Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on July 18, 2010, 07:17:42 PM
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On tonight at 9pm BBC2. I know the Clough family were not keen on it, and theres obviously some artistic licence taken with accuracy. But I think its a great performance from Michael Sheen as Cloughy, and Timothy Spall as Peter Taylor.
Good entertainment and gives you a feel of what football used to be like.
Theres a documentary about old big `ead afterwards.
I suggest you sit down and watch both programmes young man !
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Thanks mate. I'll probably watch the film. Is the documentary new, or the same one they've already shown a couple of times?
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I think it's new as we've had to subtitle it from scratch.
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It is a really enjoyable film to be fair.... not sure over how accurate it actually is but Sheen is excellent as Clough.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00t61h7
I think the documentary after is new, although of course the nature of such a programme means there will be plenty you have seen before.
The BBC links mentions contributions from MON, I wonder if he will mention about being left out a European Cup Final. It must still rankle.
From Wikipedia:-
In an interview with (Pat) Murphy, Martin O'Neill stated that he had noticed an obvious error:The film implies that Dave Mackay was still a Derby County player when Clough resigned as Derby manager in 1973. In fact, Mackay had left Derby in 1971 to become player-manager of Swindon Town, and later manager of Nottingham Forest. O'Neill's quote however is debatable as the film clearly states that Mackay was signed in 1968 by Derby County, and also has Clough yearn in 1973 that he gave Mackay two years as a player, clearly insinuating that Mackay had been released at least three years prior to his appointment as manager.
O'Neill also questioned the portrayal of the relationship between Clough and Peter Taylor. He praised the performance of the actors, however, particularly that of Michael Sheen as Clough.
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The Damned United, both film and book, are decent fictionalised biopics, if you want a real "warts and all" portrayal of Clough I'd recommend Provided You Don't Kiss Me.
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read a few of david peaces books where he takes a story that actually happened and inserts a story into the thread which is totally fictional! I am not sure yet after 5 books whether this is real clever or a bit of a cop out. Watch the film but do not treat it as gospel, i cannot imagine cloughie getting on his knees to anyone!
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Awesome film, just awesome.
seemed to get it all spot on, though obviously some of it will have been made up for entertainment purposes.
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Watched this about a year ago, fantastic movie. Think its a bit soon to watch it again though as it's still pretty fresh in my memory. Will definitely watch the documentary afterwards though.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/7951484.stm
MON reviews the film here.
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Good film and mon is involved in the clough documentary afterwards.
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I'm really looking forward to this, I never got chance to go the cinema too watch it.
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Awesome film, just awesome.
seemed to get it all spot on, though obviously some of it will have been made up for entertainment purposes.
Pat Murphy who does reporting on both football and cricket on 5 live did an after dinner speech for our cricket club and from his discussions with the Clough family and his own relationship it was a far way off from being spot on! There is a lot of fiction in this book and a higher percentage within the film! Some great performances from Sheen and Spall, some shit ones ie stephen graham, who cannot get rid of his stupid scouse drawl no matter who he plays, and an entertaining film non the less!
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Strange, I saw the DVD of this in HMV the other day. Was going to pick it up. Still think I will, won't have time to watch the film tonight, what with it being the middle of the exam-marking season :(
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Agree dave.,provided you don't kiss me was a cracking book about clough but I preferred his autobiography in which as always the great man was very frank in his views!
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00t61h7
I think the documentary after is new, although of course the nature of such a programme means there will be plenty you have seen before.
The BBC links mentions contributions from MON, I wonder if he will mention about being left out a European Cup Final. It must still rankle.
From Wikipedia:-
In an interview with (Pat) Murphy, Martin O'Neill stated that he had noticed an obvious error:The film implies that Dave Mackay was still a Derby County player when Clough resigned as Derby manager in 1973. In fact, Mackay had left Derby in 1971 to become player-manager of Swindon Town, and later manager of Nottingham Forest. O'Neill's quote however is debatable as the film clearly states that Mackay was signed in 1968 by Derby County, and also has Clough yearn in 1973 that he gave Mackay two years as a player, clearly insinuating that Mackay had been released at least three years prior to his appointment as manager.
O'Neill also questioned the portrayal of the relationship between Clough and Peter Taylor. He praised the performance of the actors, however, particularly that of Michael Sheen as Clough.
What?! is he bleedin' Barry Norman now?
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Fantastic movie and the finest football film ever.
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Fantastic movie and the finest football film ever.
