Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Concrete John on October 25, 2010, 09:52:45 AM
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There seems to be a general acceptance that this is a 'transitional season' and we'll finish lower than 6th, but that that is understandable and OK. But at what point does it go from 'transitional' to just plain bad?
We can show all the signs of improvement we like and address some of the issues left by Martin, yet if we end up say 15th I'm sure most would find that unacceptable given the strength of the squad and, presumably, the funds Houllier will have available in January.
So, what final league position would prompt you to being concerned? And for the sake of simplicity, lets ignore the cups in this.
Personally, I think we're good enough to finish 8th and anything lower is under achieving.
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7th. Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal are way ahead of us. I can't see us finishing above Man City and Spurs and have a sneaky feeling someone else might fluke it into 6th (not Albion).
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To be honest, as long as we get the club ready to face the next decade, with better scouting, coaching and so on I dont really mind. I dont think we'll finish lower table and I accepted months ago that this season would be transitional.
As long as we make the transition to this new possession, fluent and tactical based style and get the players in we need to make best use of it, which I think will happen in January and the summer, I'm O.K with it all.
There's going to be a few hiccups, its sometimes not going to click but gradually it will fall into place. It will be a measured, purposeful overhaul
The nucleus of a very good young squad is there with a fair bit more to come and a great academy set up and a well connected manager with form for installing tremendous infrastructure. There's plenty to look forward to if one can be patient.
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8th - 10th.
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We finished 6th, 6th and 6th under Martin O'Neill and people on this Forum called for him to leave. For me if we finish below 6th it will show people were wrong to call for his head.
Lower than 6th is regression surely? If we finish above 6th I will be the first to say I was wrong to criticise those calling for MON's head, deal?
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Probably 8th-9th, but won't really matter if we can bag a cup.
The League cup is very gettable.
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Given what went on in the summer, seventh or eighth will be acceptable provided some of the young players start looking promising and the football is better.
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We finished 6th, 6th and 6th under Martin O'Neill and people on this Forum called for him to leave. For me if we finish below 6th it will show people were wrong to call for his head.
Lower than 6th is regression surely? If we finish above 6th I will be the first to say I was wrong to criticise those calling for MON's head, deal?
that's big of you...
you miss the wider point completely. MON threw millions on average players on big wages to tread water and it was unsustainable.
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I agree that this season will be a transitional one, I didn't really get too upset saturday either, I think we'll have a good, bad and indifferent results.
The important thing is that we move in the right way
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What Mazrim says. Continued patience is the important thing although a win at the weekend will make that easier
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I think one way or another, we need to quality for Europe again.
Obviously we'll be out before August is over but still.
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Seventh. There really is no excuse given the squad we have and the fact we'll probably bring in a player or two in January. I think we'll be fighting it out with Liverpool for sixth place. There's not really anybody else out there with the possible exception of Everton that will threaten us. As good as the Baggies are at the moment, I just can't see them going the distance given their squad size. I'm expecting us to have a great second half of the season, finishing strongly.
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When you say how low can we go, do you mean how low do we go before calling for the manager to be sacked ?
This sounds like the sort of debate crappy Talksport does.
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We need to pick up some more wins on our travels, but provided we don't lose the derbies and win the League Cup I'll take as low as 11th-13th.
As has been said, I can accept a season of transition provided it is exactly that: a season.
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If we don't make 2 QUALITY signings 9th
If we do, 7th
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When you say how low can we go, do you mean how low do we go before calling for the manager to be sacked ?
This sounds like the sort of debate crappy Talksport does.
Nothing so dramatic.
As I said in the post above, how low can we go before we stop using the excuse of a transitional season and say we've been crap and not done as well as we should have given the resources, current squad and January funds, available.
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This season's key challenges for me are: (i) making good use of the assets available to us (RL's dosh, the current first-team and fringe players, developing the assets in the youff set-up) and (ii) establishing the platform for a future that includes better scouting and a more attractive destination-club for the top-echelon players that we perhaps have not attracted in the past.
If we can address these issues during the course of this season and maintain a upper-mid table position then that'll be progress.
Right now the challenge on the pitch is scoring goals! - how do we address that?!
Re the comment above from Lovejoy about 6th and MON: it is hghly debatable that we'd be shooting for 6th with MON in charge - he was a spent force, he'd taken us as far as he could and I think we'd be looking at 12th / 13th under him ... not much different than likely now (but with the difference that we can make the sort of progress outlined above re addressing the key challenges).
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Our away form is very poor. We haven't really played anyone of note (maybe Spurs). We have become easy to beat away from home. Whatever you say about MON, we were always hard to beat on our travels when he was in charge.
