Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: dave.woodhall on August 15, 2010, 01:55:22 PM
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As you'll have worked out, there was a bit of re-writing after the events of last week. This meant we lost a few articles, at least one of which was so good it deserves to be seen publicly.
New Big ‘Ead – Is Martin O’Neill really like Brian Clough?
When James Milner returned from his post-World Cup contract negoti – sorry, holiday – the emnity between club and player was seemingly resolved in what was termed an ‘amicable chat’. Martin O’Neill went on to quote the manager who figures largest in his footballing career, Brian Clough, by concluding that they sat down together, talked about it and decided in the end that the manager was right.
You’d be forgiven for thinking that Brian Clough stalks the corridors of Villa Park in the way that a fictional Don Revie stalked Elland Road in The Damned United, the book and film about Clough. For a man who had his best success on the odd side of the Midlands, he doesn’t half loom large in claret and blue these days.
In the modern era, with a plethora of Premier League coaches coming from Europe and a dearth of British ones that give good copy (as anyone who heard Mick McCarthy’s World Cup punditry will attest), Martin O’Neill is a sports editor’s dream because not only did he play under Brian Clough but with his wit and his personality, he’s virtually Cloughie reborn. However, is this in danger of damaging Aston Villa?
There is nothing wrong in wanting to emulate Cloughie – well, the glory parts, anyway. He was one of the most successful British managers of all time, and took two unfashionable clubs from the even more unfashionable East Midlands to the peaks of the game. His outspoken nature also endeared him to fans. Brian Clough was a man of sharp mind and tongue and this has led to some of his more quotable lines being set in stone as football’s holy writ. Based on all that, who wouldn’t want our very own version cutting a sarcastic swathe across the modern game?
Well, it appears, not as many Villa fans as previously thought. This summer, the internet has been awash with discord emanating from fans of Aston Villa at O’Neill’s total control and the lack of positive news coming from the club. The lack of transfer activity and the James Milner saga, coming exactly two years after we suffered the Gareth Barry debacle, have left many in a state of high dudgeon.
Ironically enough, it is those qualities that our manager seems to share with his former boss that are beginning to grate on some Villa fans. Both share the same ambition (some might say bloody-mindedness), both are fiercely loyal to their backroom staff, and both share complete control of their clubs. Both men built sides that favoured tricky wingers and big powerful centre-forwards, and both men have made decisions that have baffled or angered fans and not really held their hands up to those mistakes.
Many managers, especially in the latter years of their careers, have shared these qualities, but nobody has fitted the coat of Clough as snugly as O’Neill has. Clough managed at a time when his word was law and being abrasive didn’t matter as long as the result followed. Of course, this is simplifying it a tad, but the manager had enough personality for the whole squad put together. We see echoes of it in O’Neill’s management style – there are not many huge personalities in the Villa squad, and those that do step out of line tend to be punished (we’re looking at you, John).
But is this too simplistic a comparison? There is a danger of mixing up Cloughie the man with Cloughie the cartoon. For all of his big headed bluster, his darker side was forgotten until after he slew of biographies that followed The Damned United. They showed Clough could be a caring, generous man, but he could also come across as uncaring and unnecessarily sharp. People used to say that his OBE stood for ‘Outspoken But Enigmatic,’ and that just about sums him up. His presence in the media shielded the uglier and less successful aspects of Clough’s career, for better and for worse. Clouting fans who ran on the pitch, his petty and unnecessary feud with former colleague Peter Taylor, the times when he seemed to cause arguments for the sake of it. That was just Brian being Brian.
O’Neill, by contrast, is a more circumspect figure. Listen to any of his press conferences and he says a lot without actually telling you anything, and this is a difference with Clough’s style that rankles fans. He always keeps people guessing, and though he has a natural wit and a charm of his own, he treats the media nothing like Clough did. He doesn’t make verbal assaults, he doesn’t splash exclusives across tabloids and he doesn’t hit fans then call a press conference so they can apologise to him.
So what does this tell us? We can say that what we know of each man’s personality means that O’Neill is an ersatz Clough if not an exact copy, but does it do Aston Villa any good? If Clough were in his prime today and at the helm at Villa Park, would we be spending half the transfer budget on silver polish right now?
Well, Clough was successful, there’s no arguing with that. It is pointless to speculate how his winning sides would get on in the modern game, but if O’Neill is the closest exponent of that style, you can’t claim that either man would be walking up the Wembley steps anytime soon. We have seen Villa’s shortcomings in the league, in Europe and in cups, even if in the latter we came tantalisingly close. And we only have to look at the trouncing dished out by Benfica a few weeks ago to see how limited the way that style of play is.