I wouldn't say it's the finest football film ever, but it is in the top one.
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Never seen this before.
I think it's been brilliant so far. Thoroughly enjoyed it.
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It's an age old tale of good against evil, as Clough see's it anyway.
It also shows the enormous East Stand at Elland Road. Built in the 90's.
Great film though.
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It's an age old tale of good against evil, as Clough see's it anyway.
It also shows the enormous East Stand at Elland Road. Built in the 90's.
Great film though.
Yeah I picked up on that too. Also, shows 'Brighton Pier' which has only been the name of the Palace Pier since circa 2000. Still, minor quibbles.
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I wouldn't say it's the finest football film ever, but it is in the top one.
Bravo!
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Really enjoyed that.
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OMG!
And look who's popped up on this Cloughie documentary just started on BBC2?
*scream*
He's so swoony!!!
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The other documentary was on ITV a couple of times.
Really good film. Liked it when Clough went on his knees and apologised to Taylor!
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I'm sure there's a bit of artistic licence used there but a great film and Sheen is brilliant.
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There were a few howlers - security camera at the baseball ground and a modern packet of crisps but I thouroughly enjoyed it.
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There were a few howlers - security camera at the baseball ground and a modern packet of crisps but I thouroughly enjoyed it.
Have you ever seen Withnail and I? One of my favourite films, but surely the worst film ever for historical howlers.
A decent portion of it is spent travelling by car along the M25. In 1969.
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There were a few howlers - security camera at the baseball ground and a modern packet of crisps but I thouroughly enjoyed it.
And a shot of the 'new' stand at Leeds when Clough was stood in the tunnel when of course that side of the ground never looked like that at all. Fond memories of our visits there post 1975, as that is where they used to put the away fans in the 70s, down that side of the pitch
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read a few of david peaces books where he takes a story that actually happened and inserts a story into the thread which is totally fictional! I am not sure yet after 5 books whether this is real clever or a bit of a cop out. Watch the film but do not treat it as gospel, i cannot imagine cloughie getting on his knees to anyone!
Nor were Leeds ever quite as dirty as is portrayed though they could dish it out on occasions. They also played some superb football, which is never remembered and particularly since The Damned United surfaced. On their day, Giles, Eddie Gray, Lorimer, Jones, Madeley and Clarke were sublime...
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The documentary was excellent.
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read a few of david peaces books where he takes a story that actually happened and inserts a story into the thread which is totally fictional! I am not sure yet after 5 books whether this is real clever or a bit of a cop out. Watch the film but do not treat it as gospel, i cannot imagine cloughie getting on his knees to anyone!
Nor were Leeds ever quite as dirty as is portrayed though they could dish it out on occasions. They also played some superb football, which is never remembered and particularly since The Damned United surfaced. On their day, Giles, Eddie Gray, Lorimer, Jones, Madeley and Clarke were sublime...
oh come on. half of them would play about 5 games a season between suspensions now. All teams of that era had their hard men, but leeds were full of them
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read a few of david peaces books where he takes a story that actually happened and inserts a story into the thread which is totally fictional! I am not sure yet after 5 books whether this is real clever or a bit of a cop out. Watch the film but do not treat it as gospel, i cannot imagine cloughie getting on his knees to anyone!
Nor were Leeds ever quite as dirty as is portrayed though they could dish it out on occasions. They also played some superb football, which is never remembered and particularly since The Damned United surfaced. On their day, Giles, Eddie Gray, Lorimer, Jones, Madeley and Clarke were sublime...
oh come on. half of them would play about 5 games a season between suspensions now. All teams of that era had their hard men, but leeds were full of them
They could dish it out but as Richard said they did play some superb football.
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It's easy to play good football when you've crocked the opposition's three best players and intimidated the other eight. Fuck Leeds. Scum then, scum now.
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Except for Simon Grayson, obviously...
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Dirrrrty Leeds!
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Nor were Leeds ever quite as dirty as is portrayed though they could dish it out on occasions.
Dish it out on occasions ? Probably about 42 occasions per season in the league.
Dirty Leeds !
Dirty Leeds and Lucky Arsenal !
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Excellent acting by Martin Sheen.
Not sure about Timothy Spall as Peter Tayor but a great film, Revie was a clever arsehole of a man, less emotional than Cloughie but far more sinsister.
Cloughie was in love with the beautiful game, that came through loud and clear.
Nice to see MON and John Roberston - appeared like together they want to emulate 'Clough and Taylor' .
'Take your hands out of your pockets young man' !
