Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Phil from the upper holte on November 30, 2010, 03:49:00 PM
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My mate sent me this from Villa talk. Someone having a go at the general, Seemed a bit harsh to me..Or is it?
Sorry Gen but I dont agree - if Houllier is trying to be a Chess master he is clearly failing.
Don't get me wrong - I can see what he is attempting to do - ie: make us a better passing side, and as with the team that destroyed us today - attempt to keep the ball for long periods.
However, you can't win the Formula 1 Championship or NASCAR series driving a 48 tonne truck !
He doesn't have the players to do that General ! - in time, he may buy them, but you cannot get Richard Dunne and James Collins to suddenly become Bobby Moore.
Thus, he has, in the space of three months took what was a no-nonsense solid defence (what I would call an old fashioned "you don't score from row Z" defence) to an utter shambles !
And lo-and-behold - we are fighting relegation.
Now, lets take for example Owen Coyle - who played a passing, very attractive style at Burnley that even in the Championship were beating the likes of Spurs and Man U !.
He went to Bolton and took over the masters of Hoof ball - but has he tried turning Kevin Davies into Ronaldo ? - has he tried to turn Gary Cahill into Paulo Maldini - has he heck !
He has played to Bolton's strengths whilst he slowly buys his own players so he can change it gradually.
Sorry General - I've said it before, I am now sick of the spin - I want action. And it is sodding obvious what the Villa have needed for 4 yrs, and for 4 yrs you have said "MON sees what you see" "Gerard sees what you see" and now above "Randy sees what you see"
So one question
If you can all see it - why haven't you done something about it ?
and I know I am like a stuck record but I will say it until it sinks in - and if you don't know what I mean - look it up.
The non-signing on Darren Bent was our Juninho moment
Our chance for 10 yrs has gone !
You know - I was no Martin O'Neill lover - but I am absolutely amazed his name has not been chanted at Villa Park yet - lose Wednesday and I will guarentee it will be next game !
Oh Gen - before I forget - injuries ?
Weren't Arsenal missing Fabregas, Van Persie, Walcott, Vermaalen, Diaby, Eboue today, so please don't use our injuries as an excuse for today ! Lets face it, even with a fully fit squad, the only players we would have had back in the line up today was Gabby, NRC and maybe Petrov (however that one has to be debated as Clark and Bannan would surely stake a claim to that spot at the moment)
Oh and if you say Albrighton - so who you gonna drop - Ashley Young ? - apparently the manager thinks he is worth 80 million !
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I got as far as 'fighting relegation' and 'Owen Coyle' (flavour of the month for any supporter who is pissed off) and gave up.
Bottom line is that we're missing a shed load of players and judgement can not be made until we're up to speed with returning players and a couple of new ones chosen by Houllier.
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there are some valid points hidden in there...
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there are some valid points hidden in there...
Deeply.
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That poster says 'He's amazed that MON's name has not been chanted at Villa Park yet'
Truly delirious.
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We've not signed lots of players, why does Darren Bent get a special mention.
At least Juninho got to meet Doug.
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"I wasn't an MON fan but..." is the new "I'm not racist but...."
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this is a new one, posting over what some other poster has posted on another website!
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Yes its 20% fair enough whinge and 80% utter bollocks.
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It's truly a rant of the not much thought attached variety.
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No, it's an absolute load of toss.
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there are some valid points hidden in there...
Deeply.
dont get me wrong, i dont agree with all of it, and there is some real nonsense in there (calling o'neills name? do me a favour...), but there are some valid points in there...
the whoever is in charge "sees what we see" comment for example... that was the case for 3 years under o'neill, yet naff all was done about certain things...
the fact that our defence has turned from one of the best to one of the worst, is another valid point... an obvious point, but a valid one nonetheless...
however, given that houllier hasnt had the chance to make his own player changes has been overlooked by the poster, does sort of make the whole context of the comments, a little premature...
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You can't blame the board for what O'Neill didn't want to do. Their biggest mistake was to give him too much power.
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You know - I was no Martin O'Neill lover - but I am absolutely amazed his name has not been chanted at Villa Park yet - lose Wednesday and I will guarentee it will be next game !
!
Drug addicts..........................ps guarentee 2/10 see me
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It's not an unreasonable post, but he shoots his own argument down by citing Owen Coyle. Because Coyle has changed Bolton's style, in just a few months, using almost entirely the same squad that was playing such poor football under Gary Megson. Hardly any Coyle signings in that team.
