Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: cdbearsfan on October 18, 2010, 04:58:14 PM
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Apparently we offered him the job in the 80s, but he turned it down as he didn't fancy working with/for Doug.
Link (http://www.sport.co.uk/news/Football/45418/Fergie_had_said_to_him_it_was_either_United_or_Barcelona.aspx)
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I may be wrong here but as I remember it he was seriously being talked about getting the job after Barton went. Now remember we we're not long european champions then and Barton had bought in good players like rideout and Steve McMahon. But we got Graham Turner instead - nice one.
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We may have become everything we've learned to hate about them, though.
A few more tropgies would have been nice, though.
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Would Ellis have given him as long to turn it around as Man U did?
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Would Ellis have given him as long to turn it around as Man U did?
I don't think so. Allied to that, I don't think he would have given Fergie the funds to build a top class side.
I'm sure Brian Clough had a similar view to Fergie's re. managing Villa. The more I think about it the more it frustrates! Oh well, those days are long gone now. Thankfully.
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Just think, eh?
Word was (in BFR's autobiography) that Graham Taylor was Bobby Charlton's first choice to when Ron was coming under pressure in 1986.
But this isn't Trading Places, this is real life.
Much as I dislike the bloke his record is close to untouchable and he has shown a priceless ability to adapt to changes in the game other the years. Rather than just stick to tried and tested methods. That alone probably accounts for a fair degree of his longevity.
No guarantees he'd have seen anything like that success with us, I'm pretty sure Herbert's policy of 'now you see it, now you don't' with transfer funds would have put paid to that.
Dunno what to make of Fergie at times, he has pretty much always played his strongest side against us whenever possible. That indicates a fair degree of respect. He also said after our 3-1 win back in 95 that a lot of his players were raw and probably weren't up to facing ' a big club like Villa.' Someone on here also had some contact with him when he was Aberdeen manager and he was apparently very complimentary about us, knowing a surprising amount of our history.
Against that, soon after the B-lose came up he said that when he was growing up SHA had always been the biggest club in Birmingham.
And he has turned hypocrisy into an art form.
So on balance, I'd still say he's a tosser.
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Apparently he turned us down. I'm sure he turned a lot of clubs down. And for all the stick we give Doug for not spending enough, Manchester United had a lot more money to give their manager than we ever could have, even in their late-eighties lowpoint.
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A fair degree of the money he spent (initially at least) was self funded via player sales. Mark Hughes to Barcelona and so on.
He also missed out on a number of first choice targets because the board wouldn't sanction the deals either because of the wages or fees. John Barnes, Terry Butcher and a few others.
United were known back then for being particularly stingy with wages, to the point that a player like Paul McGrath came here and received a pretty substantial pay increase.
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If if's and buts were candy and...
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It's a case of what could have been, he his still a twat though.
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He is not that good. I would have had more respect for him if he had left Utd and taken say us, Spurs or Everton to a PL title. Not as good as Cloughie or many Euro coaches who have achieved great success with mutiple clubs.
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He is not that good. I would have had more respect for him if he had left Utd and taken say us, Spurs or Everton to a PL title. Not as good as Cloughie or many Euro coaches who have achieved great success with mutiple clubs.
Clough achieved serious, trophy-winning success, with two clubs. So has Ferguson.
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Even if Fergie had joined us you can bet he wouldn't have stuck around for anything like as long as at United - 4 years max.
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Not many Villa managers last more than four years.
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He is not that good. I would have had more respect for him if he had left Utd and taken say us, Spurs or Everton to a PL title. Not as good as Cloughie or many Euro coaches who have achieved great success with mutiple clubs.
It's generally quite hard to have success with multiple clubs if you stay at the same place for over 20 years.
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He is not that good. I would have had more respect for him if he had left Utd and taken say us, Spurs or Everton to a PL title. Not as good as Cloughie or many Euro coaches who have achieved great success with mutiple clubs.
It's generally quite hard to have success with multiple clubs if you stay at the same place for over 20 years.
Whilst having pretty much continual success.
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He is not that good. I would have had more respect for him if he had left Utd and taken say us, Spurs or Everton to a PL title. Not as good as Cloughie or many Euro coaches who have achieved great success with mutiple clubs.
Out of interest, would you consider him "not that good" if he had joined Villa and won what he has won at the mancs?
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Has he won the Peace Cup though?
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Has he won the Peace Cup though?
Peace Sells... But Who's Buying?
Heard he's a Megadeth fan.