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Nor were Leeds ever quite as dirty as is portrayed though they could dish it out on occasions. They also played some superb football, which is never remembered and particularly since The Damned United surfaced. On their day, Giles, Eddie Gray, Lorimer, Jones, Madeley and Clarke were sublime...
Hear hear! Too often brushed under the carpet by the legions of Leeds haters.
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Nor were Leeds ever quite as dirty as is portrayed though they could dish it out on occasions. They also played some superb football, which is never remembered and particularly since The Damned United surfaced. On their day, Giles, Eddie Gray, Lorimer, Jones, Madeley and Clarke were sublime...
Hear hear! Too often brushed under the carpet by the legions of Leeds haters.
Exactly. My point is not to deny they weren't dirty on plenty of occasions but that this is all they are now remembered for, particularly since the Damned United. I lived up in Leeds through the early 70s and used to go a lot to Elland Road, as I was too young to travel down to the Villa and so had to follow them at a distance. I saw some of the best, free flowing football I have ever seen there. People very easily forget games like the European Cup Final at the Parc Des Princes where Leeds played Bayern off the park, only to be denied by one of the most incompetent refs ever to referee a major final.
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One of the worst inaccuracies was the tv appearance of Clough with Revie towards the end of the film.
It made believe that Revie ripped Cloughie a new arsehole.
Quite the opposite in reality.
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It also glossed over the time Clough spent at Brighton. The movie gives the impression that he got the job, went straight on holiday and then was tapped up by Leeds.
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It is a really enjoyable film to be fair.... not sure over how accurate it actually is but Sheen is excellent as Clough.
I watched this on my iPod on the way back from the States. Sheen is superb.
Did anyone see him in "30 Rock" recently ? He was great in that as well
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the Don Revie in the film looked more like Don Revie than Don Revie,
spooky
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the Don Revie in the film looked more like Don Revie than Don Revie,
spooky
That was Colm Meany. Truely amazing how much he looked like him as when you see him normally he looks nothing like Don Revie.
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the Don Revie in the film looked more like Don Revie than Don Revie,
spooky
That was Colm Meany. Truely amazing how much he looked like him as when you see him normally he looks nothing like Don Revie.
Great also in The Snapper and other films....
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I watched the film over Christmas so just switched over for the documentary last night.
It was very good and the interviews given were quite frank. Good to see MON and John Robertson appear in it.
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Was it the same documentary that was shown earlier this year? Or last year, even?
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Was it the same documentary that was shown earlier this year? Or last year, even?
I was getting a bit confused about this as well. But no, I think last night's one was new and the one you're thinking of was on ITV. Shown at around the time the film was released. MON and John Robertson weren't interviewed together for the ITV one. Inevitably though, the two documentaries covered a lot of similar ground.
I was really shocked to see the images of Cloughy in his final years. No wonder the drink killed him - he looked a terrible state.
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I was really shocked to see the images of Cloughy in his final years. No wonder the drink killed him - he looked a terrible state.
I didn't pay much attention to the documentary for this reason. I much preferred the film which depicted Cloughie in his prime.
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I have been lucky enough to have met a few of the Leeds team from the seventies as I did a bit of work with Paul Reaney around the time the film was first out.
The impression I got from them was Brian Clough was on a loser from the moment he took the job as Revie had created a solid unit who beleived in each other, Brian Clough was dismissive of what they had acheived together which was possibly the worst thing to do.
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Nor were Leeds ever quite as dirty as is portrayed though they could dish it out on occasions. They also played some superb football, which is never remembered and particularly since The Damned United surfaced. On their day, Giles, Eddie Gray, Lorimer, Jones, Madeley and Clarke were sublime...
True, but as I read it in Peace's book, the "dirty Leeds" tag was something that ate away at Clough, he didn't think they should be able to play like that and still win trophies, so much that he couldn't see past the fouls and the cheating. Therefore I think it was right to portray them as such in the film even if the truth was somewhat different.
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As I read it, the `Dirty Leeds' thing was largely happening inside Brian Clough's head. The book is the story of a man's mental disintegration more than anything.
Peace is very good at blurring the line between supposedly historical events and people's fears and fantasies, and creating drama from it. `Red Riding' is a stone cold masterpiece.
Leeds supporters shouldn't take it too personally, but I can see why they would and I can see why Clough's family would be unhappy too.
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Interesting in the documentary after the film when MON was talking about how Clough played him out of position.
