Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Martyn Smith on November 23, 2010, 08:23:05 AM
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What do think is Villa's, as a club and a team rather than related to any individual players, biggest weakness. For me this is something that's always been there to a greater or lesser degree, and was certainly prevalent in the late 70s when I first started taking an interest, and that's an inability to close a game down, especially from a 2-0 lead. The most recent example of course being v Man U weekend before last. 2-0 up with a quarter of an hour to go at home, we don't seem to change our tactics at all. When you're 2-0 up at home to a club like Man U in the dying stages of the game you concentrate on defending what you have. It just didn't seem like we had the nous to do that, and it seemed so typical and predictable...
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As mad as it sounds I think it is a Brummie/Midlands thing. Be honest, once Man Utd pulled a goal back did any Villa fans not expect Utd to equalise? I think that the team felt the same. We don't seem to have that killer instinct when it comes to the crunch. Just like Brummies never boast about our City and are quite used to being slagged off hence Manchester's rise to the self-proclaimed second city of the UK. We lack belief and arrogance.
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Lack of self-belief.
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Holding the lead doesn't just apply to individual games, it also applies to holding a lead in the league - 1988, 1990, 1993.
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As a Brummie living outside the country I can tell you that the image of the city really does not help. Speak of Manchester and people see Man Utd, music and ''cool''. Speak of Birmingham and its just ''oh isn't that an industrial city, like The Ruhr'' If you're a foreign footballer looking for an overseas move, image counts and like it or not our image is not good and it impacts us.
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Movement off the ball.
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We are not a 90 minute team, good first half or good second half or something in between flashes of great football then silly mistakes, they need to up their concentration levels.
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Movement off the ball.
That's what I'd have said.
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As a Brummie living outside the country I can tell you that the image of the city really does not help. Speak of Manchester and people see Man Utd, music and ''cool''. Speak of Birmingham and its just ''oh isn't that an industrial city, like The Ruhr'' If you're a foreign footballer looking for an overseas move, image counts and like it or not our image is not good and it impacts us.
It never affected Liverpool or Newcastle when they were attracting big name players, though. We're also an hour and a small bit from London, too, which has to count for something.
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Movement off the ball is a problem, but it's a symptom of the present team and not a 'club issue', which is what I think the thread is about.
I agree with NeilH - we have a profile issue. The game has evolved over the history of the PL and during that time the media have been obsessed with London and Man Utd, because of their success, and Liverpool, because of their history. We appear as one of the poor relations and this hinders our recruitment of both managers and players.
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We're also an hour and a small bit from London, too, which has to count for something.
It would if Johnny Foreigner knew where Birmingham actually was.
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Conceding goals at the end of the first half has cost us a result Sunday and v Spurs.
We lack that belief or concentration.
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As a Brummie living outside the country I can tell you that the image of the city really does not help. Speak of Manchester and people see Man Utd, music and ''cool''. Speak of Birmingham and its just ''oh isn't that an industrial city, like The Ruhr'' If you're a foreign footballer looking for an overseas move, image counts and like it or not our image is not good and it impacts us.
It never affected Liverpool or Newcastle when they were attracting big name players, though. We're also an hour and a small bit from London, too, which has to count for something.
I can only call it as I see it and Brum has a rotten image problem which affects us greatly. Liverpool still has the Beatles legacy and a world famous team. Newcastle were dangling the carrot of unprecedented wages which would have attracted virtually anyone at the time.
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Movement off the ball is a problem, but it's a symptom of the present team and not a 'club issue', which is what I think the thread is about.
I agree with NeilH - we have a profile issue. The game has evolved over the history of the PL and during that time the media have been obsessed with London and Man Utd, because of their success, and Liverpool, because of their history. We appear as one of the poor relations and this hinders our recruitment of both managers and players.
You've mentioned two teams there which the media have been obsessed with, and those teams are two of the most successful. Coincidence?
If the media is obsessed with teams from London and the north west, that's because they actually win everything.
If another team from a different area threatens to win things or achieve things, the media will switch on to them, too.
Look at the way they kept telling us Newcastle were our second team when they were qualifying for the CL regularly and finishing second.
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We're also an hour and a small bit from London, too, which has to count for something.
It would if Johnny Foreigner knew where Birmingham actually was.
Alabama ?
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We lack a winning mentality. How many of our players have actually won trophies? Apart from Pires.
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Movement off the ball is a problem, but it's a symptom of the present team and not a 'club issue', which is what I think the thread is about.