I can see a low fnish this year - may be 12th or 13th. God knows why Dunne is infront of Cuellar at the moment. Houllier seems to be applying similar treatment to Carlos as MON did with NRC, Luke Young etc.
Who will be the full-backs against Blues? I think Luke Young is out injured and Warnock will be banned after picking up 5 yellow cards.
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We all know it was really crap what MON did to us. He walked out at a time when we were about to lose possibly our best player and it was clear that some senior players were nearing the end of their careers with villa.
As I see it, the squad needs rebuilding. It can rebuilt around the likes of Albrighton, Gabby, Ireland, Downing and possibly Reo-Coker and maybe Clark long-term. The signs haven't been great from Dunne, it looks like GH doesn't fancy Cueller and we'll get a few seasons out of Luke Young and Collins for sure while we are in transition. Friedal can't go on forever so that's somethign that will need looking at in the next year or two and we will need a top class finisher.
All in all, there's an awful lot of work to be done and staying in the top ten while it's done will ne necessary if we're to push on after the transition! You might notice I haven't mentioned Ashley Young. On another thread I said we should do whatever it takes to keep him. I am not sure we can afford to have both Ashley and Ireland in the team and would rather we cashed in on Ireland than Ash. That said, the reality of football suggests it'll be Ash we'll be forced to do without which quite frankly is a kick in the nuts.
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it is hghly debatable that we'd be shooting for 6th with MON in charge - he was a spent force, he'd taken us as far as he could and I think we'd be looking at 12th / 13th under him
It's not what this thread is supposed to be about, but can I just say that I 100% do not agree with that!
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it is hghly debatable that we'd be shooting for 6th with MON in charge - he was a spent force, he'd taken us as far as he could and I think we'd be looking at 12th / 13th under him
It's not what this thread is supposed to be about, but can I just say that I 100% do not agree with that!
Fair enough John.
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it is hghly debatable that we'd be shooting for 6th with MON in charge - he was a spent force, he'd taken us as far as he could and I think we'd be looking at 12th / 13th under him
It's not what this thread is supposed to be about, but can I just say that I 100% do not agree with that!
Fair enough John.
That's a big call. We had 6th, 6th and 6th with two Wembley appearances but with a Milner for Ireland swap you think we'd drop to 12th/13th. Clearly all subjective but I think you hatred of the man is clouding your objectivity.
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Can we go, or will we go?
I reckon we'll finish 7th or 8th. Unlikely it will be the usual season of two halves, so although we haven't had a great 1st half to the season so far, I'm hoping we won't hit the wall after new years as we have done the last few seasons.
Not expecting any massive signings in Jan and looks as if we can put a decent side out most weeks with the players we have, so 7/8th is realistic as far as I'm concerned.
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As many pre-season posts said, I'm happy to finish mid-table this season.
After O'Neill walking out, getting only Ireland in (after losing our best asset from last season), and the great introduction of many younger/fringe players, I'll be happy.
Let's face it ... Albrighton is a starting player now. He's done extremely well this season. Under O'Neill, he wouldn't get second chance. Same with players like L. Young, Clark, Beye, who didn't even get close to breaking the first team.
Although I'm saying that, I think with GH behind the wheel, a few quid to spend in January (FYI, I'm not talking £20m, maybe a handful to get a new striker/defender/long-term Petrov replacement), and a major confidence boost of progressing in the cup(s), I think we can quite easily get 6th again.
As long as we finish above WBA then I'll be happy, too! I couldn't stand a whole summer of the missus gloating about how they're the best Midlands club. She won't shuttup already, and we're only 9 games in.
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The worrying thing is that we've only played one really good team so far. Four defeats against very average sides seems to indicate that a mid table finish is the best we can hope for.
However, if we can pick up enough points to stay in the top half before January and then sign some forward players, there's no reason why we can't push for top six again. Getting players in is easier said than done though isn't it?
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it is hghly debatable that we'd be shooting for 6th with MON in charge - he was a spent force, he'd taken us as far as he could and I think we'd be looking at 12th / 13th under him
It's not what this thread is supposed to be about, but can I just say that I 100% do not agree with that!
Fair enough John.
That's a big call. We had 6th, 6th and 6th with two Wembley appearances but with a Milner for Ireland swap you think we'd drop to 12th/13th. Clearly all subjective but I think you hatred of the man is clouding your objectivity.
