Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: dave.woodhall on December 28, 2010, 10:57:04 PM
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It's not exclusively about Villa, or Houllier, but it's something I honestly don't get.
Players such as most of ours have been playing football seriously almost since they could walk. At every stage they've been the best of their contemporaries, but also the keenest, the hardest-working and the most dedicated. If they hadn't been, they wouldn't have got this far.
They'll have played for dozens of managers and coaches, not got on with some, and a few will have been nowhere near the level their ability required. Yet they would have had to play their hearts out for every one, otherwise they'd never have got to the next level.
So why is it that having got this far, they quite clearly decide they don't want to perform to anywhere near their best, whether that's because they don't get on with the manager, or for some other reason? Not just at Villa, but so often elsewhere as well.
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Easy one this Dave money=power.
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I personally feel they have (at the Villa now) forgotten how to win. They have no belief. This negativity in their mind rubs through to their body language and to us it just looks like they don't give a shit.
I really believe the management can and should be doing their utmost to change this, sadly I don't thing GH and co can.
MON was very good at this, I know he had his faults but he always (well nearly) got 100% out of the players.
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The more I think about this, I don't think its to do with money. If you like playing football, its in your blood, you love it.
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The more I think about this, I don't think its to do with money. If you like playing football, its in your blood, you love it.
Get paid 20K a week it might change your mind.
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Problems is when players are in nice juicy contract they will not give it up.
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In our case, I don't think they have decided that they don't want to perform or are not trying. They're not performing because they are coming up against teams with better formations, tactics, teamwork and coaching.
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MON was very good at this, I know he had his faults but he always (well nearly) got 100% out of the players.
Yeah, apart from Luke Young, Nicky Shorey, Habib Beye, Steve Sidwell, Curtis Davies, Marlon Harewood, Shaun Maloney, and Nigel Reo-Coker.
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In our case, I don't think they have decided that they don't want to perform or are not trying. They're not performing because they are coming up against teams with better formations, tactics, teamwork and coaching.
I'd have been more likely to agree with that before today.
Thank god there's no MOTD
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As I just posted on another thread, they forget who they play for. They don't play for the manager or the chairman, they forget that they play for us the supporters.
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I think it's a combination of unmotivated players AND poor coaching. A perfect storm that's going to end in relegation if Houllier isn't sacked.
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When I was a lad I was on the books of Birmingham City. It was an opportunity for me to try and get on in the game and I gave everything to do so. I was fortunate to get that far if truth be told as my game relied very much on my willingness to work, my fitness, my desire and my passion. For all of that time I was at Birmingham City I hated it wearing their shitty badge, but I gave everything for them in the hope that one day I might better myself. I'll always be appreciative of being given that chance.
I know the players (Gabby, Fonz and Albrighton aside) aren't fans and have no loyalty to the club, but as a 16 year old I gave everything for Birmingham to try and get on in the game - without luck. I guess the answer is the fact these players 'earn' fucking obscene money and clearly don't give a shit.
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What I don't understand is how well Warnock played in his first six months for us, got injured and how poorly he's played for the last six months?
It can't just be because he was rushed back from injury for the cup final, he's one very cupable player who just seems to have given up and wants to go evidently.
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MON was very good at this, I know he had his faults but he always (well nearly) got 100% out of the players.
Yeah, apart from Luke Young, Nicky Shorey, Habib Beye, Steve Sidwell, Curtis Davies, Marlon Harewood, Shaun Maloney, and Nigel Reo-Coker.
Ok you can not give or improve a players quality if it is not there but most on that list under MON (esp Marlon, Young and Reo) they always gave it their best shot and the body language never looked as if they didnt give a toss.
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Too many similar types in the squad. No motivators and leaders on the pitch (not had one since Martin Laursen). The reason we reached 6th and could go no higher.
We have a team that play well when they all play well together. When 2 or 3 play below the best, the rest do not seem able to cover for them or have the desire to want to try and lift them.
Never thought I would ever think it, let alone say it, but I think we need a couple of nasty b******s in the side.
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They earn £50k per week for putting in the bare minimum.
When they occasionally try we sing their names and they get an extra £50K bonus.
When they actually try consistently and effectively they get whisked off to the 'big clubs' and we don't see them again until they're on the way down.
We're mugs.
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MON was very good at this, I know he had his faults but he always (well nearly) got 100% out of the players.
Yeah, apart from Luke Young, Nicky Shorey, Habib Beye, Steve Sidwell, Curtis Davies, Marlon Harewood, Shaun Maloney, and Nigel Reo-Coker.
Ok you can not give or improve a players quality if it is not there but most on that list under MON (esp Marlon, Young and Reo) they always gave it their best shot and the body language never looked as if they didnt give a toss.
Eh?
So now much was NRC giving after his training ground brawl and subsequent banishment?
And now much was Marlon giving after his "disappearing" post Tottenham away?
I'm not saying MON was a terrible motivator at all, but to claim he got 100 percent nearly all the time is blatantly not the case, given his rep for falling out with players, as well as the "buy them then notice they're shite" thing.
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The players have no massive affinity with the club. In the main they are mercenaries.
How many would stick around if the unthinkable happened? Not many. They'd be off to whoever was maintaining their bank balance.
Money is killing football and we risk being a victim.
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As I just posted on another thread, they forget who they play for. They don't play for the manager or the chairman, they forget that they play for us the supporters.
