cup? The whole point of football is about winning things isn't it?
For fans yes for owners, perhaps not.
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Last nights motivation.
http://www.thefa.com/TheFACup/FACompetitions/TheFACup/FACupPages/FACupPrizeFund20082009
£1.8 million if you win the FA cup.
http://www.suite101.com/content/premier-league-prize-money-2010---how-much-do-football-clubs-get-a235614
or £12 to £7.2million for finishing 6th to 12th, essentially £800k for every league position higher.
The crux of the problem.
And that is why for the majority of modern day fans who actually go to games and whose team is not dining at the top table its been all completely bolloxed.
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£1.8m is prize money, surely the club get money from tickets, not to mention revenue in shirts etc?
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I'm an Aston villa fan - I want to see Aston villa win trophies, I'm not a businessman. There is no reason why Aston villa could not have put out their strongest available team last night and still finished in the top 12 this season- last night stinks of lack of ambition and lack of respect for fans and the fa cup.
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Portsmouth beat Cardiff in the final not too many years back - would we swap places with them now?
Assuming your talking positions only and not completely fruitloop finances in a ramshackle old ground with ownership changing every other week?
"8 times FA Cup winners Aston Villa entertain Sheffield United this weekend. With 12 games to play Villa are looking to close a 7 point gap and make the play offs"
Thats easy. YES!
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While last night's team was indefensible and my views on trophy v league place have been repeated ad nauseum, it's a sad indictment of football's priorities that if the current table is replicated at the end of the season, the total financial benefit of winning the FA Cup could be outweighed by winning one league game.
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It seems to me that a few years ago it wasn't an either/or decision. You tried your best to win every game, both in league and cup.
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The way some people were on here last night, it was as if that was the last time we ever enter the competition.
Did we really expect to win the Cup this season? Sure, the Blues won a cup, and the anger of seeing them win one was definitely still in our minds, trying to one-up them.
We're still in transition, we're still not out of the relegation places yet. If GH made a call to sacrifice the Cup to ensure League safety, so be it.
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Why does it have to be an either/or? Winning or drawing last night would mean losing to Bolton on Sat/getting relegated? We have/had the resources to get results in both games.
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How much do e-on pay to sponsor this trophy ?
Surely, it should be £15-20m for the winners
Somehow the FA needs to make clubs interested again, it's a shame but only money will address this
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Just a bit of dignity and respect for the fans would be nice. Why bother at all with the cup competitions if points mean prizes? Why don't we just fall on our sword at the first hurdle and concentrate on the league?
Makes me puke.
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We seem to be in a constant state of transition and making mid table finishes a priority. I'm sick of it.
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What about income from being in Europe as well?
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I'm an Aston villa fan - I want to see Aston villa win trophies, I'm not a businessman. There is no reason why Aston villa could not have put out their strongest available team last night and still finished in the top 12 this season- last night stinks of lack of ambition and lack of respect for fans and the fa cup.
Have to say--i agree 101% as fans we or i should hope the great majority of us want to see our club win trophies and to witness it first hand--be part of and feel the emotion and passion,,this sadly aint part of the businessmans edit!!
last night showed a clear lack of respect to our clubs supporters especially those that travelled only to be so badly let down!!
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How much do e-on pay to sponsor this trophy ?
Surely, it should be £15-20m for the winners
Somehow the FA needs to make clubs interested again, it's a shame but only money will address this
Even then it wont work because now its all about the worldwide TV audience. Try explaining to a 16 year old kid in Shanghai wearing a Man U shirt about Ronnie Radford scoring for Hereford against Newcastle, or the Matthews final, or Sunderland beating Leeds, or the White Horse in 1923, or Chasetown making it to the 1st round proper, or semi finals being played at VP and Hillsborough like they used to, singing Abide with me, the whole country coming to halt because its cup final day, open top bus civic receptions, scarfs and rattles.
Jumpers for goalposts ? You may as well have a couple of chop sticks with a satellite dish on the top.
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This is sadly true. The English fans still care passionately about the FA cup, but the TV driven revenue comes largely from overaeas, where they don't.
The only thing more depressing than that is the fact I honestly can't see it changing!
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It's not a fair comparison.
