Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: BannedUserIAT on August 11, 2010, 12:39:39 PM
-
For me, the "What are the odds on us going down" thread is moot. I don't for one second believe that a squad that MON misused into 6th place are relegation fodder just because he's gone. Quite the opposite in fact. But, let's hear what you have to say.
Now, let's work on two assumptions:
1. We're swapping Milner for Ireland and
2. We'll be bringing in a fairly average sort of manager - nothing like Pellegrini and nothing like Curbishley (or maybe we stick with MacDonald for a fair chunk of the season).
The squad's a good 'un.
The players should be reinvigorated given that they now have a fresh chance to prove themselves (and, by extension, prove MON wrong).
So, where are we going to finish?
-
As it stands we'll do well to finish 8th. The worst possible pre-season, the prospect of more players leaving, we're yet to address the goal scoring issue and a manger who will have to get to know his players very very quickly.
-
I still can't see us coming lower than 8th, despite the so called "turmoil". I think we'll pip Spurs or Everton and finish 7th.
-
I still can't see us coming lower than 8th, despite the so called "turmoil". I think we'll pip Spurs or Everton and finish 7th.
[Danny Baker]The "University of Turmoil" ?[/Danny Baker]
-
I put 8th, but I am feeling very pessimistic about everything.
A new manager, if he plays his cards right and is the right man to do it, could be a breath of fresh air and revitalise the whole club.
I also think Ireland, if he signs, could be much better than Milner for us. Both's reputations are based on one fantastic season each, last season being a right off for Ireland due to injury/not fitting in with Mancini.
What worries me long term is that Randy, despite his statement, has decided to reign in on his spending, which is fair enough, it's his money!
-
Somewhere between 8th and 12th.
I think I could managed our Milner-less squad to around there. We won't be relegated unless Randy makes a MONUMENTAL f**k up when it comes to MON's replacement.
-
We've lost Milner's engine but look like getting Ireland's craft. Over the season these should cancel each other out. The problem.....always a Villa problem is the amount of goals we score. We needed to strengthen this department, haven't and now we need to hope Carew stays fit, Gabby improves on last season and the Fonz makes the breakthrough. If all this happened then we could be on course for a challenge for the top 4 again.
Realistically, 7th is about where we will finish up.
-
I have gone for 8th. This is presuming Milner's exit and Ireland's arrival. Lets hope some of our less motivated players, NRC ect take this opportunity to try and regain regular places in the first team, there's nothing like competition to push standards.
-
I have opted for finishing 8th hopefully we can better that but that's were i think we will finish.
-
.....there's nothing like competition to push standards.
A certain bespectacled, unemployed Ulsterman disagrees.
-
.....there's nothing like competition to push standards.
A certain bespectacled, unemployed Ulsterman disagrees.
Frank Carson's out of work ? I did not know that !
-
With the right manager in place, and more focus on the January window, we'll finish 6th again. This current squad, Milner replaced by Ireland are still more than acapable of competing against every team in the PL. We won't be as consistent as the top 3 (Man U,Chelsea and Arsenal) but we won't be far off Man City and Spurs. We'll be in it with Everton until January, and then if money is made available to the new manager we can push on for 5th or 6th.
-
As I said elsewhere, the new manager may be able to use the squad better, pick players in their proper positions and have more than just a Plan A.
I can us finishing in or around same again. I chose 7th in the poll.
-
We've got a relatively easy start to the season. No "big 4" club to play until mid October. We should be off to a flyer but I don't expect that to happen if we havent got a new manager settled in by then.
9th - and we'll be looking back with dewey eyes at the good old days when we used to be 6th
-
We've got a relatively easy start to the season. No "big 4" club to play until mid October. We should be off to a flyer but I don't expect that to happen if we havent got a new manager settled in by then.
9th - and we'll be looking back with dewey eyes at the good old days when we used to be 6th
Maybe we will, but we should remember that it was the ex manager who left us stuck in the mud going into the season and not the people who have invested hundreds of millions in the club....
-
you're entitled to your opinion
-
i was expecting 8th - 10th with MON in charge. that hasn't changed.
-
I have voted 8th, however my view is likely to change depending on what manager comes in.