Villa’s frantic rushing certainly can get the blood going, but the style struggles to win many friends even among home fans. Both managers would argue that it’s the results which stare back from the history books rather than how it was achieved, but the world has changed. The World Cup final, for example, showed just how off-putting a physical and one-dimensional strategy can be. Fitness and doggedness are one thing, but for O’Neill to truly be appreciated like his mentor was, beauty has to triumph over strength, and from what we have seen in the past four years, that appears to be as far away as it ever was.
The good news is that Martin O’Neill is not Brian Clough – he’s a deeper thinker who is succeeding in a game which has little time for mavericks as it is. The upward momentum he has bought to Villa has won him many friends and admirers outside of the Villa fans, and the word is that his chairman still appreciates what he gives to the club. The man is always capable of springing a surprise signing before the end of the transfer window that would ally a lot of the sniping, and a number of the players used to get him into the position the club is now in seem to be on borrowed time. Only when we see who he replaces them with will we know if he’s his own man with his own style, or if he’s doomed to always walk in the shadow of another.
Chris Stanley
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Well argued piece. MON reminds me a lot of Roy Keane or vice-versa in that they've based their management style on the more personality based traits of their mentors and not necessarily the footballing side of things.
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Good time to point out that I thought the re-writing job on the new H&V was very impressive. Given the events of the last week, the magazine felt like it had been put together yesterday, rather than across the summer. Quite some achievement.
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Good piece that. As he says, there's nothing wrong with wanting to emulate Clough's achievement, but O'Neill was always in danger of coming across like a Clough copyist.
Not only has the game moved on enormously since Clough's methods brought him sucess, but it has moved on significantly since copying Clough's methods brought O'Neill any success.
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A good piece, and well done Dave on "rescuing" this issue of H&V from instant obselescense.
Amidst the growing rancour with MON's leaving, and his increasingly autocratic demeanour, let's just remember that he delivered the best three consecutive post ww2 finishes of any Villa manager.
The good and bad came as a package, just as it did with Clough, and you probably can't just cherry pick the good bits from MON.
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yep liked that article.
I always felt the Clough thing was slightly overplayed
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A very good article i enjoyed it.
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Thanks for the praise, but Si and Stuart Griffin also helped to get everything sorted so thanks to them as well.
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On a side note, when are the copies sent out by post?
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On a side note, when are the copies sent out by post?
Usually Friday, but last Friday was a Legion day so they went yesterday.
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Cheers Dave. I will eagerly await my copy.
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Excellent article. Well written and it makes some very good points.
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Good article that
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Enjoyed reading that.
I think what Martin takes most from Clough is the 'my word is law' management style, where any mellowing and taking on of other's views is seen as a sign of weakness. It's confidence to the point of arrogance, but they think it's the best way to get the players to believe in them.
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Cheers Dave. I will eagerly await my copy.
Not buying from me then D.Boy? Shame. Still, at least I can modify my 'ACAB(except D.Boy)' tattoo.
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Great article that. I never really bought into the MON Clough comparison and always thought that Mourinho is much more befitting of the modern day Clough mantle.
On a slight tangent, I grew up near Derby and a friend of mine worked at Clough's local Co-op. I'd often see him as I waited for my mate to clock off. He once saw me doing kick ups in the car park and asked me "Who do you want to play for young man?" to which I replied Villa, "You'd be lucky" was his response. He always said hello and would regularly buy sweets for any kids near the checkout. I once saw him pay for an old lady's shopping for no reason other than to be nice. A top bloke.
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Martin O'Neill is not in same league as Old Big Head. If Clough was in his 40s and managing Villa today we will win 2 more titles and possibly champions league. Clough always like footballers to play and pass the ball properly. I am a big fan of Old Big Head but not O'Neill.
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A good article. My own view is that the O'Niell/Clough dimension is little more than spin. O'Neill perceived a media structure being erected and stepped inside it. Martin O'Neill has never made it at the highest level and now probably never will. Dave summed it up for me when we chatted before the West Ham game and said he felt O'Neill is a top six manager but not a top four manager.
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He has made a career out of not doing difficult high profile jobs was how someone else described him.
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A good article. My own view is that the O'Niell/Clough dimension is little more than spin. O'Neill perceived a media structure being erected and stepped inside it. Martin O'Neill has never made it at the highest level and now probably never will. Dave summed it up for me when we chatted before the West Ham game and said he felt O'Neill is a top six manager but not a top four manager.
I agree Brian that at best he is a top 6 manager (if you let him cultivate an outlandish wage bill) So why did so many people treat him like the second coming?
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A good article. My own view is that the O'Niell/Clough dimension is little more than spin. O'Neill perceived a media structure being erected and stepped inside it. Martin O'Neill has never made it at the highest level and now probably never will. Dave summed it up for me when we chatted before the West Ham game and said he felt O'Neill is a top six manager but not a top four manager.
