Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine

Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: dave.woodhall on September 09, 2010, 06:40:39 PM

Title: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: dave.woodhall on September 09, 2010, 06:40:39 PM
As written by Liverpool supporter and journalist Steven Kelly.

Ever seen The Producers? Remember the facial expressions on the audience at the end of Springtime For Hitler?
Chances are you’ll be seeing those faces a lot if Gerard Houllier reproduces his Anfield years at Villa Park. Of course that will also mean you winning three cups in one season, so your performances can be as boring as he likes and he can say whatever he wants. Winners get to do exactly whatever they please, but it’s not a pretty sight or sound when the gravy train is unceremoniously shunted into the sidings. It can in fact become extremely unpleasant.

He still gets under the skins of Liverpool fans today. Not difficult, I hear you snigger, but in a recent Evening Standard interview (when he seemed to be snuffling after the Fulham job) he continued to ludicrously claim all the credit for Istanbul, gave the knife in Roy Evans’ back another little twist and insisted one of our players gloated that he’d won more trophies than Benitez.

And he’s still pecking away at David Ginola for France’s World Cup demise in 1993, his first ugly confrontation with failure, to the point where the magnificently coiffured one is talking about legal action.

With Gerard, things are never quiet. Perhaps I’m being unfair and six years out of the English cauldron has smoothed over his eccentricities; after all managers, like goalkeepers, appear to regard madness as prerequisite number one on the CV.
But it’s almost as if insanity stalks him. The only thing we knew about him when he arrived in 1998 was that somehow France had lost two home games with an astounding array of talent and screwed up their World Cup spot, that the manager started to vilify one player for the hideous crime of losing the ball deep in opposition territory. Suddenly there he was, sharing the manager’s office at Liverpool in a bold experiment. Did I say bold? I meant cracked, obviously.

Evans later wrote that if a player needed to be dropped Houllier would simply vanish and miss the arranged ‘showdown’, something which makes Houllier’s recent claim that Roy was “weak” all the more galling. Anyway, it didn’t work as everyone knew it wouldn’t so Evans did the Captain Oates bit and we were left with Gerard and a motley crew of arrogant wasters and lower level chancers.

What Houllier did in those next two years was remarkable, and something he rarely gets credit for outside of L4 and sometimes not even within. He not only produced a turnover of players that would make even Harry Redknapp’s face spasm into overdrive, a dozen in and a dozen out, but also triggered a complete change in attitude from the Spice Boy era to a squad of players dedicated and workmanlike. So what if there weren’t many goals, so what if the sheer weight of boredom snapped the matchsticks that were propping your eyelids open? These players cared and this team was climbing the table again.

Liverpool had to sell 10% of the club to give him any kind of transfer budget but it was very interesting where that money went; on a solid keeper, two excellent centre halves and Dietmar Hamann just in front of them all. Belt AND braces. You could immediately see where Houllier was coming from and it worked. By the time Heskey was recruited most of Evans’ pretty football had been binned, carted off and recycled. The New Pragmatism had arrived.

The Treble has often been derided by rivals as ‘plastic’ featuring as it did two cups no one really wants, except beggars who have lost the right to choose. That’s not a dig by the way, we’ll also take anything this season (survival is looking good right now). What Houllier did was unique; we played the maximum number of games it’s possible to play in a season, barring replays, won all the finals and qualified for the Champions League. You may also recall that he made Trevor Francis cry like a little girl. There was plenty of luck of course, even Birmingham were kind of hard done by, but Liverpool were back winning trophies and making progress in Europe.

Then he fell dangerously ill and was out of the game for most of the following season. The surgeons couldn’t operate unless they induced a coma and after that he was on the table for eleven hours. It is said you need one month of recuperation for every hour in surgery - Gerard returned to the Anfield bench in six. There had always been eccentric tics and quirks and more than a smidge of arrogance, but he did seem to get worse after that. Hardly a surprise, really.

Even now cynics place the blame for this on his own self absorption; that he quietly seethed as Liverpool got better and better under Phil Thompson’s careful caretaker guidance. Even though the nasally blessed one was merely following orders, the lure of leading Liverpool into the business end of the Champions League and the title race was altogether too tempting. He didn’t exactly wreck everything, though he had a tactical nightmare in Europe which denied us a semi final with Manchester United, but there was just something not quite right.

The next two seasons aren’t remembered too fondly, despite another cup. He spent £20 million on Diao, Diouf and Cheyrou when he could have kept Anelka and signed Duff; he even wanted to sign the hideous Bowyer at one point before common sense and/or decency prevailed. And the football somehow got worse. Benitez handed him his arse in Europe, and Steven Gerrard’s collapse in form was treated with what many still regard as cold callousness. But not by the player himself, strangely. He can be quite the diplomat when he’s not lamping wankers in wine bars, and both Gerrard and Jamie Carragher speak highly of Houllier to this day.