-
Exactly the same place I thought before: 7th. Potentially better but deeply unlikely to be below say 8th.
We have a good squad of highly paid, reasonably good players that was assembled by the previous incumbent that should muster that.
-
you're entitled to your opinion
As are you and I respect it and the truth is we just won't know until the season's end!
-
Nothing said by Lerner indicates we will be striving for an upper place in PL for many years to come. Back to the tried and tested Doug Ellis vision of mundanity. Four to five years of not a lot with effort expended only to prevent the threat of relegation.
Given the economic scenario there will be little inclination to spend more than the club is earning. There is no surplus abramovich oil wealth here to subsidise losses. It is a strict and ruthless business arrangement for the interim.
So unless something shocking occurs it looks like appointemnt of a yes-man with disposal of the good players and replacement with journeymen to get us over the problem period.
It is after all how much the fans bring in through the turnstiles and general marketing something that is not going to increase soon!
All this stuff about the club is bigger than the man indicates we'll be back up there again in years to come but will just be into survival for the time being. Anything above a mid-table finish is to be grateful for...then miracles have been known to occur.
Ron Saunders might have something to say on the matter?
-
I felt this season was gonna be a two way battle with ourselves and Everton for 7th spot. I still think that's the case, though the advantage is firmly with the Toffees now.
I just think our squad is still a lot better than any of those below the top 8. Even losing Milner, we've got plenty of matchwinning quality left, and promising youngsters. I would expect us to get around the 60 point region, though if anything, slightly less. I don't however believe any of the bottom 12 will get close to that mark.
It just depends how the players take to Kevin Mac, or any potential new manager. If someone comes in changing things round completely in terms of playing style, we may initially struggle. So who knows.
With Martin I didn't expect the likes of Fulham, Blackburn or the Sty to be on our heels, but now they'll be closer. But I still think we've more than enough quality to keep them at arms length.
We'll see anyhow. I'm not expecting much to excite us in the league. We're way off pushing for the top 4 because everyone in the top 6 is stronger, or still too strong, while we've taken a kicking in the last couple of days and weren't in great nick anyhow. Hopefully a good Euro run or domestic cup run again can give us something of interest. The league is gonna be fucking dull. Fighting it out with Everton for a best of the rest spot doesn't exactly give me a chubby.
-
8th, which is what i expected with MON. Get this season out of the way and sort out the mess Martin left us in then we can look at cracking that top 4 or more realistically, go for a cup.
-
I went for 8th with with MON as manager.. Im going for 6thnow.. A RB at RB , more creativity in midfield and some of the youngsters getting a go instead of the same 11 favourite players , subs being used to change the tatics of the team...
-
I'm going for a suprisingly entertaining 7th. A season of breath catching and introducing new/younger players and then on to much better things the season after.
-
6th is still a realistic taget.
-
I think we'll have a good start to the season to be honest. MacDonald must scare the shite out of the players, he certainly does me.
I think we'll then settle down when the new manager comes in and I'm expecting between 8th and 10th at the end of the season*
*All this does, of course, depend on who the new manager is and what players we lose and gain.
-
7th, we are a very solid side, and a new manager may bring about fresh ideas going forward.
-
Despite his limitations O'Neill did leave us with a fairly solid and reasonably talented squad. I don't see why people think we might be in relegation trouble just because a good but not brilliant manager has left, and Milner will probably go. If utilised properly I don't see any reason why we shouldn't do just as well as I expected under O'Neill, around 7th or 8th, or better. Unless a complete fuckwit of a coach is brought in.
Brian Taylor, do you think this season would have seen us any more likely to push on when O'Neill's idea of taking us to the next level was apparently signing McGeady at whatever cost? I certainly didn't think so.
-
An underused squad was good enough for 6th. So a wisely used squad is good enough for that too.
-
Still pride of the midlands...6th
-
I always say 8th in these polls so, 7th.
-
KT..perhaps? Milner going concerned me more than McGeady being brought in.
I did not see the McGeady deal in same light as yourself. Now seems we have neither player nor the manager.
We must see who is appointed. GT was heavily criticised but he gave us some good players through the Youth scheme.
If we were to lose Gabby now that would be a blow.
