Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: dave.woodhall on November 15, 2010, 06:26:47 PM
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I don't want to go down the nostalgia or usual stand up/sit down argument roads, but I'd like opinions on something I've been thinking about.
Given the way football's gone since 1994, would the Holte End as it was have been doomed anyway? Or if it had stayed, how would things have been different? I can't see half of that crowd on Saturday, or any other time for that matter, standing up.
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Its about choice, and being treated as an adult dave.
Now i want to sit, preferably on the half way line.When i was younger i wanted to stand.If i was taking my kids i would want to stand behind the goal.Are we less civilised than the Germans?
Things happened in th 70s and 80s that were unacceptable, changes have been implemented, and those things would probably not happen again.We learn fron plane crashes, but don't stop air travel.
Time to bring terraces.
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Its about choice, and being treated as an adult dave.
Now i want to sit, preferably on the half way line.When i was younger i wanted to stand.If i was taking my kids i would want to stand behind the goal.Are we less civilised than the Germans?
Things happened in th 70s and 80s that were unacceptable, changes have been implemented, and those things would probably not happen again.We learn fron plane crashes, but don't stop air travel.
Time to bring terraces.
To right as well....is anyone actually trying to do anything postive in bringing back the terraces....
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Used to stand in the Holte, a treat was a seat once in a while. Now I am older I want that the other way around, sit most of the time but stand and sing as i used to :-) The atmosphere at Villa Park does not compare to the 70's/80's and a large part of that is that down to seating. Remember the days of standing when the ground was virtually full by 2.30 and the noise from the Holte was fantastic? Now everyone rushes to there seats in the last 10 mins.
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We all know why all seater stadia were introduced and at the time nobody could really argue with the decision. After seeing how safe and successful the areas in German grounds are it is completely feasible that we could return to terraces. Problem is English football doest want it! The clubs and Sky have their product exactly how they want it and it, customers paying the highest prices in Europe to watch the best league in the world (copyright SkySports).
Even if we can't go back to terraces why cant we have sections where fans can stand at their seat, then fans who want to stand all game can do so and those who want to sit all game can do so without having their view interrupted.
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I don't want to go down the nostalgia or usual stand up/sit down argument roads, but I'd like opinions on something I've been thinking about.
Given the way football's gone since 1994, would the Holte End as it was have been doomed anyway? Or if it had stayed, how would things have been different? I can't see half of that crowd on Saturday, or any other time for that matter, standing up.
Those in the Holte End who look like they would not stand would probably go back to the other stands, and the "standers" in the rest of the ground would migrate back to the Holte. Providing of course the Holte End had the cheapest ticket prices, which is not the case now. Does that make sense.
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I grew up watching from the Holte End terrace and would love to have the choice to go back to standing again.
Times have changed and I think it's about time some form of terracing was brought back. The atmosphere would increase tenfold. The Germans and other countries manage terracing so why can't we. Imagine if the lower Holte and North stand were terracing. Cater for everyone and increase capacity as well.
If the Holte was still a terrace I think it would have survived and been popular with the fans for the simple reason that fans in my age group late 30's-early 40's would have taken their kids on the Holte and those that wanted to sing etc would always go there.
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I'd love it if a standing area was reintroduced. One major problem with all seater stadia for me is that it makes it so difficult to sit/stand near the people you want to. On the odd occasion, I have family/friends come along and it's always a pain trying to get seats near mine. When I was a nipper I'd meet mates on the old Holte that I only ever saw there. I've lost touch with them all since it went all-seater. It's the flexibility as much as the atmosphere that I miss.
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They have it at some Rugby grounds, like Welford Rd, and it works great.
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Most of the Holte stands anyway!
I can see the council closing half of it one day, I really can.
I used to get letters about it all the time.
I used to love standing at the back of the Holte but I'm not sure i could these days, I used to miss so many goals as I was short, was ok when attacking north stand but 2nd half I missed so many goals, was fun though
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We played Notts County in the League Cup some years ago - we had tickets for the 'away end' with no allocation to any particular seat - you just sat where ever you wanted to. The Club could do that to the Holte and the lower North Stand. Next step could be standing in those stands, if you wish.
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Which is why have terracing at the lower Holte only then everyone catered for.
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I don't want to go down the nostalgia or usual stand up/sit down argument roads, but I'd like opinions on something I've been thinking about.
