Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Concrete John on November 24, 2010, 10:59:48 AM
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Something in the transfer thread made me think - what is more likely to get our attendances up?
Are people more likely to start coming or renew their season tickets based upon entertainment or success? Would you be happier with a magnificient 6-6 draw or a boring 1-0 win? What would add more to our average gate - winning the FA Cup or signing a £20m player?
I know the answer most of us have is 'both', but for the purposes of the poll it's a straight choice.
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Winning, even if it's winning ugly.
I think a trophy would make a world of difference, easier said than done though.
As Mazrim mentioned on the transfer thread, a 'wow' signing (striker) would make a big difference
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you only have to look at arsenal...
they havent won anything in years, but the demand is such for tickets at their place, they can now charge £100...
so entertaining football for me... with that, there is always the hope and optimism that with some tweaks, you could win something with the entertaining football...
with dull 1-0 wins, there is always the nagging doubt that when you get found out, you will lose with dull football...
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I can't think of many occasions over the years when we have won and I've been depressed because of the performance.
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you only have to look at arsenal...
they havent won anything in years, but the demand is such for tickets at their place, they can now charge £100...
Yet they're successful enough, as in a regular top 4 side, that their fans know a trophy is a lot more likely than with us, plus they see their team win more often than we do.
They actually score above us in both categories.
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I confess to being one of those who comes to a football match to be entertained. Winning is great, but winning all the time would become boring, because of its unpredictability. Following a football team is to become part of a great, unfolding drama, with all that that implies. The comedy, the tragedy, the exhilaration, the depression. In the end it all comes down to showing that indefinable quality that we call "character". That's what I want - a team with character.
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Take that apparently. i the old days if you signed someone like George Best it would put another 10,000 on the gate or guarantee sell outs, we cannot sell out against manu now which is not good enough, I know times are tight though.
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I would have to say winning at the end of the season i would like a trophy in the cabinet.
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Four things, in no particular order, and not all necessarily things we don't have
1. Players people will get excited about coming to watch
2. Entertaining football
3. Good results
4. Winning things.
5. Affordable tickets.
Errm, soz, five things.
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I think primarily its the belief that when watching your team you have an excellent chance of winning. It shouldnt be that way and for many, its not, but if you want the extra crowds on top of the hardcore you have to offer something. A hope of winning, even if its just the game.
But that alone isnt enough to get big, big crowds. Under MON we had a fair winning percentage but crowds never went into the 41-43k+ average it could do. In only one season (2007/08) did we play the kind of cavalier style people might call entertaining and even then we leaked goals and lost/drew more than we should have done. But we had the highest crowds for years and there was a buzz about the place. We still lacked one or two wow signings though that, in my opinion, would have sealed the deal. For all our endeavour and industry we also lacked a bit of sophistication in our play, a bit of flair that adds that extra bit of entertainment.
So to sum up, you need a bit of both. A chance of winning silverware AND winning with some style. There's no reason why Villa cant get big big crowds, in the 50k range, regularly if both of those criteria are met. But its a big ask and a big financial risk.
I think we're going to be reasonably successful and entertaining once Houllier has had some time putting his plans into motion. Even if he wont be the manager to see it to fruition.
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I can remember a game v Middlesbrough in the Gregory era where we won 1-0 and Ellis made some veiled comment in the press about the dull football and lack of excitement. Gregory responded that winning was everything but it is not the case as others have said. His sides rarely filled the ground.
Winning is important but excitement is what regularly seems to pack villa Park out.
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If you look at last season -where we had decent spells unbeaten and were in the hunt (largely as outsiders) for 4th right up until the penultimate weekend of the campaign- it still wasn't enough to sell out every home game.
17 wins in total, that's could be viewed as a decent impression of winning football. Yet the football was so turgid at home that there was only so long that could go on before it impacted on attendances. The recession played a part too, obv.
But if you contrast that to 07/08 when we weren't realistically in the hunt for top 4 and had some up and down results the attendances were better. More defeats at home that year, but when we won we tended to win well.