MON went to see Clough to ask him could he play in his preferred position, and Clough basically told him, either he played in the position allocated to him or he would find himself on the sub's bench. MON said he never mentioned it again.
Draw your own conclusions, but i would say, that probably explains the falling out with NRC.
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Nor were Leeds ever quite as dirty as is portrayed though they could dish it out on occasions. They also played some superb football, which is never remembered and particularly since The Damned United surfaced. On their day, Giles, Eddie Gray, Lorimer, Jones, Madeley and Clarke were sublime...
True, but as I read it in Peace's book, the "dirty Leeds" tag was something that ate away at Clough, he didn't think they should be able to play like that and still win trophies, so much that he couldn't see past the fouls and the cheating. Therefore I think it was right to portray them as such in the film even if the truth was somewhat different.
That was my point really Dave - that in real life whilst no angels, they were not as bad as their portrayal in this film has led people to believe them to be. And of course, Clough never encouraged Gemmill, Burns, Larry Lloyd, Dave McKay or anyone else to play in the same way...
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They were a nasty side and Revie encouraged it. They could play some great football but it was always after they'd bullied the opposition physically in the first place. Norman Hunter was jus a thug, remember Jackie Charlton and his little black book of who he was going to do, Johnny Giles was a great player but a nasty fucker, Alan Clarke was all little off the ball digs and Bremner was the worst of the lot.
They fully earned their reputation, imo.
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They were a nasty side and Revie encouraged it. They could play some great football but it was always after they'd bullied the opposition physically in the first place. Norman Hunter was jus a thug, remember Jackie Charlton and his little black book of who he was going to do, Johnny Giles was a great player but a nasty fucker, Alan Clarke was all little off the ball digs and Bremner was the worst of the lot.
They fully earned their reputation, imo.
Which is exactly what Villa need in midfield at the moment
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They were a nasty side and Revie encouraged it. They could play some great football but it was always after they'd bullied the opposition physically in the first place. Norman Hunter was jus a thug, remember Jackie Charlton and his little black book of who he was going to do, Johnny Giles was a great player but a nasty fucker, Alan Clarke was all little off the ball digs and Bremner was the worst of the lot.
They fully earned their reputation, imo.
Which is exactly what Villa need in midfield at the moment
I'm know what you mean, but i'm not sure. I hate to think how many suspensions someone like Van Bommel would get if he played over here.
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They were a nasty side and Revie encouraged it. They could play some great football but it was always after they'd bullied the opposition physically in the first place. Norman Hunter was jus a thug, remember Jackie Charlton and his little black book of who he was going to do, Johnny Giles was a great player but a nasty fucker, Alan Clarke was all little off the ball digs and Bremner was the worst of the lot.
They fully earned their reputation, imo.
Which is exactly what Villa need in midfield at the moment
Maybe, except he'd not last 10 minutes if he tried to play like that these days.
Football was a much dirtier game in the 70s so they weren't alone but what made Leeds stand out was that they appeared to be so cynically premeditated about it.
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Nasty bunch of players , that could play though, remember them taking the piss out of Southampton with bAckheels etc, Leeds never won what they should have in the 70s and were too often the bridesmaids and runners up.
No doubt in today's game they would have struggled as a large part of there was game was intimadation and bullying the opposition- clough in hindsight should have never even thought about going there considering his views on them!
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They were a nasty side and Revie encouraged it. They could play some great football but it was always after they'd bullied the opposition physically in the first place. Norman Hunter was jus a thug, remember Jackie Charlton and his little black book of who he was going to do, Johnny Giles was a great player but a nasty fucker, Alan Clarke was all little off the ball digs and Bremner was the worst of the lot.
They fully earned their reputation, imo.
Which is exactly what Villa need in midfield at the moment
Maybe, except he'd not last 10 minutes if he tried to play like that these days.
Football was a much dirtier game in the 70s so they weren't alone but what made Leeds stand out was that they appeared to be so cynically premeditated about it.
You're right, our midfield needs a great player who's also a clever and devious nasty fucker.
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Theres a dearth of nasty fuckers now. How many can you name? I think the last two really nasty fuckers were Keane and Viera, who would have fitted in extremely well at Leeds in the 70's !!!
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Nor were Leeds ever quite as dirty as is portrayed though they could dish it out on occasions. They also played some superb football, which is never remembered and particularly since The Damned United surfaced. On their day, Giles, Eddie Gray, Lorimer, Jones, Madeley and Clarke were sublime...