I have watched the Villa for so long now and the highs are thin given the reputation of the club. I suspect I have a few more years to wait for the great years to return.
I have a sense trepidation bourne out of deja vu. At you say with MON we had some sort of consistency. I know I would be dreaming now to think we can exceed the aspirations of the top 4-5 teams given their funding. Money buys talent these days and MON was short there.
I just don't see McGeady at any price solely as being the reason for departure. If he turns out to be a major talent maybe the price would've been cheap. MON was never a spendthrift compared with other managers. He was certainly aggrieved at a lack of funds forthcoming from the sale of Milner. There has to be a lot more here than meets the eye.
MON is gone now an that is that. We will see who follows. I still have the view that AV will be middling to average over next couple of years until economy improves..I hope I am proved wrong and talent will out.
It takes a long time to sort a team..Ferguson was on the way out years ago. Success expected so quickly now only money can provide instant results. I don't think MON was given enough time to prove his theories. US soccer has not taken off in the way expected nad the economy is in big trouble. I diverge, but having been to China recently you'd think there were only 2-3 teams in UK. 700m catchment is what all about. That is where the money is. US problems explain the curtailing fo MON's ambitions.
Profit is paramount and we both know with players wages/costs it is difficult to strike a balance so the moolah must come from somewhere and that follows success.
Lerner is a repro of DE and Doug is in there backing him; and I do not recall many good times ever being associated with his reign. MON will go on somewhere an start again. He is undoubtedly a great talent and needs nurturing. I wonder if this farrago occured earlier in year would he be at Liverpool now?
Moneymen run the game now and the MON's are just cut down to size to fit in with the books.
I fully expect Lerner to put in a bid for Mesut Izil to replace Milner..a Brazilian or two and..naah. Villa will go on as they have forever but they will need that magic element of economic improvement or extra funds coming from somewhere to boost expectations.
McGeady would have kept the Irish contingent happy and they are a worldwide phenomenon..I can understand MON's thinking.
I don't run the club..I am just a long term supporter.
-
http://www.sportinglife.com/football/scottishpremier/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/10/08/11/SOCCER_Celtic_Nightlead.html
"I get the impression Aiden was holding off to see if he could get a club in England.
"But with the size of the transfer fee, I don't think there would be a team in England who would be interested in paying that for Aiden McGeady.
"The way I look at it is he (O'Neill) wanted to sign Aiden McGeady and I don't think Villa wanted to go above the £5million limit.
"Aiden has got to go to Moscow and prove himself.
"If you don't do the business, there is nobody interested in you.
Tommy Gemmell quote...
Celtic get £9.5m and he gets £40k a week.
It follows that MON had a £5m limit then. £40k a week wages? What would they have to pay Gabby?
They put MON in an invidious position.
How many potential Premier League players are there available for £5m?
I can see RL doing deals for strikers like DE did with Ginola and Juan Pablo..
Who picks the players now?
If that turns out to be the case I wonder where we will be..
Meanwhile Milner comes on at Wembley and combined with efforts of A. Young and Barry, Gerrard goes on to score twice. The game is turned round..
I rest my case..commentator says Milner is on way to Man Citeh..great!!
-
mid-table i reckon. team needs to rebuilt and rubbish has to be sold and morale repaired. 9th
-
Despite his limitations O'Neill did leave us with a fairly solid and reasonably talented squad. I don't see why people think we might be in relegation trouble just because a good but not brilliant manager has left, and Milner will probably go. If utilised properly I don't see any reason why we shouldn't do just as well as I expected under O'Neill, around 7th or 8th, or better. Unless a complete fuckwit of a coach is brought in.
Brian Taylor, do you think this season would have seen us any more likely to push on when O'Neill's idea of taking us to the next level was apparently signing McGeady at whatever cost? I certainly didn't think so.
Nail on head for me.
-
http://www.sportinglife.com/football/scottishpremier/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/10/08/11/SOCCER_Celtic_Nightlead.html
"I get the impression Aiden was holding off to see if he could get a club in England.
"But with the size of the transfer fee, I don't think there would be a team in England who would be interested in paying that for Aiden McGeady.