Hatred? - hardly! you said it, not me. FWIW, I was a big fan of MON but feel that he was reaching his sell-by date ... and I do think that the manner of his departure was both spiteful and vindictive (words I've used on other threads consistently)
The point I was trying to make is this: whilst the achievements of the last three-four seasons are good - and last season we did do well , with the two Wembley appearances - nothing stays the same. Relatively, I think we were bound to struggle, compared to our peers, with the loss of Milner and Barry (over two seasons) without similar or better players. Many of our peers have improved their squads.
This season would have been tough for MON; we'd have almost-certainly gone backwards simply because we have not kept pace with the competition.
That's my view.
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We finished 6th, 6th and 6th under Martin O'Neill and people on this Forum called for him to leave. For me if we finish below 6th it will show people were wrong to call for his head.
Lower than 6th is regression surely? If we finish above 6th I will be the first to say I was wrong to criticise those calling for MON's head, deal?
That's wrong on so many levels.
MON had been here four years, had one of the most supportive owners in the league backing him over that period and had built the squad and team to his own preferences.
He then flounced off a week before the start of the season, leaving the club to scrabble around for a new manager (whilst the transfer window closed), who eventually took over a few weeks into the season and is now having to start from scratch - get to know the squad, get his coaching techniques in place, start to build things his way.
It is grossly unfair to suggest that anything less than last season's achievement is regression and therefore people were wrong to criticise MON.
Also, what people thought or said about MON doesn't really come into creating the situation we have this season - he wasn't sacked, he wasn't pushed out by supporters, he left - his choice, at a time he selected.
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I think we will finish between 8th and 10th but hopefully win a cup
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The worrying thing is that we've only played one really good team so far. Four defeats against very average sides seems to indicate that a mid table finish is the best we can hope for.
Spurs = good team away from home
Chelsea = best team in the country at home
Stoke = very difficult place to go and get anything.
Wolves away = not the easiest place to go, but we won.
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Agree Paulie
didn't see the spurs match, but by all accounts we were pretty good until Heskey went off injured, and yes we lost, but we didn't exactly get battered. 2-1 at Spurs isn't a massive fail.
0-0 against Chelsea. Not sure what others think, but we had the chances to win that one. And yes, they could and should have scored at the end with that Anelka header, but they didn't.
Wolves was a solid performance, pretty good first half, up against it second half. Away win.
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League cup would be a big priority for me and top 8 if possible- I dint think houllier can be blamed whatever happens this season , it's o neills squad and has been crying out for a top striker for the last 4 yrs - houllier will address things in the summer and next season we will be much better!
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I would be very disappointed if we finished lower than eighth but will take a transitional season after the goings on of the summer.
Next year will be the time to judge Houllier.
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it matters little to me where we ultimately finish, I just know that I have been more excited at the thought of going down the Villa this year than I was in the preceding 2 seasons. And for those that go on about this 6th-6th-6th-regression mantra, its ridiculous. The league, and the comparative strengths of the teams in it, is not a static measurement. Even with MON we were heading for a worse season than I honestly think we'll have now. And to talk about our current away record is a little disingenuous too, since Houllier has had barely 5 games to work with the team, and needs more time and at least 2 transfer windows. What improvement we have seen (and it has been in performance, introduction of squad players and youth, and chances created rather than results for the most part) is great, and as Mazrim's excellent post on page one of this thread points out, makes for a really optimistic future.
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I dint think houllier can be blamed whatever happens this season
I think he can. He gets some room due to being in late, not being able to sign his own players, other than the limited January window, and needing time to get his ideas and style across. But with the squad he has, largely the one that finished 6th last season, 8th is the requirement, IMO.
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League cup would be a big priority for me and top 8 if possible- I dint think houllier can be blamed whatever happens this season
I disagree to an extent. It may be O'Neil's squad but it's still a bloody good bunch of players he's got to work with.
I'm not expecting a top 4 finish, but there's no reason with the squad we've got we can't finish Top 6.
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Obviously the higher the better but I think it's less important where we finish this season than where we finish next season.
Having said that, if we do take a backward step this season I think Houllier will have his work cut out trying to persuade one or two of our players to stay.
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I reckon comfortably top half of the table with no signings. I think we can easily finish top 6 with a couple of strong signings in January. We will continue to get steadily better as the season goes on.
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We could finish top 6, but I wouldnt give the manager any grief until he's had at least 2 windows. That would be unfair.
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I would be surprised if the top 5 last season are not the same 5 this season - and I see villa Liverpool and everton battling for 6th to 8th- equally I don't think we would have finished in the top 5 under o neill if he had stayed- we need a top striker and midfielder as top priority and houllier must given at least until the end of next season before judging him.
