Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Chris Harte on July 23, 2010, 10:21:26 AM
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/s/sheff_wed/8847626.stm
Sad to see such a famous old club in this sort of trouble.
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Very sad indeed :0(
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Not sad at all (except for their own fans), clubs need to stop living beyond their means, if they owe that sort of money to the IR, how much do they owe to people and businesses who can less afford to not be paid?
I'll bet they still have players on stupid wages.
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Very very said I was born in Sheffield and all my family support either Wednesday or United the way it should be, none of this Glory Hunting.
I moved to Brum when I was very young which I'm grateful for otherwise I wouldn't have supported the Villa.
Although I love Football it is making me feel a bit sick with all this money being thrown around and our woeful display in South Africa and I feel sorry for real clubs struggling.
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It's a sad time when the people who run the club let themselves get into this mess they should not live beyond there means.
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Not sad at all (except for their own fans), clubs need to stop living beyond their means, if they owe that sort of money to the IR, how much do they owe to people and businesses who can less afford to not be paid?
I'll bet they still have players on stupid wages.
I love the sympathy its hardly like Wednesday were throwing Money around people make mistakes the whole world runs on credit and unfortunately things go wrong its not always a case of greedy owners like at Man united.
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Would have been Champions league in what seems like just a few seasons ago to gentlemen of a certain age...
1 Leeds United 42 13 8 0 38 13 9 8 4 36 24 74 37 +37 82
2 Manchester United 42 12 7 2 34 13 9 8 4 29 20 63 33 +30 78
3 Sheffield Wednesday 42 13 5 3 39 24 8 7 6 23 25 62 49 +13 75
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they should not live beyond there means.
that includes us, without Randy's cash injections of £40m per year we would be in serious trouble
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Would have been Champions league in what seems like just a few seasons ago to gentlemen of a certain age...
1 Leeds United 42 13 8 0 38 13 9 8 4 36 24 74 37 +37 82
2 Manchester United 42 12 7 2 34 13 9 8 4 29 20 63 33 +30 78
3 Sheffield Wednesday 42 13 5 3 39 24 8 7 6 23 25 62 49 +13 75
Blimey - I'm guessing that's as recent as 1992.
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Very sad in my book - with what is ahead economy wise, I fear this will become more and more common and may just wake football up to the reality of living in a bubble far removed from any sort of reality when it comes to running a business..
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I love the sympathy its hardly like Wednesday were throwing Money around people make mistakes the whole world runs on credit and unfortunately things go wrong its not always a case of greedy owners like at Man united.
They are heavily in debt, got relegated so will probably get lower gates yet up to last week were still signing players from Championship and Scottish Premiership sides.
As in all cases where clubs go bust I have loads of sympathy for the fans, but it's not like Wednesday will disappear, they will go into administration, have their debts wiped out in the process and still be playing albeit with a ten point deduction.
Personally I think all clubs who pay out money they haven't got on wages to players should be automatically relegated two divisions if they then have their debts wiped out by going into administration. Basically it's a form of cheating, clubs who ARE paying the bills probably can't afford players on high wages and are at a disadvantage.
By the way, Villa aren't in any trouble (I don't think!), Randy may have pumped in loads of cash but it's in the form of loans from his trust, so even if he left today as long as we can service those loans and pay all our other bills we wouldn't go bust.
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Shame - they always come across as the Villa of Sheffield.
United have no interest in playing football and never had. The fact that the animal Morgan is still there (and possibly captain) says all you need to know about them.
I can just about remember Sheffield Wednesday being one of the better teams in the country, getting to the League & FA Cup final in the same year.
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Shit happens.
They've been in no-mans land for a very long time now.
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Shame to see this happening, at least if pompey went we might see the back of the leper with the bell. Hillsborough is a classic style english ground, I have fond memories from back in 97 seeing a certain Mr Greedy Barry making his debut there.
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I love the sympathy its hardly like Wednesday were throwing Money around people make mistakes the whole world runs on credit and unfortunately things go wrong its not always a case of greedy owners like at Man united.
They are heavily in debt, got relegated so will probably get lower gates yet up to last week were still signing players from Championship and Scottish Premiership sides.
As in all cases where clubs go bust I have loads of sympathy for the fans, but it's not like Wednesday will disappear, they will go into administration, have their debts wiped out in the process and still be playing albeit with a ten point deduction.