"The way I look at it is he (O'Neill) wanted to sign Aiden McGeady and I don't think Villa wanted to go above the £5million limit.
"Aiden has got to go to Moscow and prove himself.
"If you don't do the business, there is nobody interested in you.
Tommy Gemmell quote...
Celtic get £9.5m and he gets £40k a week.
It follows that MON had a £5m limit then. £40k a week wages? What would they have to pay Gabby?
They put MON in an invidious position.
How many potential Premier League players are there available for £5m?
I can see RL doing deals for strikers like DE did with Ginola and Juan Pablo..
Who picks the players now?
If that turns out to be the case I wonder where we will be..
Meanwhile Milner comes on at Wembley and combined with efforts of A. Young and Barry, Gerrard goes on to score twice. The game is turned round..
I rest my case..commentator says Milner is on way to Man Citeh..great!!
Do you want me to get the razor blades out for you?
Any more than £5m for Mcgeady would be ridiculous. 40k a week for Mcgeady is outrageous. If MON wanted to exceed that no wonder he was told to do one. Where has there been any suggestion that RL is picking the transfers? The result tonight had very little to do with Barry, Milner and Young and was done to two moments of sheers class from Gerrard. Please save yourself a heart attack, it really is not that bad.
-
Top half with a manager who can use the season to get to know his players and clear out the dead wood in January and the Summer.
Friedel and Carew's contracts are expiring.
He should have money from the Milner deal to reinvest.
An average season beckons but the futures bright.
-
I also query what on earth some Celtic player from forty years ago knows about what is going on at our club. Admittedly, he played with MoN at Forest for a bit which may mean he is pushing a certain story or agenda on behalf of someone. Though I doubt MoN would enlist some random team mate to do so in a PA article that will only be of interest to Celtic fans.
It's a bit like asking Brian Little what is going on inside the Celtic dressing room.
-
Brian Ive just picked out a few points from your lengthy reply.
MON will go on somewhere an start again. He is undoubtedly a great talent and needs nurturing. I wonder if this farrago occured earlier in year would he be at Liverpool now?
O'Neill needs nurturing? You are aware he is 58 or 59 years old aren't you? Any more nurturing and he'll be at retirement age. If Liverpool were interested I think they would have made an approach. Personally I think they knew he actually isn't as good as some would have us believe.
Moneymen run the game now and the MON's are just cut down to size to fit in with the books.
And the money men would be quite right to put the long term economic viability of the club first, especially after having seen so much investment not put to best use by the manager.
McGeady would have kept the Irish contingent happy and they are a worldwide phenomenon..I can understand MON's thinking.
I don't run the club..I am just a long term supporter.
So you think it's a good idea to base a transfer policy on keeping our, probably relatively limited, Irish fan base happy. As opposed to signing players that are better than what we already have. That's frankly quite bizarre.
-
Bizarre? Villa used to field half the Irish national time..back in the day.
It was a way of guaranteeing attendance amongst the ex-Pats in Brum and more recently their Anglo-Irish offspring. Now we field a good proportion of the National team. Times change.
I know little or nothing about McGeady and he like MON has gone the way of all things as far as Villa is concerned. I hoped he was as good as I thought MON was.
I was trying flippantly, perhaps, to take something positive from this sad affair. As for £5m limitation on spending then we are going to have to get someone from a new territory like the USA who wants to get into the PL.
My point on nurturing is it takes a long time to achieve success. Buying players at £5m a pop there ain't much hope. McGeady may have been an act of desperation as even at £9.5m it is not Premier League stuff..£40k a wk excepted. (I wish him well on the latter and hope his is worth it or he'll find out about the other side of Russian hospitality). I still believe it is more losing Milner than gaining McGeady.
We have/had half a team and that quality showed in the game at Wembley. Man City will take another another soon and who replaces him? I hope Lerner has the magic formula to restore morale and winning ways.
MON left and that looks a brave thing to do currently. RL left him no alternative.
You need years to develop a team and we got half way..6th place is just not good enough these days. I wonder how many 'Star' players will be there next season if they do not get fellow players of similar quality?
It is a difficult job without the financial lubricant that runs the transfer market.
MON has gone and that is that..for me the AVFC PR machine has some selling to do..
