Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: john robsons sideburns on August 03, 2010, 12:37:12 PM
-
With the big non event that has been the Transfer Window so far it has prompted me to think (always a dangerous thing)........
Would you prefer Villa to spend another £10-20million on the pretty good players that have been mentioned (Keane, Mcgeady, Ireland etc etc etc..) that whilst talented, are clearly not good enough for Champions League football, and have us finish in the same position as the past couple of years, ie..5th, 6th
OR
Would you prefer us to keep the money this year and give the young lads, the likes of Albrighton, Lichaj, Clark, Bannan, Delfouneso, Weimann etc.. their chance and blend them with the existing squad and in all probability see us finish arounf 8-10th?
I seriously think that I would rather the latter, I think I'd get a much more excited feeling by seeing the youngsters come through and prove themselves at Premier League level, and see if they can then improve further in future years than I would seeing the likes of Keane and Ireland look like world beaters one minute, then inconsistently useless the next.
What's the general consensus?
-
FYI; it has already been discussed here. (http://www.heroesandvillains.info/discuss/viewtopic.php?t=39434)
But a I'm not rude: I'd be happy with the young'n's, tbh. Build the squad size and get a better team overall.
-
Good question, but I feel that the reliance of youth would mean that the money we would lose for lower league placings could swallow up that cash, especially after a few years.
Plus the reliance on youth requires that we have exceptional talent at that level across a few players. I don't think that is the case
-
The latter without question.
The future of this club is its academy and what comes through it. As it should be.
In this way and probably only this way, we'll compete.
Have a nose at the article on the OS today regarding the youth players being called up to England. It reinforces this point somehwat.
-
Yeah, give the kids a chance - for a start it means the crowd will not get on their backs as they have no big fee to justify, for another it means we can let some of the other fringe players go and get the wage bill down.
-
What if it meant the Blose finishing above us?? They have strengthened there team and have a half decent manager. Would everyone be able to put up with the piss taking we would get? I want a blend of youth and signings. Allbrighton looks ready, as does Delph (when fit) and Delfuenso. Maybe Clark too. Bannon and Licaj I am not so sure of.
-
The latter without question.
The future of this club is its academy and what comes through it. As it should be.
In this way and probably only this way, we'll compete.
Have a nose at the article on the OS today regarding the youth players being called up to England. It reinforces this point somehwat.
It's obviously a more "ethical" route to take, but I'm afraid that I strongly disagree that it'll enable us to compete.
-
The latter without question.
The future of this club is its academy and what comes through it. As it should be.
In this way and probably only this way, we'll compete.
Have a nose at the article on the OS today regarding the youth players being called up to England. It reinforces this point somehwat.
It's obviously a more "ethical" route to take, but I'm afraid that I strongly disagree that it'll enable us to compete.
Eventually, when all the billionaires have gone to play round somebody elses end (and they will), all that will be left is what a club can produce itself.
We will, in my opinion, live off our excellent academy which we have thrown so many resources behind. All our scouting is centred around it, we have arguably the best facilities in the country, some very good youth coaches. Even the players that dont make it will be sold for a fair amount at times meaning more revenue.
There isnt any rule saying we have to buy from abroad or other clubs. Yes, its likely we'll occasionally have to but we can build very successful sides around who comes through the academy as Man Utd did. I dont see any reason why we cant do the same.
But it will take a lot of patience and time.
-
Go with the Youth. Next season - as you say - could see us finishing 10th, but if one or two establish themselves then the following year we could spend £20m on one player rather than trying to spread it across three.
Arguably we could be spending £40m as this season's spending would be negligable.
In addition the ones that don't make it would probably see their value increase just because they've played 20 games.
I really like the idea.
-
You'll never win anything with kids.
-
Well said Maidstone but it worked for old red nose
didnt it
-
If we sacrifice league position to play the kids then we're going to find it almost impossible to keep players like Gabby and Ashley Young.
The youngsters should get an opportunity if they are good enough to be playing in a side with top 4 ambitions, to do that they need to make the most of the chances they will be given in cup games.
-
I would certainly give youth a chance that is the future way to go.
-
The latter without question.
The future of this club is its academy and what comes through it. As it should be.
In this way and probably only this way, we'll compete.