Liverpool fans, not so much. Some of us got tired of batting away that terrible “We won, that’s all that matters, stop moaning” bouncer that was inevitably thrown at us, which all dried up when the victories did. We had to put up with some appalling shite, both on the pitch and from the manager’s mouth. True, this was all in comparison to the standards Houllier himself had set, but football fans (and I’ll admit Liverpool’s are the worst, along with United’s) love nothing better than to sing a chorus or two of Janet Jackson; “What have you done for me lately?”

Oh I dunno; rescued the club from cocky overpaid brats who thought they were doing you a favour by turning up, put you right back in the great stadiums of Europe with your head held high, made the Welsh Wembley your second home, made Liverpool a genuine force again. Will any of that suffice?

For some it did, for others it became habitual to focus on awful negative football and a constant stream of verbal drivel designed to protect the chalkboard boss from any criticism whatsoever. To Houllier the plan was perfect; the only flaws were always in execution. All managers tend to behave the same of course, but Gerard took it to a whole new depth and by 2004 it was for the best that he left. He was saved from himself in the end.

Liverpudlian arrogance is such that the expectations are ridiculously high and the country in general revels in our occasional troughs (seventh? Where’s that shotgun?) but Houllier, like Evans before him and Benitez afterwards, popped that laughter right back in the can.

Could he do the same for the Villa? He’s not going to get the Caretaker Year he had at Anfield, where all problems were blamed on his predecessor, especially if  supporters of Martin O’Neill are going to be hovering like hawks over every little slip-up (Hodgson is already getting the same blowtorch treatment up here). His organisational skills are renowned, and given time he will put things in place that can serve Villa well for years, maybe even decades, to come.

Just don’t expect to be singing “It’s like watching Brazil” any time soon.
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: Monty on September 09, 2010, 06:43:32 PM
Which is of course a very different perspective to the one given by many people I know who watch Lyon. But that's Liverpool I suppose.
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: Michel Sibble on September 09, 2010, 06:53:13 PM
Quote
He not only produced a turnover of players that would make even Harry Redknapp’s face spasm into overdrive

I'm having my dinner here!

Seriously, very good article. But Villa fans can be just as arrogant, in the other direction.
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: TimTheVillain on September 09, 2010, 06:55:20 PM
It's something to factor in rather than form the basis of any pre-judged style of Houllier's reign at VP.

From what I've read, he's a 'new man' anyway !


Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: TheSandman on September 09, 2010, 06:57:21 PM
As I said on another thread I expect Houllier to give us a more technical style but not a more entertaining one.

At least there is a good chance he will sign a decent defensive midfielder.
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: Pete3206 on September 09, 2010, 06:57:28 PM
Liverpool are not exactly that much better off now are they?

The article is obviously written from the heart, but the bitterness is all too apparent.

Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: garyshawsknee on September 09, 2010, 06:59:41 PM
Liverpool are not exactly that much better off now are they?

The article is obviously written from the heart, but the bitterness is all too apparent.



 Who'll get the job to write one when M'ON gets his next job !!
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: Can Gana Be Bettered!?!? on September 09, 2010, 07:01:37 PM
Looks like all those who moaned at MON for his style of football are in for a treat!
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: eastie on September 09, 2010, 07:02:32 PM
Steven Kelly wasn't as critical of houllier when he wrote the biography houllier- but I suppose then gerard meant money in kellys pocket, seems a bit like sour grapes and hugely two faced to me- I bought kellys book on eBay this week about houllier for £2 and it makes him sound a great manager- fickle lot those scousers!
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: dave.woodhall on September 09, 2010, 07:15:04 PM
Steven Kelly wasn't as critical of houllier when he wrote the biography houllier- but I suppose then gerard meant money in kellys pocket, seems a bit like sour grapes and hugely two faced to me- I bought kellys book on eBay this week about houllier for £2 and it makes him sound a great manager- fickle lot those scousers!

Different Steven Kelly.
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: KevinGage on September 09, 2010, 07:16:28 PM
Pretty much tallies with what I've heard.

Only thing he omitted was threatening to sue Sander Westerveld. We've had two self-servinig blame everyone else waffle merchants recently (DOL and MON). My concern from the very outset was that GH is cut from the same cloth.