I don't think our defence is shaky suddenly because we're trying to play a neater style of football.
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That poster says 'He's amazed that MON's name has not been chanted at Villa Park yet'
Truly delirious.
and then goes to say 'lose Wednesday and I will guarentee it will be next game !'
I very much doubt it.
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You can't blame the board for what O'Neill didn't want to do. Their biggest mistake was to give him too much power.
as is said all the time, by fans and the board alike, actions speak louder than words, and we heard words all the time about o'neill "seeing things", but no action taken...
dont get me wrong, i love the board... i think randy and the general are the best thing to happen to villa in most of my villa supporting years, but they cant claim that "actions speak louder than words" and that "we see what you see", and then take no action, and not expect people to see and highlight that...
but i understand what you are saying...
as i said, the overall point of the whole post, IS extremely premature...
if the same thing is happening in two years time, then maybe the comments will have more validity... i dont think that will be the case though...
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That person has a point in all fairness. Although it's nice to see we play a refreshing style of football with nice passing if the defence is going to be worse off because of it I just don't know. Like that person said, we need to find a balance... but atleast with Houllier regarding the transfer market he knows what he needs and will try his best to get the players we need, unlike MON who just completely ignored the transfer window not buying a striker which cost us a chance of playing in the Champions League. I don't know, but I wish Randy would of said something to MON, all it did was let MON continue what HE wanted to do and just disregard what was best for the team/club.
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It's also a bit of a myth that we had an Iron Curtain defence under O'Neill. I can remember some right defensive cock-ups in the early days.
On the subject of maangers, anyone remember Paul Jewell, the new Clough? Darren Ferguson? Ian Dowie? And is David Moyes destined for Old Trafford still?
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What does have a hint of truth is our injury situation.
Of the side on Saturday Gabby, Albrighton and Reo-Coker would definitely come back in - after that no-one really.
Admittedly our bench would be much stronger - the point is we are a less disciplined and organised side generally at the moment than we were under O'Neill.
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if the same thing is happening in two years time, then maybe the comments will have more validity...
That's the absolute crux of the matter. Even if we had no injuries we still have a manager who is trying to impose his own style on another manager's players, unable to bring new ones in and introduce an entire backroom team - and all this during the season. Yet there are supporters who would have him sacked tomorrow.
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Of the side on Saturday Gabby, Albrighton and Reo-Coker would definitely come back in - after that no-one really.
We were certainly crying out for more pace upfront on Saturday so they would have made a difference there.
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In terms of taking action, there's not an awful lot of action you can do from September-December.
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It's also a bit of a myth that we had an Iron Curtain defence under O'Neill. I can remember some right defensive cock-ups in the early days.
From memory (and am willing to be corrected on this), our defence was pretty poor the season before last, excellent the first half of last year and was poor again for the second half of last season.
For what it's worth i think that it's way too early to be judging GH, he has to be given until at least this time next year to see what he can do, and after his signings have bedded in.
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I'm not going to judge Houllier on an injury ravaged team that he took over after the season had started. He's doing the best with what he inherited.
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Even the main point the ranter was trying to make is flawed. I don't think that GH has been trying to change completely the way that the players should play! Dunne's lack of general fitness, Collins' propensity to drop one big clanger in each game (a la Zat Knight), Warnock's skill transplant and Friedel's growing flakiness are not a result of GH's new training methods (such as they might be).
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I couldn't be bothered to read it all. Sorry.
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If I was on the Board ( God forbid) when MON buggared off I would have looked at the original "five year plan".
I would have sought a manager to take us into Europe and stay there. I would have looked for someone who had English Prem experience with a top side. I think I would have looked at MON and his group and accepted that good as he was he could not take us to the 'next level'. As they say. He was spent. And greedy again.
I did not fancy the Sven and I was stuck. Then GH made sense.
In the short term. Two years. Maybe three.
Bad time now. Easy target. Give him space. TG for youth team/reserves. etc. Not his fault with injuries or timing but praise for using them.
IMHO GH a good decision.
But. We need a good'un soon. A long term appointment. Have the Board a long term plan?
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I didn't read it either, and from previous Krulak threads the General can certainly handle himself.
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I couldn't be bothered to read it all. Sorry.
Neither could I but surely....