In todays football they play for themselves, end of story. The money and the glory, in that order. if you think otherwise, I think you are being a little naive.
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A happy work force is a good work force.
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They way we played today (especially first half hour) it was almost as if they were trying to lose so it put pressure on Houllier to get the boot. Either that or some of them had a few quid on City to win. Disgrace.
What was worse is that at no time during the game did you see Houllier or McAllister stood in the technical area, when Mancini spent 90% of his time there shouting orders, even at 4-0 up.
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All I'm trying to say is that our team under MON generally gave its all. I really believe the players out there at the moment just don't know how to win, there is no belief and probably as someone else mentioned no tactical know how.
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I don't think we have any winners in our side and that has been a problem for a while now. We don't seem to have any players that have that fire and determination in them. I also think we have got a number of players that have reached that age where they just don't care, they are happy to just pick up their wages.
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Motivation is a very fluid concept. What motivated you last week might not motivate you today, what motivated you today might not motivate you next week - and so on.
As you achieve things both personally and professionally, the desire to improve has to come from somewhere. It might be financial, an innate desire to be the best, or fear of failure.
I don't think it's a case of certain players not caring about performances and results, I just think they don't care 'as much' as they perhaps once did. You can see the desire in the younger players, but maybe they lack the pure ability of those with more talent, and less desire.
I guess this is why certain managers earn the big bucks, because motivating a room full of multi-millionaires, with medals galore in their careers, must be nigh-on impossible.
For all the dour football we were treated to, one thing people always said about MoN was his uncanny ability to motivate players. Perhaps we're seeing the effect of removing that motivating factor?
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To go back to the original point, why do players who have spent their entire lives being self-motivated and single-minded to the point of obsession suddenly lose this desire? Is it all just about money?
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MON was very good at this, I know he had his faults but he always (well nearly) got 100% out of the players.
Yeah, apart from Luke Young, Nicky Shorey, Habib Beye, Steve Sidwell, Curtis Davies, Marlon Harewood, Shaun Maloney, and Nigel Reo-Coker.
Ok you can not give or improve a players quality if it is not there but most on that list under MON (esp Marlon, Young and Reo) they always gave it their best shot and the body language never looked as if they didnt give a toss.
Eh?
So now much was NRC giving after his training ground brawl and subsequent banishment?
And now much was Marlon giving after his "disappearing" post Tottenham away?
I'm not saying MON was a terrible motivator at all, but to claim he got 100 percent nearly all the time is blatantly not the case, given his rep for falling out with players, as well as the "buy them then notice they're shite" thing.
There's not a lot of point doing this again but which players would you have dropped in order to play those you've listed? By and large there were players on the pitch in their positions who were at least as good if not better. NRC is the most common example given of this but he really only lost his place when Downing was fit and Milner moved into the centre.
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Nobby Stiles had a autobiography where when manager of Preston for three years he essentially implied footballers are not too intelegent!
The first season in charge, Preston were promoted, the second season nearly promoted again. The third season Mr Stiles decided that the team was mature enough and let them get on with it. The result was near relegation and the sack. He asked his captain at the end of the season what went wrong to be told 'he stopped giving them ear ache'.
Are we too nice? We need to win ugly to stay in the Prem and it means getting the basics right and a -14 goal difference is not acceptable.
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MON was very good at this, I know he had his faults but he always (well nearly) got 100% out of the players.
Yeah, apart from Luke Young, Nicky Shorey, Habib Beye, Steve Sidwell, Curtis Davies, Marlon Harewood, Shaun Maloney, and Nigel Reo-Coker.
Ok you can not give or improve a players quality if it is not there but most on that list under MON (esp Marlon, Young and Reo) they always gave it their best shot and the body language never looked as if they didnt give a toss.
Eh?
So now much was NRC giving after his training ground brawl and subsequent banishment?
And now much was Marlon giving after his "disappearing" post Tottenham away?
I'm not saying MON was a terrible motivator at all, but to claim he got 100 percent nearly all the time is blatantly not the case, given his rep for falling out with players, as well as the "buy them then notice they're shite" thing.
There's not a lot of point doing this again but which players would you have dropped in order to play those you've listed? By and large there were players on the pitch in their positions who were at least as good if not better. NRC is the most common example given of this but he really only lost his place when Downing was fit and Milner moved into the centre.
I'm talking about the suggestion he got 100 percent out of nearly all his players. I pointed out that he wasnt by any means a shit motivator, but also that to suggest he was nigh on perfect is patently ridiculous.
If you reckon he got 100 percent out of any of those, then please feel free to point out how he did it.
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To go back to the original point, why do players who have spent their entire lives being self-motivated and single-minded to the point of obsession suddenly lose this desire? Is it all just about money?
Without wishing to go all psychology student on you, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs talks about how motivating factors disappear once you achieve them. The motivation to get a house disappears when you get a house, the motivation for financial security disappears when you sign a four year contract at the Villa etc.
I'm sure every players starts out wanting to be the best in the game, but I'm also confident that after a while they think, "Yeah, I'm happy being in the top hundred and being a millionaire", and the desire for personal achievement lessens as a result.
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I don't get it either. Most of the time our performances are actually good, but still lose as there is no self-belief in the team. What happened to the belief in our players who rallied from 2-0 down in the 2nd leg of the Carling Cup to come back and win in style? That's the sort of belief i'm talking about.