I agree Brian that at best he is a top 6 manager (if you let him cultivate an outlandish wage bill) So why did so many people treat him like the second coming?
I really don't think that's true Mark. Personally, I just think he's a good manager, but seem to have said so hundreds of times in arguments with people who disagreed. This in turn led to the kind of accusation you have made above, unfairly IMO. I could have responded by saying 'you think he's the anti-Christ', but mostly just accepted that your opinion is that he's not a good manager, and argued against that.
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Maybe not so much on here Perce, but other sites were full of comments like "he's the best manager we could hope to attract" and "if he leaves we're fucked". Both absolute nonsense of course.
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Thanks for the praise, but Si and Stuart Griffin also helped to get everything sorted so thanks to them as well.
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:5E7GMrbCt2ci2M:http://images.hollywoodgrind.com:9000/images/2009/8/stewie-griffin-is-gay.jpg&t=1) :o ???
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Yeah, I can see why that bit was left out of the fanzine.
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And another piece we had to omit:
Has the Honeymoon ended for O’Neill?
Martin O’Neill’s fifth season at Villa Park sees him dealing with a new situation. Inside the club the money flow is being squeezed, with clear suggestions he has to cut the wages bill. And from outside, the new 25 man limit on Premiership squads and attempts to curb club debt mean gambling on players is over. The immediate question is who Martin will have for his 25 man squad by 1st September.
As of 7th August, the key question of whether Milner will stay or go is unresolved. If he goes, Martin has more cash for transfers, but whatever happens, Villa face an uphill battle in a world where Manchester City aim for two seasoned internationals in every position, while Manchester United, Chelsea and Arsenal – plus maybe Spurs and Liverpool – can match them. How will Villa cope?
There’s no doubt money is tight. The BBC reported on 7th April that Lerner had removed our chief financial officer, Mike Keenan, and later appointed Paul Faulkner as Chief Executive Officer – a post vacant for a couple of years. This took place as Villa announced a loss of £30.1 million to May 2009 on turnover of £84.2 million, mostly due to a wages bill of £70.6 million. While most Villa fans are not interested in what happens off the pitch, these moves will have a big impact on what players we have.
The Daily Telegraph reported on 6th March that Villa would be banned from Europe under the new UEFA Financial Fair Play rules if we didn’t balance the books. Perhaps Randy is running out of money. But even if he isn’t, Villa cannot run a loss of this size and play in Europe. The obvious implication is that we must cut the wages bill. It’s not surprising that six high earners have been told they can leave. But in fact Villa cannot get big money for current players unless they sell the crown jewels – notably James Milner.
Who will the Villa have this season?
We looked short of players last season even without transfers out; most of games were played by a pool of 12 key men. We have only one keeper who has played in the Premier League, just three conventional forwards and if Beye, Luke Young and Shorey go, have only Cuellar and Warnock as full backs. Cuellar is not a regular full back, and Beye might come back into favour. In central defence, if Curtis Davies goes – and would we get anywhere near the £9 million we paid for him? – cover might have to come from Ciran Clark, and whether he gets a squad number will be interesting.
Midfield will be light if Sidwell leaves, with Delph out until December. Martin may have no choice but to name the youngster and hope he recovers from injury quickly. He also has little choice but to name all three goalkeepers, though only Friedel has Premier League experience. In the forward line, while few will regret the release of Marlon Harewood, this leaves three natural forwards of whom Heskey rarely scores. We need one more, so perhaps Robbie Keane will finally arrive.
Young players will have to be named and given a chance, if only from the bench. Albrighton and Delfouneso had squad numbers last season without starting any league games. Reo Coker may have to stay, possibly not happy. Will Osbourne and Guzan get games? Can any of the fringe youngsters get into the squad? Lichaj and Bannan are highly spoke of. Martin may have to name players who have never played in the Premier League in his 25.
Lerner put up an estimated £82.5 million to boost the squad but cash flow didn’t improve, partly because we didn’t perform in Europe and never got into the money-spinning Champions League. This season we will have to cut the deficit. How this squares up with having 25 players fixed until Christmas at least will test Martin O’Neill’s skills to the limit.
Trevor Fisher.
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It's a shame that second article had to be nixed as well - the questions still remain and is the answer any clearer following the West Ham game? There's a lot more optimism now, for sure, but with Milner's future up in the air, the Ireland transfer turning into a bit of a saga and Robbie Keane dropping off the radar, we're all still in limbo a bit.
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Thanks for the praise, but Si and Stuart Griffin also helped to get everything sorted so thanks to them as well.
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:5E7GMrbCt2ci2M:http://images.hollywoodgrind.com:9000/images/2009/8/stewie-griffin-is-gay.jpg&t=1) :o ???
I do look like that naked!