Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: peter w on February 21, 2011, 09:35:43 PM
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just don't have to be said
I know how we both feel
The heart can rule the head
but anyway, I digress.
i was talking with a friend of mine on Saturday as we were chewing the cud over football, referees, players and the like. we were talking about Michael owen and his apparent happiness to sit on Man Us bench and get a wage rather than go to a lower placed club, or lower league club and fight for a place, or to have the pressure on him to score goals.
He went on tot ell me about when ex-Everton Craig Short went over to his to stay and they were having the same kind of discussion. They knew each other because they were both at Scarborough together - my mate was in the team that went up to the then Div4, not sure if Short was still there then. He said that he asked Craig Short what was the big difference for him being in the dressing-room at that level.
Craig Short said that the biggest difference was that in the days at Scarborough everybody was pulling together and all lived and breathed the game, and would fight for each other. At the highest level, he said, that wasn't the case. he said that Anders Limpar absolutely hated the game. Everything to do with football he despised. Not just the modern day take on the money and it becoming too corporate, but that he just got paid very well for doing something he cared nothing for.
It shows the dedication, I suppose, for someone to put the hard work in in training, and in games, for doing something that you really do not enjoy. having accepted that it changed my mind a little on Michael Owen. maybe football isn't his love at all. Horse racing is obviously, and gambling as well, but I wonder how many players are playing to the standard they are when not liking what they do.
Its easy to just say leave your job if you don't like it, but if you're going to do something that pays nothing in comparison that is an almighty spur. But do these players deserve more credit for being able to stay at a level despite not having the love for what we see as an emotive game, job. Is football really just a job to all players? Is it the ian Taylors that are in the minority?
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just don't have to be said
I know how we both feel
The heart can rule the head
but anyway, I digress.
i was talking with a friend of mine on Saturday as we were chewing the cud over football, referees, players and the like. we were talking about Michael owen and his apparent happiness to sit on Man Us bench and get a wage rather than go to a lower placed club, or lower league club and fight for a place, or to have the pressure on him to score goals.
He went on tot ell me about when ex-Everton Craig Short went over to his to stay and they were having the same kind of discussion. They knew each other because they were both at Scarborough together - my mate was in the team that went up to the then Div4, not sure if Short was still there then. He said that he asked Craig Short what was the big difference for him being in the dressing-room at that level.
Craig Short said that the biggest difference was that in the days at Scarborough everybody was pulling together and all lived and breathed the game, and would fight for each other. At the highest level, he said, that wasn't the case. he said that Anders Limpar absolutely hated the game. Everything to do with football he despised. Not just the modern day take on the money and it becoming too corporate, but that he just got paid very well for doing something he cared nothing for.
It shows the dedication, I suppose, for someone to put the hard work in in training, and in games, for doing something that you really do not enjoy. having accepted that it changed my mind a little on Michael Owen. maybe football isn't his love at all. Horse racing is obviously, and gambling as well, but I wonder how many players are playing to the standard they are when not liking what they do.
Its easy to just say leave your job if you don't like it, but if you're going to do something that pays nothing in comparison that is an almighty spur. But do these players deserve more credit for being able to stay at a level despite not having the love for what we see as an emotive game, job. Is football really just a job to all players? Is it the ian Taylors that are in the minority?
For a lot of people football is an escape from the daily grind. So what if your daily grind is football?
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I'd be more than happy to sit on Utd's bench, no matter how much I hated football, and pick up a fortune.
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I thought it was fairly well documented that most players don't think of it as much more than a job.
The likes of Mellberg, Gallas and Assou-Ekotto are fairly well-known for not really caring about it as any more than a pay packet.
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So should they be admired for the dedication that has to be shown to be able to train and play as well as they do at the top level?
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I'm always in two minds when I read about a player who clearly doesn't think much of his profession. On the one hand, I like the fact that there are some who know it's a job and treat it accordingly, particularly as being a modest kind of chap myself, I appreciate it in others. But then it's not a job like most jobs, and I do like the glamour element of someone living out a boyhood dream that I'll never attain. I hate it when rock stars, for example, bang on about a daily grind. So really it comes down to if I think the bloke's a cock, I suppose.
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Football is an utterly trivial business and I can see how an intelligent person could be bemused at earning so much money to do it.
For them it's just a knack, only the really stupid ones can go through their whole career without finding it all a bit absurd.
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Every game is difficult.
The ball is round.
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I'm always in two minds when I read about a player who clearly doesn't think much of his profession. On the one hand, I like the fact that there are some who know it's a job and treat it accordingly, particularly as being a modest kind of chap myself, I appreciate it in others. But then it's not a job like most jobs, and I do like the glamour element of someone living out a boyhood dream that I'll never attain. I hate it when rock stars, for example, bang on about a daily grind. So really it comes down to if I think the bloke's a cock, I suppose.
When you have to do it every day, it can be a grind. There are probably billions of people for who yours and my lifestyles are as much a dream as playing football is to us and can't believe that we can moan about such trivialities as having to catch a crowded train to earn tens of thousands of pounds a year.