We're certainly nowhere near as bad as the West Ham's, Wolves, Fulham's, small heath's, Wigan's etc... we're just not getting the job done and apart from the obvious cock-ups from Collins and conceding silly goals there's something else we're not doing right.
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To go back to the original point, why do players who have spent their entire lives being self-motivated and single-minded to the point of obsession suddenly lose this desire? Is it all just about money?
Without wishing to go all psychology student on you, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs talks about how motivating factors disappear once you achieve them. The motivation to get a house disappears when you get a house, the motivation for financial security disappears when you sign a four year contract at the Villa etc.
I'm sure every players starts out wanting to be the best in the game, but I'm also confident that after a while they think, "Yeah, I'm happy being in the top hundred and being a millionaire", and the desire for personal achievement lessens as a result.
It happens the same with bands though, once they make it the creativity and energy that got them there is subdued by the bank balance. Only the ones that can continue to motivate themselves carry on being successful/creative. They are the exception rather than the rule though.
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We were beaten today by a team with more motivated-by-money-only players than any team in Europe. Unfortunately, they're also largely very good motivated-by-money-only players.
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Players have to be happy. If they have a boss they don't like, or are being asked to do things they're not comfortable with, or don't agree with, then their game will suffer because the attitude isn't right. Then there's the ambition shown by the club. If it looks like we're setting our stall out not to compete, not to push for the Champions League by not buying the top players or paying the top wages, then it affects the mindset of the players. They think we'll be happy to settle for mediocrity, that we've given up. If players feel that their working environment is not geared for success, then they will not expect to succeed, and they will also feel that success is not expected of them. If the club shows a lack of direction, then the same lack of direction will manifest itself on the pitch. Put it all together and you've got a recipe for failure.
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There is no doubt that two essential and probably only factors that matter in any chosen trade are talent and application. Those who reach the highest level in their trade have both of these in abundance. Others have both of these but to a varying degrees and that sets the ceiling for how far they can progress. Simply having talent withoput application is no good however having a little talent and loads of application usually takes you quite far. This comes from a hunger to succeed. A team is successfull if is has all the different talents required to make it work however the top team will always be the one where every individual displays an insatiable hunger for success. Success means achievment, recognition and rise in personal value.
The way football is working now days these 3 factors are either unattainable or given at the start. There are only a few teams that can achieve and therefore only players playing for those teams are recognised. However the worth of personal value is predelivered in the form of the contract players sign. After about 20K a week it really does not matter and the fact the payment is not performance based even better.
So unless you play for those teams that are going to win everything there is no point in breaking sweat after all it's not as if you are going to get paid any less. So application is neglected.
The only players who breakout of this cycle or more to the point not in this cycle are players of newly promoted teams. They still have the hunger, desire and the winning mentality from not so long ago. It usually takes a season and half to knock that out of them.
Footballers like any "pack" need that winning mindset application and in the short term a good motivator can make them believe that they are it. However this loses it's appeal once a team just developing a winning minset ends up winning nothing.
That is why it was important that we won something last year after great progress in both cups, however the worst possible thing happened to us that we lost both to the teams that are seen as Winners. That convinced the players that we can not win. In fact it would have been better if we has lost in both cups to say Portsmouth or Bolton.
If you look at Saunders team, as the team developed , it started winning. To win the League cup in 75 and 77 gave us the winning mindset that evantually resulted in the League and European titles. I would say that if we had not won those cups we would not have progressed as we did.
So Dave the answer to your question, in my mind, is that our players have accepted their position, their rank in the pecking order and are just about comfortable with non achievement. The only way to address this is to remove them or install a new motivator.
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Clearly I can't speak as a footballer or even a football manager (three seasons managing the joint Home Office/Met Police IT second team apart) but I have managed IT teams of various sizes for over 25 years, mostly as a Project Manager.
On every project I managed, no matter how much padding I put in beforehand the timescales always got hacked back to the point where they became almost impossible. Almost. I've never missed a deadline yet. The motivational factors involved in getting a team of programmers and analysts to do their stuff are fairly complex, but probably at root not much different to a team of footballers (with the exception that most IT geeks aren''t multi-millionaires).
But if there was one single thing to being successful I think it's getting the team to believe in their manager and that what they've been set up to do is actually achievable. If you fail to do that you will fail most of the time. You can help that belief by planning well and reducing each member's role to something as simple, understandable and achievable as possible, but you have to sell the fact that the thing is doable.
What I believe I'm seeing out there is not players not trying, but players simply not understanding their roles in the bigger picture of team tactics and possibly not believing that what they're being asked to do is achievable. It's why there are so many teams relegated that were too good to go down.
At extremes, Holloway has his team believing and each success reinforces their belief. Of course, their ultimate lack of depth and quality may find them out but in the meantime... and and at the other extreme Mourinho has his teams working to a exacting but basically simple plan where every player knows his part (or he's out the door), and he's a damn good manager. But he now only has to walk through the door and the players believe, and half the job's done.
I know that's oversimplifying, but for me belief in the manager is biggest factor.
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So Dave the answer to your question, in my mind, is that our players have accepted their position, their rank in the pecking order and are just about comfortable with non achievement. The only way to address this is to remove them or install a new motivator.
But - and sorry to keep banging on about it - they have never in their lives before accepted their position. To get where they have, they've combined talent and application with the desire to keep improving.