I'm not going to judge Houllier on an injury ravaged team that he took over after the season had started. He's doing the best with what he inherited.
This is the bottom line, isn't it?
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I'm not going to judge Houllier on an injury ravaged team that he took over after the season had started. He's doing the best with what he inherited.
I agree.
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this is a new one, posting over what some other poster has posted on another website!
My mate told me about it, I just wondered what the good folk of H&V thought, My point was it is harsh what he said or does he have a point, I personally thought he was being rude but as Maz said it was about 20% accurate and 80% bollocks!!
You can't judge GH yet and I will never ever call Mon's name and I doubt anyone would.
I have also read blogs on other sites saying Houllier needs sacking, I think they are bonkers also
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I couldn't be bothered to read it all. Sorry.
Neither could I but surely....
I'm not going to judge Houllier on an injury ravaged team that he took over after the season had started. He's doing the best with what he inherited.
This is the bottom line, isn't it?
That is the bottom line.
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what a wanker
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What an idiot.
As for his post here what I think to his moans.
1. Coyle has taken nearly a year to get settled.
2. Arsenel played their first 11 bar fabregas, Vermaleen
3. Errrr we'd drop Pires for Albrighton.
4. How can we play the way we did under Oneil if Milner has gone and half his first team are injured.
5. Gerrard has admitted we need to strengthen.
6. We never got Bent because Oneil was a dick in the transfer Market.
And finally show abit of respect to Randy for goodness sake.
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"I wasn't an MON fan but..." is the new "I'm not racist but...."
No it's not. Racist apologists are ******. MON apologists are Villa fans with a different opinion to me.
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I read it and thought he made a few good points. I then read it again and decided most of it was just ranting crap.
He has a point regarding the defence i suppose, Dunne and Collins are nowhere near as good as they were last season and his decision to drop Cuellar after the Wolves game puzzled me. Other than that, the injuries certinaly have'nt helped what's he's trying to do and the second half against Man Utd showed what can be achevieved.
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What an idiot.
As for his post here what I think to his moans.
1. Coyle has taken nearly a year to get settled.
2. Arsenel played their first 11 bar fabregas, Vermaleen
3. Errrr we'd drop Pires for Albrighton.
4. How can we play the way we did under Oneil if Milner has gone and half his first team are injured.
5. Gerrard has admitted we need to strengthen.
6. We never got Bent because Oneil was a dick in the transfer Market.
And finally show abit of respect to Randy for goodness sake.
This and the General too! , I do think the General sometimes says what we want to hear (just an opinion) but were lucky to be able to but I think some people speak to him like shit
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Reads like complete bollocks to me, top to bottom.
Starts of with calling the General Gen and then disintegrates from there at a rate of knots.
If our CB's were getting caught in possession all the time trying elaborate Beckenbauer style passes he might have a point. Or if our defence was having to cope with far more than usual as the midfield offered no resistance he might be onto something. But they're not having to deal with far more. They're just failing to deal with what little they do face.
In particular: the games when we've been on top for long spells, Stoke, Sunderland, Fulham, Man U. We probably should have won all of those games.
Thing is Collins can actually pass too, at least the Collins of last year. But they're not getting caught out doing that. They're getting caught out doing the basic things defenders should be doing, namely reading the play to intercept the ball, failing to clear crosses and all the rest of it.
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I think the guy on VT has summed up quite a few of my own thoughts, and done so in a very mature and well worded manner.
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If our CB's were getting caught in possession all the time trying elaborate Beckenbauer style passes he might have a point.
Good, erm, point!
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I don't think there is any merit in the original post. By the indignation that someone hasn't been respectful to the chairman and a board director? There still seems to be a cross between being star struck with one of them being on here and the fear that they may leave if we aren't always cosying up to them.
Tht are board members. Here for their interests first and foremost. They still should be held to account for what happened post0-MON during the transfer window that closed without them moving to get someone in to get players in and allowing this poor season to begin so badly. Yes, MON takes the vast majority of the blame but so do they.
They have done brilliantly so far but close ranks when Randy is criticised and return venom to anyone that dares criticise. They use this board as a mouthpiece for the press, and it irks me that we still have posters saying that we should show 'Respect' for Randy. He's been great for us so far but why do we need to doff our caps as that is the overriding feeling from those who post that nonsense.
Yeah, I know you've heard me rant about this before, and I know I'm in a minority but there you go.