To feel like we're on the move again it will probably need a combination of decent signings and a decent sequence of results. I'd suggest the latter is also dependent of the former so for me it's not an either/ or scenario.
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Less football on TV
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No more boom and bust.
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Winning, full stop.
This side will be entertaining, the foward plyers are very entertaining, when the balance/clientele up front is sorted, then we will be very entertaining, and i think bums will be put back on seats.
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Winning. I find pass pass pass quite boring actually, I'd rather see us get down the other end quickly I find that more exciting and more likely to get me off my feet.
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Four things, in no particular order, and not all necessarily things we don't have
1. Players people will get excited about coming to watch
2. Entertaining football
3. Good results
4. Winning things.
5. Affordable tickets.
Errm, soz, five things.
6. Good refs (protected by.....)
7. A strong FA (that doesn't let big teams get away with everything)
8. Players NOT earning stupid amounts of money.
9. And acting like twats
But mostly
10 The idea that every team has a chance to win all the trophies.
Football died for me when, at the start of a season, I stopped saying, "if these new signings gel we might just win this" and started saying "if these new signings gel we might finish 5th".
I've been going since but football as a sport is dead. It is now entertainment. And sadly, when it isn't even that, it's not worth going.
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So to sum up, you need a bit of both. A chance of winning silverware AND winning with some style. There's no reason why Villa cant get big big crowds, in the 50k range, regularly if both of those criteria are met. But its a big ask and a big financial risk.
Why? We never have before, consistently. We'd need an unparalleled (last 100 years) 5 year period of success to approach that.
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Yeah, agree with that point Mac.......a lot of people of my generation, mid 40s, are fed up with the same old, same old at the top, we must finish in the top 4 obsession that we have now.
I would love to see some kind of reorganization of the Prem, that makes it similar to the NFL, whereby you get a constant changeing of top teams.That would bring the enjoyment/excitement back to the Prem.
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A bit of both. But not feeling like your paying your money and not getting anything back in return. If your entertained and/or winning it's a lot easier to reason that you are getting some value for money. In times when going to the football is a luxury people have to be able to justify the expense to themselves. Some of the football at VP over the last two years has been dire and the results haven't been great either. £400 per year plus beer, travel etc is half a summer holiday. £40 last's a lot longer than 90 minutes in the pub.
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Four things, in no particular order, and not all necessarily things we don't have
1. Players people will get excited about coming to watch
2. Entertaining football
3. Good results
4. Winning things.
5. Affordable tickets.
Errm, soz, five things.
Aren't 1 & 5 mutually exclusive?
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Four things, in no particular order, and not all necessarily things we don't have
1. Players people will get excited about coming to watch
2. Entertaining football
3. Good results
4. Winning things.
5. Affordable tickets.
Errm, soz, five things.
Aren't 1 & 5 mutually exclusive?
They might be, but we don't need to have all five.
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Kids for £1.
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Cheap tickets bring people in short-term. To keep them you need to win.
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Cheap tickets bring people in short-term. To keep them you need to win.
...and keep winning. You need momentum, so that it continually builds and you get, for want of a better word, a buzz around the club where people think that they might miss something by not going. So that tickets start becoming harder to get hold of for big games and people need a history of attending other games to get one.
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With a combination of exciting 'big-name' players and a supportive national media, it's possible to get bigger crowds. We might get the players, although it's hard to attract them without the supportive national media telling people we're fashionable. We haven't got the support of the national media and won't have, even grudging support, until we're winning games.
So, we need to win - games and trophies. It doesn't matter how we win them, just win them.
You can play the best football in the world, but without results nobody outside of Villa Park will sit up and take notice. Even a national media in love with the Sky-four, Man City and Spurs won't be able to ignore trophies.
Win, and they will come.
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1. Affordable tickets
2. Entertaining football
3. Good results
4. Winning things
Put it this way - I've never envied United or Chelsea, I'd get bored with winning all those trophies year after year, and thinking "not that shit again" every time the Charity Shield comes around.
