Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Eigentor on December 21, 2010, 10:14:40 AM
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I could probably be considered a Houllier supporter, but at times it seems as if he could be more diplomatic. Sometimes his quotes gives an impression that he is fed up with the attitude of some of his players. From the Daily Mail:
"We are changing things here. People whinge and moan but they have a fantastic job.
"They are paid high wages to play and enjoy football. They will have three days off this week because we have a hectic schedule over Christmas and the New Year. But sometimes they forget all of that.
"OK, they've got talent. They are at a good club. They are paid to play and enjoy their football. So, what's wrong?"
More specifically about Ireland from Goal.com:
"He won't be playing in Ashley's position. I've done that before and it didn't work," said Houllier, according to The Sun.
"So I'm not stupid, I'm not doing it again."
Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but it's almost as if he's so unimpressed by Ireland's attitude that he doesn't see much point in ever playing him again.
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Every single football fan agrees with that first quote, the second one is clearly because he doesn't like Ireland.
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I don't think he is fed up. I think he is getting fired up. I think he has found the job harder than he thought, especially coming from a cushy role at the FFF.
He is now returning to the driven, egotistical man he was during his time at Liverpool. This is a good thing every good manager has an ego!
This needed to happen for him to be successful IMO.
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Someone had to go and mention the 'L' word.
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I agree with him.
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Someone had to go and mention the 'L' word.
Who said Lesbians?
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i get the impression he is desperately wanting certain players out, so he can bring in his own... if players that may not have been sold under different circumstances want out, as proven with barry and milner, we wont keep them... and then they need replacing and houllier can put his own stamp on the club even quicker...
its clever, in a way, as he is forcing the club to back him financially, possibly quicker than first anticipated...
and tbh, if players dont want to work, because they liked the cushy easy time under o'neill, then screw them...
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I think he's just decided that he needs to be seen to be asserting his authority. There has been a lot of negative publicity out of VP in the last few weeks and I think he is responding to that.
A more interesting question is why is there so much bad publicity and where is it coming from?
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When he was at Liverpool ( there, I've said it) there was quite a bit of unrest at the way Houllier "spoke" to his players via the press.
Just my opinion, but some things are better kept in house than aired in public .
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i have read elsewhere that some of the negative publicity comes from a previous villa player who is a little bitter about not getting a job recently..
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I think he's just decided that he needs to be seen to be asserting his authority. There has been a lot of negative publicity out of VP in the last few weeks and I think he is responding to that.
I agree, that's what he's doing. But it's a fine line - does he pretend everything's great and have these bust-up leaks springing up all over the place or does he come out in the open on the offensive (like he seems to be doing) and stop the impact of the leaks?
It's his call and he'll be judged unmercifully on his results if this gets a bad reaction from players, but it feels very uncomfortable and confrontational to do it this way.
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He needs time, and the state of play and the number of injurie is heaping pressure on him.
Let's see where the January window takes us (with Sidwell and Ireland almost certainly out - even if on loan) and the return of the injured during the next month and then take a view.
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I think he's warming to the task. He's probably now identified the players he doesn't want to work with, and next month he'll start bringing in one or two that he does; in January his reign in charge truly starts as he'll start to build the team he wants.
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He needs time, and the state of play and the number of injurie is heaping pressure on him.
Let's see where the January window takes us (with Sidwell and Ireland almost certainly out - even if on loan) and the return of the injured during the next month and then take a view.
Although I agree with that, we do also need results for two reasons:-
1. To stay the the PL.
2. The lower we are/finish the harder it will become to attract players.
He's changing the playing style, but maybe ne needs to arrest that slightly to get some points on the board and then revisit it once he's got some of his own players in?
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i have read elsewhere that some of the negative publicity comes from a previous villa player who is a little bitter about not getting a job recently..
I was told that from a mate also. Was it a certain former Left Back?
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yep...
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Houlier doesnt like players who are going to be a bad influence on young players.... Goodbye to Ireland then and Carew...
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He needs time, and the state of play and the number of injurie is heaping pressure on him.
Let's see where the January window takes us (with Sidwell and Ireland almost certainly out - even if on loan) and the return of the injured during the next month and then take a view.
Although I agree with that, we do also need results for two reasons:-
1. To stay the the PL.
2. The lower we are/finish the harder it will become to attract players.
He's changing the playing style, but maybe ne needs to arrest that slightly to get some points on the board and then revisit it once he's got some of his own players in?
I don't think it matters to a potential player if you finish 5th or 15th. Champions League, History, Manager are what attracts players.....oh and money of course. We have 2 out of 3. We can attract good players just not the very good ones who want CL.