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I don't think it's individual motivation vis a vis the players as individuals and what they still want to achieve in the game that's the central issue for us at present.
The personnel of most of the top sides in elite sport will generally be decent, that much is a given. The dividing line between success and failure in sport is so slight that a sense or aura, key changes or inspired decisions from a manager make all the difference.
As in any walk of life, if you have a manager or a leader of men who gets you to suspend your doubts for a second: "do this and it will work" - and then it does- you start to think actually this guy might know what he's on about.
Whether it's Pep Guardiola at Barcelona or even MON with his more limited approach to football.
When you have to listen to Gerard Houllier for any length of time -as a fan or as a player- you immediately have doubts. Those doubts become certainties when you see
*our style of play
*our defensive frailties
*our lack of goals and goal scoring chances
A few sides might be able to tolerate one of those. Only the most piss poor excuse driven outfit could attempt to justify all three.
He has to go.
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Good point Dave, it's something that I don't understand too. When after the work we play once a week in our five-a-side football team for nothing but our pride, we always want to win, we squabble for a penalty granted, for a handball, we get angry when we are substituted, so it's impossible to understand why don't do the same our players that earn (rectius: steal) million of pounds.
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When after the work we play once a week in our five-a-side football team for nothing but our pride, we always want to win, we squabble for a penalty granted, for a handball, we get angry when we are substituted
But you're Italian players, everyone knows you get more passionate and emotional than English players ;-)
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I remember far back in the mists of time when I was playing for my primary school team against the school that eventually took the title. We were five down, the rain was sheeting down, it was dark...I remember standing there in the middle of the pitch, screaming at my team-mates to give it one last effort, but their body language was awful. Every pass they made went awry, no shots were made, we were going through the motions. Basically, I learned that day that no matter how much effort one person makes, it means nothing if the rest of the team can't raise their game.
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perhaps when we have the chance to pick a fully match fit side consistently without the disenters. And play against sides more to our level things will turn in our favour.
Winning is all about belief and looking at our run there can be none. All this has been done under a new manager with new ideas and with an unsettled unfit squad.
i'm sure all the players gave their best what they didn't do was enough but sides in our position rarely do
I'm sure the same was true when we couldn't buy a win from Jan through March, was it motivation, tactics, then it certainly was not injuries.
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I think nowadays its because players have manipulative bastards (agents) feeding their ego's.
Loyalty is a thing of the past, its what a club can pay them what matters most.
IMO, for all the rhetoric spouted by players, there as never been such a chasm between most clubs and its supporters.
Playing for the love of the game are days gone by. Now it is for the love of money.
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So Dave the answer to your question, in my mind, is that our players have accepted their position, their rank in the pecking order and are just about comfortable with non achievement. The only way to address this is to remove them or install a new motivator.
But - and sorry to keep banging on about it - they have never in their lives before accepted their position. To get where they have, they've combined talent and application with the desire to keep improving.
Well that's it. Up to this point they were "it". Achieving, winning, succeeding untill they got to the summit -1 camp looked up at the west ridge had a go slipped and fell and said no thank you we can not get to the summit . That is for "special" people.
The secret is how do we make them still belive and feel special without actually getting to the top by winning something?
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Players have to be happy. If they have a boss they don't like, or are being asked to do things they're not comfortable with, or don't agree with, then their game will suffer because the attitude isn't right. Then there's the ambition shown by the club. If it looks like we're setting our stall out not to compete, not to push for the Champions League by not buying the top players or paying the top wages, then it affects the mindset of the players. They think we'll be happy to settle for mediocrity, that we've given up. If players feel that their working environment is not geared for success, then they will not expect to succeed, and they will also feel that success is not expected of them. If the club shows a lack of direction, then the same lack of direction will manifest itself on the pitch. Put it all together and you've got a recipe for failure.
That's a cracking post.
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Today was pretty much a first choice 11 and we were embarrassing and appalling in equal measures.
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If the club and players are a reflection of the fans who post here then God help us. We were in a state four months ago and it was only going to get better.
Someone has to take control and be leader of the pack..ferking Houllier out now is madness..then that is where we are presently. Someone must keep their head..
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MON was very good at this, I know he had his faults but he always (well nearly) got 100% out of the players.
Yeah, apart from Luke Young, Nicky Shorey, Habib Beye, Steve Sidwell, Curtis Davies, Marlon Harewood, Shaun Maloney, and Nigel Reo-Coker.
Perhaps part of the motivation lay in how he treated the unmotivated. A bit like the 'bitch' in the McKenzie Crook episode of 'Accused'.
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MON was very good at this, I know he had his faults but he always (well nearly) got 100% out of the players.
Yeah, apart from Luke Young, Nicky Shorey, Habib Beye, Steve Sidwell, Curtis Davies, Marlon Harewood, Shaun Maloney, and Nigel Reo-Coker.
Perhaps part of the motivation lay in how he treated the unmotivated. A bit like the 'bitch' in the McKenzie Crook episode of 'Accused'.
Maybe you're right.
It still doesn't mean he got anything like 100 percent motivation from all the players as originally suggested, mind.
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I personally feel they have (at the Villa now) forgotten how to win. They have no belief. This negativity in their mind rubs through to their body language and to us it just looks like they don't give a shit.
I really believe the management can and should be doing their utmost to change this, sadly I don't thing GH and co can.
MON was very good at this, I know he had his faults but he always (well nearly) got 100% out of the players.
they won a few games ago??