We have lost our best player in milner and been rocked by injuries so far with gabby, petrov and delph all being out a while , besides others , the style of play is improving and I look forward to a very good era under houllier.
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I think we will finish 9th or 10th i hope i am wrong but as long as we see improvement on the pitch and off it i dont mind like most fan's on here we can wait untill at least two transfer window's then we can see were we are at.
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I disagree to an extent. It may be O'Neil's squad but it's still a bloody good bunch of players he's got to work with.
It is ?
So good that with a few injuries to key players and GH is struggling to find genuine alternatives.
Look at Saturdays picks, Beye, Coker, Sidwell, Albrighton to say nowt of the injured Young were all unusable according to Mon, yet they represent the basis of the team atm. Imagine Mon still in charge and the team without those 5 and perhaps Ireland.
Laughable, just as the premise that anything lower than 6th is a failure.
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The worrying thing is that we've only played one really good team so far. Four defeats against very average sides seems to indicate that a mid table finish is the best we can hope for.
Spurs = good team away from home
Chelsea = best team in the country at home
Stoke = very difficult place to go and get anything.
Wolves away = not the easiest place to go, but we won.
I'll give you Spurs, but Stoke and Wolves? Nah.
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I will be disappointed if we fail to get into the Europa League next year. Pretty ironic that considering the disdain we have treated it with over the last few years.
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I will be disappointed if we fail to get into the Europa League next year. Pretty ironic that considering the disdain we have treated it with over the last few years.
Europe has been a complete waste of time, the only highlight was beating Ajax
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I've voted and believe that we'll finish about 9th or 10th. The only fear is finishing below Bloes, altho' TheEgoHasLanded has bet me a fiver that Villa will finish above Bloes, and I think (fear) otherwise.
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I'm amazed 11 people would take 6 or 7 as a minimum this season,considering the squad is weaker than past seasons,our luck looks like its running out with injuries and we probably wont make any major signings till the summer.
I'd take mid table as long as the football improved and some youngsters got 15 games or so under their belts. I think we need to get use to a few more of saturdays results this season,but hopefully come back stronger next season.
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I'm amazed 11 people would take 6 or 7 as a minimum this season,considering the squad is weaker than past seasons,our luck looks like its running out with injuries and we probably wont make any major signings till the summer.
I'd take mid table as long as the football improved and some youngsters got 15 games or so under their belts. I think we need to get use to a few more of saturdays results this season,but hopefully come back stronger next season.
I agree. In as far as there exists such a thing as a transitional season, then this is surely it for us.
Manager leaving 5 days before the start of the season, lack of preparation and fitness, losing your best player, new manager parachuted in who has not been involved in the PL for a good while, a bunch of good young players who need to get playing time in the first team are all factors.
The board have done enough up to now to deserve our patience. We might have to drop back a little before renewing our progress. More important than ultimate league position which can be ground out are some exciting performances showing what might be possible.
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Agree with a lot of what's been said so far. Transitional season this is and I'm more concerned we start to show a bit more nous in the transfer market and have a team that is capable of some better football. Most of all I want to see the club buy a goal scorer. It's been far too long!
But, this squad minus Miliner finished 6th last season. Anything lower than 8th and we've been overtaken by somebody like Blues, Albion or somebody like Bolton and that is unacceptable regardless of O Neill leaving when he did.
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we have had a rough time with injurys (now petrov).
a loss of form of some ever presents Dunne Warnock Carew. A new playing style, fitness and training regime.
We need to guard against a real slump so a couple of wins would come in handy.
If we can be in the top 10 and see the squad being used and tested then fine. I think there will be a big shake up in the summer
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BASS!
How low can you go?
Sorry, i've been dying to do that.
Please carry on.
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Death Row what a brother know!
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Other than Milner we have the same players who finished 6th last season, got to a cup final and a the semi in another. If, as we're told, we have money to spend in January to improve the squad then anything less than 6th will be a disappointment. That's not to say I'll be getting my knickers in a twist if we finish 8th but I don't see any reason to downgrade our expectations.
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7th.
I think after the shit from the start of this season I'm almost willing to write this season off (within reason).
Next season will be the one to watch.
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So Chris the manager quitting when he did leaving a poorly prepared side, injuries to Gabby and now Petrov, the new man only having less time with the tean than in a decent pre season has no effect?
I bet if the managers initals were Mon not GH you'd think differently :)
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Death Row what a brother know!
Once again back is the incredible....