Personally I think all clubs who pay out money they haven't got on wages to players should be automatically relegated two divisions if they then have their debts wiped out by going into administration. Basically it's a form of cheating, clubs who ARE paying the bills probably can't afford players on high wages and are at a disadvantage.
By the way, Villa aren't in any trouble (I don't think!), Randy may have pumped in loads of cash but it's in the form of loans from his trust, so even if he left today as long as we can service those loans and pay all our other bills we wouldn't go bust.
Sad for their supporters though, and sad that English football has become more of a business than a sport.
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and sad that English football has become more of a business than a sport.
Its is always strange that message. Clubs were being wound up due to lack of money in the early 1900's weren't they. We almost went in the 60's. It is uncommon but not a recent thing.
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and sad that English football has become more of a business than a sport.
Its is always strange that message. Clubs were being wound up due to lack of money in the early 1900's weren't they. We almost went in the 60's. It is uncommon but not a recent thing.
back in the very early days we used to play benefit games to keep afloat the likes the West Brom and Small Heath. The club knew the importance even then of keeping clubs afloat.
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Why all the sympathy for Wednesday?
They are in exactly the same situation as Leeds and Portsmouth before them, who basically got laughed at on here, i.e. they have overspent and now might need a spell in administration to straighten themselves out.
They aren't disappearing, Hillsborough will still be there for you to visit if it takes your fancy, their fans will still have a club to support if they are big enough fans to carry on supporting them in lower divisions and with crapper players!
The main point in this is that if it happened more often and to bigger clubs and then finally football in general might come to it's fucking senses - doubt it though.
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You won't find much sympathy from me. I don't like them at all.
I can't remember his exact words but when their relegation battle came down to the last day and he said that Palace deserved to go down because they entered administration. That is a rather stupid comment as if Palace hadn't entered administration they wouldn't have been anywhere near the relegation battle.
And now to compound this they have not paid their taxes and other debts much like Palace did. Far from feeling sympathy I'm laughing my head off.
Now I admit if it was the other way round and Palace were in this situation I might be a little more sympathetic. There are clubs I like and clubs I don't.
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Just noticed this. The irony is delicious. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/crystal_palace/8850376.stm)
Crystal Palace set to exit administration
Crystal Palace are on the verge of coming out of administration.
The deadline to appeal against Palace's Company Voluntary Agreement passed at 1600 BST with none of the club's creditors making an objection.
That means Steve Parish's CPFC 2010 consortium can apply for a transfer of Palace's Football League share and take full control of the club.
"This is now the beginning of the end of the rescue of Crystal Palace," said administrator Brendan Guilfoyle.
"I would like to say a special thank you to Steve Parish," added Guilfoyle.
"Without his determination and tenacity it would not have been possible to resolve the many difficulties that arose during such complex and lengthy negotiations."
Palace fell into administration in January and were automatically docked 10 points, with the club's place in the Championship only being secured on the last day of the season with a 2-2 draw at Sheffield Wednesday.
Palace were one of a number of clubs that went into administration last season, most notably Portsmouth - the first Premier League club to suffer that fate.
A number of English teams are in financial difficulties as Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs adopts a tougher stance on unpaid tax bills, with Sheffield Wednesday becoming the latest club to be served with a winding-up order by HMRC on Friday.
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If it hadn't been for SGT the 1st rebuilding the club from the bottom up, I think this could easily have been us.
Small mercies and all that.
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If the Sheiks hadn't come to City it could have been them after the trouble with Shinawatra.
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That band and Dave Richards, a chairman who made Doug seem nice.
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That band and Dave Richards, a chairman who made Doug seem nice.
And worringly in positions of power in English football.
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That band and Dave Richards, a chairman who made Doug seem nice.
And worringly in positions of power in English football.
Read David Conn's The Football Business for full details of how he made a small fortune from Wednesday, ran them into the ground and ended up chair of the Premier League.
This is a precis:
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/david-conn-wednesday-a-fading-force-while-richards-power-grows-589747.html
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That band and Dave Richards, a chairman who made Doug seem nice.
Doug was/is nice. He just overstayed by a few years.
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and sad that English football has become more of a business than a sport.