Given the way football's gone since 1994, would the Holte End as it was have been doomed anyway? Or if it had stayed, how would things have been different? I can't see half of that crowd on Saturday, or any other time for that matter, standing up.
The Holte was always a class apart as an end terrace and that's just not my claret tinted specs. Many neutrals I've spoken to over the years who attended FA Cup semis would say similar.
If I've understood the question you're looking for a specific would the Holte as was be capable of meeting the challenges of today, rather than a 'standing yay or nay' type debate.
I think it would have met the challenges of the current game quite easily. It's safety record was pretty close to impeccable and it pretty much met any new conditions laid down even before the various Safety Acts were passed.
The trade off for that would be that facilities would perhaps not be so lavish as they are in the concourses now. But providing I could buy a beer and have enough space to drink it I could live with that. The game is 90 minutes of your life, pre game and half time about 20/30 minutes combined. Plenty of time to visit spacious swank bars, coffee shops and eateries after that.
Undeniably though the expectations of football fans have changed and you can't put the genie back in the bottle.
I personally would be quite happy to have a single tier imposing Holte End if the trade off was not having the same level of creature comforts at half time and full time. I accept I might be in the minority on that one.
As for those standing on Saturday (do you mean in all parts of the ground) as to whether they would do so if there was still one designated area to do so I'm not sure. For some it's a form of rebellion I guess, sticking it to the man. Having it approved would probably kill most of the fun.
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Have a safe standing part of the ground like the Germans do - I think it's a really good idea but of course the health and safety council will deny that of course. What will the council do when there is screaming 12 year old girls who are standing up when Take That come to Villa Park?
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My early years of watching us were standing in the Holte End so i often miss the standing there, now when i take my seat i think to myself i wish it was standing because sitting is not as comfortable in my view as standing.
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If the old Holte came back it would be full to bursting every match. I know so many fans who are pissed off the way the modern game has gone over the last 15 years and not being able to stand is a massive factor that limits the amount of games they attend. I for one would go more often. It would encourage back the walk up crowd and the anticipation of the lock out!!
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Even if the Holte End were to be reverted to a all standing terrace, it would never have the same atmosphere it once had.
There was no greater site for me than coming through the 'Juveniles' turnstile and then looking up from the front of the old stand. It was truly awe inspiring.
I agree Dave, I dont think the majority would revert back to standing only. Just has I dont believe the passion for the game is the same as it was pre premier league.
Football is all to sanitised for me now.
Nothing is spontaneous anymore. We have to pre-book a ticket, sit only where tickets are still left available.
How good were the days when you could rock up at the ground, pay at the turnstile and meet and stand with you mate on the Holte End, regardless from which gate you both entered.
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I would quite happily stand up if the option wre available again.
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It'll never happen.
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It'll never happen.
Almost certainly not, and if it did it wouldn't be a recreation of the surging, seething Holte of old. It would be a safe, sanitised version of standing, limited numbers and plenty of warnings about an immediate shutdown should just one thing go wrong.
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Anyone who thinks the atmosphere wouldn't be better if the lower Holte was standing is deluded. Look at all the best atmospheres in recent years, the fans in the Holte have been stood, Tranmere, Blues games, Bolton semi final, Blackburn semi final, and it shows the demand is there for standing. The Holte would be packed and buzzing every week with terracing because it would be new to a lot of people. And it works safely in Germany so why not here? Borrusia Dortmund have got a huge stand behind their goal, it's a terrace and holds about 25,000! And don't give me the line about Hillsbrough, that was the police's fault and the fences at the front, nothing to do with terracing.
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I don't want to go down the nostalgia or usual stand up/sit down argument roads,
And so, we went straight over the usual arguments again.
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And don't give me the line about Hillsbrough, that was the police's fault and the fences at the front, nothing to do with terracing.
Don't go there.
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Would the old Holte have survived and had a place in this day and age - absolutely.
We supporters have been dictated to by the FA, and manipulated/buggered about by Sky for so long we just accept it now. Since its inception Sky have played a major part in how the premier league has developed and have a big say due to the money they have pumped in.
We have suffered price hikes/kick offs moved to stupid times/the Sky 4 etc.
We are the fee paying supporters who want to watch football live at the ground and support our team. If we want to sit or stand, the decision should be ours. I would much rather be there in the flesh than watching on tv.