Have a nose at the article on the OS today regarding the youth players being called up to England. It reinforces this point somehwat.
It's obviously a more "ethical" route to take, but I'm afraid that I strongly disagree that it'll enable us to compete.
Eventually, when all the billionaires have gone to play round somebody elses end (and they will), all that will be left is what a club can produce itself.
We will, in my opinion, live off our excellent academy which we have thrown so many resources behind. All our scouting is centred around it, we have arguably the best facilities in the country, some very good youth coaches. Even the players that dont make it will be sold for a fair amount at times meaning more revenue.
There isnt any rule saying we have to buy from abroad or other clubs. Yes, its likely we'll occasionally have to but we can build very successful sides around who comes through the academy as Man Utd did. I dont see any reason why we cant do the same.
But it will take a lot of patience and time.
Goes to show what a visionary old Dougie was then!
-
First way for me please, if the kids are good enough, ala Gabby, they will breakthrough anyway. A few years ago we gave the kids a chance, Whittingham, Davis, gardner, Cahill, Ridgewell etc, they did ok but I didn't find it particularly exciting.
-
Sounds more like a choice between compete and give up.
-
I don't think it's too absolutes.
You play the kids if they're good enough and you buy the best players you can. The trick becomes when to not sign a player for a certain position as the youth coming through is as good as anything you can get in the market.
-
The latter without question.
The future of this club is its academy and what comes through it. As it should be.
In this way and probably only this way, we'll compete.
Have a nose at the article on the OS today regarding the youth players being called up to England. It reinforces this point somehwat.
It's obviously a more "ethical" route to take, but I'm afraid that I strongly disagree that it'll enable us to compete.
Eventually, when all the billionaires have gone to play round somebody elses end (and they will), all that will be left is what a club can produce itself.
We will, in my opinion, live off our excellent academy which we have thrown so many resources behind. All our scouting is centred around it, we have arguably the best facilities in the country, some very good youth coaches. Even the players that dont make it will be sold for a fair amount at times meaning more revenue.
There isnt any rule saying we have to buy from abroad or other clubs. Yes, its likely we'll occasionally have to but we can build very successful sides around who comes through the academy as Man Utd did. I dont see any reason why we cant do the same.
But it will take a lot of patience and time.
I'd like to think you are right Mazrim, but I've said many times we've produced some great youth teams over the years but never once brought a player through who went on to be an absolute top notch star*, while the likes of Liverpool, Man Yoo, and West Ham have brought several through over the years. What convinces you it will be different in the future?
Personally I think we should strike a balance between bringing in a couple of good experienced players and giving da yoot a decent run - i.e. a bit of rotation here and there. I would certainly hope to see a lot more of Albrighton, Delf and Delph this season, and maybe this Weimar deserves a go.
*Gary Shaw could have been, if only.
-
Have a nose at the article on the OS today regarding the youth players being called up to England. It reinforces this point somehwat.
Our youth players are always awesome. Winning youth cups, breaking records, starring in the England youth sides, maybe even looking like the next big thing when they break through. Then they try to make the step up, and turn out to be shit.
It's nice to see them called up for England, but for every Gabby, we have a few dozen future world beaters that turn out to be Peter Whittingham or Darius Vassell.
-
Have a nose at the article on the OS today regarding the youth players being called up to England. It reinforces this point somehwat.
Our youth players are always awesome. Winning youth cups, breaking records, starring in the England youth sides, maybe even looking like the next big thing when they break through. Then they try to make the step up, and turn out to be shit.
It's nice to see them called up for England, but for every Gabby, we have a few dozen future world beaters that turn out to be Peter Whittingham or Darius Vassell.
That is why relying on your home grown products to any great degree is a road to nowhere.
We've got one of the best youth policies around, and how many players go on to have long, successful careers with us?
-
Even going further than just long successful careers with us, how many players have come through our youth system and had long and successful careers, at a similar or higher level than Villa? I genuinely can't think of any that have done better than being relegation fodder or reserves at mid table clubs.
Arguably still a successful career for their bank balance, but hardly a triumph for our youth system.
Is Vassell the most successful in the last 15 years (I'm ruling our Gabby at this point, he'll be a success, but he's still only 23)? It's a depressing thought.