Its is always strange that message. Clubs were being wound up due to lack of money in the early 1900's weren't they. We almost went in the 60's. It is uncommon but not a recent thing.
Different context altogether though. Huge amounts of TV money and sponsorship wasn't being handed out to the priveliged at the top of the tree back then. The rich have got richer and the poor have got poorer...
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Would have been Champions league in what seems like just a few seasons ago to gentlemen of a certain age...
1 Leeds United 42 13 8 0 38 13 9 8 4 36 24 74 37 +37 82
2 Manchester United 42 12 7 2 34 13 9 8 4 29 20 63 33 +30 78
3 Sheffield Wednesday 42 13 5 3 39 24 8 7 6 23 25 62 49 +13 75
1992. That was the last season before the premier league.
Also they got 75 points from 42 games, thats pro rata 67/68 points on a 38 game season. Such is the widening gap, that is becoming an increasingly unlikely points tally to achieve 3rd place or even top four.
Remember the good old days, win at home and draw away and that would probably win the league
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Would have been Champions league in what seems like just a few seasons ago to gentlemen of a certain age...
1 Leeds United 42 13 8 0 38 13 9 8 4 36 24 74 37 +37 82
2 Manchester United 42 12 7 2 34 13 9 8 4 29 20 63 33 +30 78
3 Sheffield Wednesday 42 13 5 3 39 24 8 7 6 23 25 62 49 +13 75
That season was probably the first I can remember really being into football though I'd followed it on and off for a few years before. I watched Leeds demolish Sheffield Wednesday 6-1 on The Big Match (not unlike them demolishing Villa a couple of months before) and it was one of the most exciting things I'd ever seen. Until they went down I'd always had Wednesday down as a big club on the strength of that season.
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I always remember the fact that their kop and the Holte had very similar capacities in the early 80s.
I think the one at Wolves was slightly bigger than the Holte, then Wednesday's was slightly smaller.
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I often used to wonder why they kept the name Hillsborough after 1989. I now get the tradition aspect and the fact that the name has no bearing of the events of the FA Cup semi, but the first thing that springs to mind even now when I hear Hillsborough is the tragedy, not the home of Wednesday.
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Most seasons the FA cup semi-finals would be at Villa and Wednesday.
As stadiums went during the 60s/70s, Hillsborough really was modern looking and impressive even more so when perhaps the only time during a season it was packed to capacity for a semi final.
If we were told that a few years later there would be a tragedy on such a scale and where would we think it was going to happen, very few would have thought Hillsborough.
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They are heavily in debt, got relegated so will probably get lower gates yet up to last week were still signing players from Championship and Scottish Premiership sides.
Personally I think all clubs who pay out money they haven't got on wages to players should be automatically relegated two divisions if they then have their debts wiped out by going into administration. Basically it's a form of cheating, clubs who ARE paying the bills probably can't afford players on high wages and are at a disadvantage.
Crikey what a black and white world you live in obviously you have never struggled for money and must be loaded to have such an opinion.
I think before you pass judgement on teams you really need to involved in the situation before saying that they deliberatly cheated.
Everyone of us lives beyond our means im not saying its right but thats the way it is perhaps Wednesday bought these so called big players hoping to get back to the premiership to get the big sky money to balence the books ?
Im glad you dont run the Villa as if we got in trouble instead of trying to put it right you would have us drop into the blue square league so we werent accused of "cheating"
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I worked in Sheffield in the early nineties and our season ticket books were printed up there. A bloke had a cardboard box full of them in the boot of his car one day and was trying to shift them for ten quid each. Having already bought mine for about a ton I told him to jog on................I was principled back then, God what I'd give for a box of ten pound season ticket now :-(
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Crikey what a black and white world you live in obviously you have never struggled for money and must be loaded to have such an opinion.
I have struggled for money for many years in my life, but my personal finances, or anyone else's for that matter, have bugger all to do with the running of football clubs.
I think before you pass judgement on teams you really need to involved in the situation before saying that they deliberatly cheated.
If they paid money for players they could not afford then they gained an advantage over clubs who were paying their bills and had to budget for lower wages. The FA agrees with me on this, hence the points deductions for teams that go into administration. I think the punishment should be harsher. Leeds, Southampton and Rotherham have all shown recently that ten points can be easily overcome when all of your debts have been wiped out and you can go back to paying high wages again.