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I'm always in two minds when I read about a player who clearly doesn't think much of his profession. On the one hand, I like the fact that there are some who know it's a job and treat it accordingly, particularly as being a modest kind of chap myself, I appreciate it in others. But then it's not a job like most jobs, and I do like the glamour element of someone living out a boyhood dream that I'll never attain. I hate it when rock stars, for example, bang on about a daily grind. So really it comes down to if I think the bloke's a cock, I suppose.
When you have to do it every day, it can be a grind. There are probably billions of people for who yours and my lifestyles are as much a dream as playing football is to us and can't believe that we can moan about such trivialities as having to catch a crowded train to earn tens of thousands of pounds a year.
True, true.
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being a pro footballer is a pretty shallow life, and i dont think it is as much fun as it was twenty + years ago. if i had been good enough i would have done it, i allways feel sorry for the guys that dont quite make it and give up any other sort of career to earn a mediocre wage just to play and end up with nothing at the end
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Never heard that Mellberg didn't particularly care about the game.
He certainly didn't play as if he didn't care.
It was mentioned on here (a few weeks before he joined) that someone was doing work at James Collins' house and tried to engage him about general football chit chat, asking him if he watched the game last night. Collins was apparently polite but admitted that he didn't really follow the game outside of what he absolutely needed to know. Just no interest in it.
There was another lad (funnily enough also from West Ham) a few years back who was asked about his favorite player growing up in one of those magazine questionnaires. He said he didn't follow football growing up, just played it and was good at it.
There are probably quite a few players that applies to, we've most likely got some on our books. I seem to recall Gabby being interviewed the day after the Everton 1-1 game back in MON's first season, the main thrust of the interview being it must have been a joy for him to score at the end where he used to watch his heroes. He didn't play along. His response? "Nah. I didn't stand there. I never watched football."
In Owen's defence I'm sure I've read various reports that he was an Everton fan growing up. But yes, for many I'm sure it is just a job.
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The players who baffle me are those like Keown and Lee Dixon who avoided the media like the plague while they were playing, then afterwards want to re-invent themselves as pundits.
'model professionals' you can count on the fingers of one hand. People who played with honesty and sincerity at the very top, and stayed long enough to have a positive influence on the game.
Sid Cowans. Ryan Giggs. Errr...
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I'd be more than happy to sit on Utd's bench, no matter how much I hated football, and pick up a fortune.
But if you had as much talent as Owen surely you'd want to play
When he's older and his career is over, I'm sure he'll look back and regret he missed so many games
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Owen has said himself in recent years that he'd rather be playing 20+ games in all competitions for a club like Man U rather than playing 40+ games for a struggling side.
The 20 games part is realistic on his part, owing to his fitness and place in the pecking order.
For me, that's not as bad as a Winson Bogarde, Hassan Kachloul, Wayne Bridge or even Habib Beye being quite happy to pick up their pay packet and not play at all, rather than someone who wants to feature in big games for a big club -even if it is only a bit part role.
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For me, that's not as bad as a Winson Bogarde, Hassan Kachloul, Wayne Bridge or even Habib Beye being quite happy to pick up their pay packet and not play at all, rather than someone who wants to feature in big games for a big club -even if it is only a bit part role.
And I would argue that it is more evidence of hypocrisy on the part of the average fan.
We're all keen to have players who are happy to be 'part of a squad', to 'play when they're needed and not cause a fuss when they're rotated' but as soon as a player indicates that he's happy to do just that then apparently they're just an unmotivated, money-grabbing waste of a salary.
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Maybe we forget, or don't understand, just how much football takes over their lives. I would imagine that from an early age everything else takes second place - Chris Green in one of his books writes about watching a game where one of the players was still wearing a nappy. When you're in such a situation it must be easy to regard it as a necessary evil that pays the bills.
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Part of a squad is fine.
If it's a player -like Owen- who accepts that he'll only play a bit part role.
When you have a scenario that the above four faced - not playing at all, and they were/are quite happy to sit tight and pocket wages for zero games and zero contribution, that's a bit different. At some point you'd think personal pride would kick in. That, or the fear of waisting the best years of their career rotting in the reserves.
It's always easier to advocate that someone else should take a hit on their wages, and move on as a point of principle, of course. But I don't think many fans would have any sympathy/ respect for players who aren't actually bothered about playing.
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Part of a squad is fine.
If it's a player -like Owen- who accepts that he'll only play a bit part role.
When you have a scenario that the above four faced - not playing at all, and they were/are quite happy to sit tight and pocket wages for zero games and zero contribution, that's a bit different. At some point you'd think personal pride would kick in. That, or the fear of waisting the best years of their career rotting in the reserves.
The one uniting factor of the above four players and scores of others is that they had achieved most of the stuff that they were ever likely to achieve and were on a contract far in excess of their talents.
Someone who is 22 and happy to sign a five-year contract and sit on the bench, I would agree that there is something questionable there (although not necessarily wrong). But people who are coming to the end of their careers and who want to make the best of the situation for them and their family because someone has stupidly agreed to pay them more than they are worth - best of luck to them.
I can say hand on heart that if I were in their position I would be no different.
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Hassan Kachloul was just about at his peak when he joined us. Bridge had just got into the England squad at Southampton and was in his mid 20's IIRC.