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despite dougs many failings, he did pretty well picking managers. O'leary is probably the only one I really took a dislike to.
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He is not that good. I would have had more respect for him if he had left Utd and taken say us, Spurs or Everton to a PL title. Not as good as Cloughie or many Euro coaches who have achieved great success with mutiple clubs.
I can't believe I'm defending Fergie, but here goes:
He broke the Glasgow duopoly when he was at Aberdeen. An incredible achievement.
Won more European trophies than Clough, with more teams.
Hate him, by all means, but don't re-write his history
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Totally agree Chico.
We may not like him (personally, i've never had too much of a problem with Fergie, unlike Wenger) but you cannot argue with Fergie's record as a Manager. Quite simply, he is the most outstanding British Manager of a generation, maybe the best ever.
To say that he's 'not all that good' is an astonishing statement.
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I think he's one of the biggest twats in the history of the game, but he's also one of the greatest managers in the history of the game.
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Man U, in my opinion were very close to getting rid of Taggart. Way back in 1990 I was up at Old Trafford to watch Villa. It was the last game before xmas and Venglos was the manager.
Gary Pallister had been signed from Boro and was scoring own goals for fun. Lo and behold thanks to him we went in 1-0 at half time. At the start of the second half Taggart emerges from the tunnel - the PA announces that it's his birthday new years eve, believe it or not, boos rained down from the crowd.
The second half was a siege. Mark Hughes scoring to make it a final score 1-1.
Trying to get out of Manchester was a nightmare, but listening to the radio on the way home a certain former manager Tommy Docherty slated our centre forward stating he should never be a professional footballer.
Taggart won the FA Cup that season and the rest is history. By the way our 'slated' centre forward that day..... a young Dwight Yorke !!!!!!
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despite dougs many failings, he did pretty well picking managers. O'leary is probably the only one I really took a dislike to.
McNiel Turner Venglos Oleary ?
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McNiel Turner Venglos Oleary
I don't think that's very fair on Venglos
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"He's not that good", quote of the season so far. To add Chico's comments, he's also built 3 teams over the years as ManUre, big names has gone but he's always kept them at the top for the last 18 years, even if he is a prick, he's won mor silverware than anyone else.
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Man U, in my opinion were very close to getting rid of Taggart. Way back in 1990 I was up at Old Trafford to watch Villa. It was the last game before xmas and Venglos was the manager.
Gary Pallister had been signed from Boro and was scoring own goals for fun. Lo and behold thanks to him we went in 1-0 at half time. At the start of the second half Taggart emerges from the tunnel - the PA announces that it's his birthday new years eve, believe it or not, boos rained down from the crowd.
The second half was a siege. Mark Hughes scoring to make it a final score 1-1.
Trying to get out of Manchester was a nightmare, but listening to the radio on the way home a certain former manager Tommy Docherty slated our centre forward stating he should never be a professional footballer.
Taggart won the FA Cup that season and the rest is history. By the way our 'slated' centre forward that day..... a young Dwight Yorke !!!!!!
I was there that day as well. They gave us behind the goal if i remember rightly. I've still got the ticket!
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They won the cup the season before and unless I'm mistaken they also scored first that day.
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I hope Houllier is twice as crap as Ferguson.
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Interesting aside, I learned yesterday that he is not yet Man U's longest serving manager. He still has a little way to go to surpass Matt Busby's record.
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he's not that good,
he's been the manager of the biggest club in the world for the last 25 years,
they have also been the richest club for most of that time, and he has delivered the european cup twice in that time, thats a pretty dire record in my view.
he would have been sacked years ago at Real Madrid, they wouldnt put up with just domestic succes
when the prem was formed in 92, winning the league with Man Utd was akin to Celtic winning the Scottish league without Rangers, easy,
they had more money than any body else, pick of any player they wanted,
only when he had a bit of competition ie Blackburn because of the money, Arsenal because of a better manager,and Chelsea because of a billionare did he struggle
his record at Aberdeen was truly great, to break the old firm rule was probably his greatest achievment,
but to claim he has won more than Clough which makes him better is rubbish,
in Cloughs day you only played in the European cup if you were champions,
Clough won it twice with Forest and won it twice,
Fergie has been it it for the last 20 odd years and failed most times misserably,
he only won it the first time through the most incredible luck in injury time after been played of the park for 90 minuets, the second time because another player slipped on the mud to miss his penalty,
hardly Barcelona is it ?
he is good, but i agree with aftab, he's not that good
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And who turned Manchester United INTO the richest club in the world? Don't forget that in Fergie's early days Michael Knighton was going to buy them for £10 million.