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I don't think it matters to a potential player if you finish 5th or 15th. Champions League, History, Manager are what attracts players.....oh and money of course. We have 2 out of 3. We can attract good players just not the very good ones who want CL.
You're right in that money will overule any other consideration for a player, but if we're trying to get a better handle on the wages is now the right time to be pushing the boat out? If we finish say 12th and offer the same terms as whoever finishes 5th, we might struggle to get the player.
I think we have an image problem in attracting top players anyway, but a bottom half finish isn't goinf to help that.
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Champions League, History, Manager are what attracts players.....oh and money of course. We have 2 out of 3.
Our four main weapons are Champions League, History, Manager and money. Cardinal, The Rack!
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I don't think it matters to a potential player if you finish 5th or 15th. Champions League, History, Manager are what attracts players.....oh and money of course. We have 2 out of 3. We can attract good players just not the very good ones who want CL.
You're right in that money will overule any other consideration for a player, but if we're trying to get a better handle on the wages is now the right time to be pushing the boat out? If we finish say 12th and offer the same terms as whoever finishes 5th, we might struggle to get the player.
I think we have an image problem in attracting top players anyway, but a bottom half finish isn't goinf to help that.
I agree top players are out of our reach but if we went for good players with a large potential to improve and high intangibles then I would think we can afford more and appeal more to a player than Everton, Stoke, Bolton, Sunderland etc. I honestly think as long as we are not below 14th or 15th then it will not matter. Would a player really choose Bolton ahead of us because they finished 8th this year (as a one off) and we were 14th?
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Champions League, History, Manager are what attracts players.....oh and money of course. We have 2 out of 3.
Our four main weapons are Champions League, History, Manager and money. Cardinal, The Rack!
Haha. I meant to say that outside of Champions League calibre players we can go toe to toe with anyone for a player maybe with the exception of Liverpool & Man City and the top 4.
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If we're honest we've never signed a top-line player, even if we could afford them. I think the club's philosophy now is Stars of Tomorrow. It may not be glamorous, but it's a lot more realistic than demanding big names.
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If we're honest we've never signed a top-line player, even if we could afford them. I think the club's philosophy now is Stars of Tomorrow. It may not be glamorous, but it's a lot more realistic than demanding big names.
I agree. Anyway top players always seem to disappoint IMO. Also which clubs do sign top players outside of United, Chelsea & Real Madrid?
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we have tweeked our scouting system so should be able to find some nuggets abroad (and not those from the Blackburn owners) buying british is good but their wages are very high for mediocra players. look at some of the players Albion have signed and others like Palacios and Valencia who were bought cheaply and sold on for a profit. No that doesnt mean we are a selling club, even Manu sell players.
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If we're honest we've never signed a top-line player, even if we could afford them. I think the club's philosophy now is Stars of Tomorrow. It may not be glamorous, but it's a lot more realistic than demanding big names.
It's a good philosophy.
But if you take James Milner as an example, we signed him after finishing 6th - would he have come if we had finished 14th?
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If we're honest we've never signed a top-line player, even if we could afford them. I think the club's philosophy now is Stars of Tomorrow. It may not be glamorous, but it's a lot more realistic than demanding big names.
It's a good philosophy.
But if you take James Milner as an example, we signed him after finishing 6th - would he have come if we had finished 14th?
Yes. He was getting fed up at Newcastle. They had already cancelled the deal once. He wanted to play for the manager and the club.
Also was it O'Neills first season when the deal was cancelled. We were 16th that season before that summer were we not?
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Hmmm. I can think of several examples of Villa signing what I'd consider to be a 'top' player and then said player disappointing me tremendously. If I'm honest, Curcic, Collymore and Ireland all really excited me and all three turned out fairly disastrously. Even JPA, to a lesser extent; decent for a couple of seasons but costing almost £10m ten years ago....
So I'm perfectly happy if we give 'big names' a wide berth and go looking for younger, hungrier, footballers that we can retain and develop for the next 5-6 years.
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If we're honest we've never signed a top-line player, even if we could afford them. I think the club's philosophy now is Stars of Tomorrow. It may not be glamorous, but it's a lot more realistic than demanding big names.
It's a good philosophy.
But if you take James Milner as an example, we signed him after finishing 6th - would he have come if we had finished 14th?
Yes. He was getting fed up at Newcastle. They had already cancelled the deal once. He wanted to play for the manager and the club.
Also was it O'Neills first season when the deal was cancelled. We were 16th that season before that summer were we not?