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I don't know how players who were pushing for champions league for the the last 3 seasons have become so bad. Mons leaving and the injuries upset the continuity but to enough to make us relegation material??
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simple answer. they know they haven't got a future with the current boss. they know they won't get the same wages elsewhere so they don't particulary want to move. they'd rather get a shot with a new boss who like the current one will have limited room to manouvre. Managers get sacked, not players
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MON was very good at this, I know he had his faults but he always (well nearly) got 100% out of the players.
Yeah, apart from Luke Young, Nicky Shorey, Habib Beye, Steve Sidwell, Curtis Davies, Marlon Harewood, Shaun Maloney, and Nigel Reo-Coker.
Perhaps part of the motivation lay in how he treated the unmotivated. A bit like the 'bitch' in the McKenzie Crook episode of 'Accused'.
Maybe you're right.
It still doesn't mean he got anything like 100 percent motivation from all the players as originally suggested, mind.
Fair point. I was hoping (and optimistic) that Houllier would keep MON's favourites onside, and re-motivate the others. Never mind.
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We want players who have hunger. Hungry to win every game, ambitious to win trophies, and to get the best out of their careers.
Then when their inbuilt desire for success leads them to move on in search of better things we slate them for being a greedy bastard, assuming the only possible reason they could want to leave the Villa is for the money.
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MON was very good at this, I know he had his faults but he always (well nearly) got 100% out of the players.
Yeah, apart from Luke Young, Nicky Shorey, Habib Beye, Steve Sidwell, Curtis Davies, Marlon Harewood, Shaun Maloney, and Nigel Reo-Coker.
I think you're wrong Paulie, when they were in the team he did get the best out of them. The real issue was whether their best was good enough.
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To go back to the original point, why do players who have spent their entire lives being self-motivated and single-minded to the point of obsession suddenly lose this desire? Is it all just about money?
Maybe rather than losing desire, it's the loss of confidence and how frail it can become when under pressure to perform at the highest level that has a big effect. Playing to 10 men and a dog with no media spotlight for years doesn't prepare you for everything. Obviously they are amply rewarded for whatever perceived disadvantages they encounter as top-flight players but I imagine self-doubt can affect most minds.
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MON was very good at this, I know he had his faults but he always (well nearly) got 100% out of the players.
Yeah, apart from Luke Young, Nicky Shorey, Habib Beye, Steve Sidwell, Curtis Davies, Marlon Harewood, Shaun Maloney, and Nigel Reo-Coker.
I think you're wrong Paulie, when they were in the team he did get the best out of them. The real issue was whether their best was good enough.
I said always (nearly) got 100% out of his team. Ok always was a bit strong and we was not always the best but what I'm trying to say is now we have lost or way. We don't know how to win, we have no spirit at all.
With MON we quite often clawed our way back, there was a spirit in the team.
I'm not for one minute saying he is the messiah but we really need someone here to give us that belief, spirit and organisation back. We look so defeated.
Going back to Dave's original point I still stand by this, that when your confidence is shot it shows in your body language it looks like you don't care. I don't think the money issue helps but the real problem is self belief, not only individually but as a whole team.
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In this instance I don't think money comes into it.
I just don't think they want to play for houllier, Player power is coming into force I think in order to make the chairman react
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I see the point you are making Dave but I think it is the socio-sporting equivalent of Darwinism namely the laws of natural selection.
Picture one of those huge tall palm trees in California. They soar up to the sky but only have a small number of palm leaves at the very top. When that palm began growing it was a huge great ground level mass of foliage which shrank as the tree grew.
So it is with football players at our level. There is a man in the village where I live working as a yard man in a builders merchants. He once wore the number 9 shirt of Newcastle United and still holds the goal scoring record in a season for Wrexham. They reach a level where they cannot hack it and fall away.
There are at least six players in the current Villa squad who do not have the mental strength and self discipline to take it to the next level. The pull of the night clubs the titty bars the pie shops and the knocking shops outweighs their ambition to play the game at the very highest level of their talents. Players like Ryan Giggs have the mental and physical strength to achieve the football and economic summit. Richard Dunne looks at his bank statement and sees a golden future of pie eating.
What I am saying is that right up to being in the squad of a club which finishes sixth in the hardest league in the world the elimination process continues. There is always Scotland or Turkey or the middle east for drop outs to run to we we know and they know it is all downhill for them from there.
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I secret is very simple, you get some big ugly terrifying bastard who doesn't neccessarily have to be a great player but is willing to die for the cause and make him Captain. We are a team of gentlemen on the pitch and a bunch of whinging noncies off. They need the said Captain to get them alone and explain the meaning of trial and retribution.
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Patrick Vieira would do that job perfectly
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I secret is very simple, you get some big ugly terrifying bastard who doesn't neccessarily have to be a great player but is willing to die for the cause and make him Captain. We are a team of gentlemen on the pitch and a bunch of whinging noncies off. They need the said Captain to get them alone and explain the meaning of trial and retribution.
I agree with this 100%. When did we last have a "demanding" captain?
Southgate wasn't, nor was Barry and I don't think Petrov is. Laursen probably not quite so nice as these but not a b*****d.
But it is not only the captain, we just do not have people in our team who will give their last ounce to win a tackle; be first to the ball etc. We have always been too nice.