But I'd never get bored or watching Arsenal play.
I just hope we get the better of them in what promises to be an entertaining game on Saturday.
Affordable tickets has to come first though, "beautiful football" on the radio is not quite the same.
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I find pass pass pass quite boring actually, I'd rather see us get down the other end quickly I find that more exciting and more likely to get me off my feet.
The problem is if you build your teams to do that you risk falling into games of deadly boredom when the opposing teams come to "park the bus" and you don't have the guile to break them down, and you also risk getting a good spanking when your players run out of steam with 20 - 30 minutes left (see Chelsea, 7-1).
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I find pass pass pass quite boring actually, I'd rather see us get down the other end quickly I find that more exciting and more likely to get me off my feet.
The problem is if you build your teams to do that you risk falling into games of deadly boredom when the opposing teams come to "park the bus" and you don't have the guile to break them down, and you also risk getting a good spanking when your players run out of steam with 20 - 30 minutes left (see Chelsea, 7-1).
Yet Arsenal, who can only play that way, don't achieve what they should as they don't have that near mythical 'plan B' for when their passing game isn't working. I think to be truely successful you need more than one string to your bow and most importantly know when to use which one.
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So to sum up, you need a bit of both. A chance of winning silverware AND winning with some style. There's no reason why Villa cant get big big crowds, in the 50k range, regularly if both of those criteria are met. But its a big ask and a big financial risk.
Why? We never have before, consistently. We'd need an unparalleled (last 100 years) 5 year period of success to approach that.
Sorry Mac, not sure what you're asking here...?
If you're saying we'd need a run of unprecedented success to get 50k crowds, I agree. But if one is possible then so is the other, in my opinion.
And as Dave says, lowering the price is a good idea and to be fair, the current board offer plenty of incentives which is great but they can only do so much in the climate and considering our competitors and what they charge.
A lot of these problems do stem from Football being in a bit of a state but our crowds werent that great when it was cheap to go either.
Another good point was that there is too much football on the TV. It does border on taking the piss but whilst there's an audience and money behind it, it wont change.
Nothing will change until SKY and the billionaires sod off, which sounds hypocritical as we have one ourselves. In fairness, I'd want Randy to be our owner even without all his money.
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Irrespective of how we have played and what we have won, we have never filled Villa Park on a regular basis (in my life time - 1957 - date). Can`t see that changing ever - unless we whip out 10k seats !
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short term - winning and signing a wow player
long term - realising that we aren't appealing to the local community and making the club theirs as much as the club belonged to the local communitites before it became predominately Asian.
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It is a bit of both. I mean if we played boring football but won the league ala George Graham's Arsenal days we would all be happy.
If it is a choice between being boring and finishing 5th or being entertaining and finishing 7/8th, then it becomes more difficult.
Personally it is about winning for me, if we can win with style then all the better.
I am struggling to think of a wow player that would seriously add to our gate. I mean Messi and the like aside.
When was the last time we signed a wow player ? Collymore ? Angel ? I doubt they seriously increased the gates. Sign a few of them and watch the results improve, and you would see and increase though.
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I think more affordable prices would really help. I remember a price cut against Wimbledon at home years ago and the attendance was 10k up on same fixture the year before. I don't go as much as I would like as I simply can't afford it.
All those empty seats at the grounds, if anyone at any club had any savy they should give away free tickets to say kids under 10 with a parent and get them interested in the game too.
Another important factor is that in the 70's and 80's kids didnt spend hours locked away in bedrooms online playing World of Warcraft or similar games. Home entertainment in general is far more sophisticated than what it was and football will suffer for that. Last time two of us went to Villa Park it cost well over £100, thats equivalent to a good meal out, a trip to the cinema and a taxi home.
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I think these days the two tend to go together. Those battling at the top are the teams with the most exciting players.
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A bit of both.
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Affordable tickets has to come first though, "beautiful football" on the radio is not quite the same.
I'm afraid to say that it doesn't.
Two equally ridiculous examples prove it:
Arsenal - about to charge people £100 for a standard ticket yet there is a waiting list of people trying to get in the ground on match days.