The Premier League made it easier for them to dominate but saying Ferguson isn't one of the three or four greatest British managers ever is ridiculous.
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And who turned Manchester United INTO the richest club in the world? Don't forget that in Fergie's early days Michael Knighton was going to buy them for £10 million.
The Premier League made it easier for them to dominate but saying Ferguson isn't one of the three or four greatest British managers ever is ridiculous.
in the 70's when they were rubbish, they were still a massive club, in my view still bigger than Liverpool even then,
i agree with you Fergie has build a dynasty there, but was helped as they were the biggest to start with.
then the prem started and they went of into a different stratosphere compared to most other clubs,
i did say he was a good manager though, i dont think he's the best, but certainly in the top 5,
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Nobody gave them the first Premier League - they won it. And they won it without the massive sponsorship deals which came later. When a club can go 26 years without winning the league, then under one manager win it 11 times in 18 years - doesn't that say something?
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They won the cup the season before and unless I'm mistaken they also scored first that day.
I was at that game. It was my nineteenth birthday and United did definitely score first that day.
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when the prem was formed in 92, winning the league with Man Utd was akin to Celtic winning the Scottish league without Rangers, easy
Really? So Liverpool, Arsenal, Leeds and Villa were the equivalent of Dundee United, Falkirk, Partick Thistle and Hibs were they? News to me.
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Nobody gave them the first Premier League - they won it. And they won it without the massive sponsorship deals which came later. When a club can go 26 years without winning the league, then under one manager win it 11 times in 18 years - doesn't that say something?
i'm not trying to say he's a rubbish manager, clearly he is not,
but for most of those 26 years when they couldnt win the league was in the day when clubs were a lot closer in terms competition,
Derby, Forest, Ipswich, Villa, QPR, Watford, Norwich were all clubs which challenged for the league, some as we know became champions
this would never happen today, only 3/4 clubs got any chance now, sometimes even less than that.
the competition was a lot closer, any club with a good manager that built a decent team could have a go,
thats not the case now, you need money and lots of it, and it still doesnt gurantee success, but without it does gurantee not winning it.
Fergie has presided over Man Utd in the decades when they were bigger and richer than anyone else,
i agree he can take credit for building them to even bigger world wide status, but i dont think he would have had the same success if it hadnt been for the size and fianancial backing the club has had for the last 2 decades
he is a good manager, to say different would be churlish, i'm just trying to give a different perspective
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when the prem was formed in 92, winning the league with Man Utd was akin to Celtic winning the Scottish league without Rangers, easy
Really? So Liverpool, Arsenal, Leeds and Villa were the equivalent of Dundee United, Falkirk, Partick Thistle and Hibs were they? News to me.
Celtic were the equals of Rangers, both in terms of size and finance, the rest were also rans
there was no one equal to Man Utd back then, not by a long way, money has changed that for a few, but then thats why they dont win it every year any more
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Do you think part of the reason there's no real competition might be because he destroyed it?
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Do you think part of the reason there's no real competition might be because he destroyed it?
maybe,
i'm just trotting out arguments i have with my family members to be honest,
i come from up there,
and even my parents had season tickets at Old Trafford, all my cousins nephews all support them,
one of my cousins has a couple of children with Boylie, who you will know, and i have met on a good few occasions so you can imagine what i'm surrounded by all the time
when your sitting around the christmas tree and they go on how great Fergie is, you have to have some sort of counter argument, so thats what it is,
as you and others have pointed out, it might not be the greatest argument but its the best i have,
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I don't think it is any coincidence that Man Utd started winning the League when Sky and the Premier League came into being.
As we know, back in the nineties Sky (Murdoch) even tried to buy Man Utd. The growth of both businesses were tied in together. When the Premier League kicked off Man Utd would have known that Sky were willing to cover them live more often than not. This "guarantee" of coverage was a luxury that the likes of Villa did not have. It enabled Man Utd to plan ahead, grow and spend far more than we ever could on players etc.. On top of that, it gave them the funds to expand Old Trafford and further increase the size of their business.
Ferguson is clearly a very good manager and an astute judge. He picked the right club to manage at pretty much the right time...although, as I say, the funding, coverage and commercial opportunities that Sky TV gave his club pretty much gave him a clear run to glory throughout the nineties.