As others have pointed out there are tangible benefits from a Cup run, extra matchday revenue, TV revenue, qualification for Europe and the revenue from those matches.
But more important than that is the perception and status of Aston Villa.
Challenging for a mediocre League position and for one of the cups should not be too much for us. If it is, then how the hell are non-committed fans supposed to turn into casual fans, or casual fans into season-ticket holders, or people who buy lots of Villa merchandise?
And if that is our ambition - then how are we supposed to attract or retain better players?
Why should TV show our cup games, when our management appear not to give a toss?
Last night's selection was a sick joke - it's undermined all of the work the club have done to rehabilitate Houllier's reputation after a shocking start. We needed a riposte to all those Bluenose colleagues that were gloating - but you expect them to take the piss, you don't expect it of the club's own management.
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How much do e-on pay to sponsor this trophy ?
Surely, it should be £15-20m for the winners
Somehow the FA needs to make clubs interested again, it's a shame but only money will address this
A Champions League place for the winners and one less CL place in the League would help.
Again it's all money but it's an incentive when you are eyeing up a winnable quarter final and have absolutely no hope of third place.
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While last night's team was indefensible and my views on trophy v league place have been repeated ad nauseum, it's a sad indictment of football's priorities that if the current table is replicated at the end of the season, the total financial benefit of winning the FA Cup could be outweighed by winning one league game.
Exactly .. football is in a shocking state in this Country.
What I don't get, if we were in the bottom 3, then I may have some sympathy for Houllier, Saturday we have Bolton and although not out the woods, not as bad as we have been.
Whilst some of the changes were enforced, far too many were made for the sake of it. I feel that we could have taken both games on and maintained both fronts, especially considering that we have a 2 week break after that
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What about income from being in Europe as well?
Income from the Europa League is absolute peanuts
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Thing is though that the TV revenue and merchandising that come with a cup run also come when you're further up the league challenging. So the £7.2m and £1.8m comparison also works. Barring replays, the FA cup in 7 games, so lets be generous and say all 7 are televised. A team finishing 6th would have more than the 7 of their league games televised.
Whichever way you look at it, the league pays more and money talks in modern football.
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Thing is though that the TV revenue and merchandising that come with a cup run also come when you're further up the league challenging. So the £7.2m and £1.8m comparison also works. Barring replays, the FA cup in 7 games, so lets be generous and say all 7 are televised. A team finishing 6th would have more than the 7 of their league games televised.
What about finishing 6th and having a cup run?
And shouldn't you also be looking not at having 7 league games televised in isolation, but having 7 *more* games televised than a team finishing, say, 12th?
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Winning a trophy - or even getting to the latter stages and having a really good go- would have a knock on effect though, not just this season but when it comes to season tickets and the like next year. So the financial benefit could be far in excess of set money for finishing 7th-14th.
Fans will respond if they thinking we're putting things in place to compete. They won't if we go the opposite way and we do what we did last night, effectively telling the world we're closed for business.
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How much do e-on pay to sponsor this trophy ?
Surely, it should be £15-20m for the winners
Somehow the FA needs to make clubs interested again, it's a shame but only money will address this
Even then it wont work because now its all about the worldwide TV audience. Try explaining to a 16 year old kid in Shanghai wearing a Man U shirt about Ronnie Radford scoring for Hereford against Newcastle, or the Matthews final, or Sunderland beating Leeds, or the White Horse in 1923, or Chasetown making it to the 1st round proper, or semi finals being played at VP and Hillsborough like they used to, singing Abide with me, the whole country coming to halt because its cup final day, open top bus civic receptions, scarfs and rattles.
Jumpers for goalposts ? You may as well have a couple of chop sticks with a satellite dish on the top.
Andy, you have just described my normal Saturday night preaching to heathens in Shanghai! After our 7-1 drubbing at Chelsea last March a fellow genuinely said to me: "Why don't you change teams?" Fair play to him, he could take a good punch, but it was a genuine question as that is all that people are interested in now - winners in either the Premier League or the Chumps League. And if your team is flailing for 6 games then switch horses mid-race and jump to whichever of the Sky 4 is top of the heap.