Yes, that did happen, but I think the James Milner of summer 2006 was a lot different to the one of summer 2008 when we eventually got him. In 2006 he'd just spent the season on loan with us and the deal was (I think) for £4m. Two years later he's a first team regular at Newcastle and they're looking for £12m for him.
I'm not saying it makes a big difference, but I do think it has some bearing if two clubs make comparable offers and one has finished significantly higher in the league.
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If we're honest we've never signed a top-line player, even if we could afford them. I think the club's philosophy now is Stars of Tomorrow. It may not be glamorous, but it's a lot more realistic than demanding big names.
and for me, that is the best way to go...
man citys best players, apart from tevez, are de jong and kompany (that is the opinion of a long standing man city fan whos opinion i trust), and those signings were questions compared to robinho, etc...
so for us to do something similar, i will be happy with... even if they leave, we still get lots of money for them when they leave to spend on the next batch... its not like we can keep hold of our current "stars"...
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If we're honest we've never signed a top-line player, even if we could afford them. I think the club's philosophy now is Stars of Tomorrow. It may not be glamorous, but it's a lot more realistic than demanding big names.
It's a good philosophy.
But if you take James Milner as an example, we signed him after finishing 6th - would he have come if we had finished 14th?
Yes. He was getting fed up at Newcastle. They had already cancelled the deal once. He wanted to play for the manager and the club.
Also was it O'Neills first season when the deal was cancelled. We were 16th that season before that summer were we not?
Yes, that did happen, but I think the James Milner of summer 2006 was a lot different to the one of summer 2008 when we eventually got him. In 2006 he'd just spent the season on loan with us and the deal was (I think) for £4m. Two years later he's a first team regular at Newcastle and they're looking for £12m for him.
I'm not saying it makes a big difference, but I do think it has some bearing if two clubs make comparable offers and one has finished significantly higher in the league.
I see what you are saying but firstly I am not sure how much better Milner was from 2006 to 2008. He was poor for us on the right wing for a good season. It also depends how early you buy young players. I am just not sure it matters to a player whether a team is in the Europa League or not. As long as we are above 15th and not fighting relegation ( as a one off season), I think the Club will sell itself well....in addition to the wages.
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If we're honest we've never signed a top-line player, even if we could afford them. I think the club's philosophy now is Stars of Tomorrow. It may not be glamorous, but it's a lot more realistic than demanding big names.
I agree. Anyway top players always seem to disappoint IMO. Also which clubs do sign top players outside of United, Chelsea & Real Madrid?
Spurs seem the obvious team outside the Top 4. From Ardilles and Villa in 78, to Gazza, Ginola, Kilinsmann, Sheringham, Keane, Ferdinand, all top players at the time.
We on the other hand have never really entered that market.
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If we're honest we've never signed a top-line player, even if we could afford them. I think the club's philosophy now is Stars of Tomorrow. It may not be glamorous, but it's a lot more realistic than demanding big names.
I agree. Anyway top players always seem to disappoint IMO. Also which clubs do sign top players outside of United, Chelsea & Real Madrid?
Spurs seem the obvious team outside the Top 4. From Ardilles and Villa in 78, to Gazza, Ginola, Kilinsmann, Sheringham, Keane, Ferdinand, all top players at the time.
We on the other hand have never really entered that market.
Sorry I should have said recently. I disagree on Ginola, Sheringham, Keane & Ferdinand. But it is all opinion on what is a top player.
Interesting that it did not get them very far....They now sign generally youngish players with potential. Bale, Defoe, Modric, Dawson, Lennon, Huddlestone etc and they break the top 4
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Interesting that it did not get them very far....They now sign generally youngish players with potential. Bale, Defoe, Dawson, Lennon, Huddlestone etc and they break the top 4
They signed the likes of Klinsmann and Ginole when they were past their prime.
What's interesting about their approach with the younger players is that they kept it despite changes in manager. Ramos did seem to move away from it, so he went and Harry bought the players back, such as Defoe. Does this show they were wrong to replace Jol when they did?
Anyway, back to us - Gezza seems to buy into the youth policy so I think we'll keep going, just that from now on they'll be more exotic names than Milner, Young and Delph.
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The first quote is very Gregoryesque and a little dated to be honest, as he may be in terms of being a league manager. I may be being slightly disngenuous but he was with the French team that imploded amid a group of very unhappy players to a level not seen at that level before, especially at a major tournament. The major tournament. He's now come to Villa and we're seeing the same sort of rebellion from certain players if the stories are to be believed. Its all worrying and the vibe at Villa Park has gone from one of hope, expectation, to one of acerbic regression Its all very worrying.