I agree with NeilH - we have a profile issue. The game has evolved over the history of the PL and during that time the media have been obsessed with London and Man Utd, because of their success, and Liverpool, because of their history. We appear as one of the poor relations and this hinders our recruitment of both managers and players.
You've mentioned two teams there which the media have been obsessed with, and those teams are two of the most successful. Coincidence?
If the media is obsessed with teams from London and the north west, that's because they actually win everything.
If another team from a different area threatens to win things or achieve things, the media will switch on to them, too.
Look at the way they kept telling us Newcastle were our second team when they were qualifying for the CL regularly and finishing second.
That's true, but Newcastle bought their way into that by out spending everyone at the time, which we can't do.
The basic problem as i see it is a player is coming to England and has an offer from Villa and Spurs (for arguments sake, lets say this is before their CL qualification). With matching wages and similar league positions, he'll choose Spurs 9 times out of 10 due to the London thing being rammed down his throat by every media outlet.
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Movement off the ball.
That's what I'd have said.
I'd agree, hopefully Houllier, Mcalister & Cowans are trying to fix that, Also self belief and we lack quality. Man ure for instance we needed to shut up shop but there was no-one on the bench to bring on.
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In the 40 odd years I've been a supporter, I can probably count on one hand the number of seasons that we've scored freely. We've probably only had two or three consistent and effective goalscorers in that time (Withe and Yorke).
And what are we bemoaning at the moment?- a consistent 20 goal a season striker.
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Not much wrong at the moment that having our injured players back wouldn't put right. As for the goalscorer, we've needed him for a couple of seasons. Also need a better central-defender and a younger keeper.
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We lack a winning mentality. How many of our players have actually won trophies? Apart from Pires.
Carew, Heskey, Friedel, Downing, Luke Young, Petrov, Cuellar, Beye.....
Take your point though.
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We need to settle on a formation which suits our better players, at the moment we are playing 4-4-1-1 almost by default, because of the injuries, but also because our 3 most influential players are all wingers, who have to be accomodated in the team, hence Ashley playing off the front man.
For a while now Gabby seems to want to get into a battle with the centre halves rather than use his speed to get behind defences, I know he has bulked up to become stronger but he shouldn't feel the need to prove it every game.
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Need a 20 goal a season man. One who does it season in, season out, not just once in a blue moon
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Crap defense, that's our weakest link.
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We need to concentrate more when we are in winning positions and we need to change the tactics when needed that way we can close the game down.
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Crap defense, that's our weakest link.
It is now for sure.
Warnock is just not the player he was before his injury. Luke Young the right back playing at right back isn't that great a right back, certainly not that much better than Cuellar playing there. Dunne although solid is all of a sudden error prone. Only Collins appears to be showing consistent form.
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Crap defense, that's our weakest link.
It is now for sure.
Warnock is just not the player he was before his injury. Luke Young the right back playing at right back isn't that great a right back, certainly not that much better than Cuellar playing there. Dunne although solid is all of a sudden error prone. Only Collins appears to be showing consistent form.
Dunne has been shocking all season, and Collins is clumsy and injury prone. I'd replace the both of them. Luke Young is decent but Warnock has lost the plot.
A whole new defence please Gerard!
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Luke Young the right back playing at right back isn't that great a right back, certainly not that much better than Cuellar playing there.
You might want to only whisper that bit - it'll get the natives restless!
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Luke Young the right back playing at right back isn't that great a right back, certainly not that much better than Cuellar playing there.
You might want to only whisper that bit - it'll get the natives restless!
He isn't though is he?
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To my mind no, but then I didn't see the huge problem with Cuellar at RB that others did last season.
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Cuellar is a good centre back and Young is a good right back.
Let's just keep them where they should be.
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As a club, our biggest weakness is our inability to come together and believe in ourselves. With the exception of Man U and Liverpool we are every bit as big, if not bigger than the rest of the clubs in the UK, and exceed that of most clubs across Europe. That said, we don't act it, or convey that sense of belief that on the brief occasions we've threatened greatness, we could ever maintain and build on it. We are our own worst enemy a lot of the time. If we can correct that there's no limit to what we can do.
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Crap defense, that's our weakest link.
It is now for sure.
Warnock is just not the player he was before his injury. Luke Young the right back playing at right back isn't that great a right back, certainly not that much better than Cuellar playing there. Dunne although solid is all of a sudden error prone. Only Collins appears to be showing consistent form.
Dunne has been shocking all season, and Collins is clumsy and injury prone. I'd replace the both of them. Luke Young is decent but Warnock has lost the plot.