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Gen? Fucking Gen? What a pillock.
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What does have a hint of truth is our injury situation.
Of the side on Saturday Gabby, Albrighton and Reo-Coker would definitely come back in - after that no-one really.
Admittedly our bench would be much stronger - the point is we are a less disciplined and organised side generally at the moment than we were under O'Neill.
Petrov, Heskey and Cuellar would all be there or thereabouts.
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I'm not going to judge Houllier on an injury ravaged team that he took over after the season had started. He's doing the best with what he inherited.
He's doing his best, whether that is "the best" only time will tell.
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What does have a hint of truth is our injury situation.
Of the side on Saturday Gabby, Albrighton and Reo-Coker would definitely come back in - after that no-one really.
Admittedly our bench would be much stronger - the point is we are a less disciplined and organised side generally at the moment than we were under O'Neill.
Petrov, Heskey and Cuellar would all be there or thereabouts.
easy to forget that Heskey was playong as well as he's played for a very long time and was scoring and creating. He has been a huge miss for us.
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On the defence, it's no surprise that out-and-out defenders like Mellberg, Cuellar and Bouma, even playing at full-back, were better at defending than more attack-minded players like Luke Young, Warnock and Shorey. Even though I didn't agree with it, I did find it baffling why so many posters found it baffling.
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That's a bit too simplistic percy. A player is a defender because that's where his natural talents are. I'm not sure your Bouma v luke Young argument is compelling enough to be right. Or that Ashley Cole is not the best left full-back in world footballer and him being attack minded.
Warnock started out playing blinders for us for about half a season and has been struggling since he got injured and returned to the team. he really needs to be dropped. You also compared full-backs to central-defenders which isn't an accurate comparison.
Is Pique (Barcelona one) better worse than Mellberg or Cuellar because he's attack minded?
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Don't know about Pique, but surely everyone on here knows that Mellberg, Cuellar and Bouma are/were better in defensive situations, both in open play and especially at set-pieces, than Young, Shorey and Warnock. Sometimes, as you rightly point out, you get players who are excellent at both parts of the job, like Cole. Unfortunatly, such players usually end up at clubs like Chelsea and Barcelona.
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But you're talking about specific players. The ones that you use fit the criteria as you point out. But it doesn't mean that all defensive minded players are the better defenders as the likes of Cole, ferdinand, Pique etc highlight. But, fair point, they do tend to be at the top clubs.
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But you're talking about specific players. The ones that you use fit the criteria as you point out.
That's because I'm talking about a specific defence - ours. I thought we all were.
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I thought you were making a point that defence only defenders were better than attack-minded defenders per se. If not, then my apologies.
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I don't think there is any merit in the original post. By the indignation that someone hasn't been respectful to the chairman and a board director?
If that's aimed at me then cheers.
I did say the post started badly and got worse, so it wasn't just about the lack of respect to begin with. The post had no merit because it was largely balls. The opening salvo just set the tone.
You seem to confuse common courtesy with arse licking, cosying up and all the rest of it. I've often disagreed with the General in the past. I just tend to think that if a priest, doctor or someone high ranking in the military has earned a title it's basic manners to address them accordingly -unless they insist otherwise. Familiarity breeds contempt to an extent and I guess him coming on here and other sites so often leads people to believe that they know him. I don't know him so I'm not going to chat to him like a mate.
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It wasn't. But my post stemmed from someone endng their post to asking to show randy some respect "for f... sake". The word respect was used in the context that he was great and not just the same way anyone should anyone else some respect.
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OK apologies. As you were.
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I thought you were making a point that defence only defenders were better than attack-minded defenders per se. If not, then my apologies.
No problem. I'm a purist so I prefer attacking full-backs, but I can see the logic in picking players like Cuellar there. I'd rather see us win 4-3 than 1-0. Any win at all presently though.
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the point is we are a less disciplined and organised side generally at the moment than we were under O'Neill.
The real point is Mon had 12 players who played week in week out Houllier has yet to find 5 who play regularly week in week out with the injury and illness situation.
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The real point is Mon had 12 players who played week in week out Houllier has yet to find 5 who play regularly week in week out with the injury and illness situation.
I'm no O'Neill apologist, but you're talking shite here (surprise surprise).
We've clearly got a lot of injuries, but to say that they're all first team starters is obviously rubbish.