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I may be being slightly disngenuous but he was with the French team that imploded amid a group of very unhappy players to a level not seen at that level before, especially at a major tournament. The major tournament.
He held the same position in the French FA when they won the World Cup in 1998.
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Mons gone Houllier has arrived and does it differently.
Players and some fans need to adjust.
I think he's too negative in the way he comes across but I'm told most Liverpool fans say that's his way.
Be it right or wrong I've no idea, but I'm sure it will take at least 9 months for his efforts to have a lasting effect
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He's in a difficult position in that it's widely accepted Villa have to trim the squad to make significant signings - perhaps the straw that broke the camel's back for O'Neill, who couldn't, or wouldn't, do that. So Houllier has inherited a squad with several senior players halfway out the door and inevitably, there are going to be some complaints from those players as they're moved on.
It might get worse before it gets better. I can see Steve Sidwell leaving and remaining fairly diplomatic but can only imagine what Carew might say...
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When he was at Liverpool ( there, I've said it) there was quite a bit of unrest at the way Houllier "spoke" to his players via the press.
Just my opinion, but some things are better kept in house than aired in public .
Couldn't agree more - we are in the press too much - and all thats reported is unrest, he seems to have rubbed everyone up the wrong way (inc us - apparently he had a Liverpool love in recently or something) and it can't be good for morale
Don't get me wrong i think MoN is a prized twat for what he did - but at least he kept things behind closed doors and the 11 players who played every week did seem to respond.
Footballers are like spoiled kids (even ours) so the manager telling the press that more or less he thinks they are whinging bastards - or just a plain cnut in Irelands case - can't be positive, and it shows on the pitch unfortunately.
Not one for knee jerk reactions (especially as we approach a window) - but if we were in a different point in the season I wouldn't be sorry to see GED sling his hook - sorry to say it but can't see Ged getting all misty eyed when he returns to Villa Park in years to come - don't think this will end well.....
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Champions League, History, Manager are what attracts players.....oh and money of course. We have 2 out of 3.
Our four main weapons are Champions League, History, Manager and money. Cardinal, The Rack!
Noooooobady expected the Champions league
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We should try get some of the young talent out in the world - many of them are really good already (Ganso from Santos to name one*). Or maybe rejuvinile careers, like Riquelme or the like.
*The rest Blacwell will name :)
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I may be being slightly disngenuous but he was with the French team that imploded amid a group of very unhappy players to a level not seen at that level before, especially at a major tournament. The major tournament. He's now come to Villa and we're seeing the same sort of rebellion from certain players if the stories are to be believed.
Let's be clear - he was director of football for France and no direct involvement with the players. That's like blaming Trevor Brooking for England being shite.
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If we're honest we've never signed a top-line player, even if we could afford them. I think the club's philosophy now is Stars of Tomorrow. It may not be glamorous, but it's a lot more realistic than demanding big names.
I agree. Anyway top players always seem to disappoint IMO. Also which clubs do sign top players outside of United, Chelsea & Real Madrid?
Spurs seem the obvious team outside the Top 4. From Ardilles and Villa in 78, to Gazza, Ginola, Kilinsmann, Sheringham, Keane, Ferdinand, all top players at the time.
We on the other hand have never really entered that market.
Sorry I should have said recently. I disagree on Ginola, Sheringham, Keane & Ferdinand. But it is all opinion on what is a top player.
Interesting that it did not get them very far....
They did win a League Cup in 1999, if that counts but I guess it might have helped if they'd also invested in a defender or two to add to their attacking flair.
As for the above, Ginola whilst at Spurs won both the PFA Player of the Year Award and the Football Writers Player of the Year Award, so he couldn't have been that bad.
England international Sheringham scored 98 goals for Spurs.
Ferdinand was injured most of the time but when he did play, made up a great partnership with Klinsmann. Signing a player that scored 50 goals in 84 games at Newcastle is the type of goalscorer I'd like to see us sign.
Robbie Keane - 80 goals in 197 matches for Spurs before he moved to Liverpool. I'd have liked some of that at the time too.
Somebody mentioned Klinsmann was past it when he signed for Spurs. Maybe they were thinking of the second time he joined them, on loan. In his first spell there he scored 21 goals in 41 matches, picking up the Football Writers Player of the Year Award. He then went on to play top football for another 3 years. Hardly what I'd call past it.
The nearest we got to signing a big name player was a wave from Juninho and a press report linking us with Hans Krankl.