The new incumbent has a hard task ahead and some harsh critics to face.
I wish whom ever it be all the best.
How long will they give him to produce the goods? I can see the negative time factors here..and I want to be positive..
-
6th, its what we do.
-
I voted for 8th. I think if we have a good season we could finish 2 places higher, a bad season, 2 places lower.
Either way, I think we can already can this a transitional season. If the new guy hits the ground running - great, if not, we'll (hopefully) be better prepared next time around.
-
Christ, so much of it. But:
MON left and that looks a brave thing to do currently.
Brave?
I can think of many words to describe his actions, but that's not one of them.
Plus if McGeady really was worth throwing his job away over he really has taken full leave of his senses.
The bloke wasn't even getting into the Celtic side at one stage last year, and Liam Lawrence (available for about £2.5 million this summer) regularly outperforms him in the Irish set-up. £9.5 million is crack prices (or more likely some creative Ruski tax dodge), and fair fcuks to our board for not having the outright stupidity to match that.
We have Ash, Downing and Albrighton for the wide slots. Ireland looks to be on the way, so that's another creative outlet. Just because the board were only prepared to sanction £5 million on McDoughnut doesn't mean they won't stump up the cash for a good player.
They went above and beyond the call of duty letting MON spend that much on him quite frankly.
-
Oh well that is that..yesterday's news.
How can you succeed when 6th is acceptable to the board? It is back to the good ol days where DE was happy to survive in the PL.
So he resigned before he was pushed!?
He was rubbish and the replacement will be even better than John Gregory!
There is something dodgy about the McGeady Russian deal ..too right.
We'll remain 6th without a source of good players who can be sourced for £5m or less and are happy with significantly less than current PL pay rates. Chinese, Yanks, Turkish? Even Turks get well paid these days.
At least MON has retained his self-respect and personal reputation.
and he is brave to go...with his legal background I am sure he could sue for constructive dismissal.
No more eh? He is gone and the next guy has a hard job to do improving on what MON achieved. Steering clear of 'unknown' players from former clubs will be a start.
So 6th it is then..if we have a following wind!
-
At least MON has retained his self-respect and personal reputation.
and he is brave to go...with his legal background I am sure he could sue for constructive dismissal.
Hello Martin, did you enjoy your lie in this week?
Where is this assumption coming from that we'll only go for players with a value of £5 million or less?
*Stan Petrov----------£6 million rising to £8 million
*Ashley Young--------£9.5 million
*Nigel Reo Coker-----£7.5 million
*Curtis Davies--------£8 million
*Carlos Cuellar-------£8 million
*James Milner---------£12 million
*Stewart Downing---£12 million
*Stephen Warnock---£7 million
Please tell me you haven't just based that on the reported amount we were prepared to pay for McGeady. Please tell me you aren't using that as both the benchmark for all our future transfer dealings and a stick with which to beat the board.
After substantial backing our gutless turd of a manager decided to bail this week. When faced with the indignity of having to operate within similar conditions as most of his peers. Boo hoo fucking hoo.
I'd suggest you direct your ire at a more suitable and far more deserving target.
-
Is Brian Ron Futcher's Taylor's gloomier older brother?
-
As for £5m limitation on spending then we are going to have to get someone from a new territory like the USA who wants to get into the PL.
I don't see why you keep mentioning this £5m limitation. I don't for the life of me believe that Randy has put an upper limit of £5m for the buying of any player. I can though believe he might have put that sort of limit on McGeady, a player who will not improve the team and is not worth anything like £10m.
-
Bizarre? Villa used to field half the Irish national time..back in the day.
It was a way of guaranteeing attendance amongst the ex-Pats in Brum and more recently their Anglo-Irish offspring.
So you think having Staunton, McGrath and co. significantly improved our attendances or fan base? Did signing Richard Dunne have that effect? I doubt it. I'm half Irish and my Brummie based Irish family and most of the other Brummie Irish I've met over the years are almost exclusively Man Yoo fans. I think your argument for signing McGeady is tenuous to say the least, notwithstanding the fact that he isn't actually very good.
[/quote]
-
I'll wait until we have a manager
-
MON has gone, I accept it.