I don't like saying it but what we need is two or three Joey Bartons in the team (now goes and washes mouth out). People like that who despise losing. The Keanes, Vieras, Terry, Carragher of this world.
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MON was very good at this, I know he had his faults but he always (well nearly) got 100% out of the players.
Yeah, apart from Luke Young, Nicky Shorey, Habib Beye, Steve Sidwell, Curtis Davies, Marlon Harewood, Shaun Maloney, and Nigel Reo-Coker.
Perhaps part of the motivation lay in how he treated the unmotivated. A bit like the 'bitch' in the McKenzie Crook episode of 'Accused'.
Maybe you're right.
It still doesn't mean he got anything like 100 percent motivation from all the players as originally suggested, mind.
Fair point. I was hoping (and optimistic) that Houllier would keep MON's favourites onside, and re-motivate the others. Never mind.
I think the problem is that Houllier might be using the same approach - favourites and non favourites - with the difference that none of them like him back.
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I think the problem is that Houllier might be using the same approach - favourites and non favourites - with the difference that none of them like him back.
I think the problem is that Houllier has no time for players without 100% focus (whether they have a valid reason or not), and when he doesn't like a player, there is no way back. As a result, we have to play too many youngsters at the same time. Their confidence is more fragile, and their performances are more inconsistent, and at the moment we are in a catch 22 where low confidence feeds poor performances, and vice versa.
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To comment on Dave's thread,
I think part of it is down to risk and reward
When the players are young and trying to get contracts at big clubs the risks in the way they play may be high [injury, bad reputation etc...] but the possible rewards are massive [money, money, money]
Now when they make it to the likes of the Villa the only possible reward is winning things, so the risk and rewards structure is destroyed.
Players have the rewards whether they take the risk or not, and what happens if they play shit and loose?
FUCK ALL, they still get their £XX,XXX per week
And if they do play well and rise above everyone else? WE SELL THEM [usually to Manure or now Citah]
We have become a second rate feeder club for the top 4/6, we know it, the players know it, the owners know it.
So you ask why they don't bother? they answer is because they dont have to
Mark
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I had a similar debate with a couple of Wolves fans yesterday who find themselves in a similar position. Our conclusion is there's no incentive any more. You can be a Warnock, or a Steve Flectcher, get GBP30-50K a week win, lose or draw. The players are holding the power, whereas in the day of my debating partners players scraped GBP100 a week & all the cash was made by your Ken Wheldon-esque chairmen.
Comparing this with our cricket team who I believe have a genuine, collective aspiration to be the best in the world, you just can't see that from any football team, in my opinion.
Villa's problems maybe stem back before MON - the heady days of JG & the signings of your Wastons & Stones showed that success bought with cash quickly & without method is exceedingly short term.
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I am furious at those players who clearly don't give a shit, but equally I feel sorry for those who are trying and look crestfallen.
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Whilst I agree on the incentive side and modern footballers not giving a sh**, it does not explain why Blackpool are out there every week doing all the things that our lot are not. Yes they are paid less, but they are still going to be multi-millionaires.
I feel deeply sorry for the fans right now and if I still was in the UK and had my season ticket I would be feeling sick to the stomach given the non-performances of our stars. It is utterly inexcusable to perform like this given what they only a few ago were capable of.
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Fans and the media get too carried away about whether a particular team is committed or not. As soon as a team is losing its as if many of those players are not trying and not caring. Similarly a winning team is viewed as all the individuals being something special with spirit, commitment to the cause, focus, etc.
You can have entire league of highly committed players, or a load of teams with a half hearted attutude. They can all be receiving obscene quantities of money, or amateurs receiving nothing. One thing remains constant with all league tables, the games won column always adds up to the same figure as the games lost column.
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[quote author=Grande Pablo
Villa's problems maybe stem back before MON
I totally agree - all those seasons of promise followed by decline, all those players who fall away when given a long contract, all those ex-Liverpool has-beens etc etc... MON staved off the situation we are now in but all he did was hide the festering sore of mediocrity that has become my beloved Villa - this is just what would have happened the season after DOL's removal.
Don't think it will matter if we sack Houllier or not, we will probably escape relegation bevause of the awfulness of other teams. My hope is we hang onto the kids.
The problem is I think the players know all this and there is an inevitability to their performances now. The stats from the Spuds game showed 10 shots on target but only one went in; that's about ability.
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To go back to the original point, why do players who have spent their entire lives being self-motivated and single-minded to the point of obsession suddenly lose this desire? Is it all just about money?
Maybe rather than losing desire, it's the loss of confidence and how frail it can become when under pressure to perform at the highest level that has a big effect. Playing to 10 men and a dog with no media spotlight for years doesn't prepare you for everything. Obviously they are amply rewarded for whatever perceived disadvantages they encounter as top-flight players but I imagine self-doubt can affect most minds.
That's my take on it too. A player lacking in confidence will look unmotivated because he's scared shitless of making a mistake. It is also self perpetuating.
This is where the coaching staff and the senior players come in. It's time for them to take responibility.
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To go back to the original point, why do players who have spent their entire lives being self-motivated and single-minded to the point of obsession suddenly lose this desire? Is it all just about money?
Yes it's all about money, the Ashley Cole situation at Arsenal summed it up when he was upset they were only offering him £55K a week, the club he'd supported as a boy weren't prepared to offer him £60K a week and he was upset about it. There is no moptivation factor when you're being paid this much money, you have more money than you can shake a stick at, the extra money at this point is purely to find more ways to waste it, you don't need it, but once you're being paid these sums, you don't have to try, you don't have to listen to the boss.