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How many of the young 'uns on here who have never stood would like terraces back? Just a thought.
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Interesting point Dave. At current prices I don't think you would get a huge clamour to stand, not enough to fill the Holte anyway. Put prices on a par with the Bundesliga standing sections say £15 a pop and you'd be in business. It might also have a knock effect on the way people think about going to the match, with more people deciding on match day as opposed to buying tickets in advance. Far easier for a group of friends to stand together rather than find a section of seats together.
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You do what you have to do. seats in all grounds mean that people will sit down, and it will attract people who want to sit down. If the norm is to stand then people will stand. Those that don't will go into the seating area. Football will attract those it sees as its target audience and seating really is neither here o there other than nostalgic preference.
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I just can't see the sort of clientele (for want of a better word) football now attracts wanting to stand up. And like it or not, many of the old standers have either been priced out or prefer to watch on TV. In fact, I think that even had the Taylor Report not included the all-seater recommendation, terraces such as the Holte would have been gone by now anyway.
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From a technical perspective, could the lower Holte be converted to a standaing area anyway ?
If the seats were removed, would the steps be too high/too low ?
I'm sure if it meant ripping it all out and replacing if so that the 'rake' (?) was right and safe , then it becomes a non starter on that point alone.
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If the old Holte was still there and the price was say £15 then I think there would be plenty of takers.
The current seating layout isn't ideal unless you are about 5'2. I have sat all round the ground and always have trouble with legroom and shoulder room. I'm 6'2 and no I'm not the same size as Barry Austin.
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I'm sure the old Holte would've had to have been cut into partitions to stop the sideways sways of the crowd. The floodlight pylon grounding right into the left side wouldn't pass muster either.
I do wonder how many of those who long for the old days would have actually migrated to the sides as the rigours of running up and down 15-20 steps, whenever the play moved into the near half of the pitch, took their toll week in week out?
I have a theory that some of the lack of atmosphere from the new Holte could be due to blokes still clinging onto their seats in the upper when years ago they would've first moved down to the lowest sunken walkway and then to a different stand - leaving just young rowdy lads at the back? (controversial, and probably the worst forum to post such an opinion too!)
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Try telling a young kid whose only known the comfort (if that's the right word) of sitting at games that from now on he/she has got to stand up all game like we used to. It's not so easy holding and eating a giant coke, burger and chips when you're standing. And besides, doesn't the 10 minute walk from the car count as enough exercise to warrant two hours sitting on their backside!
I would love to see the German model adopted, but even if our authorities ever allowed it the numbers would be so restricted it just wouldn't have the same feel, or appeal.
Sadly, it's now part of a bygone era, and like with most things in life that get brought back because we miss them (Gordon Cowans excepted) - it's never the same again.
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If the demand isn't there then why do we stand at every away game? Why do the lower North stand all stand for big games? Why do the Holte stand for big games?
The kids, old folk etc who want to sit simply move and those that want to stand go in the standing section, it would be rammed every week and the atmosphere would be ten times better than the shit atmosphere at VP these days.
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Here we go again.
Well, for a start, you haven't got much choice in standing at an away game. It doesn't take many people to stand to effectively force the rest of the fans to stand.
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for anyone interested here's a link to the FSF (football supporters federation) safe standing campaign
http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/safestanding.php
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I just can't see the sort of clientele (for want of a better word) football now attracts wanting to stand up. And like it or not, many of the old standers have either been priced out or prefer to watch on TV. In fact, I think that even had the Taylor Report not included the all-seater recommendation, terraces such as the Holte would have been gone by now anyway.
When you think of the costs involved for most clubs to modernise or completely rebuild stands I don't think they'd have taken that kind of financial hit unless they absolutely had to.
A 45,000 VP as was (with the new Witton) would have perfectly met the demands of today so why would the club have incurred any greater expense than they absolutely had to? You remember who our chairman was at the time.
That would have been mirrored up and down the country. I think only a few clubs would have felt the need to expand, Man U with the wave of demand they encountered post 1993 and Arsenal, who were landlocked at Highbury. Ergo standing would have been prevalent at most grounds, save some of the more unsavoury venues such as at Millwall and the B-lose. Those would have needed to be all seater to keep tabs on the mutants via CCTV.