Everyone of us lives beyond our means im not saying its right but thats the way it is perhaps Wednesday bought these so called big players hoping to get back to the premiership to get the big sky money to balence the books ?
So the best way to get out of debt is to gamble by going into even more debt? If you were £1000 in debt would you borrow another £1000 and go to the casino? Maybe you would!
Im glad you dont run the Villa as if we got in trouble instead of trying to put it right you would have us drop into the blue square league so we werent accused of "cheating"
No, I would cut the wage budget, offload expensive players, you know, cut costs, that sort of thing.
Or I would borrow cash from my multi-million pound trust like what Randy does!
I would hope that whoever owns Villa would never allow us to spiral into a Portsmouth or Leeds type scenario, but if they did then yes, I would accept that we deserved whatever punishment came our way, one things for sure, the way out of debt is not to keep borrowing more and more in the hope of a future windfall, that goes for individuals AND football clubs.
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Crikey what a black and white world you live in obviously you have never struggled for money and must be loaded to have such an opinion.
I have struggled for money for many years in my life, but my personal finances, or anyone else's for that matter, have bugger all to do with the running of football clubs.
Obviously other peoples fininaces are the point thats why were talking about wednesday being in trouble
I think before you pass judgement on teams you really need to involved in the situation before saying that they deliberatly cheated.
If they paid money for players they could not afford then they gained an advantage over clubs who were paying their bills and had to budget for lower wages. The FA agrees with me on this, hence the points deductions for teams that go into administration. I think the punishment should be harsher. Leeds, Southampton and Rotherham have all shown recently that ten points can be easily overcome when all of your debts have been wiped out and you can go back to paying high wages again.
how do you know at the time they couldnt afford the players a bit like myself having a loanor a mortgage but getting made redundant and not being able to afford it. i agree their has to be a point deduction but dont say that every club deliberately does it on purpose
Everyone of us lives beyond our means im not saying its right but thats the way it is perhaps Wednesday bought these so called big players hoping to get back to the premiership to get the big sky money to balence the books ?
So the best way to get out of debt is to gamble by going into even more debt? If you were £1000 in debt would you borrow another £1000 and go to the casino? Maybe you would!
no were not talking about me getting out of debt were talking about an entertainment industry thats trying supply entertainment for fans i would hardly compare buying players to going to the casino and gambling your money away. every purchase is a risk but your black and white logic is one extreme or another.
Im glad you dont run the Villa as if we got in trouble instead of trying to put it right you would have us drop into the blue square league so we werent accused of "cheating"
No, I would cut the wage budget, offload expensive players, you know, cut costs, that sort of thing.
Or I would borrow cash from my multi-million pound trust like what Randy does!
I would hope that whoever owns Villa would never allow us to spiral into a Portsmouth or Leeds type scenario, but if they did then yes, I would accept that we deserved whatever punishment came our way, one things for sure, the way out of debt is not to keep borrowing more and more in the hope of a future windfall, that goes for individuals AND football clubs.
once again your talking about an extreme scenerio you cant compare the money Leeds and Portsmouth spent to Wednesday.
No the best way to get out of debt is not to keep borrowing but everybody has too borrow some money. its all or nothing with your comments their is a middle ground and in a perfect world it would all be smooth like your suggestions but that is never ever going to happen.
Were going to have agree to disagree on this, I feel sorry for Wednesday you dont but people make mistakes and maybe the people in charge had the their best interests at heart but it went wrong.
What i hate more than this is Teams like Man city ruining the game and i best go and tell my family to go and support rotherham and not cheating wednesday.
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once again your talking about an extreme scenerio you cant compare the money Leeds and Portsmouth spent to Wednesday.
In the context that they spent money they haven't got and now cannot afford to pay the bills, yes I can.
You are seeing this from the viewpoint of someone who has some emotional attachment via your family, step back and see what's happening. They are a big, professional club who employ hundreds of staff, including I assume, accountants. Any business that owes HMRC over half a million quid will be in serious danger of administration, football clubs shouldn't be any different.
I say again, if they owe HMRC this much, how much do they owe to probably dozens of local businesses who supply them with all sorts and can't afford to be owed money?