Remember Sasa Curcic? He came to Villa, played a blinder on his debut, looked a top quality player and within no time at all seemed more interested in getting a nose job.
The amount of money paid to players is counter productive, whereas at Blackpool, where the money simply isn't there, those players are busting a gut, some of them in the hope that they will get to a club that will pay them silly money, they have the motivation still.
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Never thought I would ever think it, let alone say it, but I think we need a couple of nasty b******s in the side.
I've been saying that for about three years. We're way too nice.
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i think its because players these days live on another planet and think they are bigge and better than anything ever...
footballers on the whole, are a disgusting breed...
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When after the work we play once a week in our five-a-side football team for nothing but our pride, we always want to win, we squabble for a penalty granted, for a handball, we get angry when we are substituted
But you're Italian players, everyone knows you get more passionate and emotional than English players ;-)
The other thing Italian players have to content with is that if they put in a performance like ours did yesterday, then there stands a good chance of the fans turning up at the training ground and setting fire to their Ferraris.
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Until performance related pay gets brought in,it's always gonna be the same,and that's not just at Villa but at all clubs. There is no emotional attachment to clubs anymore,unless you're a young layer who has come through the ranks. Players have the role of whores,with agents as pimps,and clubs as clients...not that i'm an expert in that field!
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It still doesn't mean he got anything like 100 percent motivation from all the players as originally suggested, mind.
I think MON got 100% from the players that were playing.
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Until performance related pay gets brought in,it's always gonna be the same,and that's not just at Villa but at all clubs. There is no emotional attachment to clubs anymore,unless you're a young layer who has come through the ranks. Players have the role of whores,with agents as pimps,and clubs as clients...not that i'm an expert in that field!
No, the clubs are merely the bordellos at which the players fuck the fans.
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To go back to the original point, why do players who have spent their entire lives being self-motivated and single-minded to the point of obsession suddenly lose this desire? Is it all just about money?
Maybe rather than losing desire, it's the loss of confidence and how frail it can become when under pressure to perform at the highest level that has a big effect. Playing to 10 men and a dog with no media spotlight for years doesn't prepare you for everything. Obviously they are amply rewarded for whatever perceived disadvantages they encounter as top-flight players but I imagine self-doubt can affect most minds.
That's my take on it too. A player lacking in confidence will look unmotivated because he's scared shitless of making a mistake. It is also self perpetuating.
This is where the coaching staff and the senior players come in. It's time for them to take responibility.
Yeah I agree with this comment If we look at our national game currently I believe its very similar to the Villa set up and for me its all down to the Manager and coaching.
Capello like Houllier seems to rule with an iron fist and while we all think thats what these overpaid stars actually need for the majority it doesnt seem to translate on the pitch.
What we get is talented players like Rooney who look like they have never kicked a ball and dont seem to care, but like what has been said is basically the players have no confidence.
Say what you like about managers like Harry and MON but they seem to be able to get into the players mind which I believe is a huge percentage of coaching these days they are able to balance a bit of discipline but mainly motivation.
For me Harry should be the England Manager because of this, all the England players need is someone to tap into their fragile minds to get belief and confidence back so we can get back to playing like a team.
I think the French also suffered the same in the world cup under Domenech and didnt we see the difference under Blanc within a couple of games.
Going back to ourselves we have that same problem and while certain players respond to this kind of management IE Heskey the majority do not. You cant imagine for example Houllier putting his arm around any of our players never mind doing that and telling them how special their are!
And while many of you will say they get bloody paid millions to play well, I agree but the days of being given a bollocking seem to have disappeared with all this money that is paid, Fergie realised it too and adapted it seems they all need to feel wanted and told how good they are and the Managers that make that connection are the ones that succeed these days
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Until performance related pay gets brought in,it's always gonna be the same,and that's not just at Villa but at all clubs. There is no emotional attachment to clubs anymore,unless you're a young layer who has come through the ranks. Players have the role of whores,with agents as pimps,and clubs as clients...not that i'm an expert in that field!
No, the clubs are merely the bordellos at which the players fuck the fans.
Yep youre right,the fans dont even get a hand job out of if though.
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It's not exclusively about Villa, or Houllier, but it's something I honestly don't get.
Players such as most of ours have been playing football seriously almost since they could walk. At every stage they've been the best of their contemporaries, but also the keenest, the hardest-working and the most dedicated. If they hadn't been, they wouldn't have got this far.
They'll have played for dozens of managers and coaches, not got on with some, and a few will have been nowhere near the level their ability required. Yet they would have had to play their hearts out for every one, otherwise they'd never have got to the next level.
So why is it that having got this far, they quite clearly decide they don't want to perform to anywhere near their best, whether that's because they don't get on with the manager, or for some other reason? Not just at Villa, but so often elsewhere as well.
I dont think its a matter of deciding not to bother their arse anymore. I think players really deep down have zero attachment to their football clubs anymore. Players are only human after all, people leave jobs all the time for more money, status, greater recognition etc footballers are no different. When we were chasing Champions League places and Cup finals everyone was bursting their arse to do their best now as we head towards the Championship a lot of players look for an excuse and a way out. Its sad but its the reality of the situation.