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Somebody mentioned Klinsmann was past it when he signed for Spurs. Maybe they were thinking of the second time he joined them, on loan. In his first spell there he scored 21 goals in 41 matches, picking up the Football Writers Player of the Year Award. He then went on to play top football for another 3 years. Hardly what I'd call past it.
That was me. He signed in 1994 after the USA world cup when in his 30s. He looked after himself granted, but simply wasn't the player he had been.
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[quote author=Mark Kelly link=topic=41515.msg1651502#msg1651502 date=1292944847
They did win a League Cup in 1999, if that counts but I guess it might have helped if they'd also invested in a defender or two to add to their attacking flair.
As for the above, Ginola whilst at Spurs won both the PFA Player of the Year Award and the Football Writers Player of the Year Award, so he couldn't have been that bad.
England international Sheringham scored 98 goals for Spurs.
Ferdinand was injured most of the time but when he did play, made up a great partnership with Klinsmann. Signing a player that scored 50 goals in 84 games at Newcastle is the type of goalscorer I'd like to see us sign.
Robbie Keane - 80 goals in 197 matches for Spurs before he moved to Liverpool. I'd have liked some of that at the time too.
Somebody mentioned Klinsmann was past it when he signed for Spurs. Maybe they were thinking of the second time he joined them, on loan. In his first spell there he scored 21 goals in 41 matches, picking up the Football Writers Player of the Year Award. He then went on to play top football for another 3 years. Hardly what I'd call past it.
The nearest we got to signing a big name player was a wave from Juninho and a press report linking us with Hans Krankl.
[/quote]
Sorry I think you misunderstood me. I did not say that they good for Spurs. I just said in my opinion they were not TOP players. I will stress that is my opinion. Maldini, Baresi, Van Basten, Gullit, Ronaldo....those are/were top players on my scale. Some of the above players performed very well/ excellently for Spurs but they did not sign them as ready made/undeniable 'top players'.
We should be going after the types of players that Spurs are/were in the last couple of seasons, the likes of Modric, Bale, Lennon etc when they are young with vast potential to be successfull.
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Somebody mentioned Klinsmann was past it when he signed for Spurs. Maybe they were thinking of the second time he joined them, on loan. In his first spell there he scored 21 goals in 41 matches, picking up the Football Writers Player of the Year Award. He then went on to play top football for another 3 years. Hardly what I'd call past it.
That was me. He signed in 1994 after the USA world cup when in his 30s. He looked after himself granted, but simply wasn't the player he had been.
He was 29, turning 30 when he signed for Spurs. He was a World Cup winner (1990) and his record at Spurs and later at Bayern speaks for itself. There's no pleasing some people.
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TBF Klinsmann was a top player. One of my favourite ever strikers.
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They did win a League Cup in 1999, if that counts but I guess it might have helped if they'd also invested in a defender or two to add to their attacking flair.
As for the above, Ginola whilst at Spurs won both the PFA Player of the Year Award and the Football Writers Player of the Year Award, so he couldn't have been that bad.
England international Sheringham scored 98 goals for Spurs.
Ferdinand was injured most of the time but when he did play, made up a great partnership with Klinsmann. Signing a player that scored 50 goals in 84 games at Newcastle is the type of goalscorer I'd like to see us sign.
Robbie Keane - 80 goals in 197 matches for Spurs before he moved to Liverpool. I'd have liked some of that at the time too.
Somebody mentioned Klinsmann was past it when he signed for Spurs. Maybe they were thinking of the second time he joined them, on loan. In his first spell there he scored 21 goals in 41 matches, picking up the Football Writers Player of the Year Award. He then went on to play top football for another 3 years. Hardly what I'd call past it.
The nearest we got to signing a big name player was a wave from Juninho and a press report linking us with Hans Krankl.
Sorry I think you misunderstood me. I did not say that they good for Spurs. I just said in my opinion they were not TOP players. I will stress that is my opinion. Maldini, Baresi, Van Basten, Gullit, Ronaldo....those are/were top players on my scale. Some of the above players performed very well/ excellently for Spurs but they did not sign them as ready made/undeniable 'top players'.
We should be going after the types of players that Spurs are/were in the last couple of seasons, the likes of Modric, Bale, Lennon etc when they are young with vast potential to be successfull.
I hope you're not suggesting Lennon is a TOP player?
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They did win a League Cup in 1999, if that counts but I guess it might have helped if they'd also invested in a defender or two to add to their attacking flair.
As for the above, Ginola whilst at Spurs won both the PFA Player of the Year Award and the Football Writers Player of the Year Award, so he couldn't have been that bad.