Thanks for the list of expenditure. I am aware he spent more than £5m on players,,thanks. His limit seems to have been set in this last case. For what he spent and still not a great deal compared to the 'Top 4' outlay he only got to 6th place and that is just not good enough in today's game.
As I've said there is no external subsidy from rich Russians Thais Arabs or whoever. The books have to balance and that means selling quality players for more than he paid. Sell and be obliged to replace them for lesser amounts. OK he feels he cannot do the Larrson again. He brought Carew for peanuts and he has paid back brilliantly.
Obviously he hoped he could do similarly with McGeady. We will never know now. i too am suspicious regarding hios choice of Moscow. he went for the money; more money than we had on offer.
Maybe MON should have arranged a pre-season friendly against Lourdes? .
As for the Irish factor ManU stole that formula starting with Georgie Best when every talented young Irish player wanted to follow in his footsteps. Birmingham's demographics have chnaged and so have their loyalties it seems.
When you choose your team it is for life. My da was a villa fan and saw them at their absolute peak. As kids at school everyone wanted to play for the villa side..no other team featured.
In my supporting years I watched some seriously embarrassing shite and never complained. I felt elated when Tommy docherty came along to get us out of old Div 2 and we ended up in the 3rd playing Grimsby and Darlington. It took a long while to recover from that but I/We did.
I hope we do again. The new boy has a hard job. MON did as good as he could and 6th just ain't good enough. Developing players to sell on at a profit did not sit well with him.
Player loyalty is dubious these days..Money doesn't necessarily buy talent Man city proved that. You need years to develop a good team but money is the magnet now..
Lerner cut off the money and looks like wants to sell best players to balance books.
That was that MON had no alternative but to resign..6th is just not good enough.
I wonder where Man U would be if they dumped Fergie in his lacklustre period. Different times. Now they have the Irish contingent and the Chinese and just about any other country you care to mention. Aston Villa have to come back and conquer new territories..Starting with home ground. "The longest journey starts with the first step."
I hope Lerner has some secret funds coming out of 32Red.. Maybe Irish Americans will rally and adopt us as their team? maybe? Have we major talents in the Youth programme. unless we bring in loads of money soon we will continue to function as nursery for better off clubs.
Who'd be a manager? Bring in a Hughes surrogate give him £100m and get nowhere.
Bradley and the new lend lease..eh?
MON has been quiet. I wonder what he will say/do once the new man is appointed? I only want success. There is a far bigger argument here.
-
By the end of his fourth season Fergie had managed a 2nd place finish (in his second year) and an FA Cup victory (in 1989/90). That's where that comparison falls down.
A degree of success might have insulated MON from some of the criticism he receives around here (we'll never know, because he didn't achieve it), but the wage bill would still have needed to be addressed without CL revenue, and with the upcoming UEFA regulations.
£40+k on L.Young, £40+ k on Beye and playing Cuellar in their place is just fucking lunacy at any level, before we even get into some of the other more crackpot deals.
We've also spent more than United, Arsenal and Liverpool since he has been here so it is genuinely hard to make any legitimate argument that he wasn't backed substantially.
-
By the end of his fourth season Fergie had managed a 2nd place finish (in his second year) and an FA Cup victory (in 1989/90). That's where that comparison falls down.
A degree of success might have insulated MON from some of the criticism he receives around here (we'll never know, because he didn't achieve it), but the wage bill would still have needed to be addressed without CL revenue, and with the upcoming UEFA regulations.
£40+k on L.Young, £40+ k on Beye and playing Cuellar in their place is just fucking lunacy at any level, before we even get into some of the other more crackpot deals.
We've also spent more than United, Arsenal and Liverpool since he has been here so it is genuinely hard to make any legitimate argument that he wasn't backed substantially.
The only things you can judge him on are 6th, 6th, 6th and final plus semi. All the rest is subjective. For the money we spent he did as well as could have been expected but not quite as well as could have been hoped for.
-
Accountants should pick the team. Serendipity is a lost art.
6th is not good enough.
He's gone. I have gotten used to it!
He did his best. Lots more have done worse.
If Ashley stays then it suggests they must have a plan.
Here's to the next cycle...whoever may be riding it.
I must admit buying Heskey shocked me.