Self belief as a sportsman is like smack for a junkie. Look at Gareth Bale a year ago to now. It is obvious that the self belief at Villa is on the floor. Players also like to be sure of their roles, to be honest ever since the first game of the season where no midfielder bothered to defend it has been clear that noone is sure what is expected of him when he puts on a Villa shirt. Add in a load of players close to the 30 mark looking for one last contract, agents no doubt stoking up moves behind the scenes, a board in cost cutting mode and a manager completely out of his depth and you have the perfect storm.
What I find incredible about modern footballers is how many of them dont strive to be the best they can be. Take Stephen Ireland, a special case no doubt, but over a year ago he was on about spending all summer doing kung fu and running up hills to improve as a footballer. It was all going great for him, suddenly Mancini leaves him out for a few games and he is all about needed to consider his career at City instead of bursting his balls to impress. Gets booted out of there the summer and you would think coming to Villa he would have a point to prove. Yet from the moment he has arrived it is like we arent good enough for him. He hasnt tried a leg and seems content to head to Stoke or Celtic or some other place rather than push on at Villa. Another James Milner was developing into a fine centre midfielder at Villa. Ive watched him at City this season and he is back to beinga leggy one paced wideman. So what if he earns double his money surely being the best footballer you can be should count for something. Evidently not for modern day players.
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its fairly obvious that the motivation of the players at villa is down to the manager at the minute... Dunne isnt a bad player... Carew when bothered isnt a bad striker..... But under the H man. they dont want to play for him.
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its fairly obvious that the motivation of the players at villa is down to the manager at the minute... Dunne isnt a bad player... Carew when bothered isnt a bad striker..... But under the H man. they dont want to play for him.
Dunne isn't a bad player, but he's a dreadful professional - the size of him after the summer break attested to that. That is just not acceptable.
Carew when bothered isn't a bad striker - no, but the "when bothered" thing says it all. He's a professional footballer, he's supposed to be bothered all the time - at least the very minimum that requires him not to take an extra few days holiday when he fancies it, or to cry off matches sick when he can't be arsed.
They might not be bad players, but with that lack of professionalism, they may as well have one leg for all the use they are to us.
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Gavin McCann played on one leg, look where that nearly got us.
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Quite simply players get to a certain level and think they have made it, that's it. You are pretty well guaranteed a sizeable wage packet each week and when you get a manager in who doesn't display any passion, upsets certain individuals without giving them a chance as soon as he walks through the door, insists on twice daily sergeant major style training drills, then the apathy of individuals just grows as does a manifestation of hate for the individual trying to lead them. It provides a growing excuse culture, as well as one of blame. And all those ego's in one room providing those cultures leads to a piss poor situation on the field of play. I believe he has a pretty divided dressing room at the moment and the ethos of success is based on everyone pulling in one direction. This is not happening. In my view, there has been too much change in too short a period of time and it isn't reaping any rewards. One has to remember that prior to Houllier's arrival, we did have a largely winning formula. I don't buy this everyone hated MO'N crap, I believe they perhaps wouldn't choose to go out to dinner with him, but at the end of the day feared and respected him and would run through walls for him. Look at Houlliers body language compared to that.
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I think it's a combionation of factors, the main ones being:
- teams get into the habit of winning or losing. at the moment we couldn't buy a win; we're in the slough of a large losing run.
- GH is, I think, trying to change the game-play in some way and the players - and particularly the defenders - don't get it or don't trust it.
- the senior players are not showing any leadership.
I also agree that the current remuneration structure for footballers seems counter-productive in terms of motivation and focus.
We're a bad place!
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This happens in lots of eniorenments where you have teams and competition, its certainly common in business situations when there is a change at the top, the worst in human nature surfaces, the team ethic goes out the window. Instead you get fear, self promotion, back stabbing a breakdown in trust of the leaders and piers. Then factions start to develop. If this has happened here we are in deep shit. It takes a lot of skill and ruthless determination to get through this.
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Good question dave, and one thing that always intrigues me, is what if the players have their way and get the manager the sack?
Would we be in a better position if Dunne, Warnock et al get their way and GH gets the sack? For me the answer is no, and i think thats why we need GH to at least bring his own players in.There are a lot of things that worry me about GH, but sacking him because players like Ireland, Carew want him gone would be very detremental to our club.
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I think it's deliberate - the manager pisses them off so they play so badly that the board have no choice but to replace the manager. It might even be an unspoken thing. I think some of our players don't want to play for Houllier but I think there might be more who just don't want to play for the club.
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I watch more rugby than football now. When the 80 minutes are up, if the attacking side is camped on the opposition line then, even if a converted try will make no difference to the result, both teams will play on for as long as it takes to score a try/clear the ball. Bear in mind this means crunching tackles with 15/16 stone blokes smashing into you (poor old Didier would be down and out) for no reason other than pride. They might as well just put the ball out and stop the game, but they don't. What footballer would risk serious injury for a consolation goal? And another thing. When a player gets injured, they treat him on the pitch with play continuing. Footballers are overpaid, narcissistic pansies. What's more the league is now just a question of who has the most money. City, Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal living off past glories dominating the whole show, bollocks to that, give me rugby with it's wage cap.
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I also don't understand how can players such as Ireland, Carew, Dunne and the rest not look interested i know the money play's a big part but why do they have to act like this and walk around as if they are better than they think they are i think we need someone who can motivate them and get 110% out of them and get there hunger back.