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When you think of the costs involved for most clubs to modernise or completely rebuild stands I don't think they'd have taken that kind of financial hit unless they absolutely had to.
A 45,000 VP as was (with the new Witton) would have perfectly met the demands of today so why would the club have incurred any greater expense than they absolutely had to? You remember who our chairman was at the time.
That would have been mirrored up and down the country. I think only a few clubs would have felt the need to expand, Man U with the wave of demand they encountered post 1993 and Arsenal, who were landlocked at Highbury. Ergo standing would have been prevalent at most grounds, save some of the more unsavoury venues such as at Millwall and the B-lose. Those would have needed to be all seater to keep tabs on the mutants via CCTV.
Most, if not all, of the cost came from the Football Trust.
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Simon Inglis' excellent Football Grounds of Great Britain details that a lot of clubs did receive funding from the Trust. But nowhere near close to covering most or all costs involved. Many clubs faced a significant financial burden, a burden that impacted on their ability to move forward on the pitch.
Why would the Football Trust dish out large sums anyway if they didn't feel it was absolutely necessary?
A knock on effect is that grounds now have better comfort and facilities but I don't think that was the primary goal. The primary focus was safety, in the climate of a fear of a repeat of the events of April 89. But as stands were being gutted and rebuilt, what harm providing more eating spaces and better decor and lighting in the concourses at the same time.
A better case could/ should have been made for safe standing but few would have felt comfortable forcing the issue after Hillsborough.
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Simon Inglis' excellent Football Grounds of Great Britain details that a lot of clubs did receive funding from the Trust. But nowhere near close to covering most or all costs involved. Many clubs faced a significant financial burden, a burden that impacted on their ability to move forward on the pitch.
Why would the Football Trust dish out large sums anyway if they didn't feel it was absolutely necessary?
A knock on effect is that grounds now have better comfort and facilities but I don't think that was the primary goal. The primary focus was safety, in the climate of a fear of a repeat of the events of April 89. But as stands were being gutted and rebuilt, what harm providing more eating spaces and better decor and lighting in the concourses at the same time.
A better case could/ should have been made for safe standing but few would have felt comfortable forcing the issue after Hillsborough.
That was what they were there for - to distribute the money they had (which in the pre-Lottery days was a lot). There were two main reasons for the all-seater aspect of the Taylor Report. The main one was the fear of another Hillsborough, but it was also seen as a sop to the government after the Report spoke out against identity cards and gave them the get-out for abandoning the idea. It's a moot point whether the game became gentrified because of all-seaters or whether the new football fans drove demand, but it's absolutely certain that the make up of modern crowds is totally different to those pre-1994 and that's a point usually missed by anyone who says terraces would be packed.
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Why is the argument that it wouldn't be like it used to be an argument against doing it atall?
If standing returned, of course it wouldn't be a giant seething mass of people any more. It also wouldn't be as easy to decide to go at the last minute and still be able to meet up with your mates if they brought it back now. It would be safer because it would be divided into small sections - your space may even be ticketed in a similar way to seating. These are things that make it safer - and they are the things that the police won't want to let go of, because they help them to keep track of you. If standing returned - it wouldn't be the same.
However - even with these changes from the way it used to be - there is still a will to stand. Come the big games, people still stand, because, as even the anti-standing rules acknowledge, excitement draws people to their feet....and the atmosphere builds more easily with people on their feet because people feel they can blend into the crowd when they sing and shout.
Apart from this - the pro standing argument that everyone always misses is that come mid winter - it's so much warmer! Sitting is bloody freezing sometimes!
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Given the way football's gone since 1994, would the Holte End as it was have been doomed anyway? Or if it had stayed, how would things have been different? I can't see half of that crowd on Saturday, or any other time for that matter, standing up.
Going back to Dave's original question... YES the Holte would have been doomed anyway. Capacity had been greatly reduced from when 28,000 used to pack in there... I think it was down to about 20,000 at the end (might be wrong). The catering/toilets etc would not have coped with the expectations of a modern day football crowd, and from what I recall there wasn't really much more that could have been done with the old structure to drastically improve that part of things.
So even if the capacity hadn't then been reduced further by the authorities, fans wouldn't have put up with insufficient facilities there when they could have the comfort of other areas of the ground, so the Holte would probably have lost its appeal to many, the crowd would have thinned out and it just wouldn't have been the same.