England international Sheringham scored 98 goals for Spurs.
Ferdinand was injured most of the time but when he did play, made up a great partnership with Klinsmann. Signing a player that scored 50 goals in 84 games at Newcastle is the type of goalscorer I'd like to see us sign.
Robbie Keane - 80 goals in 197 matches for Spurs before he moved to Liverpool. I'd have liked some of that at the time too.
Somebody mentioned Klinsmann was past it when he signed for Spurs. Maybe they were thinking of the second time he joined them, on loan. In his first spell there he scored 21 goals in 41 matches, picking up the Football Writers Player of the Year Award. He then went on to play top football for another 3 years. Hardly what I'd call past it.
The nearest we got to signing a big name player was a wave from Juninho and a press report linking us with Hans Krankl.
Sorry I think you misunderstood me. I did not say that they good for Spurs. I just said in my opinion they were not TOP players. I will stress that is my opinion. Maldini, Baresi, Van Basten, Gullit, Ronaldo....those are/were top players on my scale. Some of the above players performed very well/ excellently for Spurs but they did not sign them as ready made/undeniable 'top players'.
We should be going after the types of players that Spurs are/were in the last couple of seasons, the likes of Modric, Bale, Lennon etc when they are young with vast potential to be successfull.
I hope you're not suggesting Lennon is a TOP player?
Not at all. But he is a good player who Spurs bought for peanuts (tribunal i think) and he has done well for them. What I am saying is in order for us to progress we need to stop thinking that we can buy top players. We have to buy young players, like Delph, who have fantastic potential who can progress us onto the next level and grow together as a team and have the chance to become very good players. Mix that with a couple of older heads and we can move forward.
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He was 29, turning 30 when he signed for Spurs. He was a World Cup winner (1990) and his record at Spurs and later at Bayern speaks for itself. There's no pleasing some people.
Not a matter of being pleased or not as they ain't my club, but Klinsmann was in the latter part of his career when he went there and had had his best days, which does not mean he still didn't have a lot to offer as the stats you quoted would suggest.
The PL simply did not pay enough to get a truely top world player at the height of his career in 1994.
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He was 29, turning 30 when he signed for Spurs. He was a World Cup winner (1990) and his record at Spurs and later at Bayern speaks for itself. There's no pleasing some people.
Not a matter of being pleased or not as they ain't my club, but Klinsmann was in the latter part of his career when he went there and had had his best days, which does not mean he still didn't have a lot to offer as the stats you quoted would suggest.
The PL simply did not pay enough to get a truely top world player at the height of his career in 1994.
And after Spurs, he played 2 years for Bayern scoring 48 goals and almost singlehanded won the Uefacup for them.
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So basically to summarise....we are all saying that we agree that we cannot sign a top player, but disagree on whether Spurs have signed a top player since the Premier League began.
Typical Spurs, ruining football since 1882!
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Whatever the merits of being a 'top player', what Spurs have done very well in recent seasons is sign the second tier type of player, talented and young and ready to move up a level. It's worked well for them: see Dawson, Huddlestone, Carrick, Lennon, Bale, Defoe, er, Jenas...
I'd say Modric and Van der Vaart weren't far off top players myself, perhaps not the finished 'superstar' article but not far off and the kind of player we should be in the market for.
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The first quote is very Gregoryesque and a little dated to be honest, as he may be in terms of being a league manager. I may be being slightly disngenuous but he was with the French team that imploded amid a group of very unhappy players to a level not seen at that level before, especially at a major tournament. The major tournament. He's now come to Villa and we're seeing the same sort of rebellion from certain players if the stories are to be believed. Its all worrying and the vibe at Villa Park has gone from one of hope, expectation, to one of acerbic regression Its all very worrying.
Two points re this, Peter:
- managers do tend to sort out the wheat from the chaff during their first period in charge of a new club. I regard what GH is doing as clarifying his position on the attitude and commitment of certain players that he has inherited; nothing wrong with that, IMHO.
- I don't know whether there's a sniff of 'rebellion' at B6: from what we're led to believe, MON alienated several squad players but maybe did so more privately. Given the performance of several senior players this season, perhaps there is a need for a rebellious fervour to be encouraged - let's get some passion and commitment into our play rather than the languid approach by some players.
As said above, January will be the time to assess whether there is a bright new dawn over VP or the nuclear pall of festering discontent.
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Whatever the merits of being a 'top player', what Spurs have done very well in recent seasons is sign the second tier type of player, talented and young and ready to move up a level. It's worked well for them: see Dawson, Huddlestone, Carrick, Lennon, Bale, Defoe, er, Jenas...