We really should have been in a position to put a competitive team out last night and still have a pop at Bolton on Saturday. I really hope we win there, obviously for the 3 points and all the benefits it will bring to our position, but also because it will ease pressure on GH and the last thing we need now is talk of switching managers.
As Chico said to me after Moscow "Nobody ever had a tattoo done after finishing 4th in the table, but some people do after winning the cup". I'm still dreaming of my tattoo and it is not mutually incompatible with a good league position.
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It's not a fair comparison.
As others have pointed out there are tangible benefits from a Cup run, extra matchday revenue, TV revenue, qualification for Europe and the revenue from those matches.
But more important than that is the perception and status of Aston Villa.
Challenging for a mediocre League position and for one of the cups should not be too much for us. If it is, then how the hell are non-committed fans supposed to turn into casual fans, or casual fans into season-ticket holders, or people who buy lots of Villa merchandise?
And if that is our ambition - then how are we supposed to attract or retain better players?
Why should TV show our cup games, when our management appear not to give a toss?
Last night's selection was a sick joke - it's undermined all of the work the club have done to rehabilitate Houllier's reputation after a shocking start. We needed a riposte to all those Bluenose colleagues that were gloating - but you expect them to take the piss, you don't expect it of the club's own management.
Add all the income from a cup run - prize money, gates, souvenirs, even running coaches to away games, and it still comes nowhere near the amount you get from finishing a handful of places higher in the league. What's worse is that modern supporters have bought into this idea, and see seventh as better than 15th and winning a cup. While we're castigating the team selection last night, have a look at the attendance. If supporters who get 35 years without a trophy thrown at them daily can't be arsed, who can?
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League Cup winners prize money is £100,000
Finishing 20th in the PL is worth £800,000.
FA Cup winners £1.8m
So maybe we should all start looking at our history and achievements on the balance sheet, so our 5 League Cups are worth less than 1 relegation from the PL, and our 7 FA Cups are worth about the same as a 6th place PL finish, puts it all into perspective.
Sad state of affairs.
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Thats just prize money.
Just imagine the FA Cup winners replica shirts or souveners that we would been available to sell.
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pauliebentnuts - I agree with you!
I was pointing out the large differential in cup to league finances, not saying both is impossible or that we should think of money ahead of a trophy.
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i was one that never thought we were in danger of going down, and have fully supported Houllier all the way so far, so far up untill last night,
i couldnt give a toss whether we finish 15 or 10 in the league this year, the FA cup for me was the priority.
if we had been playing in a game last night where we had to win to stay up or win to make the top 4, he would never ever have played that side,
no matter what the foriegn managers says no matter how many times they are told they will never never get and understand the FA Cup like we do.
we would have had to play very well with are best players to beat Man City last night, and even then it would have been difficult, but we should have given it are best shot, i think we could have accepted that,
i was very critical of MON over the Moskow debacle, i like GH a million times more than MON, but i wont be hypocritical, he got it badly wrong last night,
the lowest point in his short reign for me
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i was one that never thought we were in danger of going down, and have fully supported Houllier all the way so far, so far up untill last night,
i couldnt give a toss whether we finish 15 or 10 in the league this year, the FA cup for me was the priority.
if we had been playing in a game last night where we had to win to stay up or win to make the top 4, he would never ever have played that side,
no matter what the foriegn managers says no matter how many times they are told they will never never get and understand the FA Cup like we do.
we would have had to play very well with are best players to beat Man City last night, and even then it would have been difficult, but we should have given it are best shot, i think we could have accepted that,
i was very critical of MON over the Moskow debacle, i like GH a million times more than MON, but i wont be hypocritical, he got it badly wrong last night,
the lowest point in his short reign for me
spot on john e
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This is my first post on here but after watching last night's debacle, I felt I had to vent my anger. I am 36 years old and a life long Villa fan and am utterly appalled and the decision by GH not to field the team to win the game last night. I agree totally with John E previousy. Furthermore, after the Bolton game on Saturday, we have two weeks without any football whatsover so if it was done to rest the likes of Young, Albrighton, Downing etc, they have ample time to recover and put their feet up during the subsequent 13 days.