Our selective memories remind us of the Holte at its best, but let's not forget that during the mid 80s football slump, and crowds of 15-20,000, there was room to chase West Ham fans through it without knocking a cup of bovril out of someone's clutches.
The future?
If all the seats were taken out of the lower Holte to allow for standing, with current safety laws they'd hardly allow it to be rammed like the old days. The amenities/exits etc are designed for its current capacity so we'd just have a load of people in the middle/back squashed together and space everywhere else.
To me the most logical answer is keep the seats as they are and allow people to stand if they want to. If I buy a ticket for a gig at the NIA it says on it that "people around you may stand" - in other words don't moan if the row in front decide to stand up and dance as that's all part of being at a gig. Why can't a designated area of a football ground, such as lower Holte, just have that printed on its tickets?
And tell us this Birmingham Council - how come people can stand in seated areas of the NIA (where the seated structure is not as solid as Villa Park), drink, dance and enjoy themselves - but can't at Villa or the Sty?
Sorry drifted off onto another forum there...
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It's a moot point whether the game became gentrified because of all-seaters or whether the new football fans drove demand, but it's absolutely certain that the make up of modern crowds is totally different to those pre-1994 and that's a point usually missed by anyone who says terraces would be packed.
Agreed.
You can't put the genie back in the bottle.
I do think that a limited area of safe standing could work -or at the very least should be explored. But If we get between 35/40000 for most games now I don't think half of that number (the capacity of the old Holte in other words) would be happy standing. The expectations of supporters and what they demand from the full authentic matchday experience re catering, facilities and the like give a fairly good indication in that regard. You only have to look on the General Krulak thread and the moans about pie selection, types of coffee and lack of homemade crinkle cut chips to see that.
That's as things stand (non pun intended) now though.
Had things remained the same supporters would have known no different. Other areas of the ground would have improved without question, with the growth of popularity in the game, corporates and so on. But the Holte would have been probably been very similar now to the one in 1994 -save for perhaps a new roof using more modern methods. Probably cantilevered or goal post as it is now, instead of the four posts propping up the old roof and dodgy extension.
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I miss taking my beer crate down ;-)
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Why is the argument that it wouldn't be like it used to be an argument against doing it atall?
If standing returned, of course it wouldn't be a giant seething mass of people any more. It also wouldn't be as easy to decide to go at the last minute and still be able to meet up with your mates if they brought it back now. It would be safer because it would be divided into small sections - your space may even be ticketed in a similar way to seating. These are things that make it safer - and they are the things that the police won't want to let go of, because they help them to keep track of you. If standing returned - it wouldn't be the same.
However - even with these changes from the way it used to be - there is still a will to stand. Come the big games, people still stand, because, as even the anti-standing rules acknowledge, excitement draws people to their feet....and the atmosphere builds more easily with people on their feet because people feel they can blend into the crowd when they sing and shout.
Apart from this - the pro standing argument that everyone always misses is that come mid winter - it's so much warmer! Sitting is bloody freezing sometimes!
Great post amfy.
Agree with all of that.
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Decent thread.
My first and last standing game was The Holte's Last Stand. My feet didn't touch the ground for the whole of the second half. It was one of the most memorable experiences of my life. Truly wonderful.
I thought for many years that I would prefer to stands. Recently, not so much.
I'm getting a bit older. I notice that my tolerance for other people in general seems to be diminishing. Do I want to spend a game on a stand crammed in with 20,000 others? I don't think I do. I like a bit of personal space. I'm not all that fussed about singing and shouting like I used to be.
Huh. I'm getting a bit depressed so I'll stop now. Modern football is rubbish. I don't care that much any more.
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i think that there is an arguement to sugest that the Holte would not have remained as a standing terrace only, The Stretford end went to seating the upper tier long before all seaters were introduced. I do think that a tier of standing would work though, If it works in Germany then it would work here.
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As Im a bit older now I must say that I probably prefer my seat.
As it is when I get home from the game, I usually want to sit down and rest (sometimes in a darkened room, alone, with the door locked).
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Don Foster MP, former Liberal Democrats sports spokesman, has launched a bid to allow safe standing to be introduced into football grounds in England and Wales.
http://www.fsf.org.uk/news/Safe-Standing-Bill-launched-in-Parliament.php