I'd say Modric and Van der Vaart weren't far off top players myself, perhaps not the finished 'superstar' article but not far off and the kind of player we should be in the market for.
Can't agree with modric tbh, he was a youngster with a few caps and with a decent reputation from a fairly average league. He also looked very average for the first half a season in the league.
Van Der Vaart is a bit of a red herring as he was only signed when they were champions league qualified (after they had made the group stage I believe).
We've got the start of a good system in place, most of us can agree Delph is showing all the signs of being a very good player, add him to all the other kids who've come through and the potential is definitely there, we just need to stick to it. A couple of good young uns in january and another half season of the kids and we'll be in a position to judge the squad properly.
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The first quote is very Gregoryesque and a little dated to be honest, as he may be in terms of being a league manager. I may be being slightly disngenuous but he was with the French team that imploded amid a group of very unhappy players to a level not seen at that level before, especially at a major tournament. The major tournament. He's now come to Villa and we're seeing the same sort of rebellion from certain players if the stories are to be believed. Its all worrying and the vibe at Villa Park has gone from one of hope, expectation, to one of acerbic regression Its all very worrying.
Two points re this, Peter:
- managers do tend to sort out the wheat from the chaff during their first period in charge of a new club. I regard what GH is doing as clarifying his position on the attitude and commitment of certain players that he has inherited; nothing wrong with that, IMHO.
- I don't know whether there's a sniff of 'rebellion' at B6: from what we're led to believe, MON alienated several squad players but maybe did so more privately. Given the performance of several senior players this season, perhaps there is a need for a rebellious fervour to be encouraged - let's get some passion and commitment into our play rather than the languid approach by some players.
As said above, January will be the time to assess whether there is a bright new dawn over VP or the nuclear pall of festering discontent.
I'm not so sure that January will be the exciting window many people seem to think. It's hard to sign good players then, regardless of money or ambition. I've decided to be patient and judge him at the start of next season when he has the big window to work with. That is of course assuming we're not heading towards the championship. Perhaps I'll be proved wrong, if so it'd be a nice surprise.
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he was with the French team that imploded amid a group of very unhappy players to a level not seen at that level before, especially at a major tournament. The major tournament.
He held the same position in the French FA when they won the World Cup in 1998.
And he was manager of the French team when they failed to qualify for USA 94 with Papin, Cantona, Ginola...
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What has become apparent is that the thought that Houlier would come in to steady the ship, poor oil on troubled waters, galvanise the squad and stabalise the club was totally wrong. He has obviously alienated players attempted to impose his regime and has been quick to let his feelings be known. Its the old country saying " if you let a fox loose in the chicken coup he is likely to ruffle up a few feathers"
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More like pouring petrol on the flames, that seems to be his approach to date.
He could change, of course. But at 63 years of age I doubt it.
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More like pouring petrol on the flames, that seems to be his approach to date.
He could change, of course. But at 63 years of age I doubt it.
Its a gamble without a doubt, he is saying "my way or the highway" the problem is the "Highway" aint that attratctive if you have a few years on your contract, the wrong side of 30 band getting paid £40k a week.
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Think he is simply showing players he wants total commitment and players who were not showing that now know where they stand. Moving closer to the club is part of that commitment and any future players will be made aware of that on arrival. Think he knows the players he wants in and i think Lerner wll fund hm. Getting the right players is critical. So we have to sit back and hope he gets it right .......................
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Robert Pires commuting from London every day must be an exception due to his short-term deal/being a buddy of the manager so.
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Perhaps this article has been raised in another thread - http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/dec/22/gerard-houllier-aston-villa-overhaul
Going to be a pretty painful overhaul. Guess the writer hasnt seen Warnock play in about 18 months. One of my least favourite Villa players of all time. An out and out coward who cant turn. I think Sidwell can get back to a semi decent level if he is a holding midfielder, he certainly isnt suited to the box to box headless role he managed at Villa. Carew is finished, Dunne and Friedel are getting on, Reo Coker is a surprising one though I suspect he is looking for a move back to London. Selling Davies could be Cahill esque I fear. I definitely would give him another chance. Beye and Luke Young are no surprise either. Ireland - disastrous move from the board. Will be a 3m write off minimum in the space of 5 months.
All in all it will be a huge overhaul and we still need to find buyers for the players. While MON pointed to the increase in value of Milner and Young, the sale of this crop will really show up his lack of strategic insight in his transfer dealings as we are facing huge net losses on all players mentioned. To be honest, while whatever manager came after MON was going to have to face this overhaul I really dont have any faith in Houllier to get it even remotely right. That is pretty worrying.