On the back of a confidence boosting result against Blackburn, play the god damn best side and IF we're not on for a result in the game, substitute the players you want for a rest. Is an hour's worth of football really going to impact on a professional athlete's stamina? I run and train every morning for two hours from 6am, then do a 9 to 10 hour day.....let them come visit my world and see how fatigue can set in sometimes. I'm not blaming the players at all, but to say that they could not play for 90 minutes no a Wednesday in advance of a match on Saturday is a disgrace and an insult to the fans who work hard to pay for match tickets! I enjoyed two trips to Wembley last year and despite the results, they were memorable days out. I want to be able to take my young lad who is at the right age now, but alas, it won't be this year. Are we really relegation material....no, of course not. And will last night make any difference to whether we finish 14 or 9th........highly unlikely. Would we have taken a huge amount of momentum and confidence if we had got a result last night.........You tell me!!!
A few positives from last night starting with Bannan who I think will evolve to become an amazing playmaker; that fella certainly has some stamina and I guarantee he'd run as many miles and produce as many passes against Bolton on Saturday as he did last night, should be play.
The other positives were the fabulous away fans and the skill to play head keepy'ups in the stands with the match ball, i hope they got to keep the ball afterwards :-)
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rykaard - welcome and great 1st post my friend.
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I would rather have silverware on the table at the end of the season.
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Depends where the club budget for us finishing before the season. After the last few seasons, 6th or 7th is a reasonable guess.
Mental selection last night.
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I am really at a loss with this 'either or' theory. Why has doing well in the cup and well in the league become mutually exclusive these days? Its not as if we are overloaded with games and struggling to cope. Who needed a rest? Six games the cup adds to the season, thats all, and thats if you go all the way to the final. There was no choice that needed to be made last night in the first place. Play your best eleven fit players and try to win the match, then do the same next week. There was no reason for last nights surrender. Aston Villa dont turn out just to make the numbers up for f**ks sake. The fans that travelled certainly didnt have that in mind . What an illjudged pile of gutless bullshit.
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Last nights motivation.
http://www.thefa.com/TheFACup/FACompetitions/TheFACup/FACupPages/FACupPrizeFund20082009
£1.8 million if you win the FA cup.
http://www.suite101.com/content/premier-league-prize-money-2010---how-much-do-football-clubs-get-a235614
or £12 to £7.2million for finishing 6th to 12th, essentially £800k for every league position higher.
BlueNose in peace.
I fear your answer lies here
Your recent accounts, and the alleged spat between MON & RL over selling players/cutting wage bills demonstrate that you need to cut your cloth accordingly.
It's in black & white that you need to get rid of underperforming high-earners, you have to amortise Bent's signing over the next few years at 4-6M per year.
I'm sure nobody believes you will be relegated, but that's not the point.
Even beating Man City would not guarantee you a Cup win - semi final winners/runners-up only get 900k
However, with the league so tight this year, 3 points could mean 3 places or 2.4M
That will go a lot further to plugging the hole in your Finances, and maybe give you the extra cash to make quality signings to pull you back up the table to where the money is
I think Houllier's selection for the Citeh game was influenced by this
A very sad day for football fans of any colours
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I expect a respectable league position and to have a good go at trying to win the cups.
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Blue Nose Badger, welcome to you, and some very valid objective points made there.
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Blue Nose Badger, welcome to you, and some very valid objective points made there.
Seconded.
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Blue Nose Badger, welcome to you, and some very valid objective points made there.
Seconded.
I agree but it still doesn't win us any trophies does it!
Or for that matter does it impress the new generation of fans, such as my youngest son who like me just wants to see Villa win every match playing the strongest team possible. 110% is all we ask!
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The finances cannot be disoputed.
Whether or not we NEEDED to rest all those players, as in they could have played and still been OK for Saturday, is another matter!
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If we had games coming up thick and fast it might just be forgivable. But we haven't.
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Gareth Southgate has "lashed out" at GH in the same French magazine that that bald prick gave his interview. He thought is was a shame GH put out a weakened side.
"Houllier has exposed himself to numerous critics, most of that squad were 21 years old or less"
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Southgate was probably misquoted. What he no doubt said was " I'm delighted to have secured tickets for the Take That concert in Manchester for myself and the family. That Stephen Ireland is a proper tosser is he not?".