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when your sitting around the christmas tree and they go on how great Fergie is, you have to have some sort of counter argument, so thats what it is,
as you and others have pointed out, it might not be the greatest argument but its the best i have,
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I don't envy you there mate! Boylie is the bloke who started the Cantona song right? I can just imagine the dirty bast4rds singing it around the xmas tree!
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Sky owned 10% of man United and sold up to JP McManus.... Hardly fergie's best mate.
They also owned a similar stake in Man City and Newcastle and Leeds.
A bit like when NTL were snapping up chunks of Villa, Rangers, Celtic.
Fergie picked Man United after Big Ron had been sacked and I think the only luck he had was that the board were too nervous too sack another manager so soon asfter Big Ron and that bought Fergie some time to build the squad
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Fergie, and also Man Utd as a club, were lucky enough to be in the ascendencey as the PL revolutionised the game. So from one point I can see how you could say he was 'lucky' in the timing of that, even if it does negate the fact he had no advantage in that title victory all the previous Utd managers didn't have that failed to win the league for 26 years.
However, to then stay at the top for 2 decades takes more than just being a decent manager at a super rich club. If that was the case why did Newcastle never win it despite often out spending Man Utd in the 90s? Or why do Real madrid not win the CL every year?
Yes, he's had advantages, but those were brought about by the success he built. Truely a great manager and deserves every accolade he gets.
Even if I do still think he's a tosser!
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I can't stand the dour bastard but I wouldn't even to try to argue that he wasn't one of the very best managers of all time. Yes, he's had some advanatges but to keep doing it, to keep the desire and hunger to build new teams and win more tropies at a time when most are looking to put their feet up is truly remarkable. That he won 3 successive league titles while Abramovich was shelling out at Chelsea speaks volumes.
However, I'm pretty sure that Doug would have managed to knock the ambition out of him given the chance.
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That he won 3 successive league titles while Abramovich was shelling out at Chelsea speaks volumes.
This might be the achievement that tops the lot for me.
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John e, you're having a 'mare mate, do yourself a favour and retire gracefully while you still have a tiny amount of credulity left!
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Have to agree with john e, he is a good manager, possibly great, but i could have been at Old Trafford.
Biggest club in the world, probably, biggest fan base, biggest turnover.
For them to ONLY win the European Cup in the time he has been there suggests he is'nt that great to me.
In the 80s, 9 teams won the league in a decade, only 4 teams have ever won the Prem.Only 3 can probably win it this year.For years they bought the lge, when only Arse were true rivals.
Good ...yes, Great.....not sure.
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I remember us stuffing them 3-0 on Boxing Day 1989 and the away end shouting "Fergie must go".
I wish they had got their way.
If we had played Oldham on grass we might have won the Cup and he might have got the boot. He's still undeniably a great manager. Don't overlook what he achieved at Aberdeen either. Other than a brief flourish from Dundee United no other buggers have been close to the Bigotted Two since.
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Have to agree with john e, he is a good manager, possibly great, but i could have been at Old Trafford.
Biggest club in the world, probably, biggest fan base, biggest turnover.
For them to ONLY win the European Cup in the time he has been there suggests he is'nt that great to me.
In the 80s, 9 teams won the league in a decade, only 4 teams have ever won the Prem.Only 3 can probably win it this year.For years they bought the lge, when only Arse were true rivals.
Good ...yes, Great.....not sure.
The biggest chink in his armour ability to stand alongside the greats has been his European Cup record. Only 2 wins after continual qualification for the last 20 odd seasons. He's been continually found out by the very best coaches tactically in that time and several United fans I know actually wanted rid of him about 6 or 7 years ago because they felt with all the inbuilt advantages he's benefited from over the last decade then a return of 2 European Cups was very poor.
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Have to agree with john e, he is a good manager, possibly great, but i could have been at Old Trafford.
Biggest club in the world, probably, biggest fan base, biggest turnover.
For them to ONLY win the European Cup in the time he has been there suggests he is'nt that great to me.
In the 80s, 9 teams won the league in a decade, only 4 teams have ever won the Prem.Only 3 can probably win it this year.For years they bought the lge, when only Arse were true rivals.
Good ...yes, Great.....not sure.
In the 80s, 4 teams won the league, us, Liverpool, Everton and Arsenal. I don't get the 9 teams comment?
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Think i got my facts wrong, i thought 8/9 teams had won the lge in the 80s......got it wrong, what a plonker.
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That he won 3 successive league titles while Abramovich was shelling out at Chelsea speaks volumes.
This might be the achievement that tops the lot for me.
And a European Cup.
Best manager of all time in my view. I think he might jack it in at the end of the season though.