I also say again that I, as always, have every sympathy with the fans, they have no real say in who is running their club badly, but their anger should be directed at the owners, other clubs in their league last season, with much lower fanbases, have managed to stay in the Championship and pay the bills.
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Bored now as im sure everyone else is, nothing to see lets move on
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A bit surprised at all the sympathy, after all the £550K owed to HMRC is effectively owed to all of us as taxpayers, and it is pleasing that HMRC is now taking a harder line on overdue PAYE/NIC and quarterly VAT taking account of the present level of national debt.
I'm even more surprised that SWFC's bankers, Co-Op, have expressed 'disappointment' at HMRC's stance; this is rather unprofessional, but probably par for the course for the bank that has been mug enough to take on the banking arrangements for the majority of professional football clubs in England.
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once again your talking about an extreme scenerio you cant compare the money Leeds and Portsmouth spent to Wednesday.
You can because their problems started a decade or so ago when they were paying ridiculous wages to the likes of Carbone & di Canio. That landed them into debt and a perilous situation they've never been able to throw off.
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once again your talking about an extreme scenerio you cant compare the money Leeds and Portsmouth spent to Wednesday.
You can because their problems started a decade or so ago when they were paying ridiculous wages to the likes of Carbone & di Canio. That landed them into debt and a perilous situation they've never been able to throw off.
Sadly true.
It is though they thought that, based on past glories, they would somehow get wafted back to their rightful position in the scheme of things if they just spent some wedge.
Some people, including the often exulted Nigel Kennedy, give praise to HDE for our avoiding this fate.
What say you, Dee Dubya?
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Bored now as im sure everyone else is, nothing to see lets move on
I win, I win, ha ha ha ha!!!
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Sadly true.
It is though they thought that, based on past glories, they would somehow get wafted back to their rightful position in the scheme of things if they just spent some wedge.
Some people, including the often exulted Nigel Kennedy, give praise to HDE for our avoiding this fate.
What say you, Dee Dubya?
I honestly don't know. I think clubs got on some great merry-go-round of spending ever-increasing sums in order to stay where they were and were unable to stop spending because they'd fall off.
I always said throughout the footballing boom years of the period 1996-2002 that we should spend more and gamble. Then you look at the clubs who spent money they didn't have - Leeds, Wednesday, Forest, Coventry to name a few - and wonder if Doug wasn't right all along.
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Sadly true.
It is though they thought that, based on past glories, they would somehow get wafted back to their rightful position in the scheme of things if they just spent some wedge.
Some people, including the often exulted Nigel Kennedy, give praise to HDE for our avoiding this fate.
What say you, Dee Dubya?
I honestly don't know. I think clubs got on some great merry-go-round of spending ever-increasing sums in order to stay where they were and were unable to stop spending because they'd fall off.
I always said throughout the footballing boom years of the period 1996-2002 that we should spend more and gamble. Then you look at the clubs who spent money they didn't have - Leeds, Wednesday, Forest, Coventry to name a few - and wonder if Doug wasn't right all along.
I wonder as well, and I was among his most vitriolic critics.
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I wonder as well, and I was among his most vitriolic critics.
Ain't hindsight grand? But I also wonder how many more Balabans we could have afforded before we were in trouble.
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I wonder as well, and I was among his most vitriolic critics.
Ain't hindsight grand? But I also wonder how many more Balabans we could have afforded before we were in trouble.
That reminds me of a TV interview at an away game after JG's attack on him.
He said that JG had been "economical with the truth", and he intoned sadly that Balapan(sic), who cost 6 million, was sitting in the stands.
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once again your talking about an extreme scenerio you cant compare the money Leeds and Portsmouth spent to Wednesday.
You can because their problems started a decade or so ago when they were paying ridiculous wages to the likes of Carbone & di Canio. That landed them into debt and a perilous situation they've never been able to throw off.
how much were they paying them out of interest?
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once again your talking about an extreme scenerio you cant compare the money Leeds and Portsmouth spent to Wednesday.
You can because their problems started a decade or so ago when they were paying ridiculous wages to the likes of Carbone & di Canio. That landed them into debt and a perilous situation they've never been able to throw off.
how much were they paying them out of interest?
I would guess it was around £20-25k a week, which was massive money then.
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Because of there lack of success these debts have caught up on them. Sad for fans ......