A whole new defence please Gerard!
Why is the defence this year so much worse than last year, as much as I like Cuellar, I don't think his absence is the answer.
It's too simplistic to just get a new defence, what's wrong with working with the one we've got, we have got a much vaunted new coaching set up, and Houllier is renowned for the defensive side of the game, we need to see that in operation.
We have got an excellent left back in Warnock, but we need to understand why he is suddenly diving in for tackles, mistiming those tackles and not overlapping as much.
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We do struggle to sign good fullbacks.
Young is OK, Warnock is OK.
Is 'OK' good enough ?
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Inconsistency is everywhere right now, in that a 3-4 match winning run can see someone up in the top 4.
However, in the last 25 years (my conscious memory of AVFC) we never get the balance right between playing against good and bad teams.
When we get results against the big clubs, we then struggle against Southampton, Luton, QPR, Wigan, Fulham Stoke, Wigan, whoever. When we have the better of the division's fodder, that is when we get stuffed by the bigger teams.
We never seem to have a normal home-away performance ratio either. When we have been good away (last few seasons, 87-88) we are patchy at home. This year the home form is better but now we are shite away!
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Inconsistency.
We can go from brilliant to shit and back again, often over the course of a single game. So many times we've looked like we've finally got it right only to find another way to mess it up.
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There's a very interesting point being made about the city as a whole, and I think it can be summed up thus. Birmingham's aspect here (I will not say problem because I think it's something to be proud of) is that the city lacks an ego. It's never made a lot of noise about itself or bigged itself up. It's never sold the world a myth about itself like Liverpool: great sense of humour - based on Stan Boardman and Ken Dodd. Funny how so many people I've spoken to from the city have been such miserable gits - Newcastle: passionate and loyal support (my memories of 8,000 gates at St James in the 80s are clearly mental confusion on my part). It's just not in the Birmingham character, IME, to do that.
During the last days of standing what was the largest capacity terrace in England. The Kop gotta be...nope, The Holte End was larger than the Kop. It's just that its ego was a good deal smaller...
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Its belief, we have never recovered from the mess the club became after winning the European Cup, we had the chance then to create a legacy. Every time we have been on the verge of greatness we have come up short, so now we expect it to keep happening and guess what
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It's happened for so long, right back to the Gregory days when we'd always concede late in crucial games so the management and playing personnel has totally changed yet it still regularly happens.
Is it just a club trait like Newcastle spending millions and never ever winning anything and until recently Spurs always flattering to decieve?
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Villa's biggest weakness.... Bloody injuries!!!
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Its belief, we have never recovered from the mess the club became after winning the European Cup, we had the chance then to create a legacy. Every time we have been on the verge of greatness we have come up short, so now we expect it to keep happening and guess what
Aye.
It's a curious mix of expectation/ ambition that comes with a club this size (much as that perplexes some outside of B6 and even some ex managers of ours) and a lack of belief to the point that deep down we now expect to be disappointed.
Whenever we look like we're just about to break through we've probably already peaked. That would seem to be the lesson post early 80's.
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We never strengthen from a position of strength. When we do do well, we invariably do worse the following season.
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Capacity. Wouldnt say it was the biggest weakness but attendances below 50000 wont help with competing or keeping up financially with the likes of MU 75000, Ars 60000, Tot, 60000 if they get Olympic stadium,
Newc 50000, can also see Lpool/Evton sooner or later getting increased capacity stadiums.
Puts the club in a stronger position if they can say to future signing they'll be playing infront of 50000 fan if they come to VP.
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Its belief, we have never recovered from the mess the club became after winning the European Cup, we had the chance then to create a legacy. Every time we have been on the verge of greatness we have come up short, so now we expect it to keep happening and guess what
Aye.
It's a curious mix of expectation/ ambition that comes with a club this size (much as that perplexes some outside of B6 and even some ex managers of ours) and a lack of belief to the point that deep down we now expect to be disappointed.
Whenever we look like we're just about to break through we've probably already peaked. That would seem to be the lesson post early 80's.
"People keep saying 'When will it start to go wrong?' Why do we always expect it to go wrong? If I can change that mindset I've cracked it." Or words to that effect - John Gregory, 1998
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Capacity. Wouldnt say it was the biggest weakness but attendances below 50000 wont help with competing or keeping up financially with the likes of MU 75000, Ars 60000, Tot, 60000 if they get Olympic stadium,
Newc 50000, can also see Lpool/Evton sooner or later getting increased capacity stadiums.
Puts the club in a stronger position if they can say to future signing they'll be playing infront of 50000 fan if they come to VP.