Sutton Coldifeld Town FC - my local club. Tickets are extremely affordable yet they're grateful for 100 people through the turnstiles.
The reality is that success brings fans. Look at the best supported clubs/teams in the world of any sport - generally (and there are always exceptions to the rule) they correlate with the most successful. Sport is entertainment and people want to feel good when they watch sport. You feel good when your team wins. A good performance generally accompanies a success but it's secondary.
It's fairly simple pyschology really.
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A mix of winning and entertaining football. If you're winning every week but winning 1-0 you won't fill the ground, it may be a winning team but fans will be bored by the football on show. Under O'Neill we finished 6th but i was bored to tears in the process, i'd rather watch entertaining, exciting football. Some quality players would help aswell, Gabby is our best striker which says it all, a big name striker would get the crowds in.
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Quick and neat passing on the break from players who value the club, if you don't believe that they can value the fans then have a look at Schalke or any other Bundesliga side and see the relationship between the club and the fans. We could learn a lot from them as their prices are around a third of the prices of the premier leagues, that is my two penneth!
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Superglue!
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Winning ugly will not improve attendances it might satisfy the hard core supporter but they will turn up anyway, it's turning the every so often supporter into a regular that gets gates up. If we sighned Messi this week what would the next home match attendance be? i reckon it would put 10.000 on the gate and if we start winning then a fair few will come back every home game. As someone previously said you have to be in a position where fans turn up because they are frightened of missing something.
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Superglue!
Dehli belly?
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winning is not everything it is the only thing, there has to be an excitement about going to see a game and if you think there is a good chance we will lose then there is less optimism and comitment to go, there is a hard core that will turn up whateever but if you want to get crowds of 40 to 50 thousand consistantly then winning and the possibility of winning something is paramount
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Winning, absolutely, but the problem with that is that no side really wins forever. Only Man Utd, Barcelona and Real Madrid can claim to practically uninterrupted success in the major leagues of Europe can claim pretty much constant success over the last decade - and I don't think people are about to call them unattractive sides to watch. Ultimately, I do think that, generally speaking, genuinely unattractive football can win you the odd trophy here and there, but the kind of sustained success that would genuinely affect attendances requires a kind of football that is necessarily good to watch - even Chelsea under Mourinho, or Inter under Mourinho, were capable of breathtaking football, great passing and interplay and all the rest of it. For genuine success, I don't think you can do it without good football.
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agree Monty, you have to play good football, it can be argued that Chelsea play good football but its not entertaining in fact i think it is pretty dull, watching Arsenal is pleasing on the eye but exciting-nah - good football = successfull football but does not equate to exciting football
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Some new unknown young european talent. Hopefully that is what Houllier will bring in come January .....
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10 The idea that every team has a chance to win all the trophies.
This i feel has a huge part to play - when speaking to people of Villa persuasion we all know that even with a huge spend on some very good players we will never win the league again unless the main players completely implode (This is the same for around 90% of all teams) so it can leave you with the view of "Whats the point" if you feel there is no chance in competetion why bother?
I also think the media have a big part to play in it - if they are reporting us as an exciting team on the up who play good football then peoples heads are turned and will want to see it. A few contibuting things would help
1/ Win a trophy
2/ Make beating United / Chelsea / Arsenal a regularity rather than a rarity
3/ Sign some / A sexy player in the eyes of the media (not always guaranteed though as our history of "named" players is not great)
4/ Move to London and change our name to "Tottenham"
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the excitement of watching Tony Daley
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Some new unknown young european talent. Hopefully that is what Houllier will bring in come January .....
Nectar.
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the excitement of watching Tony Daley
Yes. A big signing of an exciting attacking player, that would get fans snapping up tickets.
I can't remember the last time we singed someone that got fans excited.
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Yes. A big signing of an exciting attacking player, that would get fans snapping up tickets.
I can't remember the last time we singed someone that got fans excited.
You weren't excited about Habib Beye?!
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David Ginola