The hope is that the good will outweigh the bad, that the contacts he has and broader European knowledge will benefit AVFC in the longrun. Perhaps age has taught him the error of his ways too, and he's mellowed a bit. That might be wishful thinking though. Those type of characters generally get more stubborn/ awkward with age. 'This is how I've always done it, it's got results so why change?'  and so on.
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: Mac on September 09, 2010, 07:23:10 PM
Somebody has already said Houllier is a French Martin O'Neill
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: eastie on September 09, 2010, 07:32:39 PM
Let's wait and see and be positive , it was a few years ago, people change sometimes.
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: Monty on September 09, 2010, 07:33:35 PM
Also he was Monsieur 4-3-3 at Lyon.
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: Rudy Can't Fail on September 09, 2010, 07:36:51 PM
Somebody has already said Houllier is a French Martin O'Neill

(cough)
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: Matt C on September 09, 2010, 07:40:37 PM
You read a piece like that and you're reminded that football fans at most other clubs are having exactly the same discussions, arguments & criticisms about their club that you do about ours. Funny old game.
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: lordmcgrath5 on September 09, 2010, 07:41:14 PM
Very interesting, well written article. Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: supertom on September 09, 2010, 07:46:49 PM
I think we've got enough individually gifted players to entertain us, I hope. Add GH's organisation and more technical style, and I don't think we'll suffer too much watching the team. I'm still expecting, at home at least, an improvement on Martins style. Away, we'll see.

His record was as good as Benetiz's. Really, what Benetiz had and what gave him a lot of leighway with many liverpool fans, was the Champs League, as opposed to the Uefa that Houllier snagged. Benetiz didn't have them playing great football. Again, his problem was trying to have them play like a Spanish side in the Prem league. It didn't work, didn't particularly get them close to winning a title. And last season for them was a bigger cock up than anything Houllier delivered.
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: jembob on September 09, 2010, 08:10:18 PM
If MON joined the Barcodes they would all be delighted and we would probably be telling them why they'll be pissed of with him in 3 or 4 years time. Nevertheless MON would be ideal for them and would improve them over the course of 3 years. That's what he does - he improves mediocre teams, but the past 12 months proved he wasn't capable of taking Villa to the highest of levels.
Houllier could just have a similar role to play for us. That is to help us kick on to the next level and while he may not be the manager capable of landing us the biggest of prizes, he will help to raise the club up to the next level. If he can get us into the CL over the next 3 years and win a couple of cups then that will be his part played and we would move on to the next level of manager.
With the benefit of hindsight, MON was never going to establish us as a top 4 team but he did raise the club from mediocrity to knocking on the door of the CL and gave us back some credibility. Job done. So long and thanks for the good memories you judas.
Houllier's job will be to help the club evolve further again to the next level. He won't win us the Premiership or CL but he will develop the club ready for the next manager to do something special. It's evolution and not revolution.
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: Toronto Villa on September 09, 2010, 08:10:42 PM
I actually enjoyed that article. We could do with a brooming of a few of players. I quite like the sound of more transfers and winning stuff. I also would like to see us make Trevor F R A N C I S cry - again, even if I actually like him as a commentator. Even if his teams won't be Arsenal or Barca any time soon, what I would like for us to do is go the extra step and know how to get it done. Something we ain't done in a good while.
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: Rudy Can't Fail on September 09, 2010, 08:20:01 PM
It was a good read. I just wonder if he'll last the three years of his contract.*

*Obviously not referring to his health.
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: Small Rodent on September 09, 2010, 08:23:01 PM
That article is going to be selectively cut and paste for weeks to come!

Very interesting and quite rounded read for me. Football "writing" rather than football "journalism".
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: Toronto Villa on September 09, 2010, 08:26:31 PM
It was a good read. I just wonder if he'll last the three years of his contract.*

*Obviously not referring to his health.

If he does, then I would hope that we have shiny stuff to be proud of. What I am looking forward to us remaining competitive as we were under MON, but having some new faces coming in the January window to not only keep us there, but finish off a few deals. Everyone knows that for the past few years come March we were gassed. I hope that changes because we have more legs and those legs have been rotated properly.
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: TheTimVilla on September 09, 2010, 08:31:22 PM
Good read. I'd be interested to read it again this time next year.
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: The Man With A Stick on September 09, 2010, 08:44:43 PM
I don't remember them being that much more entertaining under Benitez to be honest.  He lived off that lucky win in Istanbul for five years.
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: John Mitchell on September 09, 2010, 09:02:01 PM
I also would like to see us make Trevor F R A N C I S cry - again, even if I actually like him as a commentator.

You like him as a commentator? Are you on crack?
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: sfx412 on September 09, 2010, 09:22:32 PM
Somebody has already said Houllier is a French Martin O'Neill

did he win 3 cups in a season then ?
I know he's never quit the club he managed 5 days before the season kicked off, either
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: Toronto Villa on September 09, 2010, 09:24:27 PM
I also would like to see us make Trevor F R A N C I S cry - again, even if I actually like him as a commentator.

You like him as a commentator? Are you on crack?

no, I genuinely like him as a commentator. He's usually very complimentary about us and generally gives a very balanced reading of the game. I really don't like Ekoku and Wobbie Earle by comparison.
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: dicedlam on September 09, 2010, 10:54:13 PM
I also would like to see us make Trevor F R A N C I S cry - again, even if I actually like him as a commentator.