Gary Cahill, the Moores, Davis, Rob Edwards, it's enough to make you wonder why we've bothered. Oh and Ridgewell and Hendrie, they were pretty good!
-
I think it is more sensible to strike a balance between the two. So, still sell those deemed surplus to requirements, such as Sidwell, Shorey, Luke Young, Beye, Heskey, Milner Thus saving 10 million in wages over the next 12 months, and making 8 million or so in fees.
Then where possible replace with youth, so Lichaz becomes back up for Cuellar, Albrighton is the reserve winger for Young and Downing and comes in when needed.
But still sign a couple of players that will improve the creativity of the side, such as Ireland in exchange for Milner and Keane to offer a different option up front.
-
*Gary Shaw could have been, if only.
Brian Little? Gareth Barry?
-
*Gary Shaw could have been, if only.
Brian Little? Gareth Barry?
Mark Walters.
-
Whilst we probably deserve credit for making Barry the player he is, it's a bit of a joke to claim he's a player who came through our youth setup.
He joined us aged 17 after being England under 18 captain, and we paid over a million in compensation for him. Hardly a rough diamond we found in our youth academy. May as well claim Hitzlsperger is one of ours. Sure he technically played in our academy..but come on.
-
He joined us aged 17 after being England under 18 captain, and we paid over a million in compensation for him.
Delph was mentioned as one of the players who will hopefully make it good - if he can be listed then so can Barry.
And Barry joined us aged 15, not 17.
-
16 apparently. And a few months. Can we round it up to the next whole year please?
He's much more "ours" than Delph though. It's hard to make the distinction between a player with potential you sign at a young age, and a player you've brought through yourself, but we signed Delph when he was 19? For several million pounds? We can't seriously call him a product of our youth system, it's absurd.
-
I just would like to see the kids given a chance, to be brought on when the team is doing OK - not when we are struggling and the game needs turning.
-
If we sacrifice league position to play the kids then we're going to find it almost impossible to keep players like Gabby and Ashley Young.
The youngsters should get an opportunity if they are good enough to be playing in a side with top 4 ambitions, to do that they need to make the most of the chances they will be given in cup games.
Agreed. Athough it would be nice to have kids coming through regularly but it ended up relegating West Ham and Middlesbrough who relied upon it. Man U was a freak. Almost a whole team of top internationals/very good Prem players is a definite one-off and is why they are where they atre noe as much as anything.
-
You have to judge each young player on his merits.
Play the kids is an oft heard cry when things aren't going so well. But the danger is (a) they just flat out might not be good enough or (b) they are good enough , but throwing them in too early or during a difficult period at the club might set them back.
I'd be keen to give Albrighton an extended run this year. Not just the odd sub appearance, but a run of 5-10 games against a mix of opposition. To suss out if we have another Mark McWalters on our hands or another Dave Farrell.
I'd also like to see Clark feature a bit more, looked comfortable v Fulham last year and a leftfooted CB would give us better balance.
Delfouneso has been in and around the first team picture for two years now, and hopefully that progression will continue. Though it seems to be a slow steady one with him rather than an immediate impact. No bad thing, when he's ready he's ready. He has the frame and touch to be a really decent CF.
After that I'd tread cautiously, I wouldn't be throwing young players into the starting XI just for the sake of it.
-
First way for me please, if the kids are good enough, ala Gabby, they will breakthrough anyway. A few years ago we gave the kids a chance, Whittingham, Davis, gardner, Cahill, Ridgewell etc, they did ok but I didn't find it particularly exciting.
We sold those players for something like £15m which will have heavily subsidised further signings. Not the mention the games those players contributed in.
For me the Youth don't have to "make it", being competent and filling squad positions is fine. It'll provide turnover through sales and crucially means we have to buy less squad fillers meaning that the "buys" can be fewer but of better quality.
Hopefully the marquee signings will be sufficient to convince gabby/young etc that the club is going places and ambitious.
-
The days of bringing players all the way through from schoolboy have gone to some extent. It still happens but the success rate is very low.
Ethically it may be wrong but top PL clubs are raiding other lesser clubs for top 16/17/18 year olds with the mortality rate being lower. We are starting to do this more and looking further than Dover.
If we are ever to go to the next level we may have to be more ruthless as far as our youth policy is concerned.