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So Chris the manager quitting when he did leaving a poorly prepared side, injuries to Gabby and now Petrov, the new man only having less time with the tean than in a decent pre season has no effect?
Those are excuses not reasons. There aren't 6 better teams than us in the division and we're told that there is money to spend in January and we have Gabby to come back soon.
If we finish lower then the PLAYERS will have under achieved.
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Depends on what happens in January.
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8th is where I've pitched my tent ..............
The way in which players are being coached by Sid & GMac will take
time to gel...........we can't expect miracles overnight BUT I am expecting
the arrival of a proven goal scorer in January as a minimum
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I'd expect 7th or 8th, but if we get the right couple of players in 5th or above is still attainable. I think there are a lot of sides who are much of a muchness. I will take moving backwards a step though if it makes us move forward several steps in future.
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The league's crap so even though it's a transitional year I don't see us below 8th. I'd be pretty disappointed with anything below that.
I still think we can finish as high as 5th.
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The league's crap so even though it's a transitional year I don't see us below 8th. I'd be pretty disappointed with anything below that.
I still think we can finish as high as 5th.
I admire your optimism,but at the minute I can see 6 squads that are better than ours,and two other teams have goalscorers(Bent and Torres)who could score more league goals than our forwards put together. That's the big worry for me at this point is where are the goals gonna come from. Gabby needs to hit the ground running,but it could take him a month or so to find form as he's had injuries since the summer.
Maybe GH can unearth someone from Europe who can take the league by storm in January,but I think thats more likely to happen in the summer.
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As good as Spurs's squad is, results like losing at home to Wigan and away to West Ham indicate to me as long as they're in the champions league they'll continue to drop plenty of points so I'd expect us to be in touch with them for most of the season.
A lot of these teams like Sunderland, Bolton etc haven't actually won that many games, just so many draws in the league so everyone's bunched together.
I think Everton have a much better chance than Liverpool of being in the top 6.
I think we'll remain inconsistant up to the new year but having seen our run of home games in 2011 I expect a much stronger second half of the season.
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Europe has been a complete waste of time, the only highlight was beating Ajax
Difference is that GH will take it more seriously and has more epxerienc ein Europe than MON. This is the season to make a Euro slot, precisely because we have a manager who might actualy go for it. And that has to be good from a profile and player-attraction perspective.
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I said at the start of the season that I'd be happy with mid-table, so long as we played a few more of the youngsters. I'd be happy with about 13th and a good cup run.
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Top ten.
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I can see 6 squads that are better than ours
Out of interest, who?
Chelsea, Man U, Arsenal, Spurs and Man City for me do, but after that I think we're pretty much as good as this league has to offer!
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6th to 8th for me, I'm an optimist. But then I say we can virtually write off chance of top four. We have our chances for the last two seasons.
Winning one pot on the way to 6th/8th would be nice though.
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8th seems realistic for us after selling our best player and still never getting a striker in. Hopefully next summer gerard will be given a wedge of cash ot overhaul the squad and get some quality in.
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Out of interest, who?
Chelsea, Man U, Arsenal, Spurs and Man City for me do, but after that I think we're pretty much as good as this league has to offer!
2 injuries to Gabby and Petrov and none of us let alone GH can find a decent striker to score any goals, or a decent in form midfield player who has more than 5 sub appearances in the last 2 seasons.
That's a good squad ?
Where did O'Neill spend the money, especially as at the moment the first 11 includes Beye, Ireland, Coker, Allbrighton and now Sidwell, players who were rarely allowed to play in these marvellous years under him when we achieved the lauded heady heights of 6th.
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I agree with SoccerHQ. The league is poor and there are only a couple of sides capable of finishing above us, i.e. Everton and Liverpool. I think we’ll be in touch come January, where a couple of players will give us a boost in terms of quality and options and we’ll finish top 6 again.
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Teams like Bolton and Sunderland won't stay in the lofty positions they find themselves in.
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And Albion.
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Out of interest, who?
Chelsea, Man U, Arsenal, Spurs and Man City for me do, but after that I think we're pretty much as good as this league has to offer!
2 injuries to Gabby and Petrov and none of us let alone GH can find a decent striker to score any goals, or a decent in form midfield player who has more than 5 sub appearances in the last 2 seasons.
That's a good squad ?
Where did O'Neill spend the money, especially as at the moment the first 11 includes Beye, Ireland, Coker, Allbrighton and now Sidwell, players who were rarely allowed to play in these marvellous years under him when we achieved the lauded heady heights of 6th.
If you would like to actually move on from our previous manager, the point was who, outisde the 5 sides I mentioned, has a better squad?