You like him as a commentator? Are you on crack?

no, I genuinely like him as a commentator. He's usually very complimentary about us and generally gives a very balanced reading of the game. I really don't like Ekoku and Wobbie Earle by comparison.

I totally agree there tv.
I have always found Francis to give a good honest assessment on any of our games. If anything, a slightly biased view in our favour?

Christ knows why with all the abuse the bloke used to get from us.
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: Perry Barr Pet on September 09, 2010, 11:25:52 PM
I also would like to see us make Trevor F R A N C I S cry - again, even if I actually like him as a commentator.



You like him as a commentator? Are you on crack?

no, I genuinely like him as a commentator. He's usually very complimentary about us and generally gives a very balanced reading of the game. I really don't like Ekoku and Wobbie Earle by comparison.

I totally agree there tv.
I have always found Francis to give a good honest assessment on any of our games. If anything, a slightly biased view in our favour?

Christ knows why with all the abuse the bloke used to get from us.


Or, as someone once described it, 'the adenoidal ramblings of Beelzebub'.....
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: Ross on September 09, 2010, 11:37:00 PM
I think Francis' commentary is actually slightly pro-Villa. He's probably very concious that he will be accused of being anti-Villa that he goes the other way.  Much like 'Villa fan' Alan Smith who seems to commentate on every Villa v Blues match on Sky, and goes so far the other way and makes my blood boil.  Especially 03-03-03. *shudders*
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: Sleeuwenhoek on September 09, 2010, 11:38:05 PM
Quote
[/quoQuote from: Mac on Today at 07:23:10 PM
Somebody has already said Houllier is a French Martin O'Neill]

Great, we'll finish 6th and get to go to Wemberlee again ;)
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 09, 2010, 11:43:48 PM
I think Francis' commentary is actually slightly pro-Villa. He's probably very concious that he will be accused of being anti-Villa that he goes the other way.  Much like 'Villa fan' Alan Smith who seems to commentate on every Villa v Blues match on Sky, and goes so far the other way and makes my blood boil.  Especially 03-03-03. *shudders*

I too think that Francis is always a very fair commentator with us. In fact, by "fair", he actually sounds very pro Villa.

Unlike David Platt who never has a good fucking word to say, and can't pronounce Agbonlahor.
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: hawkeye on September 09, 2010, 11:58:35 PM
FFS Francis only started liking us when his mate MON became manager, expect the previous nasally put downs in future.

by the way the olriginal post was a great read , objective accurate and funny, can we swap him with Tonto
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: Toronto Villa on September 10, 2010, 12:19:33 AM
FFS Francis only started liking us when his mate MON became manager, expect the previous nasally put downs in future.

by the way the olriginal post was a great read , objective accurate and funny, can we swap him with Tonto

I was with your mum earlier. I let her call me Tonto too. You know like the horse. She enjoyed it.
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: BannedUserIAT on September 10, 2010, 03:02:31 AM
Immature, ridiculous, childish, unnecessary behaviour.

And did I piss myself laughing.
What is it the kids say? "PWNED".
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: VillaZogmariner on September 10, 2010, 03:23:08 AM
Brilliant response!
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: Dr Butler on September 10, 2010, 08:31:24 AM
Liverpool are not exactly that much better off now are they?

The article is obviously written from the heart, but the bitterness is all too apparent.



Those two words go together like Strawberries and cream.....

UTV
The Doc
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: Risso on September 10, 2010, 09:07:39 AM
FFS Francis only started liking us when his mate MON became manager, expect the previous nasally put downs in future.

by the way the olriginal post was a great read , objective accurate and funny, can we swap him with Tonto

I was with your mum earlier. I let her call me Tonto too. You know like the horse. She enjoyed it.

Less of tha...ah bollocks, excellent riposte, had me laughing!
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: Dave Cooper please on September 10, 2010, 09:52:17 AM
But Tonto wasn't the horse, he was the Red Indian.
Kimusabe.
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: Small Rodent on September 10, 2010, 10:00:06 AM
But Tonto wasn't the horse, he was the Red Indian.
Kimusabe.


When the Lone Ranger had cancer, Tonto called him Kimotherapy.
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: pablopicasso_10 on September 10, 2010, 10:42:47 AM
i really like the idea of us working harder, especially from the front... i also like the idea of us being able to pass the ball about and wait for openings.. that is what top teams do...

we have players capable of doing that, and as my liverpool supporting mates have said, his team "wasnt so much defensive, more counter attacking", that could suit us down to the ground...
Title: Re: From our Merseyside correspondent
Post by: Drummond on September 11, 2010, 09:04:03 AM
He's won trophies. Championships and Cups in a number of competitions that are tricky to win. That's more than can be said for our previous few managers isn't it?
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