Beye was into his 30's so, yes, you could say he seen us coming and decided to cash in.
The financial aspect is always going to be a huge factor and -as I mentioned- it's easier to advocate that someone should go elsewhere for less money when it's not a decision that impacts on you personally.
I would just think that a footballers career is so short that you'd want to pack as many memories and good experiences as possible. Sitting on a bench -or in the stands- when you could actively be involved and play a key role for another club would be a waste of that time.
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Hassan Kachloul was just about at his peak when he joined us. Bridge had just got into the England squad at Southampton and was in his mid 20's IIRC.
Bridge won the FA Cup, the Premier League and the League Cup and scored the winning goal in a Champions League quarter final. That's a huge amount than a hundreds of more talented players have ever achieved.
He can then dine out on those memories for the rest of his life while earning three times as much as any club would sensibly pay him. I say well done to him. The next four generations of his family are made for life through his (relatively) meagre talent.
I would just think that a footballers career is so short that you'd want to pack as many memories and good experiences as possible. Sitting on a bench -or in the stands- when you could actively be involved and play a key role for another club would be a waste of that time.
But it's also short and you need to make as much money doing the only thing you really know how to do.
If you could be sitting on Villa's bench at age 30 earning £30k per week, there's no reason why you would go to Derby to earn half that.
What else is Kachloul (to use your example) likely to achieve in those couple of years while sacrificing a huge amount of money?
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Kachloul bought a piano off a H&Ver while at Villa so at least he was productive in some capacity while at the club.
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Don't really have an issue with any of that.
It's the system at fault, and mug clubs offering those sums without a long term strategy as to how best to to utilise the players in question.
But the average fan will still have little sympathy/respect for those individuals who make it clear they see their club as a cash cow and nothing more. Deep down we probably know that's the case anyway. We just don't want our noses rubbed in it.
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Don't really have an issue with any of that.
*high-fives*
Let's get our application in to succeed Blatter on a joint-ticket basis. We'll get it sorted.
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Players have a short career so they wan't to make as much as money as possible i know it's wrong but what can we do.
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I'd say that some footballers love playing and being the very best that they can, the prime example is David Beckham.
At the other end of the spectrum you get some who really are just in it for the money and will do just enough to maintain their life style, see Stephen Ireland.
Edit: That's probably not much different from most jobs.
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I'd say that some footballers love playing and being the very best that they can, the prime example is David Beckham.
At the other end of the spectrum you get some who really are just in it for the money and will do just enough to maintain their life style, see Stephen Ireland.
Edit: That's probably not much different from most jobs.
I don't think the problem with Ireland is that he's more interested in money than football. I think the problem is that he's completely mental.
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I'd be more than happy to sit on Utd's bench, no matter how much I hated football, and pick up a fortune.
But if you had as much talent as Owen surely you'd want to play
When he's older and his career is over, I'm sure he'll look back and regret he missed so many games
I don't think that's what Peter's initial post is getting at. More the fact that if he hated he game, should he be admired for for giving 100% in training, etc and sticking with it. Of course, if I was as good as he is i'd want to be playing but regardless of how much he hates or loves the game i'd be happy to sit there and pick up millions.
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i'd be happy to sit on UTD's bench especially in the winter when its cold, I'd much rather have a wooly hat, Gloves and Tracksuit bottoms rather than run around in shorts
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They knew each other because they were both at Scarborough together - my mate was in the team that went up to the then Div4,
Slight tangent here, but every time I think of Scarbrough's first match in the football league I think of that Dog-Head, showing off at the McCain stadium and falling through the roof.
Makes me laugh every time
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way-heyyy!!
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I remember that well, he wasn't that badly hurt was he?
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I remember that well, he wasn't that badly hurt was he?
No, he landed on his head.
The above was brought to you by Predictable Replies Inc.
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Every game is difficult.
The ball is round.
It would be harder if it was square or egg shaped....
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I remember that well, he wasn't that badly hurt was he?
No, he landed on his head.
The above was brought to you by Predictable Replies Inc.
His own fault, weed the stupid ones out of the gene pool.
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The likes of Mellberg, Gallas and Assou-Ekotto are fairly well-known for not really caring about it as any more than a pay packet.
So why was he made captain at Arsenal and what was all this sulking on the pitch stuff about?
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way-heyyy!!
Fooling around on an asbestos roof at a footie game, those were the days
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That is hillarious
What year was that?
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81ish I reckon
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Mid 80s ish as I vaguely recall
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I looked it up earlier when the clip was posted. 1987, Scarborough's first game in the old 4th division.
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amazed theres no footage of that parachutist hitting the Trinity Roof then rolling off
I also remember a parachutist landing at B6 around 1978 / 79 pre Liverpool i think with the matchball. He landed right smack on the centre circle. As a 10 yr old at the time I thought it was awesome
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Glory days for Wolves. `South Bank, give us a song', chanted at an empty and derelict stand.
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I used to go to the tatters a bit with my mate when they were down in the depths, there was something quite charming about them still calling the then John Ireland Stand, the new stand, fifteen years after it had been built.