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There's an old saying round my way: 'If you let Hans Krankl in the chicken coop, he's bound to pour petrol on the false dawn'. It's an expression used mostly by pillocks
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Warnock a coward?
While he has put in some dodgy performances this season and does need replaceing I don't see that at all.
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Warnock has certainly lost that cutting edge. But a coward is far off the mark. For some reason he`s enthusiasm has gone out of sync with his timing and i am sure he can turn it round in training .............
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Warnock a coward but Sidwell decent? He's talking out of his arse.
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Warnock isn't in the least a coward. He just makes very poor decisions in the wrong area of the pitch. If it was Gabby throwing himself into those tackles you might write if off as a forward's challenge. Warnock should know much better. He's become a liability lately. I wouldn't neccessarily sell him because of his versatility and squad value, but I'd get somebody in that's younger and better.
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There's an old saying round my way: 'If you let Hans Krankl in the chicken coop, he's bound to pour petrol on the false dawn'. It's an expression used mostly by pillocks
Ahhhh, hans Krankl. Remember when he was one iof the hottest properties in European football? Everyone was trying to tempt him with offers of riches beyond his wildest dreams, football to build his legacy on, trophies to allow him to proudly show his grandchildren in his dotage. We tried to get him on loan...
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Can only echo what others have said. Warnock is definitely not a coward. I'd question whether you've watched him in the last 18 months, Bronte.
Yes he dives into challenges that he shouldn't but not a coward.
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There's an old saying round my way: 'If you let Hans Krankl in the chicken coop, he's bound to pour petrol on the false dawn'. It's an expression used mostly by pillocks
Ahhhh, hans Krankl. Remember when he was one iof the hottest properties in European football? Everyone was trying to tempt him with offers of riches beyond his wildest dreams, football to build his legacy on, trophies to allow him to proudly show his grandchildren in his dotage. We tried to get him on loan...
Then signed Peter Withe.
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Perhaps this article has been raised in another thread - http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/dec/22/gerard-houllier-aston-villa-overhaul
Going to be a pretty painful overhaul. Guess the writer hasnt seen Warnock play in about 18 months. One of my least favourite Villa players of all time. An out and out coward who cant turn. I think Sidwell can get back to a semi decent level if he is a holding midfielder, he certainly isnt suited to the box to box headless role he managed at Villa. Carew is finished, Dunne and Friedel are getting on, Reo Coker is a surprising one though I suspect he is looking for a move back to London. Selling Davies could be Cahill esque I fear. I definitely would give him another chance. Beye and Luke Young are no surprise either. Ireland - disastrous move from the board. Will be a 3m write off minimum in the space of 5 months.
All in all it will be a huge overhaul and we still need to find buyers for the players. While MON pointed to the increase in value of Milner and Young, the sale of this crop will really show up his lack of strategic insight in his transfer dealings as we are facing huge net losses on all players mentioned. To be honest, while whatever manager came after MON was going to have to face this overhaul I really dont have any faith in Houllier to get it even remotely right. That is pretty worrying.
Don't agree with your Warnock assessment at all, just a good player woefully out of form.
Also, wasn't GH's remit more evolution rather than evolution when he pitched up in September? Talk was it would be one or two deals in with one or two obvious deals out to supplement an already decent base.
Now in the space of 2/3 months it's moved on to wholesale changes, a complete overhaul no less. With that usually comes the benefit of an even longer period of assessment - as surely no manager can be judged 6 months/12 months possibly even 18 months after assembling virtually a new starting XI from scratch.
So depending on when you want to start the clock running: if it's after the first few deals in Jan that could possibly take us up as far as June 2012, if it's when most of the deals are done in the summer you're looking at Jan/Fen 2013.
A decent argument to ensure that you're paid for the duration of your top whack salary, a salary if you were GH you'd do well to match elsewhere. But outside of that, I must say I see it as odd and indeed quite a gamble that a manager with such a poor transfer record elsewhere, a guy who already splits opinion would be backed to that extent.
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Warnock spends five mins in each game at this stage on the ground. Any whack and he goes down generally during play such as Arsenal where he played everyone onside for about two mins. The boy who cries wolf comes to mind. Don't think he is a good player either. Never rated him at Blackburn, remember Milner tearing him a new one at Ewood Park a couple of seasons. His dive in first ask questions later approach has been thoroughly found out this season. He can't turn, is one paced and can't pass a ball. What is not to love