True, but as I read it in Peace's book, the "dirty Leeds" tag was something that ate away at Clough, he didn't think they should be able to play like that and still win trophies, so much that he couldn't see past the fouls and the cheating. Therefore I think it was right to portray them as such in the film even if the truth was somewhat different.
That was my point really Dave - that in real life whilst no angels, they were not as bad as their portrayal in this film has led people to believe them to be.
And not as good either. The second thing people remember them for after being dirty bastards was that they didn’t win anywhere near as much as they could/should have done.
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They were a nasty side and Revie encouraged it. They could play some great football but it was always after they'd bullied the opposition physically in the first place. Norman Hunter was jus a thug, remember Jackie Charlton and his little black book of who he was going to do, Johnny Giles was a great player but a nasty fucker, Alan Clarke was all little off the ball digs and Bremner was the worst of the lot.
They fully earned their reputation, imo.
Which is exactly what Villa need in midfield at the moment
I think Fabian Delph could be the answer. Who did we sign him from again?
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They were a nasty side and Revie encouraged it. They could play some great football but it was always after they'd bullied the opposition physically in the first place. Norman Hunter was jus a thug, remember Jackie Charlton and his little black book of who he was going to do, Johnny Giles was a great player but a nasty fucker, Alan Clarke was all little off the ball digs and Bremner was the worst of the lot.
They fully earned their reputation, imo.
Which is exactly what Villa need in midfield at the moment
I think Fabian Delph could be the answer. Who did we sign him from again?
Have a guess...
It's not that hard.
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David batty he was a nasty wrong un. But i enjoyed watching the film give me clough over mourinho.
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They were a nasty side and Revie encouraged it. They could play some great football but it was always after they'd bullied the opposition physically in the first place. Norman Hunter was jus a thug, remember Jackie Charlton and his little black book of who he was going to do, Johnny Giles was a great player but a nasty fucker, Alan Clarke was all little off the ball digs and Bremner was the worst of the lot.
They fully earned their reputation, imo.
Which is exactly what Villa need in midfield at the moment
I think Fabian Delph could be the answer. Who did we sign him from again?
We need "nasty" not "reckless"
The closest we've had recently was Hitzelsperger during his "which superstar will Tommy kick today period" (ie before he started to try and play actual football)
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The second thing people remember them for after being dirty bastards was that they didn’t win anywhere near as much as they could/should have done.
Isn't that rumoured to be because of Revie's dodgy deals, match fixing etc?
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Nor were Leeds ever quite as dirty as is portrayed though they could dish it out on occasions. They also played some superb football, which is never remembered and particularly since The Damned United surfaced. On their day, Giles, Eddie Gray, Lorimer, Jones, Madeley and Clarke were sublime...
True, but as I read it in Peace's book, the "dirty Leeds" tag was something that ate away at Clough, he didn't think they should be able to play like that and still win trophies, so much that he couldn't see past the fouls and the cheating. Therefore I think it was right to portray them as such in the film even if the truth was somewhat different.
That was my point really Dave - that in real life whilst no angels, they were not as bad as their portrayal in this film has led people to believe them to be. And of course, Clough never encouraged Gemmill, Burns, Larry Lloyd, Dave McKay or anyone else to play in the same way...
We are broadly in agreement Richard, all I'm saying is that, in the context of the film and especially Clough's hatred of Revie, they had to be portrayed as dirty, cheating wankers.
You have to remember that this is a work of fiction based on true events, Peace never meant it to be some sort of biography.
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Interesting in the documentary after the film when MON was talking about how Clough played him out of position.
MON went to see Clough to ask him could he play in his preferred position, and Clough basically told him, either he played in the position allocated to him or he would find himself on the sub's bench. MON said he never mentioned it again.
Draw your own conclusions, but i would say, that probably explains the falling out with NRC.
The managers call is final and MON learnt that lesson. Maybe what has changed is the players, they think themselves above the manager and if NRC does not like it then move.
However maybe he would be on less money if he asked for a transfer, lose bonus's etc and would rather wait until his contract runs out than first team football.
Says all what is wrong with modern football.
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Liverpool in the 70's and 80's were dirty bastards, same as Man U in the 90's.
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I grew up well after the first Leeds imperial period under Revie but was always given to understand by my grandfather that Leeds were some of the most spiteful and dirty players ever seen on a football pitch. How much of that is sour grapes I don't know, but those of you who follow karma might see the fact they were cheated out of a European Cup as a just payment.