Yet little over 16 years ago we had the biggest ground in the country (albeit when Old Trafford was being redeveloped) and finished the 1993/94 season with the highest gate in the Premiership.
It would be wrong to ignore the circumstances of that last game - it being the final hurrah for the old Holte obviously had a big impact on the attendance that day.
But still, it's quite a drop from that status to now probably only being in the top 7/8 re capacity and gates. Part of it is a lack of growth in the Prem years. Or -more accurately- not maximising growth to it's full potential, as there was growth and our average has steadily improved since 1993.
Part of it is also other clubs such as Chelsea and Newcastle coming on leaps on bounds, in the latter case just being involved at the top end of the table was enough to generate interest and demand up there, as there wasn't any trophies or tangible success to speak off. That indicates that gates can improve even without the benefit of silverware and success. Big signings, big games and a general feeling of being on the up help in that regard Our close to capacity gates for a fair chunk of the Brian Little and early JG years and more recently in the initial few years of the MON reign provided a tantalising glimpse of what we could do.
I wouldn't automatically assume that we should expect a close to 50,000 capacity as of right. But it should be a legitimate target for a club like ours.
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With regards to the Barcodes, I think they are a bit of an anomaly.
I think Newcastle had/have the advantage of the team being seen by their fans as representing their 'parochial pride'. Whether through being the only team in the city, (despite Sunderland being just down the road), or being more 'passionate' folk than those further south (clichéd I know, but the reaction to Keegan's departures/Shearer's signing etc. shows the, er, slightly unhinged football-mad inhabitants they have up there).
The coinciding with Sky's early years of loading the game with cash and Newcastle actually becoming quite good meant that when the foreign flair of Ginola, Tino Asprilla etc. ''rocked up'' - to use a h&vism, on Tyneside it just increased the fervour of a large population of top-level football starved Geordies.
Their 80's-early 90's attendances may have been a quarter or less of those who came from the Prem era onwards but watching the likes of Mickey Quinn trudge about wasn't ever going to attract the fair-weather type, which in essence is what we are talking about if we want bigger gates.
The nearly-era under Keegan gave Newcastle an astonishing amount of credit in terms of fanbase support. The mid-90s was their adrenaline-rush, which all who were present have spent the last decade trying to replicate. Mike Ashley and the other bumbling idiots in charge had the fortune to inherit a captive market that, as I said, are a bit different to most clubs. Luckily they've largely made a pig's ear out of truly utilising the advantage of being in that position.
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Back on topic, and maybe I'm just being bitter but our record of scoring crucial last minute/late goals compared to conceding them must surely be one of the worst. Not just in recent weeks, but traditionally...or certainly the last couple of decades.
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We never strengthen from a position of strength. When we do do well, we invariably do worse the following season.
This is quite true.
We could blame the chairman when Ellis was in charge, but it probably goes deeper than that. When strong only the best players will improve you and we do not have a track record of signing them. We'll get them when they're young and lose them, or sign them when they're past their peak. This may be a profile issue, as mentioned before, and we can't attract them, but it is a common theme at the club.
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The fact that we are in Birmingham is a HUGE problem.
Our city is not recognised by a the media and it is blatantly obvious that players/managers would think twice about moving to Brum. I live in Spain and travel a lot and most people have absolutely no idea where Birmingham is and almost nobody knows that Aston Villa is a Birmingham club. Mention Liverpool or Manchester however and they are much more familiar. Whenever there is someone with a Brummy accent on telly (which happens very rarely) it is immediately taken the piss out of. I really hate to say it but the city has little attraction to top players and we have suffered from that in the past. Would Van der Vaart have come to us if we were in the CL? Maybe, but I doubt it. Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea and even West Ham have in the past got players that may have come to us had we not been in Brum. It's obvious that these self proclaimed superstars will go to places that are in vogue or in the spotlight. It may sound a bit controversial but it is true, Birmingham is a city which gets hugely overlooked. The constant brushing aside of our city by almost every media organisation has a big affect on these things. You can fly from Palma in winter to every big city in the UK, but not Birmingham which creates huge problems for me when I fly back to VP each month. Players are not attracted by the prospect of moving to the Midlands and short of moving the club up the M6 or down the M1 we will always have this problem, the same can be said for our local rivals too.
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Villa's biggest weakness over the last 25+ years has been failing to capitalise on opportunites when we've looked like we could genuinely achieve something.
As for the Man U game a couple of weeks ago we threw it away because we sat back and allowed them to pass the ball about.