As far as the film goes, it's just brilliant. I read the book and obviously expected it to be a lot darker, but from what I've read about the making of it, they cut a lot of the darker material because it would sell better as a redemptive story of friendhsip rather than the bitter tale of a man losing his marbles in an impossible position of his own making. If anyone has the DVD and has seen those scenes, please enlighten us.
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I thought the book was truly excellent, and the film lived up to it, which is a rarity. As for "dirty fuckers that are clever" we should certainly look to some Dutchmen! Unlike most of the press that condoned their game in the final, I thought they tried to play to their strengths. And on another day, that game could have resulted in a Dutch win, beatinga much more skilful tema with tactics and toughness. Van Bommel is a master at pushing it as far as he can without taking the booking, very clever player
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Hadn't seen Tony Francis for a while, he hasn't changed at all !
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For anyone who missed it, it is now up on BBC iplayer..
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Just watched it on the I player - I enjoyed it and as a good sign you wanted it to last longer !
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Any Ron Saunders fan will confirm, Clough wasn't the best manager in the country - but he was in the top two.
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I didn't enjoy it to be honest. I think having read "Provided You Don't Kiss Me"* previously I was expecting a bit more from this film but it was just things we already knew.....I thought Sheen was brilliant in it though
*great book by the way, well worth a read
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Great film but really bad wigs!
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Hadn't seen Tony Francis for a while, he hasn't changed at all !
Same cant be said about Trevor ;-D
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Recounting this from memory so might not be word for word but: One revealing thing about that film was the attitudes that players, fans and even other managers had when it came to rival English clubs competing in Europe.
Bremner's Leeds had just practically kicked Cloughies side off the park and the ginger one turns around and says "Good luck on Wednesday, Brian."
Similarly, if you watch the tail end of the Villa-Bayern match in 1982 Cloughie clearly says "We've done em!"
Different times.
I attribute the shift to Tyldesley and co wittering on about 'That night in Barcelona' at every available opportunity.
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Bremner's Leeds had just practically kicked Cloughies side off the park and the ginger one turns around and says "Good luck on Wednesday, Brian."
I think that one was meant to be ironic/sarcastic.
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Bremner's Leeds had just practically kicked Cloughies side off the park and the ginger one turns around and says "Good luck on Wednesday, Brian."
I think that one was meant to be ironic/sarcastic.
Correct-It was also said by an actor,not by Billy Bremner.
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Liverpool in the 70's and 80's were dirty bastards, same as Man U in the 90's.
I was a bit too young to appreciate Leeds in full during that period but they were certainly able to play football when the need arose.
I think it was par for the course in those days & if we had Sky cameras all over the shop like we do today,I doubt many teams would be able to field 11 players,due to suspensions.
I have to admit,I find the clips of the violence quite amusing-Don't think the prawn sandwich brigade or the Yanks would be taken in by it though.
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Bremner's Leeds had just practically kicked Cloughies side off the park and the ginger one turns around and says "Good luck on Wednesday, Brian."
I think that one was meant to be ironic/sarcastic.
Correct-It was also said by an actor,not by Billy Bremner.
Yeah, I kinda gathered that.
But it did seem to capture the attitudes of the times, batter a rival into submission on (and quite often off) the pitch in domestic games, cheer them on in European matches.
Villa had widespread support from fans of other British clubs during our run in 1982, as did Forest previously.
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People within the game ie players,managers etc will always show support for English/British teams in Europe.
Fans have always been different-some support their rivals in Europe,some do not.The Birmingham City of Britain (Scotland & Wales) for example have never supported England or English teams whereas Scottish & Welsh managers have (at least on the outside) shown support for our teams.
I'm not so sure the average football supporter in 1982 was that bothered if we won in Rotterdam or not TBH.
We are however going off on tangents whilst posting about an excellent film.
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Great film, but hardly to be taken as fact. Martin Sheen is also something else with his ability to just become someone else, remarkable stuff.
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Recounting this from memory so might not be word for word but: One revealing thing about that film was the attitudes that players, fans and even other managers had when it came to rival English clubs competing in Europe.
Bremner's Leeds had just practically kicked Cloughies side off the park and the ginger one turns around and says "Good luck on Wednesday, Brian."
Similarly, if you watch the tail end of the Villa-Bayern match in 1982 Cloughie clearly says "We've done em!"
Different times.
His joy may well have been laced with the fact that it was ze Germans who we'd beaten. Or maybe he did have a soft spot for us and was forever waiting to be given the chance to manage the midlands biggest club.